Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on November 16, 2013, 02:56:18 AM
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I am so far fed up with the MK 108 cannon that if that K4 wasn't such a beautifully powerful fighter then it would probably be the only 109 I never fly. Several years of trying to learn how this gun shoots has gotten me no where. I see it as the most inaccurate, unreliable, useless gun ever put on a plane, ever! If I could remove it from my K4 to save on weight and just use the 13mm's, I would do so in a heartbeat.
Yet, there are people who are basically gods with this gun. They look at a plane, lob a few rounds at it, and it explodes. Those same experts have said to put convergence at 350, and that's what I've done and I still can not hit a thing with it! I remember the one thread someone posted where you line up your shots with the canopy frame, but I simply can't do that because: 1- I lack that kind of coordination and suck at it, and 2- I use TrackIR now and it's almost impossible to do it with TrackIR.
SO! Can you tater gods take a look at this film and tell me exactly how I suck? I get 4 perfect shots on this F4U, all my 13mm's hit, 30mm's.... no where to be found, possibly fazed right through the plane.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9434uuki4q55plx/tater+fails_0935.ahf
(Also, HTC why can't we attach film files in this section of the forums? Seems like a rather important section to have that for.)
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Obviously, you missed.
May I suggest a target the MK108 30mm was designed to engage?
(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/NkL-fUrc24M/hqdefault.jpg)
The 109G14 with 20mm would be the better choice for taking on fighters. It's rate of fire is faster and it's trajectory is flatter.
But I'm sure you already knew these things.
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I know people will tell you to bring the 30mm in close but I have mine set at 650.
I learned the guns flying the 190A-8 buff hunting where I wanted to open fire at distance and that made the transition to the single 30mm on the K-4 easy for me.
What I like about the longer convergence on the K-4 is that the lob off the nose really helps me in crossing, snap and lead pursuit shots.
Somewhere around here I posted a screen shot from a scenario where I tag a P-38 at 1000 yards with the 190's 30mm's. Perhaps try flying the A8, 152 or 262 for a while where you have a better chance of hitting to get used to the ballistics then move back over to the K-4 or 163 to put what you've learned to use.
Good luck. The gun's a one hit killer.
Oops.. forgot; 152 also only has a single.
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if you want to be good with the 30mm, never fire the 13mms at the same time.
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If I may answer a question with a question...how did you get such a sharp break turn out of your K4 last night? I was the guy in the FM2.
That said, I used to fly the K4 regularly some years ago, but the only thing that ever worked was practice and more practice with the tater gun. Shoot at drones from every angle, go to the TA and check the target map and see where your bullets are landing, use the LCS in offline mode, etc. Basically I just took all my shots at 200 or less, then once I was comfortable with that, I began experimenting with longer shots and crossing shots. After a while, I could just do it. You have to be willing to miss a *LOT* to get used to the gun. Don't use the 13mm's...they only mess you up. Fire rounds just to see where the shells go in combat. Lead LONG....way longer than you're used to.
That's pretty much all I got. Maybe I'll get back in that bird and give it another go myself.
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Also, based on the film, you're firing way too late for the taters. You need to fire when he's in the side or top window from your front view. If you fire a crossing shot when he's in your front view you will miss unless you're right on top of him. Experiment with that until you find your timing.
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The 109G14 with 20mm would be the better choice for taking on fighters. It's rate of fire is faster and it's trajectory is flatter.
I absolutely love the G14 because of the option to toss that crappy MK 108 out and put in the super lovely MG 151/20! I really should fly it more than I do.
if you want to be good with the 30mm, never fire the 13mms at the same time.
Why is that? I hear a few people say they do it because they want to see where their rounds are going, but that's with tracers on and I fly with tracers off. Does it really matter if I shoot with 13mms? Is there some hidden secret that the 13mms somehow affect the 30mms aim?
If I may answer a question with a question...how did you get such a sharp break turn out of your K4 last night? I was the guy in the FM2.
I think you're talking about when you pass under me from my left to right. What I did was pull up, dropped some flaps, chopped throttle to almost 0, and stood on my right rudder. The 109s are very good at just pulling right around this way, but it bleeds lots of E.
I hear lead is the biggest problem in the K4 all the time. In the film I am actually leading the plane more than I would normally be if I was in any other plane. The first shot for example he is inside 200 yards away from me. I pull enough lead that he disappears under my nose and my 13mm's hit around his canopy and left wing. Where did my 30mm's go? Even with 350 convergence did they just drop straight off under him? Did they just never reach the target? How much more lead am I suppose to pull on this cannon?
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I've known that I'm terrible with the 108 a thus wont shoot until I'm less than 300 with well set angles. Under 250 I've shot it much like the 109E's slower 20mms and found that they work ok for me. Also most of the times I fly the K4 is to shoot buffs and at this role one it was meant to preform its great.
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Latrobe,
I'm one of the worse shots in the game so I seldom comment on this topic but you said that you"hear" lead is the biggest problem with the K4. I would argue that the dispersion cone of the Mk108 30mm is the biggest problem.
IIRC Bustr told me the 30 mm has a dispersion of about 40ft at 400 yds or very close to that,so you could have the lead perfect but still miss your target because of dispersion.
If you want to get an idea of how much there is,us the dot target command offline with a ammo multi of 10x and just fire the 30mm at the target at 400 yds. You could use 500 and or 300 to compare to see the differences but it isn't until you pull the target in to around 150 yds that you will see a reasonable dispersion.
That being said I would try to setup crossing shots at close range,less than 200 yds and hope I have a good planform to aim at. I would tend to start to shoot as the enemy is starting to get behind the front cockpit bracing,trying to fire a 3 shot burst.
ymmv.
:salute
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I do know about the dispersion problem of the Mk 108, I should have added that as well. I've done the testing offline with the target, that's why I never shoot unless I'm inside 400 yards. I might push it a little if they're just inside or outside that range, but for the most part I pull the trigger only when I'm at risk of colliding with them.
Here's a screenshot from earlier today of how I typically shoot in the K4.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/tater_zpsca299d7a.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/tater_zpsca299d7a.png.html)
Little more info on this shot: I was cruising in at 387mph, the A8 was at 210. This is the exact moment I pulled the trigger, and I nearly flew into his tail I was so close. I even pushed down slightly on the stick in order to get a few more shots into his which is why I nearly rammed into him. I get 13mm hits from nose to tail and yet the 30mm still fails to connect. How much closer and I suppose to get!? How much more lead is require?
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30mm is the best gun in ah :D
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Seriously. Stop shooting with the 13mm's. You need to see where your taters are going before you can correct.
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Seriously. Stop shooting with the 13mm's. You need to see where your taters are going before you can correct.
But I don't fly with tracers on to begin with. :uhoh
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But I don't fly with tracers on to begin with. :uhoh
Recently started flying with the K4, and as Teacher told me (as I'm well aware that you know) "The 30mm on the K4 is akin to that of a child throwing a rock".
I normally don't fire it unless within 200 yards if going too fast. But I sort of have a nature feel for it at 300ish range. I would post screenies, but my computer throws a fit if I open aces high (says it isn't working :furious )
IIRC someone saying in one of the posts I read, "If you are shooting with your 303s you're missing with your 20mms (talking about spits)" From what I can tell, in your screenshot, I would say if you aimed slightly higher, you would've nailed either the nose or right under the pilot seat, depending on when it hit. Hard for me to explain without screenshots, for me it's a natural feel.
:salute
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But I don't fly with tracers on to begin with. :uhoh
Oh. :) Well, you might want to try turning tracers on and watching where the shells go. It might help give you a better idea of where to shoot.
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The difference between the 13 mm and tatter is not the drop of the bullets - it is the velocity. In deflection shots if the 13mm is 1.5 times faster it means you need to pull 1.5 times more lead with the 30mm. In tracking shots (while pulling G), the fire arch of the 30mm is MUCH more curved till you can fit an entire plane between the two streams of bullets.
The reason not to fire the 13mm is a psychological one. If you see hit strikes you will try to maintain them. In your mind this is a positive feedback even though for your purpose it is negative because it.means your tatter is off. In the mossie I find my gunnery is better if I do not fire the 303s. While the difference between 303 and hispanos is much smaller than in the case of the 109, it still is significant in tracking shots.
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I can't watch the films right now but I consider myself a good shot with Tators...
I personally like shooting the MGs with the 108 because at the range I shoot fighters at, the dispersion of the rounds doesn't effect it so much but does put you generally in the right spot following tracers.
Fact is with the tator you need to set up the shot because it is not forgivening at all. Look up Grizz's write up about how he set up Stator shots....probably best I've seen.
Best practice I can think of for learning the 108 is shooting single 30s at a time......that's a real challenge.
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aim high because the nose is lower than the gunsight, that's my only real advice. If you're shooting exactly at convergence then that is not a problem but we rarely get to shoot exactly at convergence. For closer than convergence shots aim high and keep the plane smooth, any jerking around and the rounds are going to go all over the place. Aim high!
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The difference between the 13 mm and tatter is not the drop of the bullets - it is the velocity.
To illustrate this: time vs distance of Mk 108 and MG 131:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/mg131vsmk108_zps996718c6.jpg)
(data taken from original test data)
At the time the MG 131 bullet has reached ~250m, the Mk 108 shell is still at ~200m
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I don't shoot the tater unless I'm within 200 yards.... get in close or scare them with the 13mm until you can get in close
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My philosophy on the 30mm is, always shoot unloaded. If you're pulling any significant G's with it, do not expect to hit. Unload, and put a stream where he's going to be. At first, don't be concerned too too much with with conserving ammo. Put out the burst, and get a feel for the timing for when it hits him. As you get a feel for the timing, you can shorten the burst up to conserve ammo. As mentioned, you need to lead people by 50% more than you do with your 13mm's.
The 30mm is at its best with a hard-turning opponent pulling across your nose 100m or less in front of you. Big target, you barely have to lead them. Close crossing shots are what you want to set up for if at all possible. The low velocity and dispersion make it a crapshoot beyond about 300m. Given the choice, I don't pull the trigger unless they're within about 100-150m.
Wiley.
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With Hitech updating the target command to (.target range heading azimuth), you can sit on the runway now and get a static detailed view of your dispersion patterns. I tested the K4 offline on the NE runway of NDisles at A1 for Mk108 dispersion at ranges from 100-600 at every 100 yards. 50 yards is included to show how quickly the MK108's dispersion increases with range. I'm using the azimuth to center the target to the gunsight at every range. I'm firing average 50 rounds to create a dispersion cloud. It appears there is a slight left hand density in the cloud. Rheinmetall-Borsig testing showed the projectile had a spin drift. Or maybe this is just coincidence unless HTC has the same document I do.
.target range(100-600) Heading(45) Azimuth(12.87-12.10)
Example: .target 100 45 12.45
Bf109 K4 MK108 30mm
Range----Dispersion----Azimuth
50yd-----2.5ftx1.8ft-----12.87
100yd------6ftx6ft-------12.45
200yd-----10ftx9ft.------12.25
300yd-----18ftx15ft-----12.15
400yd-----20ftx20ft-----12.12
500yd-----30ftx25.5ft---12.10
600yd-----36ftx27ft-----12.10
As you can see, the claims by talented tater shooters that the hardest shot for them is dead 6 at almost any range has some validity based on the dispersion values.
Ultimately it's not the drop, or time to target that makes hitting another fast moving fighter so hard in the game. It's the same problem 109 pilots had in the real war with the single MK108. The MK108 was designed to shoot down slow moving level bombers with 60-100ft wing spans. So the dispersion was not as much of a problem with all of the surface area to hit on bombers opposed to small, fast, maneuvering fighters.
For you 109 enthusiasts who like to keep things historic. Try this challenge. Setting the HUB cannon of any 109 to 150 is effectively setting it to the zero line of the engine like it was bolted in place in real life. This is true for all of the fighters in the game with cannon mounted in the engine. Then fly the K4 to shoot down fighters and see what kind of problems you have to over come.
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For you 109 enthusiasts who like to keep things historic. Try this challenge. Setting the HUB cannon of any 109 to 150 is effectively setting it to the zero line of the engine like it was bolted in place in real life. This is true for all of the fighters in the game with cannon mounted in the engine. Then fly the K4 to shoot down fighters and see what kind of problems you have to over come.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I fly with the hub cannon at 150, but not for historical reasons, because it works.
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I absolutely love the G14 because of the option to toss that crappy MK 108 out and put in the super lovely MG 151/20! I really should fly it more than I do.
Why is that? I hear a few people say they do it because they want to see where their rounds are going, but that's with tracers on and I fly with tracers off. Does it really matter if I shoot with 13mms? Is there some hidden secret that the 13mms somehow affect the 30mms aim?
I think you're talking about when you pass under me from my left to right. What I did was pull up, dropped some flaps, chopped throttle to almost 0, and stood on my right rudder. The 109s are very good at just pulling right around this way, but it bleeds lots of E.
I hear lead is the biggest problem in the K4 all the time. In the film I am actually leading the plane more than I would normally be if I was in any other plane. The first shot for example he is inside 200 yards away from me. I pull enough lead that he disappears under my nose and my 13mm's hit around his canopy and left wing. Where did my 30mm's go? Even with 350 convergence did they just drop straight off under him? Did they just never reach the target? How much more lead am I suppose to pull on this cannon?
Latrobe,
I am no expert at all with the 108 and still learning the plane.
Maybe you find this helpful.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.msg3529104.html#msg3529104
Nice writeup by grizz :salute
Regarding the quotes:
I can't hit anything with 13mm and 30 mm fired simultaneously. With or without tracers. I get confused and usually the 13 mm hit, the 30 does not.
Unloading your plane is also an issue. Only fire at LOW g or the bullet drop gets insane. For me thats the hardest part. Any g implied while firing makes any hit a lucky one.
In the posts by morf and bustr you also find the answers to the dispersion. I tried any available conversion and I am back at 250 now and I will stick with it although I do like to try out bustr's challenge....
If I fire a tater I have my opponent within 200 and still miss a lot :cry
What also helped me was turn off tracers, go to TA or offline, turn on LCG and fire at any angle you can get. Film the sorties and look them back in very slow motion.
The film viewer shows the range where you prefer to find a shot and it helps to put the plane to structural markings instead of only aiming with your gunsight.
If you need a target drone in TA, let me know.
<S>
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I have tried grizz's method, and I just suck at it. I don't have the brain power to calculate all those variables all at once. Grizz really is a master of the 30mm!
I have had a few successes recently with the 108 cannon. It's probably just pure dumb luck like it has always been, but I'll keep at it and see what happens. I really love the K4 and don't want to throw it away just because of its gun. Plus, Ratio's new skin for it is coming next tour and I really want to fly it! :x
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I have tried grizz's method, and I just suck at it. I don't have the brain power to calculate all those variables all at once. Grizz really is a master of the 30mm!
I have had a few successes recently with the 108 cannon. It's probably just pure dumb luck like it has always been, but I'll keep at it and see what happens. I really love the K4 and don't want to throw it away just because of its gun. Plus, Ratio's new skin for it is coming next tour and I really want to fly it! :x
I more or less use the Grizz method, without the level of polish he has. It really works, but it does take a lot of practice. One thing I find helps is to more or less set up as though you're trying to ram him, except actually try to fly through a couple plane lengths behind him.
Wiley.
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I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I fly with the hub cannon at 150, but not for historical reasons, because it works.
Ardy,
without going too far off topic, I tried this yesterday in DA and it is a miracle! :x
How come any other convergence makes it so much harder?
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Strangely, I find shooting the 30mm in the 152 MUCH easier than the K4. I am getting to the point where I can usually hit targets 400+ yards out fairly regularly in a 152 but similar shot in K4 and tater is nowhere to be found. Might be due to the fact I seem to have an easier job getting into good firing positions with the 152, or it could be mental given how furstrated I've become with the K4 over the years. :headscratch:
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It's the firing position your in most likely due to the different fighting styles of the birds. I fly both planes and would say I'm a lot more accurate in the 152 then the K4 just because this reason. High speed moves are a friend of the 152 not the K4
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Ya...that makes sense...tho' I seem to be able to hit things when I'm slow as well. To me, the 152 just seems to be a more stable gun platform than the K4.
Err....well..."stable" until you apply too much rudder or a teensy bit much AoA and flip the damn thing on its back / put it in a flat spin. She's a touchy b___h at times...kinda like my wife! :D :bolt:
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Well the rudder could also have something to do with it....152 has a monster rudder which definitely helps making shots.
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Well the rudder could also have something to do with it....152 has a monster rudder which definitely helps making shots.
Agreed....and I use it quite a bit when making some shot situations. K4 not so much.
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Did some testing with the Ta152 and K4 MK108. I think HTC is modeling two different rounds based on the results. In truth the MK108 program probably has functions controlling rate of fire, velocity, and dispersion haptics which have been set slightly different. The IP points stay roughly the same for drop.
I performed three 5sec firing tests at 300 yards with both fighters to screen capture the target. Then counted round impacts offline and averaged them. Here are the rounds per minute results.
K4 ----- 492 rpm
Ta152 - 512 rpm
The National AF Museum figures for the MK108 are 487M\sec at 450rpm which was the figures for the early prototype. And there were two primary rounds used in the MK108. Both Minengeschoss but, one was cylindrical with a conical ogive that shot at 485M\sec while the second had a tapered ogive and shot at 500M\sec.
Dispersion testing showed the K4 patterns were wider than high while the Ta152 patterns were roughly equal in WxH.
I'm not sure how to test for the initial velocity with what is available to us in the game.
Update:
At 500m with both planes it's taking just over 1sec to hit the target.
485m\sec will take about 1.3sec. from the book.
500m\sec will take about 1.15sec. from the book.
I don't have any way to tell the difference in .15sec. But, rate of fire is dependent on initial velocity.
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I wouldn't be surprised if there may be a difference in the actual modeling of the guns.... I'd assume the characteristics of them shooting would be the same except with the position of the gun itself
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Not really. In both engines the Mk108 is mounted into the rear end shooting through a pass through tube exiting the center of the spinner. The recoil is so low that neither plane should feel any effect. The only thing in real life that could effect the outcome of the trajectory would be the ogive of the round and a "slower or faster" initial velocity. During the life span of the gun type, the barrel length, number of groves and twist were never changed.
Recoil was controlled starting with the round was not fully seated when the primer was ignited. Most of the gasses then had escaped the barrel along with already pushing the bolt back which then was buffered with very heavy springs. So you ended up with a low velocity round and almost negligible recoil effect. The weight of the engine and the fact that the gun's action was behind the engine at the leading edge of the wing between the pilots feet should temper anything else. The ballistics were simply crappy because of the low velocity. At 860M\sec from the Mk103, the extra velocity and longer barrel improves the ballistics of the same round as you see in our Me410.
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Remember that the velocity of the projectile is not just the speed of the projectile from rest but also must include the speed of the aircraft at the time of the shot..
example (k4 at 400 mph)
400mph = 178.816 m/sec
so 487 m/s + 178 = 665 m/sec
That also has an impact on the trajectory
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My shooting is terrible at high speeds... Doesn't matter on the gun or projectile :(
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Not really. In both engines the Mk108 is mounted into the rear end shooting through a pass through tube exiting the center of the spinner. The recoil is so low that neither plane should feel any effect. The only thing in real life that could effect the outcome of the trajectory would be the ogive of the round and a "slower or faster" initial velocity. During the life span of the gun type, the barrel length, number of groves and twist were never changed.
Recoil was controlled starting with the round was not fully seated when the primer was ignited. Most of the gasses then had escaped the barrel along with already pushing the bolt back which then was buffered with very heavy springs. So you ended up with a low velocity round and almost negligible recoil effect. The weight of the engine and the fact that the gun's action was behind the engine at the leading edge of the wing between the pilots feet should temper anything else. The ballistics were simply crappy because of the low velocity. At 860M\sec from the Mk103, the extra velocity and longer barrel improves the ballistics of the same round as you see in our Me410.
Bustr, the MK108 and Mk103 while both being 30mm they are not the same round! The shell casing on the Mk103 was much longer and held more propellent.
But you knew that and just made a small error. :neener:
:salute
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The ballistic trajectory profile is a result of the relationship between the round at initV in the chamber and it's travel down the barrel along with the barrel's relative relationship to gravity at the moment the round leaves the barrel. At an initial PSI that results in 500 M\sec at the exit of the 23 inch 30mm barrel with 1:16 twist. You have crappy dispersion that kills the round's effectiveness as a fighter to fighter gun in a single gun mounting. The added momentum from the plane's speed just means the round reaches it's crappy dispersion that much quicker. But, it is a negligible part of the overall components creating the trajectory profile. With a slow speed round with crappy ballistics, high aircraft speeds will tend to influence badly your ability to hit things unless you are traveling in a straight line.
Now if the velocity exiting the muzzle was 665 M\sec you would have a slightly better long range trajectory and dispersion past 100m. But, then you would have the recoil problems associated with the larger amount of propellant and probably a need for a slightly longer barrel. Then it would probably be too much for the small airframe of a 109 along with a weight increase overall of the gun so the action could survive the pounding. The original reason for the light weight low recoil of the Mk108 design with crappy ballistics. Or why you didn't see MK103 in gondolas mounted to 109's.
The MK108 ballistic profile in the game today, doesn't seem to be as friendly as it was 3 to 5 years ago. I no longer hear many players talking about making 400-600 yard kill shots as a standard with the tater anymore like they did back then. Players today seem to talk more about getting closer to achieve kill shots with the K4 and Ta152 against fighters.
Morph,
Mk103\Mk108 used the same round, different cases.
Mk103\108
Round\projectile = 3 cm M-Gesch. 108 Ausf.A m. Zerl.\3 cm M-Gesch. L.spur m. Zerl. / 3 cm M-Gesch. .Gl.spur m. Zerl.
Mk103 Case\Shell - 30x184B 860M\sec
Mk108 Case\Shell - 30×90RB 500M\sec
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:rofl
:salute
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The ballistic trajectory profile is a result of the relationship between the round at initV in the chamber and it's travel down the barrel along with the barrel's relative relationship to gravity at the moment the round leaves the barrel. At an initial PSI that results in 500 M\sec at the exit of the 23 inch 30mm barrel with 1:16 twist. You have crappy dispersion that kills the round's effectiveness as a fighter to fighter gun in a single gun mounting. The added momentum from the plane's speed just means the round reaches it's crappy dispersion that much quicker. But, it is a negligible part of the overall components creating the trajectory profile. With a slow speed round with crappy ballistics, high aircraft speeds will tend to influence badly your ability to hit things unless you are traveling in a straight line.
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking, I was never saying that it would impact the dispersion but that it would impact the curve of the trajectory and that doesn't even make sense because the shooter isn't suddenly going to a velocity of 0 after the projectile leaving the chamber. But dispersion being the real problem.. its kinda irrelevant.