Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on December 17, 2013, 05:24:40 PM
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I've never thought to test this in the game because my gunsight and dispersion testing offline is usually below 5k. And max range 600.
If you take your fighter out and auto level, then pull up the target. Eventually, depending on the gun, 30cal, 50cal, 13mm, 20mm and 30mm Mk108. Between 800 and 1200 the rounds will stop registering sprites on the target.
At higher altitudes do these ranges increase in the game? Have any of you leveled at 20k or 30k and tested against the target for max effective range?
The M4-37mm, Ns-37, BK3.7, Mk103 and BK5 have very long max ranges. It's the standard fair most players use in the game I'm asking about.
So has anyone tested max range on auto level 20k and above?
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Not I
:cheers: Oz
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I believe the range is based on flight time. Limited to a couple of seconds for the common guns. That means that range will increase with altitude since the projectiles won't lose velocity as quickly in the thinner air.
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Ya they drop less and go farther at 20 and 30k.
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Yes....they go quite a bit further at 30,000 feet.
Likewise, the rear gunners also enjoy a gain in range at that altitude.
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Takes about 15 minutes using WEP assist for climbs to test this and offline fuel burn set to .01.
Maximum effective range is the last range rounds made IP patterns on the target. I chose 25 yard increments working back until impact patterns happened. You can do the same with a bomber offline and test the guns for max range at strat run alts. Don't know how many hours that would take.....
P51D
Alt----Max Ef Rng---Drop---Disp
SL-------1000-------20ft---20'x20'
10k------1125-------20ft---20'x20'
20k------1225-------15ft---20'x20'
30k------1300-------15ft---20'x20'
Most of this is meaningless to 90% of the players in our game because their combat maximum range is 400 yards below 15k in fighters.
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When you can lob 4x20mm mg151s and 2x30mm mk108s onto a plane at d1000, you can beat the bomber defensive gunners to the punch a lot of the time.
They will hit from that distance at 30k but won't at low altitude.
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When you can lob 4x20mm mg151s and 2x30mm mk108s onto a plane at d1000, you can beat the bomber defensive gunners to the punch a lot of the time.
They will hit from that distance at 30k but won't at low altitude.
So people are thinking that HTC has modeled an extended range to the cannons and MG's at 30,000ft?
Though I've not ever actually tested it, my hunch is that the effective range in which damage can be registered is the same regardless of altitude. I'm not sure if HTC has modeled the trajectory differences, I've not ever tested that either. I aim the same regardless if I'm at 10k, 20k, or 30k. Only the flight controls input and handling characteristics of the aircraft change.
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Though I've not ever actually tested it, my hunch is that the effective range in which damage can be registered is the same regardless of altitude. I'm not sure if HTC has modeled the trajectory differences, I've not ever tested that either.
So if you never tested it, what makes you doubt those who actually have? :)
(By the way, in AH bullets don't have an actualy max range but rather a max time of flight)
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So people are thinking that HTC has modeled an extended range to the cannons and MG's at 30,000ft?
Though I've not ever actually tested it, my hunch is that the effective range in which damage can be registered is the same regardless of altitude. I'm not sure if HTC has modeled the trajectory differences, I've not ever tested that either. I aim the same regardless if I'm at 10k, 20k, or 30k. Only the flight controls input and handling characteristics of the aircraft change.
As noted above, it's the flight time that is modeled as well as the density of the air.
They go further before they disappear in less dense air.
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It's obvious why you really cannot hit anything much past 600 in the game from a fighter. Time to target and dispersion gets in the way of your aim guessing. Otherwise it would be hold off and drop points on your custom gunsight while sitting back and pushing a button. Too bad Hitech doesn't allow you to set a traffic pattern and altitude for your drones.
Browning AN/M2 .50 cal
Alt----Max Ef Rng---Drop---Disp
SL-------1000-------20ft---20'x20'
10k------1125-------20ft---20'x20'
20k------1225-------15ft---20'x20'
30k------1300-------15ft---20'x20'
----------------------------------------
MG131 13mm
Alt----Max Ef Rng---Drop---Disp
SL---------950--------35'---20'x20'
10k-------1075-------50'---20'x20'
20k-------1200-------40'---20'x20'
30k-------1350-------50'---20'x20'
---------------------------------------
MG151\20
Alt----Max Ef Rng---Drop---Disp
SL---------875--------60'---20'x20'
10k-------1000-------35'---20'x20'
20k-------1175-------60'---40'x30'
30k-------1375-------50'---50'x70'
---------------------------------------
MK108 30mm 500m\sec
Alt----Max Ef Rng---Drop---Disp
SL---------800--------50'---50'x50'
10k-------975-------110'---60'x50'
20k-------1100-------60'---70'x60'
30k-------1250------125'---80'x70'
----------------------------------------
Mk. II Hispano 20mm
Alt----Max Ef Rng---Drop---Disp
SL---------950--------55'---40'x30'
10k-------1075-------50'---70'x60'
20k-------1200-------20'---65'x40'
30k-------1350-------50'---80'x80'
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The large variations in drop is strange. The effects of gravity on the projectiles is a function of time, not distance, so it should be constant regardless of altitude.
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I guess none of you ever did this little test then I guess??
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm not the coad gauwd. I don't know the reason for the blip at 20k.
In both cases here, these are the maximum reality effective ranges tested in real life for destroying other aircraft from the Aberdeen Data testing authority. Our wirbel maximum range is 1700 based on when sprites last stop being recorded on the offline target. Look up the 20mm used in the wirbelwind. It's max range is almost twice 1700yds as is the BK3.7 in the ostwind which is limited to 2700yds. You can test the flakers using the azimuth setting with the target command to put the target up at 30 degrees 1700 and 2700. Then set them about 50yds farther. No hit sprites. Imagine trying to capture a field with wirbels firing up to 4000 yards. Dispersion is about 50'x50' with a 3.7 at 2500.
AAF testing of the .50 cal
At 666yds-----drop
SL---------------8.0'
7k---------------7.5'
15k--------------7.4'
30k--------------7.1'
50k--------------6.8'
---------------------------------
AAF testing of the 20mm
At 1300yds-----drop
SL---------------58'
7k---------------48'
15k--------------40'
30k--------------34'
50k--------------30'
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The large variations in drop is strange. The effects of gravity on the projectiles is a function of time, not distance, so it should be constant regardless of altitude.
I saw that myself, I am wondering exactly how the drop was measured. If the initial shot is on an upward angle, it may be that it is arcing higher do to the less drag and hence less drop from the sight line at the end.
HiTech
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Takes about 15 minutes using WEP assist for climbs to test this and offline fuel burn set to .01.
You can save some time by spawning at a 30k field using the training terrain.
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The airplanes speed affects bullet range. The slower your plane the farther the bullets fly.
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To FLOOB,
IN game or real world.
AAF testing at different speeds for the 20mm showed no difference in the ability to reach out to 4000ft(1333yds). Between 150IAS and 450IAS was a 300 inch difference in drop at SL, 100inch at 50,000ft with the shallowest drop tied to the fastest speed. Are you describing shooting at a 45 degree angle or level? The ballistic capability of a round based on the physical properties of the round chambered, length of barrel and twist rate, angle of elevation for max range....What will determine maximum range then to say one round went farther than another? Mr. Hitech's code?
Hitech,
I tested auto level at max Mil speed level at all alts. I waited until the center of the gunsight stopped moving down and settled into place. Pretty sure you are the keeper of the code tables on those speeds and what the last range on the target any round type will make a pattern at all alts. I'm assuming the first tap of rounds will define roughly the center of your programed dispersion cone for each gun type. From there, it's just tap the button, let the nose settle, rinse and repeat until the borders of the dispersion cone become defined. Then h x w as a general description.
I didn't perform this with my Mil ladder bore sight. Just counted rings on the target from the center of my combat sight in each fighter. I wanted to show max distance at alt and how it changed. I assumed I would simply be describing your fixed program math in a general way.
The map was NDisles if it's an environmental issue with a single map versus the physics.
***Update***
Offline for the NDisles I have no winds set at any alt.
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Bustr: I am not disputing your results. The only issue I have is the drop recorded.
There is nothing special, the muzzle vel remains the same , the bullets always travel a fixed amout of time.
The only changes the program makes is density with alt and hence the drag changes.
The way you are testing , you will not get a consistent alt drop comparisons. This is do to you aoa will be changing, and hence your angle of launch will be changing vs a guns parallel with the ground. Your measurement is useful for knowing how to change your aim with altitude. I am just pointing out that there is not an issue with the programing. And the same change in drop measurement would happen in the real world. When at first glance people would think they should be the same.
Think it this way, if you shoot your gruns travel straight up, you will not get any drop with your sight line, because gravity will be working in the same direction as your drag.
If you are traveling parallel with the ground and shoot a bullet straight up, the bullet will appear to raise in your gun sight.
The change in drop you are measuring are changes based on the above.
HiTech
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At 20-30k I'm assuming all fighters I tested on auto level will have a higher AoA than at 10k and SL to stay in the air.
I'll come up with something.
I can always follow the AAF harmonizing book and attempt to adjust for 15k alt, 300 IAS and the nose AoA to try and keep the effective bore line the same at each alt. After testing each plane at 15k auto level 300IAS from the target's perspective at 3-4 yards using F3 mode. Then at each alt first adjust the relationship of the spinner tip to the horizontal red line the same before performing shooting tests. I'm assuming the red horizontal line of the target lines up with the CL of single engine fighters in the game through the spinner tip if I can level the fighter relative to the target at 0 azimuth.
This could get boffo quickly if the only way to match the 15k AoA at 20k and 30k is manually trimming and flying without auto level enabled. I have to assume the effective bore within reason is what I need to duplicate at each altitude. Weee a moving bench rest.
I can use the challenge, my 10 year old TrackIR 3D Pro died today and my 5 Pro won't be here till after Christmas.
*Update
I accounted for "0" climb and centering the Ta152 spinner at 20k on the offline target at 4 yards. The drop graduation is what should be in between 10K and 30K. I'll revisit the fighters and center the spinners on the offline target at each alt and "0" climb. Unless there is something I should know about the target airplane relationship with "0" azimuth as you move it away from the plane.
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If you test at the same IAS at different altitudes won't the AOA be the same?
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In game.
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This is a computer program.
I will align the center of the spinner with the center of the offline target at each test alt knowing the real speed will be different due to altitude. If Hitech doesn't step in and say the spinner relationship to target center changes either with alt or with distance. That will be my control state. That's usually the point where the climb number in E6B says "0".
Wonder if this is why AAF charts only show max effective ranges tested for time, drop, and dispersion. Not how far can you shoot at different altitudes. Since we all know that distance would be all the way to the ground where the round will stop falling in the farmers field 30k feet below you. So the maximum range for all fighter guns flying at 30k is 10000yds + 1300yds(+-) before the round drops below level heading for the farmers field down below??
At 20k and 30k last night I achieved the state on auto level with the Ta152 which in F3 mode on zoom you could look down the Mk108 barrel and see the vertical\horizontal red cross center perfectly bisecting inside of the barrel.
I guess for floob I will have to auto level at SL and shoot for max range which the speed of say the K4 will be about 318IA. Then reduce the speed by say 50mph and manual trim for level ("0" climb) and shoot 25 yards past max range from the auto level max range to see if I get hits. That will reduce the relative velocity of the 500m\sec plus 318IA by about relative 22m\sec. And then the Mk108 round will subsequently travel farther for maximum range??
I thought if Hitech's maximum range is a time dependent component, then going faster makes the round travel farther during Hitech's imposed time value. And that's part of why at SL the Mk108 from the Ta152 shoots ingame shorter than at 30k because of the nearly 100mph speed increase at 30k. So to, if I use WEP and achieve max SL speed, the max range for the MK108 will get what? Longer or shorter??
So at 30k if I reduced speed to the speed at SL, to which the spinner on the Ta152 @SL is level with the target center, max range for the Mk108 will be slightly shorter?? Or, based on floob's assertion, max range will be longer than the speed at 30k that aligns the center of the Ta152's spinner with the center of the target that is nearly 100mph faster?????
Any bets on floob's conundrum? I've never thought about Hitech's program from that perspective.
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It's easier if you use a nose gunner in a bomber that way AOA isn't a factor. Going slower makes the round travel farther because there is less friction as it is traveling through less air. That's why tailguns shoot farther than nose guns.
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It's easier if you use a nose gunner in a bomber that way AOA isn't a factor. Going slower makes the round travel farther because there is less friction as it is traveling through less air. That's why tailguns shoot farther than nose guns.
I agree, but it must be stated that by "farther" you are referring to the distance relative to the moving air plane. And it also must be stated when shooting forward.
The total distance the bullet traveled retaliative to the ground, would increase as you travel faster and shoot forward.
If your plane was traveling at 1000 fps and you shoot a bullet backwards that has a muzzle vel of 1000fps, the bullet would travel 0 distance relative to the ground, but it would not have any drag and hence relative to the plane it's range would be greatly extended.
Also bustr ,what are you now trying to test?
HiTech
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I've never bought into "the less drag" argument. It's all about velocity, not drag. A plane at high speed will fire it's guns at a higher velocity than a stationary plane. Thus the rounds will go farther. The rounds out of a tail turret have a reduced velocity due to the aircraft's forward movement. Thus they have a reduced range. Drag is a function of velocity.
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Get the drops corrected now since I botched it. And this was about fighters at alt not bomber positions. Don't want to leave players with the previous botched drops, since some of them do spend time between 20k and 30k shooting bombers at maximum range.
It's probably as useless as trying to tell fellow wribelwind drivers that the last range on the target I could get impact points was 1.7K. Or the ostwind was 2.7k in the face of the manned 3.7 is about 4k. They still blaze away with both at bombers that show 3.0+ wasting ammo.
I use the target as my gauge for max effective range based on the last range it registers hit sprites. GV and manned ack, I will be standing still. Fighters, I will be at some speed in motion. After a decade that seems to be a 1 for 1 duplication against other players rides. So like the old saying, "that's good enough for government work" in a fighter chasing bombers at 30k.
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I've never bought into "the less drag" argument. It's all about velocity, not drag. A plane at high speed will fire it's guns at a higher velocity than a stationary plane. Thus the rounds will go farther. The rounds out of a tail turret have a reduced velocity due to the aircraft's forward movement. Thus they have a reduced range. Drag is a function of velocity.
Dave understand that when we speak of farther, we speak of a farther distance between 2 moving planes. I.E. if a plane is 1000 in front of you. The bullet must travel farther then 1000 relative to the ground to reach the target when both planes are moving.
Now if a plane is 1000 behind and a bullet is shot back, the bullet could stay stationary relative to the ground (I.E. not moving at all), and still hit the target.
HiTech
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Because you have a maximum distance at which rounds stop marking the target, I wonder if anyone has considered in some respects how useless it is to know max range in the game for general AtoA combat shooting. And if they do, keeping in mind relative travel, will they setup their long range shots 300 yards or shorter, so as not to have their rounds be absorbed into the matrix?
Lusche and icepic seem to understand this program limitation.
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Air speed affects fighter gun range too. Using m2 50 cals, set the .target range to 1100, if you're traveling more than about 250mph your bullets won't reach the target.
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A modern 50 cal with a 661gr bullet and a .62 BC starting at 2750fps:
At 1000' altitude drop at 1000 yards is 268" tof is 1.5 seconds
At 18,000' drop at 1000 yards is 200" tof is 1.26 seconds
This is with a 300 yard zero and scope 3" above the bore.
No idea how the big gap between bore and sight and a plane moving 400 mph (587fps) effects this. Add in incline, target moving speed and direction, tracers vs regular round ballistics (real life), wind, and a dash of coriolis effect... :huh