Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Changeup on November 30, 2013, 09:31:53 AM
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After watching some films that were taken over the last 12 months, I can't get past 5 cons...unless the numbers are even minus one (21 films...not a huge sample but now that I'm paying attention to it, it seems accurate).
Suggestions and discuss options...
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I usually try to dive in a furball of 10+ cons and make sure each one has a fair shot at blowing off parts of my plane before I die a heroic death. :D
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Sober or under the influence of a few beers? :)
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I think I said that wrong...mine is 4...I die every time at 5, lmao.
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I'm beginning to think it's 1 with the way I've been going lately, lol.
I think it depends on who the cons are. 3 good sticks that are actively working together can stretch my SA beyond it's breaking point. There have been times where I've kept track of 7 or 8 guys, but they were making it easy for me by staying on the same side, alt, etc.
On average, I'd say 4-5 is about right.
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I think it depends on who the cons are.
This.
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When I'm actually flying well I can keep track of about 5, maybe 6 planes. I just can't out fly 3v1's yet though, and I struggle with 2v1's. Just have to take it one step at a time though. Get good at winning 2v1's, then get good at winning 3v1's, then 4v1's, etc.
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Fairly bad, it's about 2 (unless I'm hovering way above everyone else). Lately I'm suffering from target fixation more and more (probably a sign of getting old), so I avoid flying in furballs much more than 5 years ago.
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Also depends on your skill in a plane and the plane it's self. I've been in a fight with 7 guys a while back. Was driving the ki84 and I was able to knock 5 down. Then a swarm of like 7 more joined and I was killed. Against advanced foes 2 sometimes 3'is the limit.
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4-5 down low. 6-8 if I have altitude on them. With that said, there always seems to be 1-2 more than those numbers whenever I am engaged. :uhoh
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Four is the most I've ever faced and defeated (fighters, not buffs or jabos) but I regularily find myself against 10 or more. WTH, it's just a game.
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I don't think it is possible to 'win' a 2v1 as the 1. It is only possible to lose it as the 2. There is no reason why the 2 should not win every time other than making big mistakes.
my SA has dropped off a bit since not playing very often. Once it gets past about 3v1 I have a hard time following them all.
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I don't think it is possible to 'win' a 2v1 as the 1. It is only possible to lose it as the 2. There is no reason why the 2 should not win every time other than making big mistakes.
my SA has dropped off a bit since not playing very often. Once it gets past about 3v1 I have a hard time following them all.
Or if the 1 was just a superior pilot, which is the thought process I choose to take! :aok
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As a starting point for managing the cons, in what order are you judging the following threat matrix?:
Plane capabilities
Position in space
Distance from you and direction
Or, are you having issues with keeping eyes on the cons?
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As a starting point for managing the cons, in what order are you judging the following threat matrix?:
Plane capabilities
Position in space
Distance from you and direction
Or, are you having issues with keeping eyes on the cons?
1. Distance from you and direction
2. Position in space
3. Plane capabilities
My biggest trouble isn't keeping eyes on, it's the judgement of E and the timer in my head that is sometimes way off. I had a few sorties yesterday where I knew who shot me and where they came from. I thought I had more time. Stupid eyes and brain. :bhead
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3, I die at 4. I normally spend my time hunting the good sticks if I hear one of them is on though, and win 50% of the time. :P
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1. Distance from you and direction
2. Position in space
3. Plane capabilities
My biggest trouble isn't keeping eyes on, it's the judgement of E and the timer in my head that is sometimes way off. I had a few sorties yesterday where I knew who shot me and where they came from. I thought I had more time. Stupid eyes and brain. :bhead
I'm the same in all of this except I consider Distance and Positioning both as 1. When I stumble into multiple cons I look for who has alt on me, who I have alt on, and who is closest. The highest con could be 5K away, while someone is climbing up below me just 1K away. The closer plane is the immediate threat, but the other con still does have more alt than me making him a fairly big threat, just not an immediate one. Plane capabilities just let's me know who I would like to kill first, but out numbered I'll shoot at whoever I can. It'd be nice to kill the A6M when I'm flying a P-47, but if I can't get shots on him then I'll shoot at the Typhoon off my 12 instead.
The internal timer is a tough thing to get working, mine is broken as well. :) For anyone who doesn't understand this, you don't have to keep your eyes on a plane to keep SA on him. In a multi-con engagement it's just physically impossible to look in 2 different directions. So instead you look at the P-51 (as an example) as he misses a pass on you. It appears he is climbing up to alt to set up for another pass. It takes time for him to get turned around, so for the next 3-5 seconds he will not be an immediate threat as he is busy climbing and turning around. Take this time to check up on that Spitfire that was turning in on you. After 3-5 seconds an internal alarm clock should start ringing in your head (ok, you don't literally hear a ringing, but you know what I mean :) ). It's telling you "Hey! That P-51 should be turned around by now and is probably making a pass on you! You should check on him and see what he's up to!"
I love this thread! It's making me think of things I've never actually thought about before! :aok
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Or if the 1 was just a superior pilot, which is the thought process I choose to take! :aok
Fair enough, that's a good positive attitude to have.
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As ridiculous as this sounds i have fought off 8-9 planes vs just little ol me in a 109f.
But I mostly find my self in 3v1 to 4v1 and on my way home ill get killed in a 2v1.
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I hit my SA saturation point sometime between clicking on the runway button to spawn in and wheels up.
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Being below getting BnZed it depends if they are working well with one another....they shouldn't give you the time of day to watch for other planes.
Everyone sometime or another has only handle 2 or 15...to put an exact number on it doesn't make sense because with SA in this game you need to look at roster and the map to determine fights. Like yesterday at A8 A58....Rooks had alt monkeys flying in from A5 and we had them from A56? But 56 was further away so we would have less alt monkeys but they would probably have more alt.
Looking at a map and roster I can tell pretty often which squad is attack what base. So if I can tell that 10 Jokers are vulching a base and I come over in a 152 above them....my SA is 10? No I think you need to look at not a set number but how well at the different levels of SA.
Local - Icon Range
Intermediate- Within the 2 base fight
Long Range - A few sectors out (next available field to up alt monkeys)
Global - Using Roster and the overall scheme of maneuver on map to tell what will happen soon. I know from experience that Knights stop defending when a side ups a horde, they start furballing. So if I go after that horde I won't have as much company as I would in a fur ball.
Local I'm decent, I normally see my death coming a minute or so before it happens which is a failure in....
Intermediate...I can be good here but my down and dirty fighting style often gets me horde ganged by the continuous line coming in sometimes a alt monkey will drop from 20k and be the 8th dude in but because I'm alright at
Long Range....I knew he was coming and he had the distance to easily get to 20k just on auto climb alone...and it was a 49th FG guy
Globally I know I'm fighting all of that chess pieces horde monies
Sorry...type this on my Droid lol
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well last night i was fighting off 10 until the 11th 109f4 decided to come kill me in my 120mph p38. As i continued to drink i was having a hard time with any red icon i saw..
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Awareness or fighting?
If they are uncoordinated or competing for the kill then you can handle more & for longer. If they are experienced at cooperating / systematic and skilled then two can kill you after perhaps only three turns.
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As a starting point for managing the cons, in what order are you judging the following threat matrix?:
Plane capabilities
Position in space
Distance from you and direction
Or, are you having issues with keeping eyes on the cons?
Position (which includes distance and direction), E state then plane type.
I try to herd the opponents into a single view if at all possible making my job much easier. Typically I can move 4 or 5 into a single view but that's about the limit. If I can get that done then it's plane type.
I'm also always thinking defensively first and offensively second in a multi-con engagement; typically rotating my side to the opponent reducing his target then looking for an overshoot that I can roll back into.
For me it's fun diving into a sea of red to see how long I can last and how many I can take with me. If often makes me laugh when I inevitably get towered.
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Funny...I wonder why some guys won't answer the question.
I should have listed the assumptions but I thought the equal number or +1 would give everyone the furball or micro-furball visual image.
I am just interested in how folks prioritize the threat airspace.
The next thread will be me extracting your moves once the airspace collapses on you in your answers. Don't lie about your moves...I have films, lol
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Awareness or fighting?
shida,
Fighting. You cannot fight effectively without awareness....unless you mean you are using awareness to decide to avoid the conflict altogether. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
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Unlimited.
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Four is the most I've ever faced and defeated (fighters, not buffs or jabos) but I regularily find myself against 10 or more. WTH, it's just a game.
It seems we often share the same world LMAO
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I hit my SA saturation point sometime between clicking on the runway button to spawn in and wheels up.
His. Lmao :aok
Q
And I have yet to win or even show any competetive advantage in any 1v1 against wife ack.
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My SA is only limited by my ability to forego snapshot opportunities.
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1 is too much for me. :)
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shida,
Fighting. You cannot fight effectively without awareness....unless you mean you are using awareness to decide to avoid the conflict altogether. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
I find if in a proper ganging (4 or more) awareness becomes less relevant as being aware of them doesn't really help counter the numbers. However at such numbers you often find patterns which can help like bunching which can be effectively treated as one. Watch some Aikido randori vids and you can see the same patterns (and solutions).
I only know / knew a handful of AH players who deliberately seek fights with multiple opponents with a sub-e starting position. When I was doing it a lot I found the ground or sea a very useful ally. You have to know exactly where it is looking backwards even. I used to practice in off-peak hours scraping my wingtips but keeping the prop clear. You see many crashes if you can do this in a fight. You are looking for them to nose down for the shot.
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Depends on what you mean:
I lose track of individual aircraft starting around 3.
And by 6 I'm missing more than than half the guys that are putting holes in my canopy.
By about
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I find if in a proper ganging (4 or more) awareness becomes less relevant as being aware of them doesn't really help counter the numbers. However at such numbers you often find patterns which can help like bunching which can be effectively treated as one. Watch some Aikido randori vids and you can see the same patterns (and solutions).
I only know / knew a handful of AH players who deliberately seek fights with multiple opponents with a sub-e starting position. When I was doing it a lot I found the ground or sea a very useful ally. You have to know exactly where it is looking backwards even. I used to practice in off-peak hours scraping my wingtips but keeping the prop clear. You see many crashes if you can do this in a fight. You are looking for them to nose down for the shot.
Shida,
I have yet to see planes fly in triangular flight paths........ :neener:
Oh and I also don't think the collision model allows for any jitsu moves.... :O
:salute
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My limit, while low as it is, is variable depending upon what I am flying.
For instance, in a heavier aircraft (like a Jug), my options are pretty limited when dealing with bad guys... But put me in something really "turny", like one of the Zekes, and I find that I am able to stay out of the guns of more bad guys. I simply have more options in a bird like an A6M.
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1
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I can keep track of about 8 cons around me, except for trees. I always seem to hit the first tree I see.
semp
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I always seem to hit the first tree I see.
Wouldn't that actually be the last tree that you see? :bolt:
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Funny...I wonder why some guys won't answer the question.
I should have listed the assumptions but I thought the equal number or +1 would give everyone the furball or micro-furball visual image.
I am just interested in how folks prioritize the threat airspace.
The next thread will be me extracting your moves once the airspace collapses on you in your answers. Don't lie about your moves...I have films, lol
So Threat Air Space is how large or small....A 20K P51 outside of vis is a threat when im at 12k trying to keep 4 uppers down....
Heres a video of 10 guys running me down from 2 years ago...I had started this fight above their field and I was doing well keeping them down but in the end 10 climbing to meet me I guess "oversaturated" my SA and I had to dive away which was unsuccessful due to dweebs in LA7s and such. If I was smarter I would have look at my clipboard map and noticed no friends coming in as fast as I thought they would.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvVdHYtaoXA
These days I would have broke contact a lot sooner back to friends coming in because easier to survive....I would also probably be dead because my SA is really lazy these days....
Too many try hards to take a game too serious
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I absolutely LOVE situations like that where you can make 7 people overshoot with just 1 move! :x :x :devil
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If I'm on the offensive, 4-5. If I'm engaged and in an equal fight or on the defensive, maybe 2-3. A lot of it depends on my mood. Sometimes I will forego everything because I want to kill a certain plane. I know there are two others and they will likely get me soon if I keep ignoring them, but I want that (insert plane) that picked me or whatever. Then the game is getting him no matter what.
Other times I want to see how deep I can get and still get out alive. I'll certainly try and get hits when I can, but I want to beat the odds and get from totally screwed to a point where I can disengage if I choose. I'll often start into a furball with a little alt and E but usually can't resist the temptation to see how far I can push my luck.
They keep giving me free planes no matter how bad I screw up.
Often wonder what it looks like from the other side as one sortie I'm doing everything I can to survive after I am in too deep and the next sortie I'm ignoring the guy on my six pinging me because I want to take the wing off the plane on my 12 more than I care about making it out alive. Or I might just be trying to drop an egg on a certain whirble and fly past everything else to do so or something similar.
I judge plane types and E state first, then once we are mixing it up its more about guessing pilot capability and picking which ones I can take some chances with and which ones will likely pounce on any mistake.
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Most of the time..1 before I'm dead..sometimes less...there's always gravity, trees and mountains fighting me lol
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I have trouble with the runway... :bhead
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After watching some films that were taken over the last 12 months, I can't get past 5 cons...unless the numbers are even minus one (21 films...not a huge sample but now that I'm paying attention to it, it seems accurate).
Suggestions and discuss options...
I could JUGgle the entire pigs squad, all the while not going above 500' :aok
SA is easy when on the deck, you only have to look up!!
JUGgler
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Greed is my SA biggest handicap.
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I could JUGgle the entire pigs squad, all the while not going above 500' :aok
SA is easy when on the deck, you only have to look up!!
JUGgler
So you're completely vulnerable to ultra low high speed flying? Excellent :aok!
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As soon as there's a plane in front of me there's nothing behind me.
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Shida,
I have yet to see planes fly in triangular flight paths........ :neener:
Oh and I also don't think the collision model allows for any jitsu moves.... :O
:salute
Even without touching you know they are mostly going to pull for a shot if they can so that lets you visualize the relative movements. Is sticking hands a better analogy?
Junky's video demonstrates what I meant better than words, look at how they are competing with each other to get the kill, hence his epic reversal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvVdHYtaoXA
Boy Junky, you must have been wearing Eau de Gangtard by Calvin Klein that day!
SA is easy when on the deck, you only have to look up!!
^ this :aok
:salute
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It really depends on the opponents. I remember this one time when I fought 5 vs 1 in a brewster. I shot the 3 first down and ran out of ammo. The final two I killed by manouver deaths, they were so pissed at me that they lost all caution.
And then sometimes all it took was one opponent at disadvantage.
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I could JUGgle the entire pigs squad, all the while not going above 500' :aok
SA is easy when on the deck, you only have to look up!!
JUGgler
Do you even play these days? if so like to test your Juggling skillz?
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Do you even play these days? if so like to test your Juggling skillz?
Junky, was it you i tangled with a while back?
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I don't even sweat it anymore.
It's the mission that counts.
If it means approaching B17s dead six because they are about to drop on strats, I will take that opportunity rather than wait until after they drop.
If an enemy escort is on my six at the time, I will deal with him after I've taken a shot at my primary objective.
Same goes for deacking or strafing troops or killing the goon/m3.
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Do you even play these days? if so like to test your Juggling skillz?
juggler is just an internet warrior now. wait wasnt he always that?
semp
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My biggest issue is balancing attacks and defense. In a 1v1 im fine (its one or the other) but I get overloaded in 3v1s unless im in a like a A6M or a BREW. My main ride the p47 helps sorta because its hard to kill and I can afford to do risky things. I remember just today I was in a 2v6 and i was slow and a a6m got on my tail and i managed to do a tail slip and get him off me but this put me in a perfect shot for a p51 which took out my rudder and 1 elevator which put me a spin as it was hard to recover from the tail slip and the only reason i survived that fight is because they must have thought I was dead and i sneaked away low. If I could have pulled that tail slip just half a second later I would have had a perfect shot on the 51 but the a6m made me panic.
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My biggest issue is balancing attacks and defense. In a 1v1 im fine (its one or the other) but I get overloaded in 3v1s unless im in a like a A6M or a BREW. My main ride the p47 helps sorta because its hard to kill and I can afford to do risky things. I remember just today I was in a 2v6 and i was slow and a a6m got on my tail and i managed to do a tail slip and get him off me but this put me in a perfect shot for a p51 which took out my rudder and 1 elevator which put me a spin as it was hard to recover from the tail slip and the only reason i survived that fight is because they must have thought I was dead and i sneaked away low. If I could have pulled that tail slip just half a second later I would have had a perfect shot on the 51 but the a6m made me panic.
Sentences and paragraphs are your friends.
Holy run on sentence Batman!
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Junky, was it you i tangled with a while back?
I don't know :huh :noid
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Sentences and paragraphs are your friends.
Holy run on sentence Batman!
Holy it was late at night Batman!
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Only 3 or 4 right now. 15-16 years ago, 6 or 7. I'm just not as good anymore.
But more importantly, just 1 wife. :lol
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Only 3 or 4 right now. 15-16 years ago, 6 or 7. I'm just not as good anymore.
But more importantly, just 1 wife. :lol
HA!!!!
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Do you even play these days? if so like to test your Juggling skillz?
His pancake mix is old and moldy. Aunt Jemima would be disgusted... :aok
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2.
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3-4
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2 to engage somewhat effectively if they're working fairly well together. If they're working well to very well together, I generally die. 3 I can engage on a good day if they aren't working well together and just falling all over themselves trying to get the kill. 4 or more I have to get really lucky to engage them effectively pretty much no matter what they're doing.
Wiley.
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It really depends on what the cons are doing. If they are just bnzing ~4-5ish but if they are turn fighting then its more like 2 at best. I have the SA of Ray Charles though so I make a poor example.
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as many as there are around...its very rare I get killed by someone I never saw...it happens...just not often....
SA being my best "skill" I have no problem tracking cons, and deciding who is the most dangerous to me...
now if I could get my AIM "skill" up to par...I might be dangerous. :cry
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I can track any number of targets if they are just buzzing around, but if they are all shooting at me alone I think 3 is about the limit I can effectively combat at the same time.
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as many as there are around...its very rare I get killed by someone I never saw...it happens...just not often....
SA being my best "skill" I have no problem tracking cons, and deciding who is the most dangerous to me...
now if I could get my AIM "skill" up to par...I might be dangerous. :cry
ditto. also as baldeagl mentioned, i try and herd those cats into a more controllable sphere - and i'll often fake going on one to go after another. i'm always prioritizing threats.
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I’ve never counted but I would guess 2 or 3 if I’m in a furball.
This is just my gut instinct but I’ll throw this out there too.
If the cons are in angle fighting mode then tracking becomes more difficult. Usually there is one BnZ’er in the mix and you can forget about this con momentarily while they're extending (assuming you spoiled their shot). But if all 2 or 3 cons are working angles in close proximity there’s a great chance I’ll be kissing my tail section goodbye.
If your views are not setup well or if your hat switch buttons (for views) are not working 100% of the time then your SA will suck and tracking cons will be more difficult. I’ve often wondered if TrackIR would enhance SA.
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SA saturated but achieved my goal in both while surviving in the zero to land the kill. (it was crazily overmodeled at high altitude which allowed me to survive but the kill occurred at 100 feet agl. after the other 3 went to land)
There was no surviving in the 110 so I simply ignored the enemy and concentrated on killing the guy who ran two sectors from 30k over his strats when he found a fighter instead of tasty buffs.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6085/6098636085_ceef4821d3_b.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5028/5888520241_2cc03a88cd_b.jpg)
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I’ve never counted but I would guess 2 or 3 if I’m in a furball.
This is just my gut instinct but I’ll throw this out there too.
If the cons are in angle fighting mode then tracking becomes more difficult. Usually there is one BnZ’er in the mix and you can forget about this con momentarily while they're extending (assuming you spoiled their shot). But if all 2 or 3 cons are working angles in close proximity there’s a great chance I’ll be kissing my tail section goodbye.
If your views are not setup well or if your hat switch buttons (for views) are not working 100% of the time then your SA will suck and tracking cons will be more difficult. I’ve often wondered if TrackIR would enhance SA.
I've used TrackIR for years now. I like it...but is my SA better?
I would argue it's worse than when I used a hat switch when I first started. I had it down to where I could "scan" the entire visible airspace in less than two second, would do so every 10-15 seconds and so constantly get a snapshot of the surrounding environment. Now? I tend to do it every 15-25 seconds and it takes longer to move my head. Sadly, once one goes to TrackIR its hard to go back....I don't regret doing so...but in my case I would argue it has not helped.
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I've used TrackIR for years now. I like it...but is my SA better?
I would argue it's worse than when I used a hat switch when I first started. I had it down to where I could "scan" the entire visible airspace in less than two second, would do so every 10-15 seconds and so constantly get a snapshot of the surrounding environment. Now? I tend to do it every 15-25 seconds and it takes longer to move my head. Sadly, once one goes to TrackIR its hard to go back....I don't regret doing so...but in my case I would argue it has not helped.
That's a very interesting idea I'd never really thought about. For me, it definitely helped me track one bandit much, much better than I could with the hat but I do agree that a hat scan of the surrounding area could likely be done faster than using TrackIR.
Sure wish you could save hat views when you're using TrackIR.
Wiley.
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I should have mentioned I have no problem following ONE target....as you say it helps greatly with that and with doing things like looking over the nose of the plane to take a shot.