Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bloom25 on January 28, 2001, 03:52:00 AM
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I just spent the last 4 hours working on a little bit of statistics for the "Top 30" pilots judged by overall ranking.
Here's what I did: I wrote down all of the kills each of these 30 pilots had in every type of fighter, the number of deaths in each fighter, the number of top 30 pilots getting kills in each fighter type, the number of top 30 pilots getting a death in each fighter type, and the overall k/d for the top 30 for each fighter.
(Note: I made no adjustments at all to the data. I simply recorded the kills in and deaths in numbers for each fighter for each of the top 30 pilots as of 9:00 PST 1-27-1. This means K/d will likely be slightly lower than the actual totals due to death by vehicles, bombers, and flak gunners.)
The data is VERY INTERESTING to say the least.
Here are the results:
(k/d, frequency of top 30 pilots gaining at least 1 kill and/or 1 death in this aircraft.)
a6m5 : 1.9484, 19
me109f4: 1.775, 10
me109g2: 2.2375, 10
me109g6: 2.1, 10
me109g10: 3.169, 22
c202: .88, 8
c205: 1.6154, 10
f4u-1c: 5.031, 27
f4u-1d: 2.148, 23
f6f5: 2.4775, 25
fw190a5: 1.976, 16
fw190a8: 2.506, 13
la5fn: 2.071, 22
n1k2: 3.1495, 23
p38l: 2.6758, 17
p47d25: 2.0625, 6
p47d30: 2.12037, 16
p51d: 3.8482, 22
seafire: 1.8244, 20
spit9: 3.6666, 11
spit5: 3.7155, 16
typhoon: 2.272, 21
yak9u: 2.9818, 13
Ok, you've all seen the raw data now. Here's what makes this data special: The data all comes from the same 30 players. Theoretically if all the planes were balanced the kill to death should be near each other.
It's also interesting to note the number of "top 30" pilots who have flown a combat mission that resulted in either a kill or a death in each plane type. (In other words, 27 out of 30 of the top ranked players flew the f4u-1c for at least 1 sortie.)
I've now developed a ranking system using the following formula: (frequency/30)*(kills/deaths). (Ex. The f4u1c had 27 top 30 pilots use it so far this tour. The formula would thus be (27/30)*5.031 = 4.5279.
) The reason for the ratio preceding the k/d is to even out variances due to lack of use of one type over another.
The results:
a6m5: 1.234
c202: .2346
c205: .53846
f4u1c: 4.5279
f4u1d: 1.6468
f6f5: 2.0646
fw190a5: 1.0538
fw190a8: 1.0859
la5fn: 1.5187
n1k2: 2.4146
p38l: 1.5163
p47d25: .4125
p47d30: 1.1308
p51d: 2.8220
seafire: 1.2163
spitfire9: 1.3444
spitfire5: 1.9816
typhoon: 1.5904
yak9u: 1.2921
IMO the data is directly comparable at this point for the most part. Since I didn't take ground, flak gunner, or bomber kills into account the cannon armed fighters are probably a little underrated. (Very little though IMO.)
My thinking at this point is that if 2 pilots of generally equal skill met in these respective planes under basically co-e conditions, the average chances of winning for each pilot is (his planes ranking/opponents planes ranking). If you actually try this out it generally predicts the winner. In the cases where it fails I believe that is due to the fact that some planes are only flown by experten in this version for the most part.
Whew, that was a lot of work. I hope we can draw some meaningful conclusions from this. (Or maybe I'm completely wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Very nice work bloom.
What percentage of the top 30 players fly the same plane for at least 90% of them time? I would assume the top 30 would have a single ride, unless they need to do something their ride doesnt do as well.
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Hi
Im really sorry for doing this but why the hell does chog always manage to score the highest in whatever statistical category we come up with. Really maybe thats what can be drawn from this date, that there is just something screwey bout that damn plane and how it fits within the planeset. Compare that dhog, which is supposedly the exact same plane save armament, plus the fact that only 200 were ever made and saw limited service, sorry it just really pisses me off that such a abysmally insignificant plane in RL completly dominates this entire game. Its a Golly-geen pathetic disgrace. It really pisses me off.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Quite a work, bloom.
Some Questions that arise in my mind...
1. (frequency/30)*(K/D). I can't really agree on this (f/30)*(K/D). If we really wants to make ratio preceding for variance reduction,
(sorties in the plane / total sorties of 30 pilots)*(K/D) should be used.
The final ranking of F4u is far superior than spit9, Which I think wrong... (what if total sortie of F4u is less than Spit9? then the (persons/30) makes wrong result. )
2. Total Kill numbers of plane X
Total Death numbers of plane X
of 30 pilots ;
are not enough? I can't really understand why we need to even out variances of a type on another... IF we really want to even it out, IMO, frequently used plane should be 'Less' counted. Top 30 pilots are of course good ones. If they fly more, they will surely get more Kills than Deaths.
So If they fly a plane regularly, Its ranking should be reduced.
Indeed, I think the MAIN difference of those ratios between planes are mainly from this reason ; they prefer some planes. The preferred planes gets more K/D ratio.
(Btw, still c hog seems to have much higher K/D)
We cannot just sum up or compare those ones....
eh... just my 20 cents. Maybe I'm thinking on wrong way... :>
tailight
-lyun-
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What Taillights said. There are some guys in the top 30 who only flew 1 or 2 sorties in the Chog or other planes.
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With regards to rankings I think there is something screwy. When I sorted the ranked players according to fighter ranking the #1 pilot is lumpi96 who had 1 sorty, no kills and was killed during his sorty. He hasnt been in a fiter since yet he is #1.
-Ding
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The ranking and scoring system is completely wrong for some guys.
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Interesting stuff Bloom.
I don't think the % of use, in combination with K/D, helps the data much though.
The P-47d25 and the P-47d30 have about the same K/D among these guys, but the 30 is flown by 2.66 times as many folks as the 25. That doesn't make it 2.66 times better, however.
Also, some folks fly different planes for different purposes.
If people tend to use the Jugs for Jabo more often than other planes, it's going to screw up the Jugs K/D.
I (and my squad) often use the A6M for base defence. As a result I(we) get vulched in it alot. If many of the top 30 view the Zero in the same manner, its K/D will be somewhat screwed.
Also, one person with a so-so K/D can screw-up the overall K/D of a particular ride if they fly it often. I.E. if one guy flew over 50% of the 205 sorties, and he had a K/D of 1.0, the 205's K/D would be misrepresented.
It would be interesting to look at the K/D of the favorite rides of the top 20 Fighter and top 20 Attack pilots. I.E. The P-51 was chosen over 50% of the time by 3 pilots with a K/D of 5.14, ...F4U1-C by 9 pilots with a K/D of 7.33, etc.
eskimo
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A couple of things: 1) I used the overall ranks, not fighter ranks. This was to avoid the "one sortie" wonder pilots. 2) I think my ranking system better describes the perceived usefulness of each of the fighter types. It does take into account the k/d and the number of top 30 pilots using the plane. On second thought, I'm thinking perhaps the root(frequency/30)*k/d would be a little better. This wouldn't effect planes like the p47d25 so badly.
There are some real oddities in the "top 30" pilots scores. Some of them do tend to stick to a single type and do very well in it. Then there are the people who get a huge k/d in a varient of a fighter and can't even manage a k/d over 1 in another varient of the same fighter.
I have all the data in a spreadsheet, but there is just too much to post here. (117 columns worth.)
Here is the total number of kills scored in each of the types for the "top 30" pilots:
a6m5: 982
me109f4: 142
me109g2: 179
me109g6: 84
me109g10: 431
c202: 22
c205: 21
f4u1c: 3904
f4u1d: 464
f6f5: 1024
fw190a5: 247
fw190a8: 426
la5fn: 350
n1k2: 1222
p38l: 586
p47d25: 33
p47d30: 226
p51d: 461
seafire: 239
spit9: 352
spit5: 431
typhoon: 284
yak9u: 164
I'll give you one more number and you can draw your own conclusions: The f4u1c scored 31.80707186% of all the TOTAL kills among the top 30 pilots.
I'll see if I can give you a graph of the number of kills scored in the f4u1c among the top 30 pilots. (Note: I didn't keep track of names, only stats.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Ok, here's some data generated by my Statgraphics software:
Percentiles for f4u1c kills
1.0% = 3.0
5.0% = 7.0
10.0% = 7.0
25.0% = 28.0
50.0% = 70.0
75.0% = 224.0
90.0% = 506.0
95.0% = 508.0
99.0% = 561.0
Basically this says that on average the top 30 pilots had 70 kills in the f4u1c.
(The max is 561 and the minimum is 3 out of the 27 pilots who used it.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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The number of kills per plane is interesting.
I don't understand what the F4U percentiles represent... can you explain?
eskimo
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Eheh, look at those C-Hogs and Nikis figures. Looks like we have tons of uber-ride-dweebs amongst the top scorers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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What Taillights said. There are some guys in the top 30 who only flew 1 or 2 sorties in the Chog or other planes.
So what you are saying funked is that guys who only fly a couple of missions in the CHog are still able to maintain an overall 5:1 k/d ratio with the aircraft, even though they are unfamiliar with it?
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Don't forget that the CHOG is a very popular jabo platform. Combined with its large ammo load, this means that the C-hog is often involved in vulching scenarios. This is bound to greatly increase the number of kills gained by the plane, in extremly low-risk non-ACM situations. I think that this contributes greatly to the perception of the -1C's supremacy.
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CC that BigBen.
The Buccaneers refer to the F4U-1C as the
"VulchHog".
eskimo
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And vulching is a cheap way of getting kills, perfect for the tshjook unskilled socalled pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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Point taken eskimo, but also remember that all fighter types are often involved in vulching. In addition, only the c hog and typhoon actively go after oswinds with guns. This IMO will result in a k/d less than 5 most certainly.
As for the 30+% figure, that means that among the "top 30" ranked pilots almost 1/3 of their TOTAL fighter kills were scored in the c hog.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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"Overall" ranking means squat IMO.
If you want to sort statistics, look at the stats and not overall rankings. Some guys could care less about bombers, or vehicles, or ships (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vila <Flying Pigs>
Oink! Oink! To War!
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Vila I would tend to agree with you here. One particular example I can think of is NathBDP. He is a better fighter pilot than most of these "top 30" pilots. The reason I chose overall rankings is because of a few reasons: 1. Often times the number 1 ranking will go to someone who only flew 1 sortie in a fighter total. 2. The overall rankings are more of a measure of overall success in the game. I would think that those who rank high on this list are the most proficient in the game.
Originally I had planned to do the entire top 100, but it was just WAY too much work. Hopefully I can expand the data later.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Hohum just another F4U-1C bash disguised in stats format. The C hog has been penalized highly in the "perk point" format so that numerous kills in it get almost NO perk points, therefore anyone wishing to fly perk aircraft with avoid the 1C like a plague. That being said, what the point????
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BigJim, you couldn't be more wrong there. This is not a c hog whine. Not once do I ever say that there is a thing wrong with it. All I do is post facts. If that is a whine, please pass more cheese. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I personally have no problem with the 1c. True, I will not fly it, but I don't have a problem with other people who choose to do so. (They are pretty fun to shoot down in the f6f. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) They pay their $30 just like me.
My true intentions here were just to find some commonalities between the "top 30" pilots. I had figured (incorrectly) that the top 30 pilots would tend to favor fighters that require the use of ACM to win battles. To be sure, some of the top 30 pilots did. A couple flew the p38 for 80% of their kills. Another few flew 190s, p51s, a6m5, 109g10, and even a 190f4 pilot. The majority, however, tended to spend 80% of their time in the f4u, f65, and n1k. This can only lead to 2 conclusions IMO: A. The stats are weighted heavily toward attack. B. The f4u has an advantage that none of the other planes have, and the "top 30" pilots realize it.
Although I have no problem whatsoever with people flying planes like the f4u1c and n1k; I do feel that the f4u1c does present a gameplay problem. The f4u1c pilots are not to blame. They simply are using the best tool for the job, that's smart flying, and what makes them "top 30" pilots.
If you feel that this constitutes a whine, then so be it.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Good info Bloom.
Good point on the Osty too. The last time I flew I was trying to clear Osties for my squad at V-2 in my VulchHog. I was repetedly pummeled by them.
In about Tour 2 or 3 (I think) I did a similar check to see what the favorite rides were of the guys with the best K/D in the game. It was a long process because I had to check one plane per pilot at a time. When we get K/D ranking stats back, it would be interesting to do the same... find out what the most survivable planes are in the hands of good pilots.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo:
When we get K/D ranking stats back, it would be interesting to do the same... find out what the most survivable planes are in the hands of good pilots.
If Im not mistaken, that data has been available for a few weeks Eskimo, check out the scores page and look for scores in expanded format (IE only). Then look for model vs model.
-Ding
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look guys c-hog is a good plane im using it some times for jabo missions, don`t mind if someone will call me a c-hog dweab (i got more stories in D-hog) but, for some guys c-hog is only weay to get a kill !!!
1lucky shoot from 650 and they are runing oweay ! so be it.
i was flying hog`s alot this Tour special THX for Viks13 great jabo missions !
i still think that spit is the best plane in that game (i just love it and will fly it to the end) <S> to U all
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Asmodan
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 01-30-2001).]
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eskimo,
Just a note, that the plane with the best K/D is not the most survivable. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) For the most survivable you will have to go by the one with the highest number of sorties/deaths.
Now THAT would be interesting. I bet that chart would look quite different than the K/D chart. I bet the 51 and the G10 and maybe the Jug would be higher up the list for sure.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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CC that Dingy;
But we can't look at ranking by K/D alone, only by overall fighter rank.
My question is;
What are the guys with the outstanding K/Ds flying?
I think that Yipsln (sp?) used to fly the stang alot/exclusively when he had K/Ds in the 40-60 range.
Is this still being done with the stang?
Are other planes being flown by good pilots with K/Ds beyond 10?
eskimo
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I collected more data for the bottom 30 of the top 100 pilots.
I haven't compiled the data yet, but first impressions tell me that the results are quite different.
The f4u1c still has the highest k/d without a doubt. Planes like the 190s, 109s, and f4u1d were MUCH more heavily used by the #70 - #100 pilots. I also noticed the total flying time for the top 30 is probably 2 to 3x greater than the bottom 30 of the top 100.
There are some very strange things about the scoring system though. I found some people ranked around 75 that had k/d in fighters much less than 1. (They only managed a slightly greater than 1 k/d in the f4u1c and the ostwind.) When I looked at their fighter ranking though, it was surprisingly high. It seems the total number of kills more than makes up for a poor k/d.
I'll see if I can't finish up getting the data posted this evening. It should be very interesting...
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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The fact that your ranking is entirely dependant on how much you fly is why I ceased caring about it. I will never have enough time to break the 200 mark, so I should just accept that I suck? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) I don't think so.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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you certainly have enough time to write about how little you can fly
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Wouldn't an examination of the top 100 fighter pilots be more fruitful here as opposed to the top 100 "overall" pilots? Someone with a high k/d ratio who does nothing but fly fighters (i.e. no jabo, no bombing, no field capture, no tanks or PT boats) probably won't even come close to cracking the top 100 overall scores.
Just a thought.
-- Todd/DMF
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Guys;
Remember, a good K/D is definitly the mark of a skilled sim pilot.
Total points are the mark of an AH junkie.
Ranking, however, is not just a balance of these two.
As the ranking system goes, Hit % is just as important as either K/D or points.
So is K/T, and K/S.
eskimo