Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Randy1 on November 27, 2013, 06:40:56 AM
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Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.
I was watching a video on WW2 tactics. There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner. I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.
I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH. I can but at the cost of checking our six. How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six? It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.
What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?
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What prevents vox comms via squad channel?
I was taught a separation of 1.8K - 2.0K between wingies was SOP. I suppose it would depend on the given situation.
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I don't wing very often, but the few times I've gotten serious about it I followed the 1-2K rule as well. I would generally fly very loose from my wing leader flying not perfectly on his flight path, but enough so that I stay within 2K. This allows me to finish off any plane he misses a shot on and flying loosely allows me to quickly check around for other dangers while my wing leader focuses on picking out targets to attack.
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The AK's have been focusing on wing tactics in the recent months. The best combination we have found is the loose deuce.
The way this works is you maintain at least 800-1200 yards separation. When on the offense, one plane will attack while the other watch's for other cons, and tries to set up the con for a kill if the "engaged" fighter misses. If that happens, the "engaged" fighter switches places with the "free" fighter.
In a defensive situation, frequently a single fighter will attack and because of your separation, he will have to choose between you and your wingman. This allows the "free" fighter to engage the attacker while the "engaged" fighter maneuvers to assist. Good communication is a must regardless. While we haven't perfected it, we are starting to see the benefit's.
Of course once you are mired in a furball, it gets difficult to impossible as often times you are both being attacked. Other tactics keep you out of that situation.
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It's actually important for you not to be flying welded wing with your wingman.
Two planes that are basically flying in formation can be treated as a single enemy, in terms of defensive maneuvering. Meaning, if I have two enemies attacking me, it is much easier for me to handle a pair of bad guys who are essentially flying together than it is to handle two enemies who are working together, but with some separation.
When one attacks, the second is there to watch for additional threats AND take advantage of a shot opportunity that may arise when his wingman misses a pass.
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Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.
I was watching a video on WW2 tactics. There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner. I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.
I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH. I can but at the cost of checking our six. How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six? It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.
What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?
It takes a great deal of practice with a dedicated wingman. This gets the two of you to a place to where you know each other's next move and what each other are thinking in a given situation. It also requires a good working knowledge of BFM and tactical maneuvering (ACM). Typically, there isn't a lot of coordinated tactical wing work in game since most fly "lone wolf".
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/MutualSupportChog.jpg)
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/MutalBoom.jpg)
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/PonyGearDown.png)
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/ponyflareldg.png)
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I did a LOT of wing man flying in warbirds with a dedicated and real life Air Warrior, Sach. A) you need to stay close enough to clear each other, usually 2.0 or so. B) you need to let some kills go so you can stay close, you have to keep the leader or attacker clear and not get drug away from him chasing a con. The primary objective is for both planes to RTB, the second is for the attacker to get kills, and then switch roles for the wing to get kills. It does take lots of time flying together and good communication over TS. It is a real blast when you can get in a 2v4 fight and drag it out, kill all 4 cons using good tactics and RTB.
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Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.
I was watching a video on WW2 tactics. There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner. I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.
I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH. I can but at the cost of checking our six. How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six? It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.
What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?
the best is fox hound when attacking... 2k hover when assessing... when digressing the tit for tat emmel clear6... the wingman is the eyes...
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I think that in WWII, it was more common than not for wingmen to get separated from their leads in the course of swirling dogfights.
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I think that in WWII, it was more common than not for wingmen to get separated from their leads in the course of swirling dogfights.
I expect so. FSO events with the icon distances turned way down often see groups separated easily.
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Scotty57 and I wing from time to time when he rotates through to Bish. We usually stay with 1.5 to 2k of each other once visual is made with a con. When in a furball it is easy to get seperated. Vox communication is key when winging and when I am his wing I try to stay on his high six to maintain E in the event he gets bounced. It's always a fun time :joystick:
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Winging as a rule is about give and take. And about knowing your partner. When I wing, as stated 2k or so is a good start.
In our game it's almost more about being good "bait". Your enemy is not going to want to tipically engage 2 enemy. So one of you needs to hang his butt out a bit ( bruv) can confirm I'm pretty good bait. If the enemy is focused on the prize in front of him he doesn't see the second one coming.
As for the wingman, always make sure you are " holding" 100+ mph on your leader when your not playing bait. This can be done by having altitude, ( and that might make it that you need to be more than 2 k away) but its ok if you are directly over the fight.
Always be thinking in your head (if my leader gets reversed on, in his current engagement can I clear him in under 30 seconds) also be watching the fight, does it look like your leader is losing his advantage? If so start getting your speed up now, (dive) if things go well, no harm, climb back up. If it does go south, your already diving in.
Talking to each other as stated befor is key until you have gotten to a point that talking is just silly. And what I mean by this is, if your going left right up down or backwards you need to let each other know. Your leader wants to know you are right over the fight and ready to clear. He also wants to know that you have 18 bad guys all within icon range 4 outside icon, 4 with alt, and 2 that could be trouble in the next few min.
You as wingman need to inform the leader of the big picture outside so he can stay focused on the prize in his gunsights. When his time is upand he needs to break off, warn him early " you got about 20 seconds to get him befor this D-9 comes in.
This gives him fair warning that not only does he need to start aiming for the cockpit, but that he needs to start looking for the 190.
It's tough to say everything in just a message but I think the big things have been covered.
Don't stay too close, keep the leader informed of all things that could kill you both, if your 2 on one and he doesn't wanna fight, someone needs to be bait.
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I got called away so I am slow in replying. Super information. Just what we need to get started right in good basic wingman tactics. We were trying to stay to close for sure and our communications is indeed lacking.
I have gotten burned by good wing man tactics.
I have this thread saved.
Thanks again for sharing ya'll's expertise.
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I got called away so I am slow in replying. Super information. Just what we need to get started right in good basic wingman tactics. We were trying to stay to close for sure and our communications is indeed lacking.
I have gotten burned by good wing man tactics.
I have this thread saved.
Thanks again for sharing ya'll's expertise.
:airplane: One thing I would recommend is using the "Thatch" weave wing man tatic that the Navy used during WW2. The wing man would be about 2,000 feet above and behind the lead aircraft and would be making "S" turns, that way the wing man could see the "6" area quite well. Of course the lead aircraft can't be flying with full throttle, until engaged in combat, because with the wing man during "S" turns, the lead ship would eventually run off and leave the wing man. Below is a link from The U.S. Naval Insitute explaning how the weave was developed.
Three Navy fighter pilots—Jimmie Thach, Butch O'Hare, and Jimmy Flatley—who developed sweeping changes in aerial combat tactics during World War II. While O'Hare and Flatley were instrumental in making the "weave" a success, Thach was its theoretical innovator, and his use of the tactic in combat at Midway documented its practical application. This portrait of the famous pilot provides a memorable account of how Thach, convinced that his Wildcat was no match for Japan's formidable Zero, found a way to give his squadron a fighting chance. Using matchsticks on his kitchen table, he devised a solution that came to be called the Thach Weave. But as Steve Ewing is quick to point out, this was not Thach's sole contribution to the Navy. Throughout his forty-year career, Thach provided answers to multiple challenges facing the Navy, and his ideas were implemented service wide.
A highly decorated ace, Thach was an early test pilot, a creative task force operations officer in the last year of World War II, and an outstanding carrier commander in the Korean War. During the Cold War, he contributed to advances in antisubmarine warfare. This shows him to be a charismatic leader interested in everyone around him, regardless of rank or status. His dry sense of humor and constant smile attracted people from all walks of life, and he was a popular figure in Hollywood. Thach remains a hero among naval aviators, his most famous combat tactic still used by today's pilots.
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After the holiday, we should be able to put some of this advice to good use. One of our biggest problems was maintaining proper separation from what I have read in the replies.
I have ran into a couple of 109s one occasion and mustangs on another that had considerable altitude advantage. They worked well together. I could avoid one but the other took advantage of my avoiding the first attacker.
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For in game, Jappa and I found that 1,000 to 1,500 was optimum to always be able to maintain mutual support and get an expeditious kill and both of us to survive for the next engagement. Anything farther out tended to result in one or both of us hung out without the desired mutual support. :salute
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Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.
I was watching a video on WW2 tactics. There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner. I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.
I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH. I can but at the cost of checking our six. How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six? It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.
What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?
The stories you've heard are frequently originated by those who rarely if ever got into real dogfights. And by real, I mean two opposing groups that were completely intent on killing the enemy in the "here and now" and end up in swirling dogfights. They did not maintain formation on a wingman unless the leader only BnZ'd.
Those kinds of fights existed in situations like the battle of Brittain when forces and equipment were fairly equal. If you read stories from those battles and others like many engagements in the South Pacific, you will hear a different story of pilots getting separated from their units in dogfights that spread out hundreds of miles.
You have no peripheral vision in AH so you will never get into hard turning dogfights while keeping track of your surroundings AND staying on your partners wing. It's not possible. If you want to BnZ together, maybe.
The best chance is to stay close and watch from a distance. You attack anything that saddles on him, he does the same for you.
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For in game, Jappa and I found that 1,000 to 1,500 was optimum to always be able to maintain mutual support and get an expeditious kill and both of us to survive for the next engagement. Anything farther out tended to result in one or both of us hung out without the desired mutual support.
I dreaded to see that team. Good advice, based upon good results.
- oldman
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If we're going to do wing-man tactics we try to keep about a 1K horizontal separation with the wing-man roughly 1500 ft high and to the 4-5oclock position of the lead. This usually works pretty well for the wing-man to watch for picks, and also to keep his lead in sight. It depends on the situation though, a 2 on 1 or a 2 on 2 we just split and go after both of them. Stay close to your wing-man so you can help him out if they need it.
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If we're going to do wing-man tactics we try to keep about a 1K horizontal separation with the wing-man roughly 1500 ft high and to the 4-5oclock position of the lead. This usually works pretty well for the wing-man to watch for picks, and also to keep his lead in sight. It depends on the situation though, a 2 on 1 or a 2 on 2 we just split and go after both of them. Stay close to your wing-man so you can help him out if they need it.
Line abreast work even better for visual look out. :salute
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Line abreast work even better for visual look out. :salute
easier to jump on your leads 6 if your slightly behind him though, only reason we run it like that
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easier to jump on your leads 6 if your slightly behind him though, only reason we run it like that
...and that makes it easier for a bandit to jump the trailing wingman because the lead can't physically clear as much of the wingman's six. Effective use of BFM allows either to get on the other's six to work an attacking bandit. :salute
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Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.
I was watching a video on WW2 tactics. There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner. I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.
I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH. I can but at the cost of checking our six. How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six? It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.
What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?
Hi Randy!
Check your Private Messages.
Mutley :salute
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Fighting with wingman requires 2 things, thrust and ability of your wingman/wingmen/plane type.
In LD flying together is what our squad is all about.
This can be frowned upon by some, but its fun, and it increase your chances of RTB.
I know hanging a con will get his butt kicked, and my bacon saved with a good wingman.
If you are flying deep down in the weeds, chased by those LA-7's the high squaddie with the right plane dives in to save the day for you, and also send that LA-7 where is belongs.
Some things I have noticed trying different tactics:
1-2k distance between wingmen doesn't work in general, 2-4k is more of a norm in MA.
Use plane types that work good together. close-in fighters like the zeke and a brick 190 makes it much harder to work good.
Use Teamspeak or in-game voice, give short exact instructions what you are doing and enemy plane/position and closure if you are chased, and wingman gives distance to target, closure, and if he wants to shorten path by you turning to either side.
Trying to help green planes is also an option, but I tried too many times to save someone, just to see him turn into the horde at the wrong moment, next time you see that player in trouble ( normally within 5 minutes, in trouble again), you just want to whistle and fly by.
Some veterans you see every night, always give you same good instructions as your wingman.
Escort buffs = best perk-farming you can get, you also help buff pilots complete their mission, as you have wingman you can both sweep in front of buffs and protect them from a high position.
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Last night we put all of this good advice to practice. Unfortunately :) It was against Drano, Soulyss and Latrobe. We got beat but had a great time doing it.
No doubt, the two greatest barriers to wingman work is distance and communications. Y'all are dead on with your advice.
Save, I am afraid I am guilty of jumping right back into the fight. You have saved my butt several times.
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Fighting with wingman requires 2 things, thrust and ability of your wingman/wingmen/plane type.
In LD flying together is what our squad is all about.
This can be frowned upon by some, but its fun, and it increase your chances of RTB.
I know hanging a con will get his butt kicked, and my bacon saved with a good wingman.
If you are flying deep down in the weeds, chased by those LA-7's the high squaddie with the right plane dives in to save the day for you, and also send that LA-7 where is belongs.
Some things I have noticed trying different tactics:
1-2k distance between wingmen doesn't work in general, 2-4k is more of a norm in MA.
Use plane types that work good together. close-in fighters like the zeke and a brick 190 makes it much harder to work good.
Use Teamspeak or in-game voice, give short exact instructions what you are doing and enemy plane/position and closure if you are chased, and wingman gives distance to target, closure, and if he wants to shorten path by you turning to either side.
Trying to help green planes is also an option, but I tried too many times to save someone, just to see him turn into the horde at the wrong moment, next time you see that player in trouble ( normally within 5 minutes, in trouble again), you just want to whistle and fly by.
Some veterans you see every night, always give you same good instructions as your wingman.
Escort buffs = best perk-farming you can get, you also help buff pilots complete their mission, as you have wingman you can both sweep in front of buffs and protect them from a high position.
Very true that effective communication is key to success. From experience, a 2-4 K spread simply takes time to get to the other guy when he gets tagged. Typically, unless the attacker blows the first pass, the wingman gets shot before the other can fly the longer distance to engage.
With a wide spread like that and the pair not line abreast, it's fairly easy to sneak up from low deep six on the trailer and take care of business because most players don't belly check. :salute
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:airplane: One thing I would recommend is using the "Thatch" weave wing man tatic that the Navy used during WW2. The wing man would be about 2,000 feet above and behind the lead aircraft and would be making "S" turns, that way the wing man could see the "6" area quite well. Of course the lead aircraft can't be flying with full throttle, until engaged in combat, because with the wing man during "S" turns, the lead ship would eventually run off and leave the wing man.
Earl, you're misunderstanding the Thatch Weave. The wingman isn't behind the lead, he's abeam him. Although originally intended as a defensive position, it eventually developed into what we now call Combat Spread which is considered both a defensive and offensive formation. Separation between the friendly fighters is roughly equal to their turn diameter. The abeam position allows both pilots to easily clear the other's six.
If an NME fighter is spotted behind the section but too far for the NME to attack a simple cross turn (each friendly fighter does a 180deg turn toward the other) will reverse the flight into the threat. However, if the NME fighter is close to an attack position then he must chose which fighter to attack. Again, both friendly fighters turn into each other but the goal isn't for both fighters to turn and face the threat. Instead, the fighter being attacked is simply dragging the NME into a nose-to-nose confrontation with the other friendly fighter. Once the two friendlies complete 90 degrees of turn they pass nose-to-nose and then reverse their turns to return to their original heading. If the NME continues to attack then the friendlies just continue to weave giving one fighter opportunities for forward quarter shots (or as we say in AH, "HOs") on the NME.
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Earl, you're misunderstanding the Thatch Weave. The wingman isn't behind the lead, he's abeam him. Although originally intended as a defensive position, it eventually developed into what we now call Combat Spread which is considered both a defensive and offensive formation. Separation between the friendly fighters is roughly equal to their turn diameter. The abeam position allows both pilots to easily clear the other's six.
If an NME fighter is spotted behind the section but too far for the NME to attack a simple cross turn (each friendly fighter does a 180deg turn toward the other) will reverse the flight into the threat. However, if the NME fighter is close to an attack position then he must chose which fighter to attack. Again, both friendly fighters turn into each other but the goal isn't for both fighters to turn and face the threat. Instead, the fighter being attacked is simply dragging the NME into a nose-to-nose confrontation with the other friendly fighter. Once the two friendlies complete 90 degrees of turn they pass nose-to-nose and then reverse their turns to return to their original heading. If the NME continues to attack then the friendlies just continue to weave giving one fighter opportunities for forward quarter shots (or as we say in AH, "HOs") on the NME.
Ah, yes......TAC turns. Rarely seen in game, but quite effective. :aok
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Communication is key, I have been flying as ZENSEN's wingman for 5 years. In that time I have learned just what he is gonna do and we communicate it very well. At first I couldn't even keep up with him now it is just a matter of him stating his intentions and I set myself up. We have on many occasions caused quite a mess and survived just as many as well. We are short and sweet on the comms with a few words here and there and nothing more.
It took a long time to get to that and quite a few trips to the TA. If your squadron does not take advantage of the TA and the work you can do in it than maybe it should. Formation flying is the first step then after that is mastered than working as winged pairs becomes rather easy. Team up with a fellow oilot and learn what he does and when. The winged pair is built over time and is one founded on trust. Keep at it and it will come ....
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http://www.youtube.com/v/w5EQp9T_Dkg&hl=en_US&fs=1& My Wingman
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Very true that effective communication is key to success. From experience, a 2-4 K spread simply takes time to get to the other guy when he gets tagged. Typically, unless the attacker blows the first pass, the wingman gets shot before the other can fly the longer distance to engage.
With a wide spread like that and the pair not line abreast, it's fairly easy to sneak up from low deep six on the trailer and take care of business because most players don't belly check. :salute
This is why we are the Loose Deuce. We do not fly formation except in transit and do not have strict rules in combat. We don't even formally divide into pairs. Our method is much more about a shared situational awareness through good communication, and knowing what to do in various situations.
With good SA and experienced players we recognize someone is in a bad situation long before it gets to the "oh @#$% 400 yards on my tail!" stage. Much less than 2k separation will often not leave you without enough room to maneuver into position to help your wingman unless you kept formation the whole time. Also, having separation gives the enemy false hope that he can single out one of us, only to fall into a trap. If your wingman is close, the bandit can threaten both of you - in which case it is not clear who is the defending and who is the attacking wingman till he is very close. Alternatively he may simply be scared away so not to fall into an obvious 2v1 situation.
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This is why we are the Loose Deuce. We do not fly formation except in transit and do not have strict rules in combat. We don't even formally divide into pairs. Our method is much more about a shared situational awareness through good communication, and knowing what to do in various situations.
With good SA and experienced players we recognize someone is in a bad situation long before it gets to the "oh @#$% 400 yards on my tail!" stage. Much less than 2k separation will often not leave you without enough room to maneuver into position to help your wingman unless you kept formation the whole time. Also, having separation gives the enemy false hope that he can single out one of us, only to fall into a trap. If your wingman is close, the bandit can threaten both of you - in which case it is not clear who is the defending and who is the attacking wingman till he is very close. Alternatively he may simply be scared away so not to fall into an obvious 2v1 situation.
Well, as they say, " technique only".
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Earl, you're misunderstanding the Thatch Weave. The wingman isn't behind the lead, he's abeam him. Although originally intended as a defensive position, it eventually developed into what we now call Combat Spread which is considered both a defensive and offensive formation. Separation between the friendly fighters is roughly equal to their turn diameter. The abeam position allows both pilots to easily clear the other's six.
If an NME fighter is spotted behind the section but too far for the NME to attack a simple cross turn (each friendly fighter does a 180deg turn toward the other) will reverse the flight into the threat. However, if the NME fighter is close to an attack position then he must chose which fighter to attack. Again, both friendly fighters turn into each other but the goal isn't for both fighters to turn and face the threat. Instead, the fighter being attacked is simply dragging the NME into a nose-to-nose confrontation with the other friendly fighter. Once the two friendlies complete 90 degrees of turn they pass nose-to-nose and then reverse their turns to return to their original heading. If the NME continues to attack then the friendlies just continue to weave giving one fighter opportunities for forward quarter shots (or as we say in AH, "HOs") on the NME.
:airplane: Correct Sir and thank yu for setting me straight! I found a diagram of the "thach weave":
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/tachw-wave_zps4a823c2f.jpg)
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http://arlogu3.wix.com/vf-17-jolly-rogers#!briefing-films
http://www.youtube.com/v/tPauUs6BG24
http://www.youtube.com/v/ULvHXDLmjCg
http://www.youtube.com/v/VhmqVJusngc
http://www.youtube.com/v/HGSgbFyZPmw
http://www.youtube.com/v/y_vAr_dXMp8
http://www.youtube.com/v/Iz8Q1yq-IxI
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If the NME continues to attack then the friendlies just continue to weave giving one fighter opportunities for forward quarter shots (or as we say in AH, "HOs") on the NME.
Per the diagram Earl posted and the way I've always employed it and seen it described, I never really saw it as a front quarter shot, I was generally around the 3-9 line when I was shooting at them.
It works quite well when you've got a cooperative bandit.
Wiley.
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On Sunday, while cruising in a 109K4 I happened on a pair of P51's slightly lower than me. They kept their seperation as close to perfect as I have seen. I must have tried a Dozen times to attack but each and every time the one left alone would be swinging around on me before I could have even got guns on his buddy. I even tried the fake to one guy then snap back to the other. Got nuthin'. We had a nice little PM chat afterward even though I exited the fight when I could see it wasn't going to happen and they were bleeding my E away. Wish I could remember your names, (old brain), but <S> you 2 again. Feel free to chime in if it was you. Was really really fun.
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Per the diagram Earl posted and the way I've always employed it and seen it described, I never really saw it as a front quarter shot, I was generally around the 3-9 line when I was shooting at them.
It works quite well when you've got a cooperative bandit.
Wiley.
In theory, when the NME fighter sees the wingman turning into him he should come off the guy he's chasing and honor the threat by taking the wingman 180 out (i.e., neutralize him). That would tend to make this more of a direct head-on attack. If the guy isn't very bright and sticks with his original target he becomes predictable and gives the wingman both angles and position.
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On Sunday, while cruising in a 109K4 I happened on a pair of P51's slightly lower than me. They kept their seperation as close to perfect as I have seen. I must have tried a Dozen times to attack but each and every time the one left alone would be swinging around on me before I could have even got guns on his buddy. I even tried the fake to one guy then snap back to the other. Got nuthin'. We had a nice little PM chat afterward even though I exited the fight when I could see it wasn't going to happen and they were bleeding my E away. Wish I could remember your names, (old brain), but <S> you 2 again. Feel free to chime in if it was you. Was really really fun.
<S> Hartmann, that would be Paladin3 and I. That was a really fun fight and it was great to have it with a class act such as yourself!
the 4th FG prides ourselves in our ability to work together as a unit, opposed to going in every man for themselves. Yeah we catch flak for it occasionally, on how "you got lucky because your wingman saved ur butt blah blah blah" but that's really more of a compliment because that's what we do. We practice the shackles, the
TAC turns, combat spreads, active defense maneuvers, the cross reverse, etc. and we fly that way together in the MA. It really brings a lot more to the game, and is on its own a completely different level of playing. While I like to go it alone every once in a while into a furball, pairing with a wingman is where its at.
The really fun fights are the 2v2's where each pair is winging together, those make for some seriously awesome engagements.
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Per the diagram Earl posted and the way I've always employed it and seen it described, I never really saw it as a front quarter shot, I was generally around the 3-9 line when I was shooting at them.
It works quite well when you've got a cooperative bandit.
Wiley.
Wiley, Check out this youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdPZU6BCqho
At about 7:45 there starts a near perfect thatch weave that Buzurd and I pulled off on an F4u. Its a beautiful thing when it works correctly. Forgive the crazy talk and default sounds, this was a while ago.
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<S> Hartmann, that would be Paladin3 and I. That was a really fun fight and it was great to have it with a class act such as yourself!
the 4th FG prides ourselves in our ability to work together as a unit, opposed to going in every man for themselves. Yeah we catch flak for it occasionally, on how "you got lucky because your wingman saved ur butt blah blah blah" but that's really more of a compliment because that's what we do. We practice the shackles, the
TAC turns, combat spreads, active defense maneuvers, the cross reverse, etc. and we fly that way together in the MA. It really brings a lot more to the game, and is on its own a completely different level of playing. While I like to go it alone every once in a while into a furball, pairing with a wingman is where its at.
The really fun fights are the 2v2's where each pair is winging together, those make for some seriously awesome engagements.
Good for you guys! The dedicated wingman and tactical flying works well doesn't it?
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In theory, when the NME fighter sees the wingman turning into him he should come off the guy he's chasing and honor the threat by taking the wingman 180 out (i.e., neutralize him). That would tend to make this more of a direct head-on attack. If the guy isn't very bright and sticks with his original target he becomes predictable and gives the wingman both angles and position.
Ah. The few times I've been in position to employ it that they didn't cooperate they turned into me but I didn't go for the front quarter shot... It might've been a more efficient solution than retaining my E and chandelling while my wingman reengaged him. When I'm working a single bandit with my wingman I'm really stingy with my E. My philosophy is to keep as much as I can while he bleeds his avoiding us until either I connect with one of my relatively high-E passes, or he's so bled out I feel confident I can saddle him and he won't be able to dodge.
Wiley, Check out this youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdPZU6BCqho
At about 7:45 there starts a near perfect thatch weave that Buzurd and I pulled off on an F4u. Its a beautiful thing when it works correctly. Forgive the crazy talk and default sounds, this was a while ago.
Oh yeah. It's interesting to see how different people fly. I tend to use the vertical a lot when I've got alt. Thach weave I only tend to use when I'm down on the deck as for me it's an effective solution when you don't have 'down' to work with.
Gotta agree with you as well on the 2v2's. Hartmann and I used to wing a lot and it was at its best when we had position to start working a crowd or when another dedicated wingpair showed up.
I still remember the one night right after one of the trainers had done a wingpair seminar, we went over to the main and went on a few sorties. The area we were in had about 3 other pairs of red planes doing the same thing we were. Fun was had by all.
It can kind of feel like seal clubbing when the two of you are working one bandit though unless it's a top 10% type guy.
Wiley.
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<S> Ripley & Paladin3.
Next time I'm winging with a squaddie, I'll shoot you a PM and we shall have a 2 on 2 encounter, sirs.
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<S> Wiley. My old wingy! We have hundreds of hours of flying as a pair bro. I was at the point where I knew exactly what you were going to do. My best memories are mostly as your wingman, I enjoyed every minute of it.
Many times it would come to this:
"Wiley, we have lost the advantage and we have many bandits inbound to crush us, we need to get out now."
"F it Zoney, I'm going to kill (insert plane here) first."
"Rgr Wiley, I'm back in, bring him left if ya can....."
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I was at the point where I knew exactly what you were going to do.
"Try to kill just one more" generally about summed it up. ;)
Many times it would come to this:
"Wiley, we have lost the advantage and we have many bandits inbound to crush us, we need to get out now."
"F it Zoney, I'm going to kill (insert plane here) first."
"Rgr Wiley, I'm back in, bring him left if ya can....."
The high bandits were only 4k out... I had time to kill the guy in front of me and avoid their first pass, then egress. Really! ;)
Definitely some of the best times I've had in game too man. :salute :joystick:
Wiley.
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<S> Wiley. My old wingy! We have hundreds of hours of flying as a pair bro. I was at the point where I knew exactly what you were going to do. My best memories are mostly as your wingman, I enjoyed every minute of it.
Many times it would come to this:
"Wiley, we have lost the advantage and we have many bandits inbound to crush us, we need to get out now."
"F it Zoney, I'm going to kill (insert plane here) first."
"Rgr Wiley, I'm back in, bring him left if ya can....."
So Zoney, how did you talk someone else into climbing to 35K? :noid
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So Zoney, how did you talk someone else into climbing to 35K? :noid
Heh... The funny thing is, generally speaking I didn't have the patience for it. I am somewhat of an altmonkey but not quite in Z's class. We'd quite often go into a fight with me around 15-20k and him at 25k+. If it took us a while to find the fight, I'd eventually get up there. It worked fairly well, generally speaking if something came in between us he was able to push it down to my alt so we both could engage.
Wiley.
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Back in the day BatfinkV and I used to wing up regularly.....Lots and lots of fond memories of that....
Comms is key...plane types....
He and I used to run a few sorties and once the fight started , not say more than just a few words....I knew where he was and what he was doing and he the same....and we didn't need to say a thing....it was fun.
Batfinks biggest drawback was my piss poor aim.....if I could have ever shot like he did ....man.....
Sometimes I do miss those days...