Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scherf on January 11, 2014, 03:45:02 AM
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Unless my eyes deceive me, the sequence starting at about 4:16 here:
https://archive.org/details/CS-2277
shows a Jugoon shooting a 109 off another Jugoon's tail. Never seen that before.
109 driver seems quite a slippery and skillful character.
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Interesting to note a fourth plane cut across the path of the filming Jug as well. Nice find :aok
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I wouldn't say it was fixation, the poor chap is in a 109 he can't exactly look behind him all that well.
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Jesus, 8 .50s put down a reign of terror
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Is that a P38 that slips into the film around 11:03?
Helm ...out
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Think so. What I can't ID is the a/c which first appears at 8:30. Some kind of 109 with rads open? Trick of the light?
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Think so. What I can't ID is the a/c which first appears at 8:30. Some kind of 109 with rads open? Trick of the light?
I'm thinking it might be another recce Spitfire taking friendly hits. Looks like retractable tail wheel. Might even be a PR19
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That was my first thought, my second was "Lord, not again."
Will have a squizzo for losses.
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FWIW, Capt. Taylor's Encounter Report is here:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/359-taylor-5aug44.jpg
Damndest Fw-190 I ever did see, but I can't find any evidence of any incidents with RAF recce birds which would fit.
Neither 541 nor 542 were even in the area that day, and there's no mention of any incident with 4, 16, 400 Sqns etc in the Shores/Thomas series on 2nd TAF.
I swear I can see Spitty rads, and when it dives over the nose looks like it has a chin scoop, as opposed to a radial engine.
Maybe USAAF? Maybe I just don't know my 190s...
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FWIW, Capt. Taylor's Encounter Report is here:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/359-taylor-5aug44.jpg
Damndest Fw-190 I ever did see, but I can't find any evidence of any incidents with RAF recce birds which would fit.
Neither 541 nor 542 were even in the area that day, and there's no mention of any incident with 4, 16, 400 Sqns etc in the Shores/Thomas series on 2nd TAF.
I swear I can see Spitty rads, and when it dives over the nose looks like it has a chin scoop, as opposed to a radial engine.
Maybe USAAF? Maybe I just don't know my 190s...
Probably a USAAF recce bird. I'm seeing the same thing you are. That is not a 190 :)
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Well, its a fact - the USAAF did award victory credits for 'friendly fire' shoot-downs..
There is the gun cam Mosquito downing footage which was credited as a Me 410, when it was so obviously not..
Mind you, even though the painted the tails of their recce Mozzies bright red, & then escorted them
with P-51's, they were still subject to 'friendly fire' attacks..
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Well, its a fact - the USAAF did award victory credits for 'friendly fire' shoot-downs..
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2648/5712609140_981de11511_o.jpg)
:P
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Dang! Ol' 'Curses' Curdes done nearly got hisself a whole set!
Bet he's figurin'...
"Now where's them damn Limey's at!" ..yeeeehaaaaww...
& I wonder if 'n it was a damn yankee, or maybe.. even.. a red tail... he zapped..
Them dang carmmunist Russkies might wanna watch their red arses with him around, too,
since a red star'd go real nicely on that victory board..
Or was it mebbie a salt-crusted barnacle-scrapin' blue-bellied USN Hellcat he done deep sixed, yeah..
Yeah, them swabbies done dang-sure meet the criteria as enemy combatants, army-wise, anyhow..
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target fixation... seems to be my Achilles heel, i can not stop doing it... I can remember how many times I went down knowing that i am gonna go down if i dont broke in about couple secs...
feels like its harder to stop smoking to stop target fixations.... :bhead
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Think so. What I can't ID is the a/c which first appears at 8:30. Some kind of 109 with rads open? Trick of the light?
I'm seeing what looks very much like a spit with a Griffin engine. Hence, the extra deep radiators.
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(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2648/5712609140_981de11511_o.jpg)
:P
Would be nice to see it in the game :)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,318273.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,318273.0.html)
Another
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/63d66c37-d4fe-4dba-bcca-a51d7dc81346_zps7db3318f.png)
:cheers:
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Pretty sick thing to do. "Yeah, I'll paint this little flag on my plane to celebrate the killing a friendly who probably didn't even fight back because he actually has eyes and used them rather than being a trigger happy stunninghunk!"
Should have been court-marshalled and shot.
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Pretty sick thing to do. "Yeah, I'll paint this little flag on my plane to celebrate the killing a friendly who probably didn't even fight back because he actually has eyes and used them rather than being a trigger happy stunninghunk!"
Should have been court-marshalled and shot.
Which?
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What?
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What?
You said they should of been shot... just wondering which one of the 2 or both?
Thanx for playing,
:eek:
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No one in particular. Anyone who shoots down a friendly and then brags about it instead of hanging their head in shame.
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No one in particular. Anyone who shoots down a friendly and then brags about it instead of hanging their head in shame.
Oh ... I see you just happen to blurt that out ... kinda like Tourette's :lol
:cheers:
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Yeah... SHOOT THEM! ;)
:cheers:
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Yeah... SHOOT THEM! ;)
:cheers:
Well Curdes did on purpose ...and bragged about it and rightly so..... :aok
:cheers:
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See Rule #4
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See RUle #4
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Like what?
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From Bob Spurdle's (CO of 80 Sqd 2nd TAF, late `44) memoir 'The Blue Arena' - re this topic..
"On Sortie No' 551 some USAAF Mustangs jumped us. Enraged, I turned on my particular
tormentor & scared him fartless by firing bursts 1st on one side & then on the other,
while he twisted & turned helpless against the far superior Tempest.
Formating alongside I shook my fist at the stupid jerk & then zoomed away.
We should've hacked a few down to teach them aircraft recognition.
We were sick of their trigger happy stupidities.
One of the wing's pilots painted a white star on his machine, adding it to his string of swastikas.
He was told to remove it.
The squadron commanders of the wings under Air Vice Marshall Broadhurst's control were assembled
at Eindhoven for a general briefing on future operations & on the war's progress.
The AVM, in passing, told us that if our aircraft were subjected to any more bouncing by our gallant
allies, we could retaliate & no disciplinary action would be taken.
An extraordinary scene followed - cheering, back-slapping, laughing pilots surrounded our popular commander.
We'd had more than enough of this sort of aggravation."
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Indeed.
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I'm still snooping around that aircraft from 5th August which looked like a Spit.
There's no records of a Spit lost (that I can find) from either the RAF or the USAAF on that date which would fit, however a 109 of 7./JG 5 did come down about 20 km to the northwest of where Captain Taylor made his claim - Uffz Gerhard Kraus, 7./JG 5, KIA at Selsingen. Don't have a time of crash, but the location's pretty damn close, same date. JG 5 doesn't appear to have any other losses close by, though there was one down by Bielefeld.
So, I dunno, trick of the light and open rads after all? Hope a 109 Experte chimes in...
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(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2648/5712609140_981de11511_o.jpg)
:P
The c47 Curdes shot down was coincidendally carrying his girlfriend. The important thing is that neither he nor the survivors lost their sense of humor about it. Unlike some.
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I was also a bit confused by that scene and the 6oc profile looks a lot like Spitty but when the plane pitches downwards it looks like a 109. I think that in Griffon engined Spitty the rads were extending more outwards from the wing rather than being broad and I'd say that the plane in video has broad radiators.
I'd say it is a 109 with rad flaps wide open.
-C+
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The c47 Curdes shot down was coincidendally carrying his girlfriend. The important thing is that neither he nor the survivors lost their sense of humor about it. Unlike some.
Check out the name of his crew chief.
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Some of those hit sprites on trains and ground targets look like heavy cannon, not 0.50.
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It's an RAF Spit. Early in the clip you can even see the large roundels on the top of the wings. No German crosses. When it noses down you can also see the trailing edge of the wings are curved, not straight. It's a Spitfire.
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Yeah, I thought I saw the roundels too. Thing is, for the life of me I can't find any Spit loss, RAF or USAAF, which would fit (there's a website which has transcribed all the Air Britain stuff for Spits. I suppose there might have been finger trouble somewhere along the way, however both AB and the site seem spot-on for Mossies).
As the late and un-lamented J.A.W. pointed out, there's US guncam film of a Mossie being shot down, was credited as a 410, have chapter and verse on that one.
Dunno, maybe film from a different date? Would seem strange if so. The date is prior to the breakout in Normandy, so 2nd TAF Spitties wouldn't be near Bremen, and the long-range boys were also over France on that date. Emailed a US researcher whether he had any hints, he told me no issues for the USAAF recce Spits that day.
Hmmm.
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Maybe it wasn't a total loss. If it's near friendly territory it could have made it down safely. Damage/repair records? Were blue-on-blue incidents recorded or suppressed for morale reasons?
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Before people get more worked up by the allied flags on the two planes:
Regarding Gerald Johnson, "Earlier in the war, Johnson mistakenly shot down a Wirraway he though was a Zero. Apparently he was scrambled from Oz to intercept some Zeros and was told no Aussie aircraft were in the area. Anyway, the pilot ditched his Wirraway and only suffered some scratches. The kill marking was only on Gerry's plane for a couple months in 1945." From
http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=24245
also see
http://veterantributes.org/TributeDetail.php?recordID=569
Regarding Louis Curdes: "Curdes turned out to sea and saw a familiar aircraft lumbering toward him.
It was an American C-47 transport, heading for a landing at the enemy airfield he'd just shot up. Later he would learn that it was lost, its radio was out and it was nearly out of fuel. Its pilot believed the strip he'd spotted lay in American-held territory.
Curdes flew in front of the C-47 twice to try to make it turn away, but its pilot
refused. He knew of only one other way to stop the disaster-bound craft. He dropped behind the C-47, which now was curving toward the island on its final approach. He cut loose with his six .50-caliber machine guns and destroyed one of its two engines.
Then he dropped behind it again, crossed to the other side and destroyed its other engine. The transport crashed into the sea. But Curdes' shooting had been so precise that he hadn't struck the plane's fuselage or harmed the dozen Americans, including two nurses, inside.
Curdes scrawled a note, flew above the rafts at an altitude of 50 feet, and dropped them the message: "For God's sake, keep away from shore. Japs there." The Americans were rescued by seaplanes the next morning. A few days later,
Curdes received his second Distinguished Flying Cross and became the only U.S. flier in the war to be decorated for shooting down another U.S. plane in combat."
from
http://www.news-sentinel.com/article/2014140609785
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Thanks for the facts, Brooke. :salute
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Maybe it wasn't a total loss. If it's near friendly territory it could have made it down safely. Damage/repair records? Were blue-on-blue incidents recorded or suppressed for morale reasons?
Wondered about that myself - don't see how it could have made it from near Bremen either to Normandy or across the North Sea after that much damage, something is issuing forth from that aircraft in large quantities.
I get the impression that the blue-on-blue stuff between RAF units was well known at the unit level, though of course dead men tell no tales. There's a number of late-war Mossie bomber losses which I believe were down to Mossie night fighters, no-one was there to confirm of course, especially in what became the Soviet zone of occupation.
As for RAF/USAAF stuff, only thing I've read at the unit level was one of the recce squadrons in the Med having regular meetings with the American fighter command in an effort to reduce the number of times its aircraft had to dodge P-51s (IIRC that squad didn't lose any to friendly fire, though 140 Squadron of 2nd TAF lost two aircraft to friendly fire, none to the Luftwaffe). Eventually, because of the FF stuff, as well as the Me 262 threat, they were given USAAF escorts, including by the Red Tails.
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It got hit in the left radiator and what looks like the right wing fuel tank. Didn't look like the right radiator was leaking. No fire. Could be a perfectly flyable aircraft if it got away from Mr. Magoo...
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Pretty sick thing to do. "Yeah, I'll paint this little flag on my plane to celebrate the killing a friendly who probably didn't even fight back because he actually has eyes and used them rather than being a trigger happy stunninghunk!"
Should have been court-marshalled and shot.
A little trigger happy yourself? Jump to conclusions and you might just fire on a friendly too. :eek:
Before people get more worked up by the allied flags on the two planes:
Regarding Louis Curdes: "Curdes turned out to sea and saw a familiar aircraft lumbering toward him.
It was an American C-47 transport, heading for a landing at the enemy airfield he'd just shot up. Later he would learn that it was lost, its radio was out and it was nearly out of fuel. Its pilot believed the strip he'd spotted lay in American-held territory.
Curdes flew in front of the C-47 twice to try to make it turn away, but its pilot
refused. He knew of only one other way to stop the disaster-bound craft. He dropped behind the C-47, which now was curving toward the island on its final approach. He cut loose with his six .50-caliber machine guns and destroyed one of its two engines.
Then he dropped behind it again, crossed to the other side and destroyed its other engine. The transport crashed into the sea. But Curdes' shooting had been so precise that he hadn't struck the plane's fuselage or harmed the dozen Americans, including two nurses, inside.
Curdes scrawled a note, flew above the rafts at an altitude of 50 feet, and dropped them the message: "For God's sake, keep away from shore. Japs there." The Americans were rescued by seaplanes the next morning. A few days later,
Curdes received his second Distinguished Flying Cross and became the only U.S. flier in the war to be decorated for shooting down another U.S. plane in combat."
from
http://www.news-sentinel.com/article/2014140609785
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I was more concerned about the little Australian flag...
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It got hit in the left radiator and what looks like the right wing fuel tank. Didn't look like the right radiator was leaking. No fire. Could be a perfectly flyable aircraft if it got away from Mr. Magoo...
I suppose so. The USAAF researcher guy told me there were four Spit XI sorties that day from the 7th PRG, all returned safely to Mount Farm. He also said he knew of a couple of incidents where a US recce Spit was bounced by friendlies but climbed away - if the encounter in the report started at 24k, the Spit would have been rather low, especially as the weather is reported as CAVU, ceiling and visibility unrestricted.
I may have a squizz into the 4, 16 and 400 ORBs for August, to see if 2 TAF was out that way after all...
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I was more concerned about the little Australian flag...
It's wasn't official, and IIRC, the crew chief painted it on as a joke.
ack-ack