Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: MADe on December 28, 2013, 11:01:22 AM
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HO'ing is done so much in game. Many use it as primary tactic. Many are just forced to turn to enemy to not bare their tail.
I wish AH would work on the collision model and how it awards who gets the win here. In real life, nose to nose collisions, both opponents would be dead.
Even if one guy blew apart the other guy, survivor would hit the pieces of the exploded plane, ruining his own if not destroying him as well.
I understand about how whats on one computer will be different on the opponents puter, but in the "nose to nose" scenario, I do not understand why one will get a reward while the other fly's away undamaged with a victory. Its really annoying. Both should lose their ride. Neither should be given a victory or both should be given a victory as well as a death.
I know that one should just veer away, but with how things are put together in game, if one does not react at the right time, you lose your chance at a shot nose to nose, and risk yourself for an easy death. I always seem to be behind the curve when it comes to others. I have good ping, a fast machine yet I get dead before the engagement should have begun. From my perspective anyways.
AH prides itself on realism, I agree that it has done a fabulous job. But can you address this in a way that prevents having to have the server decide a winner?
Happened to me again last night. I flew a strat attack with the 49'ers, 30 minute flight time, and I am basically rammed to take me out of the fight. The enemy keeps on flying and is able to continue the fight. This was a nose to nose ram. He gets a kill, I get nada. We both should get a win or both a death, both should have been grounded back to start base.
I cannot spend 8 to 12 hours a day playing AH as others seem too. All that extra flying time seems to reveal the eggcentricities of the game that I do not learn. Gets frustrating at times.
:salute
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I'm sure you have seen this picture...
(http://www.gstelmack.com/Collision.gif)
That is both computers view of the same incident laying one on top of the other. As you can see there is a lot of space to AVOID the collision. Turning head on to another guy is NEVER a good move unless your looking for a 50-50 shot at getting the other guy. If you ARE going to go for the HO, you can start shooting 1200 yards out as the closing speeds make up for the extra distance.
So if you go for the HO you can't come in here and complain about getting a collision. If you don't go for the HO, you won't GET a collision.
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HO'ing is done so much in game. Many use it as primary tactic. Many are just forced to turn to enemy to not bare their tail.
I wish AH would work on the collision model and how it awards who gets the win here. In real life, nose to nose collisions, both opponents would be dead.
Even if one guy blew apart the other guy, survivor would hit the pieces of the exploded plane, ruining his own if not destroying him as well.
I understand about how whats on one computer will be different on the opponents puter, but in the "nose to nose" scenario, I do not understand why one will get a reward while the other fly's away undamaged with a victory. Its really annoying. Both should lose their ride. Neither should be given a victory or both should be given a victory as well as a death.
I know that one should just veer away, but with how things are put together in game, if one does not react at the right time, you lose your chance at a shot nose to nose, and risk yourself for an easy death. I always seem to be behind the curve when it comes to others. I have good ping, a fast machine yet I get dead before the engagement should have begun. From my perspective anyways.
AH prides itself on realism, I agree that it has done a fabulous job. But can you address this in a way that prevents having to have the server decide a winner?
Happened to me again last night. I flew a strat attack with the 49'ers, 30 minute flight time, and I am basically rammed to take me out of the fight. The enemy keeps on flying and is able to continue the fight. This was a nose to nose ram. He gets a kill, I get nada. We both should get a win or both a death, both should have been grounded back to start base.
I cannot spend 8 to 12 hours a day playing AH as others seem too. All that extra flying time seems to reveal the eggcentricities of the game that I do not learn. Gets frustrating at times.
:salute
So you understand, yet you don't understand.
This... "I understand about how whats on one computer will be different on the opponents puter"
is your answer to this... "but in the "nose to nose" scenario, I do not understand why one will get a reward while the other fly's away undamaged with a victory."
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HO'ing is done so much in game. Many use it as primary tactic. Many are just forced to turn to enemy to not bare their tail.
I wish AH would work on the collision model and how it awards who gets the win here. In real life, nose to nose collisions, both opponents would be dead.
Even if one guy blew apart the other guy, survivor would hit the pieces of the exploded plane, ruining his own if not destroying him as well.
I understand about how whats on one computer will be different on the opponents puter, but in the "nose to nose" scenario, I do not understand why one will get a reward while the other fly's away undamaged with a victory. Its really annoying. Both should lose their ride. Neither should be given a victory or both should be given a victory as well as a death.
I know that one should just veer away, but with how things are put together in game, if one does not react at the right time, you lose your chance at a shot nose to nose, and risk yourself for an easy death. I always seem to be behind the curve when it comes to others. I have good ping, a fast machine yet I get dead before the engagement should have begun. From my perspective anyways.
AH prides itself on realism, I agree that it has done a fabulous job. But can you address this in a way that prevents having to have the server decide a winner?
Happened to me again last night. I flew a strat attack with the 49'ers, 30 minute flight time, and I am basically rammed to take me out of the fight. The enemy keeps on flying and is able to continue the fight. This was a nose to nose ram. He gets a kill, I get nada. We both should get a win or both a death, both should have been grounded back to start base.
I cannot spend 8 to 12 hours a day playing AH as others seem too. All that extra flying time seems to reveal the eggcentricities of the game that I do not learn. Gets frustrating at times.
:salute
I understand you're frustrated but you don't seem to understand that the guy who flew away didn't have a collision on his PC. You would be more frustrated if you died in a collision you didn't have. Your PC tells the server if you collided. The server does not decide who "wins" a collision. Everyone who has a collision on their PC gets damaged. No exceptions. Internet connection and PC speed do not make any difference. You are colliding for one reason. You are not avoiding the other aircraft.
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Lets face it, it's not fair. The guy who rams you from behind with no intent and no idea he is doing so gets blamed, you, who see a kamikaze smacking into you before you can react get blamed for not avoiding this Internet created maniac ghost plane. All god could do is turn off enemy collisions without telling anyone, as it is, it is what it is, please stop complaining about it, it's unmanly.
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I'm not talking coming up from behind.
I'm talking nose to nose. If he comes at me nose on, I come at him nose on. There is minimum reaction time. If he is nose on, dead center in my sight. I have to be in the center of his sight. The distance is closing very rapidly. If I collide with him, he has to collide with me.
Be a little realistic here. Not coming from behind, not from the side during a scissors move. Nose to nose.
Pemby offer something constructive. Or hush. :neener:
Fug I do not try to HO, but some times you get trapped in it. See the enemy to late, its better not to turn tail. I've done that, just get it in the arse. I suppose you can make the argument he was able to duck under, but if at 1000 and less, he is still centered in the sight, I find the argument a little thin. Also your example is a fighter behind, coming up on the bomber. Again I am talking nose to nose. Both closing at 300 mph, that's 600mph closing speed. Just an example. That's a mighty quick duck.
Your right in that I should prolly roll left or right, before closure, but still with a nose to nose why should either player get a victory. Both should be dead, sitting back at base with no victory.
I am also trying to understand the fact that the opponents puter seems to get its data to the server before mine, the server makes its choice based on 1st data in, yes?
Peeps are always hollering its a hack and what not. I do not believe anyone is hacking. Its all about when the data is reported to the server. I also do not believe that if the opponents ping time is better, his data gets there 1st, server makes its programed choice. Were talking milliseconds here. Or is it about ping time?
Skuzzy has said the game does not employ lag compensation.
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy138/spyknee/th_variance.jpg) (http://s785.photobucket.com/user/spyknee/media/variance.jpg.html)
I took this pic while I had a HO with HOtard. You can see I am getting a good connect, good FPS. I happened to win this one, but we both should have been dead instantly.
Just trying to wrap my brain around this particular thing so I can make the right combat decision other than turning and running all the time. Which does not work a lot of the time. And then you get the rep of a runner.
As I stated from the get, nose to nose, no other scenario is implied, stated, listed or given. Want to understand why it is resolved as a victory for either player.
:salute
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What part of the server doesn't pick a winner are you having trouble with? Your question was already answered.
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I think the point is that if two FE's truely do have a head on fly thru each exactly in opposition 180 degrees (when viewed from all angles of the third dimension) then both will truely record the collision regardless of lag, FR ( which has nothing to do with it) or any thing else.
Even the smallest angle of offset can cause one to record a near miss and another a collision.......... It is unfortunate that actually more often than not both parties have no collision........ which seems to motivate many to try again....
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If he is nose on, dead center in my sight. I have to be in the center of his sight.
there's your problem. that's not true.
It's entirely possible for him to be in your sight but for you not to be in his, because he already broke. it takes time for that to show up for you though.
This is why it's said there are 4 planes in a 2 player situation. (your computer's version of you both, and his computer's version of you both)
and also, the server doesn't "decide" collisions.. your own computer decides if you hit something. period.
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Just change what I said to Head On instead of from behind. Its the same thing, if the other guy collided on his computer than he would take damage, he didn't. The point is everyone likes to complain about it and it would be more productive to just accept it as a limitation, else request that there be no collisions which has its own downsides.
What kvuo75 said is the way it is. Far more annoying than the collisions that occur because of this are the bullets that pass safely behind you on your computer but score hits on your opponents computer and damage you in what appears to be a magical way.
I say just compare it to After Burner from the 80s, makes me thankful.
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Far more annoying than the collisions that occur because of this are the bullets that pass safely behind you on your computer but score hits on your opponents computer and damage you in what appears to be a magical way.
it's the same principle as collisions :)
when you're firing, YOUR computer decides bullet hits.. then sends the hit info to the other guy (thru the server), his computer trusts the info and inflicts the damage to him.
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Exactly. I guess it wasn't clear from what I wrote. I meant that the (this effect needs a name) phenomena of two slightly different games being played results in the bullet thing which I find more annoying than the collision thing. Both of which are pretty easy to live with as far as I'm concerned.
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Exactly. I guess it wasn't clear from what I wrote. I meant that the (this effect needs a name) phenomena of two slightly different games being played results in the bullet thing which I find more annoying than the collision thing. Both of which are pretty easy to live with as far as I'm concerned.
it's actually amazing it works as well as it does. :aok
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there's your problem. that's not true.
It's entirely possible for him to be in your sight but for you not to be in his, because he already broke. it takes time for that to show up for you though.
This is why it's said there are 4 planes in a 2 player situation. (your computer's version of you both, and his computer's version of you both)
and also, the server doesn't "decide" collisions.. your own computer decides if you hit something. period.
is it then possible for two cons to actually be heading towards each other. but one reports the crash before the other and thus the first one is dead and gone before the second one reports a crash?
have always been curious about that.
semp
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is it then possible for two cons to actually be heading towards each other. but one reports the crash before the other and thus the first one is dead and gone before the second one reports a crash?
have always been curious about that.
semp
two cons. 1, and 2,
1 sees a collision with 2 = 1 takes damage
1 doesn't see a collision with 2 = 1 doesn't take damage
2 sees a collision with 1 = 2 takes damage
2 doesn't see a collision with 1 = 2 doesn't take damage
in other words semp, YES, someone can collide "before" the other guy.. Just like someone can shoot before the other guy.. the internet is not instantaneous.
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was just thinking of a few effects of lag, etc...
thought experiment for "if there's a collision, both should take damage".
I'm sure you've all seen a 51 or 190 dive in on a base, not seem to pull out, but somehow "go underground" and pull up... From his end, he pulled up in time and climbed out.. from your end, it looked like he flew into the ground.
since you saw him fly into the ground, then he should die?
that's how "both sides take damage" would work.
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was just thinking of a few effects of lag, etc...
thought experiment for "if there's a collision, both should take damage".
I'm sure you've all seen a 51 or 190 dive in on a base, not seem to pull out, but somehow "go underground" and pull up... From his end, he pulled up in time and climbed out.. from your end, it looked like he flew into the ground.
since you saw him fly into the ground, then he should die?
that's how "both sides take damage" would work.
dam good point :aok
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Well said kvuo, and an analogy that might help some understand the Collision model and latency a bit better
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Every player is towing an image of them selves on a rope.......
Other players can only see this image.....
The length of the rope is proportional to speed x (combined)lag.
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Whereas I do appreciate the knowledge offered, this tab is a "WISHLIST" is it not.
Do I need to post the definition of "WISHLIST". I was also quite specific as to the wish as well, quite small really.
All that is being bandied about is just more proof of how truly non-realtime the game is.
So I am being faulted for a wish that wants just a little more realtime, realistic gameplay. I still believe that in a nose to nose posture, inside 1000 yds, things are not that far out of whack.
Maybe I should just jack up my ping time, download multiple torrents, run a movie in the background, and play music thru puter while playing the game. All of which is quite possible for me. Then I can warp around and laugh at those who complain about it.
Which is all quite contrary too what I do, keep a low ping, lean and mean machine, honest and upright game play.
My wish still stands. Its 2014, not 1995.
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Do I need to post the definition of "WISHLIST". I was also quite specific as to the wish as well, quite small really.
Your wish is still based on a faulty understanding. You last post highlights it again.
There is no advantage in collisions from a higher ping. And warping is simply a very different issue
My wish still stands. Its 2014, not 1995.
The really elegant thing about the implemented collision model: If the reasons for it that existed in 1994 would not exist anymore today, it would adapt itself. If there were no disparity due to lag, "both go down" would happen all the time.
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Whereas I do appreciate the knowledge offered, this tab is a "WISHLIST" is it not.
Do I need to post the definition of "WISHLIST". I was also quite specific as to the wish as well, quite small really.
All that is being bandied about is just more proof of how truly non-realtime the game is.
So I am being faulted for a wish that wants just a little more realtime, realistic gameplay. I still believe that in a nose to nose posture, inside 1000 yds, things are not that far out of whack.
Maybe I should just jack up my ping time, download multiple torrents, run a movie in the background, and play music thru puter while playing the game. All of which is quite possible for me. Then I can warp around and laugh at those who complain about it.
Which is all quite contrary too what I do, keep a low ping, lean and mean machine, honest and upright game play.
My wish still stands. Its 2014, not 1995.
As the technology doesn't exist ...because if it was possible don't you think they would have it? .... the wish is just that, a wish.
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(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/collision1.png) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/fieldsofink/media/collision1.png.html)
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(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/collision1.png) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/fieldsofink/media/collision1.png.html)
:lol
I was being nice about it, but you just had to do it :rofl
:aok
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:lol
I was being nice about it, but you just had to do it :rofl
:aok
:t
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I'm not talking coming up from behind.
I'm talking nose to nose. If he comes at me nose on, I come at him nose on. There is minimum reaction time. If he is nose on, dead center in my sight. I have to be in the center of his sight. The distance is closing very rapidly. If I collide with him, he has to collide with me.
Be a little realistic here. Not coming from behind, not from the side during a scissors move. Nose to nose.
Pemby offer something constructive. Or hush. :neener:
Fug I do not try to HO, but some times you get trapped in it. See the enemy to late, its better not to turn tail. I've done that, just get it in the arse. I suppose you can make the argument he was able to duck under, but if at 1000 and less, he is still centered in the sight, I find the argument a little thin. Also your example is a fighter behind, coming up on the bomber. Again I am talking nose to nose. Both closing at 300 mph, that's 600mph closing speed. Just an example. That's a mighty quick duck.
Your right in that I should prolly roll left or right, before closure, but still with a nose to nose why should either player get a victory. Both should be dead, sitting back at base with no victory.
I am also trying to understand the fact that the opponents puter seems to get its data to the server before mine, the server makes its choice based on 1st data in, yes?
Peeps are always hollering its a hack and what not. I do not believe anyone is hacking. Its all about when the data is reported to the server. I also do not believe that if the opponents ping time is better, his data gets there 1st, server makes its programed choice. Were talking milliseconds here. Or is it about ping time?
Skuzzy has said the game does not employ lag compensation.
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy138/spyknee/th_variance.jpg) (http://s785.photobucket.com/user/spyknee/media/variance.jpg.html)
I took this pic while I had a HO with HOtard. You can see I am getting a good connect, good FPS. I happened to win this one, but we both should have been dead instantly.
Just trying to wrap my brain around this particular thing so I can make the right combat decision other than turning and running all the time. Which does not work a lot of the time. And then you get the rep of a runner.
As I stated from the get, nose to nose, no other scenario is implied, stated, listed or given. Want to understand why it is resolved as a victory for either player.
:salute
you can see a ho attempt instantly if a plane is coming straight at you. u have plenty of time to turn away--so turn--don't wait for them to turn.and where do u think he got his name.his name is a hint of what to expect..heh i'll ho you to..i think this is just another usless wine post.
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As the technology doesn't exist ...because if it was possible don't you think they would have it? .... the wish is just that, a wish.
If it was all done server side, which I believe some other games do, wouldn't it work how they want it as far as the collisions go?
As I understand it, the downside to having all the calculations server-side would be input lag. Have things progressed enough since 2000 to make that more viable, or is the amount of input lag you'd wind up with still not 'good enough' for a game like this?
Or would there be more things that could be done by inducing lag that would make having it all server-side a much worse situation?
Wiley.
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If it was all done server side, which I believe some other games do, wouldn't it work how they want it as far as the collisions go?
No. If the collisions are done any other way what you see is what you get is out the door.
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No. If the collisions are done any other way what you see is what you get is out the door.
Forgive a simplistic question, but what am I missing? Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
><
Planes go boom.
Now lag would alter the timing of the FE reporting what happened, but I guess I'm just having trouble envisioning what that would look like. Would it be a warp? Would it be an inability to control your plane?
Wiley.
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(http://cdn.gifbay.com/2012/12/mfw_i_pull_out_a_nose_hair-17567.gif)
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Forgive a simplistic question, but what am I missing? Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
><
Planes go boom.
Now lag would alter the timing of the FE reporting what happened, but I guess I'm just having trouble envisioning what that would look like. Would it be a warp? Would it be an inability to control your plane?
Wiley.
If it is a true HO in every plain then the above happens now.... In real time simultaneously .....but not in the same place.
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Forgive a simplistic question, but what am I missing? Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
The server doesn't tell the FEs where they are and then the FEs render it. The server just relays information from one FE to other FEs.
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
><
Planes go boom.
Now lag would alter the timing of the FE reporting what happened, but I guess I'm just having trouble envisioning what that would look like. Would it be a warp? Would it be an inability to control your plane?
Wiley.
The game would be unplayable if your FE had to wait for a response from the server before rendering.
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Forgive a simplistic question, but what am I missing? Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
> <
Server tells both FE's planes are here and both FE's render it:
><
Planes go boom.
Now lag would alter the timing of the FE reporting what happened, but I guess I'm just having trouble envisioning what that would look like. Would it be a warp? Would it be an inability to control your plane?
Wiley.
Head on and both shooting and hitting, wouldn't the faster connection always win?
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The server doesn't tell the FEs where they are and then the FEs render it. The server just relays information from one FE to other FEs.
The game would be unplayable if your FE had to wait for a response from the server before rendering.
Been thinking on it a bit and I think I can imagine what it would be like. Your FE can't predict the future so any delay in transmission would cause you to rubberband to where the server says you are.
Looking at that, how it is now really is the best possible solution. As the tech improves so do the results from the game.
Wiley.
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Head on and both shooting and hitting, wouldn't the faster connection always win?
It's combined lag so in effect both will lose as both will score hits before being advised of hits on themselves.
Confirmation of hits ie death of opponent will follow .
This assumes that both fire at the same time on their own front ends.
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The heart of the 'collision model is broken' argument always seems to involve 'I did this while the other guy did that!' when in fact neither player knows the precise timing of what the other guy did, their intent or the amount of potential lag involved.
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The heart of the 'collision model is broken' argument always seems to involve 'I did this while the other guy did that!' when in fact neither player knows the precise timing of what the other guy did, their intent or the amount of potential lag involved.
I think this is one of the few things that HTC should explain in detail and post somewhere on the forums (like the rules are at the top). Except it would be under a new tab.
Then showing examples like fugitive posted, etc. (or one of my videos showing a bomber dying from me, and then lagging backwards causing me to collide and get killed)
That way posts like these aren't made, so players aren't mocked for 'asking a question that has been answered # of times" etc.
Just a thought.
Happy New Year
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I think this is one of the few things that HTC should explain in detail and post somewhere on the forums (like the rules are at the top). Except it would be under a new tab.
Then showing examples like fugitive posted, etc. (or one of my videos showing a bomber dying from me, and then lagging backwards causing me to collide and get killed)
That way posts like these aren't made, so players aren't mocked for 'asking a question that has been answered # of times" etc.
Just a thought.
Happy New Year
Happy New Year! :cheers:
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It's combined lag so in effect both will lose as both will score hits before being advised of hits on themselves.
Confirmation of hits ie death of opponent will follow .
This assumes that both fire at the same time on their own front ends.
Combined lag is what we have now. Wiley was asking about differences if it was server based.
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Nice wishlist item (hard to change, but you can ask). Until something magical happens, if you would like to know how to handle/avoid this situation feel free to look me up (AkMeathd). Flying nit this month (1/2014)