Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: pervert on December 03, 2013, 11:48:59 AM
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So I shot a wirb 4 times in the turret last night with a stuka, thats 8 rounds of depleted uraniuam vs 16mm of armour and 3? germans, it smoked it but it was fine and happily shot away, it only confirms to me that this thing has no modelling for crew loading and firing it, if thats the case HTC should do away with PWs and PKs for all aircraft.
(http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/SP-guns/GE165c.jpg)
See all those happy chappys sitting in there? Well they should all die quite easily...if they are there that is :/
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Hmmm, Russians had DU rounds in the 40s? Fascinating.
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So I shot a wirb 4 times in the turret last night with a stuka, thats 8 rounds of depleted uraniuam vs 16mm of armour and 3? germans, it smoked it but it was fine and happily shot away, it only confirms to me that this thing has no modelling for crew loading and firing it, if thats the case HTC should do away with PWs and PKs for all aircraft.
(http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/SP-guns/GE165c.jpg)
See all those happy chappys sitting in there? Well they should all die quite easily...if they are there that is :/
+1 need crew modeled in, Ive strafed them hundreds of times getting sprites on the top where the crew should be without impacting the wirbel at all.
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I've popped the turret of a Wirble with a .5 second burst of 20mm fire from an A6M3...
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Sounds like an engine hit instead of a turret hit. Were there supps out? I do think it would be nice to see individual smoke from the turrets of vehicles and the engine compartments.
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I can see pervert's point. The flak panzie is an open top AV with an exposed crew so taking out the turret should incapacitate the crew.
ack-ack
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Hmmm, Russians had DU rounds in the 40s? Fascinating.
Hmmm, Russians flew the Ju-87 Stuka? ;) :rolleyes: :neener:
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+1 need crew modeled in, Ive strafed them hundreds of times getting sprites on the top where the crew should be without impacting the wirbel at all.
Very odd. Putting rounds into the turret from above (instead of hitting the turret's armor) always does the trick for me
However, Pervet's problem may be the guy who pretended to sell him "depleted uranium" rounds :P
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Very odd. Putting rounds into the turret from above (instead of hitting the turret's armor) always does the trick for me
However, Pervet's problem may be the guy who pretended to sell him "depleted uranium" rounds :P
He was building a time machine.
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Hmmm, Russians flew the Ju-87 Stuka? ;) :rolleyes: :neener:
Germans didn't have depleted uranium rounds either.
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The 3,7 BK AP round's core is Tungsten carbide or "Wolfram Karbid".
You should be able to stand off at 1000-1200 and punch holes in a wirbel. At least the ones offline at 1200 blow up or the turret is destroyed from single rounds. Online I've seen wirbels withstand some amazing punishment unless I'm the one manning the warble. Then it's made out of cardboard. 50cal and 20mm destroy my turret all the time. Offline a single Yak9T round will destroy the turret on a wirbel. Then from 70-90 degrees a single shot to the engine hatch will kill the wirbel. After an hour offline that's the damage order I discovered to killing a wirbel with a yak9t. Can't find an enemy wirbel yet online who will allow me to do that to him. Don't try it with a P39 this way. Found it took 4 direct hits from the side at close range to kill the wirbel. I could never crack the engine hatch.
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The 3,7 BK AP round's core is Tungsten carbide or "Wolfram Karbid".
You should be able to stand off at 1000-1200 and punch holes in a wirbel. At least the ones offline at 1200 blow up or the turret is destroyed from single rounds. Online I've seen wirbels withstand some amazing punishment unless I'm the one manning the warble. Then it's made out of cardboard. 50cal and 20mm destroy my turret all the time. Offline a single Yak9T round will destroy the turret on a wirbel. Then from 70-90 degrees a single shot to the engine hatch will kill the wirbel. After an hour offline that's the damage order I discovered to killing a wirbel with a yak9t. Can't find an enemy wirbel yet online who will allow me to do that to him. Don't try it with a P39 this way. Found it took 4 direct hits from the side at close range to kill the wirbel. I could never crack the engine hatch.
You and me both, on all accounts :lol
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The 3,7 BK AP round's core is Tungsten carbide or "Wolfram Karbid".
You should be able to stand off at 1000-1200 and punch holes in a wirbel. At least the ones offline at 1200 blow up or the turret is destroyed from single rounds. Online I've seen wirbels withstand some amazing punishment unless I'm the one manning the warble. Then it's made out of cardboard. 50cal and 20mm destroy my turret all the time. Offline a single Yak9T round will destroy the turret on a wirbel. Then from 70-90 degrees a single shot to the engine hatch will kill the wirbel. After an hour offline that's the damage order I discovered to killing a wirbel with a yak9t. Can't find an enemy wirbel yet online who will allow me to do that to him. Don't try it with a P39 this way. Found it took 4 direct hits from the side at close range to kill the wirbel. I could never crack the engine hatch.
QFT
Actually there quite ridiculous and never mis my G2 I've seen them take 5, 6, shots... thats 10-12 bullets. If the were so good they would have been every where during the war. Bout 150 were made. :confused:
Try taking a g2 and sneaking around through the trees and surprize the wirble :aok
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QFT
Actually there quite ridiculous and never mis my G2 I've seen them take 5, 6, shots... thats 10-12 bullets. If the were so good they would have been every where during the war. Bout 150 were made. :confused:
Try taking a g2 and sneaking around through the trees and surprize the wirble :aok
It isn't hard to kill something once you learn how to aim properly. :D I've killed planes with jeeps and sometimes gotten an m3 as a decoy/my own resupply machine :rock
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QFT
Actually there quite ridiculous and never mis my G2 I've seen them take 5, 6, shots... thats 10-12 bullets. If the were so good they would have been every where during the war. Bout 150 were made. :confused:
Try taking a g2 and sneaking around through the trees and surprize the wirble :aok
The wirbles were excellent weapons, the equal of any other AA vehicle of the war. The big difference between real life and Aces High is that pilots didn't target the AA vehicles, didn't fly directly overhead of them, didn't stay nose on for 1000m, didn't usually keep making passes after their plane took a good beating, and generally didn't act like idiots.
Unless its mostly wirbs in the mix, I can easily drop all my ordnance and make repeated strafing passes in my 190F8 at any vehicle spawn. Why? Because I'm not a moron.
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I can see pervert's point. The flak panzie is an open top AV with an exposed crew so taking out the turret should incapacitate the crew.
ack-ack
Well are you talking the entire crew? If so the answer is no.
The driver was sealed off from the rest of the crew in his own little abode.
I have experimented off line & one .50 cal inside the top of the turret will smoke it.
Granted I was right beside it in a M3.
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The wirbles were excellent weapons, the equal of any other AA vehicle of the war. The big difference between real life and Aces High is that pilots didn't target the AA vehicles,
Not so American pilots absolutely looked for flack panzers first.
Once they were out of the way the entire tank unit was meat on the table.
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Not so American pilots absolutely looked for flack panzers first.
Once they were out of the way the entire tank unit was meat on the table.
So unlike in the game, they could actually see the Wirbles before getting shot down by them.
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If there was a turret crew, a burst of .30 should take out the crew. Imagine 100 .30-06 bullets going into that open turret.
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If there was a turret crew, a burst of .30 should take out the crew. Imagine 100 .30-06 bullets going into that open turret.
It does.
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Well are you talking the entire crew? If so the answer is no.
The driver was sealed off from the rest of the crew in his own little abode.
I have experimented off line & one .50 cal inside the top of the turret will smoke it.
Granted I was right beside it in a M3.
The wirb I hit was from behind after I watched it shooting at another plane, I hit it perfectly in the rear of the turret smoking it, as I flew on past it has just fine apart from the smoke and proceeded to shoot the s$$t out of me, I just find it a complete joke I can 1 shot kill a lot of tanks with a dedicated tank buster's uber guns (I will drop the DU gag for the sake of any nerds reading) but I cannot kill the crew of an open top flak with it, I call BS, I think its been modelled like that as a concession to the GV crowd same as the 600yd range.
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Why? Because I'm not a moron.
Fooled Me,
:cheers:
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The wirb I hit was from behind after I watched it shooting at another plane, I hit it perfectly in the rear of the turret smoking it, as I flew on past it has just fine apart from the smoke and proceeded to shoot the s$$t out of me, I just find it a complete joke I can 1 shot kill a lot of tanks with a dedicated tank buster's uber guns (I will drop the DU gag for the sake of any nerds reading) but I cannot kill the crew of an open top flak with it, I call BS, I think its been modelled like that as a concession to the GV crowd same as the 600yd range.
Don't jump to conclusions. Perhaps HTC didn't have the resources or system capacity to do what is being asked now.
Those who jump to conclusions first, end up getting shot first.
I do agree that it is wrong, and should be fixed. But please don't assume why things are the way they are.
:salute
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but I cannot kill the crew of an open top flak with it, I call BS, I think its been modelled like that as a concession to the GV crowd same as the 600yd range.
And I call BS on the usual conspiracy theory reflex :)
I just took up a Ju-87G and did several runs against Wirbel turrets. Each turret hit had invariably the same result:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/hit1_zps4746c54f.jpg)
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/result1_zps7e909414.jpg)
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/hit2_zps8f90ae77.jpg)
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/result2_zps2f628d1a.jpg)
Did a few more from even farther out, same results as long as I hit the turret (had some problems doing that, I'm not really used to that plane/gun)
So yes, you can bust WW turrets with a hit in the side in the Ju-87G. Now we (or better: HTC) would have to see your film to see what the actual issue was.
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Offline snail?
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Offline snail?
Yes, offline with MA settings except ammo count.
And before anything starts: There is no different damage model offline. We used offline tests in the pasts to find GV armor bugs together with Pyro (for example the top armor impact angle bug).
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Yes, offline with MA settings except ammo count.
And before anything starts: There is no different damage model offline. We used offline tests in the pasts to find GV armor bugs together with Pyro (for example the top armor impact angle bug).
Well wtg you have proved absolutely nothing there, offline I (and anyone else) can 1 shot kill every GV on the field including the wirb with con-sumate ease in a Stuka. Now go to the MA and try your test its a whole different ballgame
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Well wtg you have proved absolutely nothing there, offline I (and anyone else) can 1 shot kill every GV on the field including the wirb with con-sumate ease in a Stuka. Now go to the MA and try your test its a whole different ballgame
Oh my...
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The Wirblewind, Ostwind, and M16 are very easy to damage. IMO, it is too easy. Even the Oscar with its paired .50 cal MG's can turret any of those three AA platforms well enough. Just get enough shots on target and "puuf".
I have yet to not have a hit from my Stuka G-2, Hurricane IID, or IL-2 (I use 23mm), not disable the turret of any of those three. The same goes for most every other fighter I've used as well. Just get the shots in to the turret and that is all it takes (need to hit the gun). I have hit the turret armor while in low angle shallow dive and not disabled it, but that has to do with the armor doing its job and not getting enough shots on target.
The thing with the Stuka G-2 and Hurricane IID (and ultimately the IL-2 as well), is to be patient and take only accurate shots. Get the convergence to 275 or 300, and WAIT until you have a good gun solution on the target. Don't bother firing at 600 yards unless you're in the IL-2 with plenty of ammo and you have the "spray and pray" mentality with the goal of damaging a turret and not destroying the vehicle instead.
Shot for shot, I've found the Stuka G-2 to be the most effective at busting tanks. I don't know if it because of the projectile composition or the weight/velocity thing, or both. Maybe it could be an accuracy thing, trajectory related, I don't know. Finding actual data or rather the correct data on the German BK 37mm is difficult, I'm not sure which ammo it is using either. Is our G-2 using the APCR or regular AP?
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Fooled Me,
:cheers:
Obviously never seen me in my F8 at a tank spawn :noid :noid.
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The wirb I hit was from behind after I watched it shooting at another plane, I hit it perfectly in the rear of the turret smoking it, as I flew on past it has just fine apart from the smoke and proceeded to shoot the s$$t out of me, I just find it a complete joke I can 1 shot kill a lot of tanks with a dedicated tank buster's uber guns (I will drop the DU gag for the sake of any nerds reading) but I cannot kill the crew of an open top flak with it, I call BS, I think its been modelled like that as a concession to the GV crowd same as the 600yd range.
Some film I think is needed to see what is going on. :aok
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So unlike in the game, they could actually see the Wirbles before getting shot down by them.
Well? :D
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/knipselw_zps30d7deb7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/knipselw_zps30d7deb7.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/123_140_zps9b0ee9de.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/123_140_zps9b0ee9de.jpg.html)
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Well wtg you have proved absolutely nothing there, offline I (and anyone else) can 1 shot kill every GV on the field including the wirb with con-sumate ease in a Stuka. Now go to the MA and try your test its a whole different ballgame
I think that proves everything actually.
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Some film I think is needed to see what is going on. :aok
I will keep the film running but probably a better idea would be a proper test in a custom arena if I can get a volunteer who is bored enough.
I think that proves everything actually.
Yes, offline with MA settings except ammo count.
And before anything starts: There is no different damage model offline. We used offline tests in the pasts to find GV armor bugs together with Pyro (for example the top armor impact angle bug).
You've given me a 'test' exactly as I have described in earlier in the thread! Can you read? Go back and read it, so yes I got the turret smoking by shooting it in the turret but it still fires regardless and still smokes regardless, this is not a one off its prettty common, how do you know exactly what damage you did to the wirb offline know it all?
"And I call BS on the usual conspiracy theory reflex" this is laughable, like HTC have not made concessions to the GV crowd by reducing the visible range I mean its pretty clear to anyone with a brain that it was to make it easier to GV thats why it happened, but knowing that you think it was improbable that it might do the same in other areas :rolleyes:
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I will keep the film running but probably a better idea would be a proper test in a custom arena if I can get a volunteer who is bored enough.
You've given me a 'test' exactly as I have described in earlier in the thread! Can you read? Go back and read it, so yes I got the turret smoking by shooting it in the turret but it still fires regardless and still smokes regardless, this is not a one off its prettty common, how do you know exactly what damage you did to the wirb offline know it all?
"And I call BS on the usual conspiracy theory reflex" this is laughable, like HTC have not made concessions to the GV crowd by reducing the visible range I mean its pretty clear to anyone with a brain that it was to make it easier to GV thats why it happened, but knowing that you think it was improbable that it might do the same in other areas :rolleyes:
Concessions to the gv crowd? You think they put the icons where they are to appease the gv crowd? Seriously? I think the icons STILL favor aircraft.
Um... if the wirby is smoking and it is still firing then 1 of 2 things (or both) is occurring: possibly you didn't damage the turret but rather the engine. It happens, trust me. The smoke appears to rise up in the same place. Or, it is the front hull MG that it firing for decoy purposes. That happens a lot too. I do a LOT of testing of tank guns, tank armor, etc, using both HE and AP rounds, and try and determine a "hit point" value for some gv's. It take but a few pings from a .30 cal MG to render the gun on the Wirby, Osty, or M16 damaged and unusable. A single 20mm hit will render the gun damaged. Put enough damage INSIDE the turret and you can destroy the unit if you hit the hull enough.
Dont be so quick to point fingers and make broad swipes at the intelligence of HTC or certain players who test and test this stuff again. Offline, online, MA, TA, etc. You're not the first to bring this up and wont be the last.
Now... suck it up cupcake and go enjoy the game and may you have the serenity to accept the things YOU can not change, the courage to change the things YOU can, and the wisdom to know the difference. OK? :aok
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Shot for shot, I've found the Stuka G-2 to be the most effective at busting tanks. I don't know if it because of the projectile composition or the weight/velocity thing, or both. Maybe it could be an accuracy thing, trajectory related, I don't know.
My guess that's because of collimator gunsight on ju87.
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Ok gotta admit with wirbel and osti I don't know if I have caused the turret to smoke or the engine to smoke half the time. This is even with 50cal and 20mm. I know the engine hatch is 11mm armor and the rear end is 20mm armor for the panzer chassis that both flack are mounted to. But the chances of hitting at other than an angle from defelction off the turret or during a diving attack is miniscule.
With the IL2 generally I dive from about 3k above them and shoot to disable the gun. On the few occasions I use a shallow attack, about half I've watched all of my hit sprites be into the turret, get the flaker smoking. Then as I pull off, it cuts my wing off. This happens enough with lone flakers without supplies around to cause me to wonder. Then again the 37mm could be deflecting down into the engine compartment.
Pervert, just like you filmed the D9 radiator bug. This looks like another film session for you. Every D9 pilot in my squad thanks you for your earlier service to the game.
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The wirbles were excellent weapons, the equal of any other AA vehicle of the war.
No not quite the Germans stopped making them for the Ostwind because it was found to be a better AA platform. :aok
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No not quite the Germans stopped making them for the Ostwind because it was found to be a better AA platform. :aok
Valid point. But it was still an exellent weapon.
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Perv leave me a message in pms and ill come be a target for ya in custom arena :aok
I too have hit wirbs in top of turret seen them smoke pulled away to get wing sawn off by the same smoking wirb.
Maybe if it is deflecting into the engine and causing that to smoke a different colour smoke for different critical components hit would help. Say black for engine and grey for turrets maybe ?
EatG
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Never mind been covered
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You sure it wasn't the pintle that got you after you passed? That happens very regularly, I've put enough of the pintle's rounds in many planes head on and going away. Rather easy to do, but of course the angle is limited. Or as mentioned, you got the engine?
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I think it might be a problem with the hit packets being lost/delayed....
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Concessions to the gv crowd? You think they put the icons where they are to appease the gv crowd? Seriously? I think the icons STILL favor aircraft.
Um... if the wirby is smoking and it is still firing then 1 of 2 things (or both) is occurring: possibly you didn't damage the turret but rather the engine. It happens, trust me. The smoke appears to rise up in the same place. Or, it is the front hull MG that it firing for decoy purposes. That happens a lot too. I do a LOT of testing of tank guns, tank armor, etc, using both HE and AP rounds, and try and determine a "hit point" value for some gv's. It take but a few pings from a .30 cal MG to render the gun on the Wirby, Osty, or M16 damaged and unusable. A single 20mm hit will render the gun damaged. Put enough damage INSIDE the turret and you can destroy the unit if you hit the hull enough.
Dont be so quick to point fingers and make broad swipes at the intelligence of HTC or certain players who test and test this stuff again. Offline, online, MA, TA, etc. You're not the first to bring this up and wont be the last.
Now... suck it up cupcake and go enjoy the game and may you have the serenity to accept the things YOU can not change, the courage to change the things YOU can, and the wisdom to know the difference. OK? :aok
Dear God, I'm getting all teary eyed there thanks for the life changing advice :aok
The first clue to the crew not being modelled as a crew would be...they aren't actually there, ever wondered how someone got an instant pilot kill on an aircraft? thats because it hit the pilot right in the head, there are hit zones mapped onto the 3d model, now lets look at the location of the crew. The only place I can imagine a round possibly not killing a member of the crew is a centre strike on the gun from the front at a low angle, every other angle from the top or a round pentrating the turret is going to kill at least one of the crew
(http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/SP-guns/GE165c.jpg)
You could say if it was modelled with a crew that even a chuted guy with a .45 could headshot the crew completely disabling the wirb, I find it interesting that in your passage you also seem to be in denial of the need for a crew. You could say that vehicle supplies for a wirb fixing the gun also proves the non existence of the crew in the modelling, or you could look at it for what it is a concession for GVers (air supplys anyone?), or a clandestine person resurrection kit.
Perv leave me a message in pms and ill come be a target for ya in custom arena :aok
You might regret that :D but I'll take you up on that offer Eat when I have the time I will test it and post the results here. Maybe I'm wrong and they are modelled like people but just invisible I guess we will find out.
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Dear God, I'm getting all teary eyed there thanks for the life changing advice :aok
The first clue to the crew not being modelled as a crew would be...they aren't actually there, ever wondered how someone got an instant pilot kill on an aircraft? thats because it hit the pilot right in the head, there are hit zones mapped onto the 3d model, now lets look at the location of the crew. The only place I can imagine a round possibly not killing a member of the crew is a centre strike on the gun from the front at a low angle, every other angle from the top or a round pentrating the turret is going to kill at least one of the crew
(http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/SP-guns/GE165c.jpg)
You could say if it was modelled with a crew that even a chuted guy with a .45 could headshot the crew completely disabling the wirb, I find it interesting that in your passage you also seem to be in denial of the need for a crew. You could say that vehicle supplies for a wirb fixing the gun also proves the non existence of the crew in the modelling, or you could look at it for what it is a concession for GVers (air supplys anyone?), or a clandestine person resurrection kit.
You might regret that :D but I'll take you up on that offer Eat when I have the time I will test it and post the results here. Maybe I'm wrong and they are modelled like people but just invisible I guess we will find out.
I still do not understand. You put a couple of rounds into the open turret of a wirble and you take out the turret. Admittedly this is not as easy as it sounds when flying at several hundred miles an hour, but if a round or two makes it into the top of the turret, you smoke it.
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Dear God, I'm getting all teary eyed there thanks for the life changing advice :aok
The first clue to the crew not being modelled as a crew would be...they aren't actually there, ever wondered how someone got an instant pilot kill on an aircraft? thats because it hit the pilot right in the head, there are hit zones mapped onto the 3d model, now lets look at the location of the crew. The only place I can imagine a round possibly not killing a member of the crew is a centre strike on the gun from the front at a low angle, every other angle from the top or a round pentrating the turret is going to kill at least one of the crew
(http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/SP-guns/GE165c.jpg)
You could say if it was modelled with a crew that even a chuted guy with a .45 could headshot the crew completely disabling the wirb, I find it interesting that in your passage you also seem to be in denial of the need for a crew. You could say that vehicle supplies for a wirb fixing the gun also proves the non existence of the crew in the modelling, or you could look at it for what it is a concession for GVers (air supplys anyone?), or a clandestine person resurrection kit.
You might regret that :D but I'll take you up on that offer Eat when I have the time I will test it and post the results here. Maybe I'm wrong and they are modelled like people but just invisible I guess we will find out.
Lets look at the picture below for a moment shall we.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/GE165c_zpsd44d63a1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/GE165c_zpsd44d63a1.jpg.html)
Ask yourself what would this Wirbel be doing in this particular instant if it was in real life combat? Shooting at planes? I think not. It would be in a ground attack situation & not because of the obvious that the guns are not pointing up.
The problem is we have a ground mode attack vehicle in AHII all the time that happens to shoot at aircraft as well. So let me explain that with a few flack vehicle photos.
Air attack mode.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img189_zpsdc22e210.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img189_zpsdc22e210.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img131_zpsbc69c706.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/img131_zpsbc69c706.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/123_140_zps9b0ee9de.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/123_140_zps9b0ee9de.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/mobelwagen-02_zps5477114a.png) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/mobelwagen-02_zps5477114a.png.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/015_zps80a13f13.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/015_zps80a13f13.jpg.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxmLdSgI8wU
See a pattern?
The vehicles are always stopped & they always have people standing near the gunners & outside of the turret looking for targets. Why?
Because all the speed call outs & ranges were communicated to the gunner & the people who may have had to adjust the sight based off of those call outs so it could hit said targets.
In the AHII Wirbel we have this sight.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2cm20Flak3820Optics204_zps851904ed.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/2cm20Flak3820Optics204_zps851904ed.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Flakvisier38-19Sm_zpsbb52390d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Flakvisier38-19Sm_zpsbb52390d.jpg.html)
One problem with this is no Wirbel ever had them they had this sight.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/22wl2_zpsa01f9ad0.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/22wl2_zpsa01f9ad0.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/aa-sight-30-38_zps12e7682b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/aa-sight-30-38_zps12e7682b.jpg.html)
As you can see knobs & dials to adjust so the target could be hit. I think that adjustments were done by the gunner & possibly may have been done by some one standing outside of the turret making adjustments as so the gunner could just keep the target in his sight.
Ground attack mode.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Wirbelwind_Stoumont_zpsbb8c03fe.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Ostwind%20Wirbelwind/Wirbelwind_Stoumont_zpsbb8c03fe.jpg.html)
Not a lot of photos when these things are in ground attack mode. That aside you can see every one is inside the turret & no one with range finding binoculars standing outside.
So what to do with this info :headscratch: Well maybe a crew should be programmed in to the Wirbel :aok & some of that crew should be outside of that flack panzer turret as well. Kill the crew outside no main gun. Crew standing outside of the turret gun is working. The only time the crew is visible is when the Wirbel stops & also the only time when the quad 20MM's can fire when in the AA gun sight. If the flack panzer has engine damage then & only then will the Wirbel smoke. Also since the Wirbel & Ostwind had two gun sights one for the ground war & one for air warfare the option of both being available could also determine if outside spotter crew is seen or not.
My two cents worth.