Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Getback on December 21, 2013, 06:21:12 AM
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I participated in Frame 2 and Frame 3 of this FSO. It was horrible!! Frames like these are why I gave up the FSO for years at one point. We were fighting in Early War Planes vs Late War Planes. Our squad was in A8s, they could barely get to the Altitude of the bombers and then could hardly catch them. I never felt so out of it. Then, nothing to do with the FSO, we were so out of position, that after rethinking things, I wish I would have just landed. We were over a sector away when the base we were suppose to be Capping was flashing. No way we could make it in those slow planes. In fact when we finally got a visual on the bombers they had dropped their bombs and were well on their way home.
I guess Christmas came early for the allies.
Final thought, I invited two squaddies to join us in the FSO. Thank Goodness they didn't couldn't make it. I would have been embarrassed.
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i wouldn't call it aweful, i would call it very challenging. you had to fight to get altitude as fast as possible and then you needed in position when the bombers came. The allies got airspawns, the axis didn't, therefore it was a scramble to get into the air. the bigger problem was that there wasn't a whole lot of time to scout, although we did have darbar. and once spotted we weren't in a good position to intercept them. it was tough setup. had we had a little more time to get in position, things might have been different.
i personally would like to apologize to the axis for frame 3, for using the ME262's as scouts. i was hoping they would have more time to find the allies.......i was wrong. i was also hoping that people would call out positions of the bombers better, with the use of the ME262. that sorta worked. Live and learn i guess. thanks to everyone that tried to make it fun. JG54 made great targets for the fighter escorts. <S>
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I had fun, but I usually do unless I get a one ping pilot or radiator kill. :)
If they were all easy it wouldn't be very much fun.
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My experience was very different.
Frame 1 saw my squad in B24s. Some made it to target, and some even made it home...it was tough against the schwarms we encountered.
Frame 2 saw us in P47s. Our package of B29s made it to target with heavy losses due to the schwarms we ran into, and some made it back home.
Frame 3 saw us again in B24s. None of us made it closer than 25 miles to the target because of the cloud of red between us and the target. Our night lasted about 40 minutes.
It was no picnic, and the Allies didn't have any early Christmas. It was a "what if" design, which isn't done very often. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If is wasn't for the guys who design these events, many people would end up spending their Friday nights watching TV.
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Flying for the Allies this FSO was certainly no picnic. Our first frame we were in P-51s on a fighter sweep and we were either out maneuvered by 109Ks or out dove by FW190s.
Both second and third frames were in B-24s and B-17s. Each sortie found us fighting our way to target and fighting our way out. Our fighter escorts lamented that they could do very little to stop the first attack run of the Axis fighters against the bombers. Each initial contact with swarms of Axis fighters showed them to have the altitude advantage. Both frames resulted in 1/3 to 1/2 of our buffs being brought down and ammo for rear firing guns being exhausted. Last frame, after egressing over 100 miles from target, my last B-17 was brought down within 25 miles of the safe zone. Well done Axis!! There were certainly no milkruns on our end!
Kudos to the CM staff. If both sides talk about the difficulty of their missions you know you have done something right. :devil
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2 out of the 3 frames we were clobbered by large numbers of 190's and 109's who knew the target we were coming to. They simply waited and overwhelmed us. It was well executed and coordinated <S> 💩👍, not sure if I was in the same FSO as the one where the axis had it rough. I thought it was well put together , sure some things could have been tweaked. But overall was a great time!!! Keeping me locked into the game.
Hub
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Every FSO presents it good and bad scenarios , For me and I feel the rest JG11 was that we had only 1 good pass on the bomber formations before they return for home . The A8 is a very capable plane , not that it has great attributes up high , it all comes to setting up your 1st pass ... The late war planes the Allies had were a hand full to say the lease but it does make the setup for your 1st engagement more calculated and Planning . We are lucky in the JG11 to have one of the best for this Stampf always puts us in great position for the 1st pass doesn't matter what we in . Was great fun ...To all :salute Oops forgot all have a safe Holiday season and see you all up in this pixel skies
Canukk " Lucas" :salute
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Ah quit your blubbering, the A8's didn't have any trouble tearing up the buffs we were escorting at 19k. The previous two weeks we were in buffs up high and still got slaughtered.
shamus
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Ah quit your blubbering, the A8's didn't have any trouble tearing up the buffs we were escorting at 19k. The previous two weeks we were in buffs up high and still got slaughtered.
shamus
:D
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Allied FSO players require B29s because they are tired of losing week after week to the historic planes set :neener:
Pandering to lesser determined players, for shame I say... for shame! :old:
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To those that had fun Great! However, take a8s to 30k for 2 weeks in a row, deal with 35k p47s, 30k b29s, 30+k P51s and then report back.
It won't matter, but I think I'm out of the FSO for a while.
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Sounds like it was good and bad for each side depending on how the cards fell--what more could a designer ask for? My group was first in on bombers twice, taking heavy losses both times but we pulled the escorts down from their 3 to 5k height advantage so the next group had a more even start! That's how it should be--some times the chaff other times the wheat! I for one had fun! Thanks to all that put these together! :salute
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You're right it wont matter, gawwd the narcissism of some just blows my mind.
shamus
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Shamus you're so hostile these days.
Be careful Santa is watching......
:)
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You're right it wont matter, gawwd the narcissism of some just blows my mind.
shamus
I admit this scenario seemed to be stacked a bit in favor of the allies, but I still managed to get six in my G-14 in frame 3, and force one B-24 to bail before I could get in gun range. All with only a single 30mm. :D
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I admit this scenario seemed to be stacked a bit in favor of the allies, but I still managed to get six in my G-14 in frame 3, and force one B-24 to bail before I could get in gun range. All with only a single 30mm. :D
Indeed. Well done last night. :salute
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Being handcuffed to inferior AC in the midsts of the latest tech has historical precedent.
As late as 1940 and into 1941, pilots were still flying 109E1s!
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Sorry Bug, I had a big bowl of bran flakes a bit ago, much better now:)
shamus
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:rofl
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Indeed. Well done last night. :salute
Same to you and the rest of the Laughing Devils. :salute :rock
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Bran flakes are awesome!
Hopefully I'm not narcissistic. I was frustrated though and I just had to express that. Took me a full day to recover. Not normally like that but I have my moments. As one of my squaddies said it's uphill from here.
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I would like to thank the AKs for allowing me to fly with them. Their squad performs well with minimal chatter and they stay on the objective.AKBunk was able to put us in a good position for the fight.
Frame 1 Bf109k vs.47m with 47m having alt advantage, stayed with wing man until I had to go defensive, radiator hit had to take the ditch was all I had to show for 1 hour.
Frame 2 Fw190d we were in good position to attack bombers that were co-alt, several kills and assist when I got the call to precede to rally point. Unfortunately I had a shot up B24 right in front of me so I went for the kill and got PW forcing a rtb and safe landing!
Frame 3 Fw190d again we were in excellent position high above 24s on reciprocal course. The best day yet made three or four diving passes before getting engine hit forcing a rtb. And ditching short of the runway! That was the most fun I've had in FSO after being away for nearly a year. I'm really looking forward to the next FSO. :banana:
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I agree with the original post - This wasn't one of the better FSO scenario's at all. But I would cut some slack to the CM in control of it if I would have seen any attempt what so ever to make any adjustments as the frames played out. Personally I didn't see any at all. Once again a decisive AXIS victory has played out and like what has been going on now for the last 6 months plus. And if disagree with this statement start pulling the logs and seeing which side won. in fact there was a 3 month window (3 different scenario's or 9 frames) IN A ROW where the AXIS won each one. You CM's need to fix this before the FSO numbers begin to drop.
Mr. REVO's post bottom of Page 01: It looked like a ALLIED tipped setup. (Kudos's to you Sir for 6 victory's) But not at all a ALLIED favored setup and here's why:
The Side split was 50/50
The ALLIES had to put up a min of 50 bombers each frame (50 pilots) or somewhere between 30-45% of our total available pilots. The AXIS ALWAYS had great fighter AC numbers in every encounter minus squad turnout or navigational blunders.
AXIS radar coverage and DARBAR made surprise attacks impossible - and what holes or gaps there were, were obvious to any AXIS squad CO
ALLIED Bombers were limited to 14-28K for not only bomb dropping but flying into the target. only after drop on a west bound heading could a ALLIED bomber descend lower than 14K. Again this fixes the ALLIED bombers into a fairly tight range which is easy to locate and identify
6 targets per frame - Whenever the targets move past 3 in any scenario and we've seen this play out before, then your forces have to be split into smaller elements in order to cover the missions. in any scenario this favors the defender even though his forces are split his target is fixed - For the attacker when your forces are small then you can't use Fighter Sweeps, deception operations, faints or Recon AC unless you are fine with a higher risk of the ordnance carring AC.
The AXIS had the fighter advantage in every engagement - As always: the plan, squad turnout, fog of war, decisions and the capabilities of individual squads will impact and possible trump shear numbers. So I cant see how anyone could look at the setup and see a ALLIED tipped event.
Next AXIS advantage was in the possible points that the ALLIES could event get, example: FRAME 3 target the 325th VFG was assigned to hit. A V-Base with 5 hangers (HVT's worth 25 points each = 125 possible points). I don't count the secondaries as HVT's and not worth a dedicated bomber to hit unless it just happens to be in the same track at drop. By the setup I had to use a minimum of 10 pilots in B-24's, if I choose formations that's 30 bombers worth 5 points each or 150 points to lose. In other words I had to risk 150 points to get 125 points. Formations were optional - but because of the lopsided AXIS fighter advantage and radar / BARDAR I had to launch formations so that at least a few bombers "might" make it. So once again the setup points greatly favored the AXIS side. And in this case as "ImADot" pointed out in the 3rd post the entire force (bombers and escorts) were wiped out 25 miles from target.
With a map full of STRAT's and huge city / industrial targets, Why would a V-Base even be used as a target for a bomber formation with a min 10 to a max 60 bombers????????????????
In this scenario I was looking forward like many others on the ALLIED side to flying the B29 or the P-51 as we don't get to very often. Not likely in this setup and that was a mistake that should have been corrected in Frame 2. I'm sure there are plenty of AXIS pilot that got stuck in less then optimum planes as well and would have rather flown the jets or the 152's. Its a "What If" scenario for goodness sakes - just give us all available planes in unlimited numbers and let us have some fun once a year!!! Who cares if I take my B-29's in NOE, would be a fun mission to fly I think. I wouldn't have cared if the entire AXIS side were in Jets. Would have enjoyed watching horde's of Jets hit my B-29 formation!! Even if you get shot down at least its in something you'd like to fly in a mission that's fun, challenging and has a chance of success. in this scenario: Air Spawn into AXIS territory - No really possibility to fly around and hit from off angles - Have the enemy know where your at due to radar and BARDAR - limitations in altitude.
I am one to point out the mistakes when I see them. I'm also one to provide recommendations as well:
1. Scenario designs are not expected to be perfect - But I would expect the CM in control to make changes as the frames play out to ensure playability and fairness so that each side has an even chance to win. The CM should make course corrections and even extreme ones in order to ensure fairness and evenness in as much as possible. This has happened very little in the last 6 months and not at all in this scenario
2. If Frame 1 was a BIG AXIS victory and you only make only minor "tweaks" for Frame 2 and the AXIS wins again, then make a BIG adjustment and allow the ALLIES to win Frame 3. I would rather see a mistake in Frame 1 corrected with a over correction in Frame 2 so the other side wins, so that Frame 3 could be the perfect even match. Or as close as possible given the variables of turnout, planning and mission decisions.
3. Points - Most don't care about them and I get that. Some of us do and use it to evaluate who wins. Also there is a direct correlation between BIG point victory's of a side and the fun that was probably NOT HAD by the losing side.
In the end it comes down to play time and fun for me in this scenario:
Frame 1: Killed in 15 Min's in a B24 with no escorts
Frame 2: Killed in 60 Min's in a P-47 during an encounter with a "Horde" of 152's and 190's outnumbering our fighters by 3 to 1 and in my final fight at least 10 to 1 as I was the last fighter near our bombers
Frame 3: Killed in 25 Min's in a B24 again after being horded by 190's that outnumbered our fighters at least 2 to 1
I might just as well stay in the Late War arena - And I'm not the only one thinking this either. I've been flying the FSO since 2003 and had a ball but this last 6 months have really been disappointing and this scenario capped off a bad FSO year in my opinion. If it continues along this way much longer I'll make my statement with my feet.
Jan 2014 starts a brand new year in the FSO - CM's time to make some changes to the setups and start controlling the frames for fair and even play.
Signed:
A concerned cartoon flier looking for a fun time on a Friday night
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What adjustments would you have liked? We could try this again and give you 35k airstarts and 163's with unlimited fuel... We could also move the no-fly zone forward half a dozen sectors and limit the Axis side to three pilots..
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Viper,
I can understand your feeling about the setup, especially given the results you experienced in the 3 frames. But in frame 1, that was not a CM thing, or even the setup itself.
Frame 2 was strictly a numbers thing, and imo...... They could use some looking into from that aspect.
Frame 3, you should have said something to the CiC. No reason any squad had to draw the same buff twice in this setup at all.
The changes I saw made during the 3 frames suggested to me that the AXIS were at the dis advantage. Had to be challenging from both side judging by what folks are posting here.
My overall assessment? Really not all that bad for a first time run setup.
:salute
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Man you guys sure do cry a lot. Always easy to look back at an event and point out what should of been done to ensure that YOU had a successful flight and there for a good time. Seems like every week some Monday morning quarter back comes in with a whole bunch of "well this is how it should of been setup" posts. I thought FSO pilots were of a higher cut than the standard MA pilot.
You all sit back and complain about "poor us", like the CM set out to screw you out of your fun. I say poor them. The CM's take time out of their personal lives, and put in what I am sure is a but load of hours pouring over the pages of history to try and bring us historical, unique, and as best balanced events they can come up with......FOR US. And all you all can do is whine like a bunch of school kids who just lost your bucket to the bully in the sand box.
Why don't you all put up your personal time up for sale and become a CM, and come up with some of these perfect events that your so sure are possible?
Thank you too the CMs that do the impossible job of trying to provide fun for a bunch of undeserving, childish, disrespectful idiots like us. I honesty don't think I could handle the jobs you all VOLUNTEER to do. :bhead
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Given that BOTH sides claim to have been boned, I think it's safe to call this one fair.
Sure, there are tweaks that could be made, but in my opinion, this setup doesn't rank in the top three most unbalanced setups of 2013 in my opinion - those being Breaking Gustav, Green Desert, and Coral Sea.
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Looking at just personal experience, I would think that, like Viper61, that it was a little Allied sided. In all three frames we had a avg to bad missions. The P47M's were very fast and had altitude. They made it hard for us, or at least me. Especially the last frame where I got swarmed by 4 of them, put 30mm in B24s and got only a fuel leak on one.
However, after looking at what happened other places, I think it's just a matter of where you were at. From out views, none would've been seen as a huge Axis victory. Just the opposite. I saw in the logs of lots of bombers going down (as I put in an earlier post). I have to be honest and say the numbers don't lie. Some places bombers got wiped out and axis fighters reigned and some (mostly where I was) bombers made it through fairly easy and allied fighters were heavy.
Plus I don't know why Viper61 would need 10 bombers sets for 5 hangers. That's putting alot of tonnage on a single target. Plus Viper61 wrote of 125 possible points. For the Axis, we got 2 pts per fighter and 5 per bomber. How many would that take to get to 125? I haven't read any totals yet but that seems very low per plane. It would seem hard to me for the CMs to balance out a FSO when only one side has the bombers. Now that's 'game' speaking. Just being somewhat close to realism, what if or not, bombers should have problems.
I honestly didn't enjoy it. But being honest to Bino and the CMs, looking at the overall picture, reading the logs, that wasn't their fault or the setup when, like Devil505 wrote about, both sides have problems. Just my frustrating bad luck. A lot has to do with where the missions and numbers are.
So, Viper61, you and I were just at the wrong ends of the map. :salute
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I'm guessing this was a pretty fair setup based on what I see here. From my point of view it didn't feel that way at all. The Axis had a superior number of fighters by about 1/3 or more, knew ahead of time exactly which targets the Allies were supposed to hit, knew exactly which direction we were coming from with radar, knew what altitude block the bombers were going to fly, and had inferior (sarcasm) 152s 163s and 262s.
The only advantage I see in allied favor was high altitude performance of piston powered fighters. The last frame I had 12 P-47s to guide a group of B-29s. When we arrived at target, there were 32 Axis fighter aircraft at altitude waiting for our arrival. If my crew wasn't in P-47Ms we would have been decimated by the horde that nearly wiped out our bombers.
In the interest of being constructive, I'd like to make a few suggestions if we're to run this scenario in the future. First, if fortress Europe held off the invasion, perhaps this fight should take place over the channel rather than deep on the continent. Second, it seems to me the Axis would have some offensive objective as well allowing for Ar234s, 111s, Ju88s. Third, perhaps a strat target to punch holes in radar or something similar allowing the use of Jabos or medium/light bombers.
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I'm guessing this was a pretty fair setup based on what I see here. From my point of view it didn't feel that way at all. The Axis had a superior number of fighters by about 1/3 or more, knew ahead of time exactly which targets the Allies were supposed to hit, knew exactly which direction we were coming from with radar, knew what altitude block the bombers were going to fly, and had inferior (sarcasm) 152s 163s and 262s.
The only advantage I see in allied favor was high altitude performance of piston powered fighters. The last frame I had 12 P-47s to guide a group of B-29s. When we arrived at target, there were 32 Axis fighter aircraft at altitude waiting for our arrival. If my crew wasn't in P-47Ms we would have been decimated by the horde that nearly wiped out our bombers.
In the interest of being constructive, I'd like to make a few suggestions if we're to run this scenario in the future. First, if fortress Europe held off the invasion, perhaps this fight should take place over the channel rather than deep on the continent. Second, it seems to me the Axis would have some offensive objective as well allowing for Ar234s, 111s, Ju88s. Third, perhaps a strat target to punch holes in radar or something similar allowing the use of Jabos or medium/light bombers.
+1
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The 412th flew 51's in frames 1 and 3 and B24's in frame 2. The last 2 frames we had a hella long flight to target and back home, which took up nearly the entire 2 hour event. It was no picnic once we engaged. If you got the same ride for all 3 frames then you will have to blame the CiCs for that. I always did my best to share the wealth. If you want the perfect set-up, then step up and be a CM. I'm sure that you can pull it off and that no one person or squad will ever complain because it will be perfect. Otherwise, please feel free to offer constructive criticism as it is always welcome. If you're gonna squeak about how unfair it is or was and keep saying things like "This is why I don't like FSO" then quit. There are 12 scenarios in a year and you are bound to have some good flights and bad flights out of 36 frames.
:salute to the CMs and all the players who try to make this event fun and can roll with the punches. And a Merry Christmas to all of us. May the New year ahead bring us peace and prosperity. :cheers:
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Merry Christmas Sir! To all our FSO familes: Be Safe!
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It seems that most of the players that aren't having fun suffer from the same malady:
Being assigned the same ride multiple frames in the same series. THIS SHOULD RARELY HAPPEN.
Please, when you're the CiC, take a few extra minutes and examine what rides the squads had the previous frame(s) before making assignments, then give them something different. Of course, this is not a concern if you're Frame 1 CiC. Just review the ride requests on the event site and assign accordingly.
Now, there are a couple events that we repeat that this simply isn't possible. Battle of Britain, for the allied side, is one of them. Other than that, though.. as long as there are more than 2 planes in the set, then each squad should have different rides each week, as well as different assignments ( bomber, escort, defense, attack ). Sure, does that mean that, GASP, some may not get their favorite ride 3 weeks in a row? Why, by golly, you're right!! It's called taking turns.
Now, not to let the CMs off scott-free, I would like to mention that there seems to be a need to have a better balance of targets for both sides. For most of the series, there should be a roughly equal number of bombers assigned to targets for both sides. I understand that some don't ally themselves with that, and I did say 'most', not 'all'. Even with different rides, defending bases frame after frame gets old. This, again, goes back to the CiC to make sure each squad is assigned different tasks from week to week.
And have I missed them, or are there any more convoy/train busting JABO objectives anymore? Those were particularly fun for small squads to go in and mix it up down low.
And, finally, the squad COs should be communicating with the CiCs before orders are issued when they feel they've been getting shafted on ride assignments, and the CiCs should carefully consider their arguments. Refer to the sticky posts at the top of this forum. the 'How to be a CiC' that daddog wrote almost 4 years ago. Pay close attention to #3.
I've been flying these for 12 years, now, and the times I've gotten the most frustrated have been directly from the points I've made above. And, for those not familiar with me, I was a CM for 4 years.
Just felt I had to chip in.
Carry on.. looking forward to January. ( oh, can we also go back to strict 3 weeks on/1 week off? ) :bolt:
:salute
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Same to you and the rest of the Laughing Devils. :salute :rock
:salute I enjoyed flying with you and Barkhorn!!!!!!
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Hmmmmmm.....my FSO rating system is very simple.
BAD = Shot down and out in 40 mins or less. (only a very few have been bad)
Good = Lived long enough to engage the enemy and get a scalp.
Very Good = made it to the engagement....got a scalp.....refueled and clashed again....got another scalp before the bastages got me.
AWESOME = Very Good + landed safely with a smokin' shot up plane that collapses on the runway.
most are good to very good. the rest are split between Bad and Awesome.
Salute to All for a fun 2013 FSO Season.
AKSofty
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I agree the December FSO was awful.
Awfully thrilling.
Awfully different.
Awfully fun.
Awfully challenging.
Awfully engaging.
I had an awfully good time playing.
Thank you.
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Dito! Have the numbers been run? Do we know win/lose? :aok
I agree the December FSO was awful.
Awfully thrilling.
Awfully different.
Awfully fun.
Awfully challenging.
Awfully engaging.
I had an awfully good time playing.
Thank you.
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Dito! Have the numbers been run? Do we know win/lose? :aok
Those who did not play lost, those that did play won, and then there is the Ultimate Winners, those that flew with JG11 :devil
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Plus I don't know why Viper61 would need 10 bombers sets for 5 hangers. That's putting alot of tonnage on a single target.
Becaused he followed the rules:
Targets will be attacked and defended by a credible force. Unless stated otherwise this will be a minimum of 12 players assigned per target. This can consist of a single squad or multiple squads.
All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron....
While not clearly stated, it has been ruled in the past that a full squadron is one that has at least 7 to 10 pilots.
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i would like to invite those that are complaining about rides or bad experience, to volunteer to be CIC for a frame or 2. I know personally i put in about 14 hours for the axis orders for frame3. first i had to see what each squad flew the 2 prior frames, then i had go see what they asked for, then i had to decide who got what, what groups are stronger in fighters, and what group was better scouts, and oh yeah i had to change the orders at the 11th hour(5 hours prior to take off) because of an error that was pointed out to me(thanks stampf!!)
so before you guys get all worked up about a bad frame or 2, volunteer to be CIC or volunteer to help the CIC. get on the phone together, do the research. check the last frame or 2. if you're the first guy up, you still have to see what ride preferences are. you have to see who's gonna freak if they don't get their preferences, etc etc etc. you'll find its not as easy as people think it is.
if we had a fso open office or excel template it would be a little easier, atleast for the later guys. now saying that, we're all different. some people have time to put in 14 hours(like me) some are new, some don't care and just want to get the orders out. its a personality and dedication thing. its a tactics thing. its any of a number of things.
i am i no way chastising or beating anyone up. there is no right or wrong, there is no winner and losers. we are all trying to have fun, that's the main thing. there are just so many things that go into the orders and into each and every frame, it can be overwhelming at times. and yes occasionally someone doesn't have a good time and voice their opinion of that. this it turn makes the pressure of CIC that much harder.
I'm just saying that if there's a problem with people having a bad experience, then maybe the people complaining should volunteer or step up to the plate and get more involved and help make it better not only for the allies, but for everyone involved. i think you would find it very enlightening.
best wishes and happy new year---
Captain1ma aka Jaeger1
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Dito! Have the numbers been run? Do we know win/lose? :aok
I am working up the final scores and will post here in this forum in the next few days. :salute