Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Films and Screenshots => Topic started by: icepac on February 02, 2014, 06:47:00 PM
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Sunsfan is a very good and a good sport even with my questioning what constitutes a merge.
This is my second k4 sortie ever and my 6th hurricane sortie but plenty of time in the I16 though I have no excuse for spinning in the 110g considering how often I fly it.
1. hurricane IIc
2. I16
3. 109k4
4. 110g
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Suns is one of the best :aok
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I had some good opportunities in the hurricane duel but missed the shots and I made the mistake of pulling to hard in trying to end the 110 duel quickly and spun it.
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Crossing flight paths is a merge. Whether you both be turning or flying straight or over and under it's a merge. That's how I always learned.
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the "merge" starts at icon range.
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Icepac you can start turning before you pass your opponent, you just can't shoot before the first pass.
If that's not clear enough training is available.
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Deleted. Found the links.
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I will continue to fly straight until the merge.
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I'll happily train you on merging icepac.
:salute
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You are confusing knowing how to merge with my not agreeing with what is considered a proper merge in aces high.
Don't you have more whining to do in the "Clean fight or not?" thread?
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Niiice icepac.
Slap away the olive branch.
Please do continue.
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ice
the merge starts as soon as you reach icon range.....
the whole point of DAing is to get better at fighting...and practice for the MA.....flying straight at each other is just gonna get you a face full...
long before you "pass" each other you should be maneuvering.....
otherwise its just a matter of who pulls back faster....
I know right away if someone knows how to fight...if they fly at me straight...they have no clue....if they are maneuvering for a shot, other then my face...I know they know how to fight.
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If you 'merged' with me like that the first time I would have selected 100% fuel for the next round I would put the plane on auto level at the merge and go off down the shops for an hour :rofl
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The whole point of a "duel" is for there to be a level playing field from the beginning. With that in mind it does not appear that was the case in this scenario, because icepac is still providing that he is confused as to the meaning of merge. In fact, the definition in play here does not agree with historical precedent, which defines the merge as a neutral pass. Typically, the fight does not begin until the 3-9 line is crossed, thus the 'merge' is to the point of crossing (the 3-9 line). If this convention is not followed then all you have is a guns hot, front-quarter intercept.
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The whole point of a "duel" is for there to be a level playing field from the beginning. With that in mind it does not appear that was the case in this scenario, because icepac is still providing that he is confused as to the meaning of merge. In fact, the definition in play here does not agree with historical precedent, which defines the merge as a neutral pass. Typically, the fight does not begin until the 3-9 line is crossed, thus the 'merge' is to the point of crossing (the 3-9 line). If this convention is not followed then all you have is a guns hot, front-quarter intercept.
If your going to bring up the rules you should read them first. :aok
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If your going to bring up the rules you should read them first. :aok
or actually go to DA and fight. :noid
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Either one of you could drop the obfuscation concerning dueling at any time. Neither of you know anything worth learning, except how to be an air combat gamer.
For anyone else wanting a glimpse of the real stuff, I give you "Speed and Angels," which will give you more insight into fights than any fight in the DA can give you.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/49206
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You are confusing knowing how to merge with my not agreeing with what is considered a proper merge in aces high.
Don't you have more whining to do in the "Clean fight or not?" thread?
Clap Clap!
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Either one of you could drop the obfuscation concerning dueling at any time. Neither of you know anything worth learning, except how to be an air combat gamer.
For anyone else wanting a glimpse of the real stuff, I give you "Speed and Angels," which will give you more insight into fights than any fight in the DA can give you.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/49206
ahh man....I am sorry........ I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.....
hell you have been flying so long I will be easy to kill....with your vast unsurpassed skills.....I really want to learn from the best.....I know after only 1 DA session with you I would be 100% better......
hell I would learn more from you in one session then the 1000s of DA fights I have had.....
alas my ego is easily bruised....so please take it easy on me and let me last at least 1 turn before you kill me.
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Either one of you could drop the obfuscation concerning dueling at any time. Neither of you know anything worth learning, except how to be an air combat gamer.
For anyone else wanting a glimpse of the real stuff, I give you "Speed and Angels," which will give you more insight into fights than any fight in the DA can give you.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/49206
:lol As it just so happens this is a video game forum. I think I found the right place :aok
Unless your getting shot at, it's all a game, and made to be fun.
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Either one of you could drop the obfuscation concerning dueling at any time. Neither of you know anything worth learning, except how to be an air combat gamer.
For anyone else wanting a glimpse of the real stuff, I give you "Speed and Angels," which will give you more insight into fights than any fight in the DA can give you.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/49206
your video link to a 21st century billion dollar jet fight is really relevant to our 20th century world war 2 game.. :rolleyes:
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your video link to a 21st century billion dollar jet fight is really relevant to our 20th century world war 2 game.. :rolleyes:
:rofl :rofl
I didn't bother looking at the link.....
chalenge I have found to be...mentally challenged....
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And this is exactly why none of you are qualified to teach anyone about anything.
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And this is exactly why none of you are qualified to teach anyone about anything.
U r teh smarts den?
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And this is exactly why none of you are qualified to teach anyone about anything.
you are right...we are scum who know nothing...we talk mad smack about how great we are in this cartoon game....but refuse to go to the DA and actually back up our words....
oh wait...that is you not us...sorry talking to you has addled my brain again.
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If you 'merged' with me like that the first time I would have selected 100% fuel for the next round I would put the plane on auto level at the merge and go off down the shops for an hour :rofl
Funny.....in the first fight we never got further than 1000 yards away.
I also landed the first bullets but sadly had 303s selected meaning the fight could very well have ended had I selected the 4x20mm.
So you're saying you would have run away if I didn't immediately turn with you at the merge?
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Funny.....in the first fight we never got further than 1000 yards away.
I also landed the first bullets but sadly had 303s selected meaning the fight could very well have ended had I selected the 4x20mm.
So you're saying you would have run away if I didn't immediately turn with you at the merge?
I think everyone should consider the possibility that icepac is trolling you all with his "merge questions".
In my assessment (opinion) he claimed ignorance of what a merge is in order to get a clear definition that doesn't require him to turn at the first merge. His claim that he flew straight and level at the alt cap to "make sure a merge took place" has nothing to do with "what a merge is". His real intent is to contend (or demonstrate) that you don't need to dive and turn at the initial merge to win. I'm not saying I agree with it, although I am no dueling expert, but I am certain that is the point he is trying to make. Why he is not just coming out and saying that, I don't know, other than he may be enjoying trolling you on the subject and likely he intends to use the same "merge tactic" in later rounds in the tournament.
If you watch the films, you will see what did was avoid an immediate angles fight (by not diving and turning) and instead forced a protracted energy fight, while making the opponent turn, chase and climb to him. This almost works.
In each film you can see icepac winds up with a slight altitude advantage coming into the second merge where both aircraft are at or near stall. A little better gunnery may have even won him more rounds, though I'm not sure he had the energy to keep his nose up for a kill shot in the Hurri round. In the I-16 round, Suns stalls and icepac wins. In the 110 round, icepac stalls and Suns wins. The other two rounds came down to better gunnery and lead angles by Suns.
I think icepac is probably used to stalling people out in fights, rather than angle fighting. So, he attempted to use that approach in his duels. In my opinion, he used his feigned ignorance about merges as subterfuge to disguise his intent or to troll all the DA experts, or both.
He knows what a merge is. He just doesn't subscribe to what most duelers do at/after the merge, which is turn.
I hope this saves those of you being trolled from further headaches.
<S>
Ryno
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If Challenge was a college professor, then he would be the one my buddies and I would loosen the bolts on his swivel chair.
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:noid
:rofl
:cheers:
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If Challenge was a college professor, then he would be the one my buddies and I would loosen the bolts on his swivel chair.
They let guys like you in college? Now that's funny!
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I think everyone should consider the possibility that icepac is trolling you all with his "merge questions".
In my assessment (opinion) he claimed ignorance of what a merge is in order to get a clear definition that doesn't require him to turn at the first merge. His claim that he flew straight and level at the alt cap to "make sure a merge took place" has nothing to do with "what a merge is". His real intent is to contend (or demonstrate) that you don't need to dive and turn at the initial merge to win. I'm not saying I agree with it, although I am no dueling expert, but I am certain that is the point he is trying to make. Why he is not just coming out and saying that, I don't know, other than he may be enjoying trolling you on the subject and likely he intends to use the same "merge tactic" in later rounds in the tournament.
If you watch the films, you will see what did was avoid an immediate angles fight (by not diving and turning) and instead forced a protracted energy fight, while making the opponent turn, chase and climb to him. This almost works.
In each film you can see icepac winds up with a slight altitude advantage coming into the second merge where both aircraft are at or near stall. A little better gunnery may have even won him more rounds, though I'm not sure he had the energy to keep his nose up for a kill shot in the Hurri round. In the I-16 round, Suns stalls and icepac wins. In the 110 round, icepac stalls and Suns wins. The other two rounds came down to better gunnery and lead angles by Suns.
I think icepac is probably used to stalling people out in fights, rather than angle fighting. So, he attempted to use that approach in his duels. In my opinion, he used his feigned ignorance about merges as subterfuge to disguise his intent or to troll all the DA experts, or both.
He knows what a merge is. He just doesn't subscribe to what most duelers do at/after the merge, which is turn.
I hope this saves those of you being trolled from further headaches.
<S>
Ryno
Quite frankly, only in the DA environment would icepac's choice of merge tactics work (since most duels have cold merges) but in the MA environment its one of the worst merges you can employ as it leave you wide open for the opponent to use a lead turn merge.
Also, what icepac calls a "proper merge" is anything but as there is no single "proper merge" tactic to employ. What merge you use is very dependent on the situation and as such, you will find yourself using different types of merges.
ack-ack
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Quite frankly, only in the DA environment would icepac's choice of merge tactics work
If it works in the DA then is icepac's "extend and climb" merge a "proper merge" for a duel setting?
It appears that with more effective gunnery, it would work.
I'm curious to hear from the experienced duelers and trainers about this type of merge, especially those who profess the "get lower and fight from the bottom" approach. Why is that better than conserving E and going up?
Again, I am no DA expert, so I am actually curious about comparing these merge techniques.
<S>
Ryno
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It is impossible for two exactly the same planes starting at exactly the same E to win an E advantage off the merge unless one of the pilots deliberately wastes E. With equal planes and equal pilots the extend and climb style merge will only ever result in the 'extendee' being chased by the other. Obviously that is a very clean cut statement that does not relate to differing skill level and/or poor choices.
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If it works in the DA then is icepac's "extend and climb" merge a "proper merge" for a duel setting?
No. The only reason why it's a viable tactic in the DA is that most duels have a cold merge. In the MA, a merge like his would most likely lead to head on shots by both parties. It's also not the best merge to employ in a duel either. Basically, a merge like the one he did was to set the fight for an Energy fight, hoping that the other opponent will burn his energy in turning his plane 180 degrees and not being able to follow the other guy in a climb, basically being roped. However, this is easily countered by the other guy by using a low-G vertical turn to preserve and maintain their energy state to follow the 1st pilot and close within gun range for a shot.
It appears that with more effective gunnery, it would work.
With effective gunnery, it would most likely favor the 2nd guy if he has sufficient energy to close within gun range. I recently dueled someone in P-38Js and he used the same merge as icepac, while I used a low-G vertical turn to reverse and follow him up. The other guy had slightly more energy than I did but I had enough to close within gun range and get the shot both times for the victory.
I'm curious to hear from the experienced duelers and trainers about this type of merge, especially those who profess the "get lower and fight from the bottom" approach. Why is that better than conserving E and going up?
The reason I don't like to use that type of merge is because it really does limit your options as you're basically committing to one type of fighting, Energy and if the other guy has sufficient (remember that you don't have to match him E for E) energy to counter, the 1st guy quickly starts to lose options, especially if he's starting to lose E himself trying to maintain his climb while trying to rope you.
I don't remember if I filmed the fights I was referring to. When I get home I'll check and post the films if I have them and you can see why these types of merges aren't the best.
ack-ack
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I don't remember if I filmed the fights I was referring to. When I get home I'll check and post the films if I have them and you can see why these types of merges aren't the best.
ack-ack
Cool. Thanks for the detailed answer. I'd love to see the films.
I've personally been curious about this subject, because the double-immelman (as an E fighting move) doesn't seem to work well in duels. I've struggled to adapt to duels in AH, a result of my learning to "fly" years ago in Warbirds, where Energy is everything, because it was easier to lose and harder to regain than it is in AH and "getting to the top" with a smoother first/second merge was the way to win.
However AH seems to favor angles over energy in most cases, especially in equal plane, equal E-state merges like duels, because energy is more easily regained and kill-shots are far easier to make in AH, which is why someone lower E still has a chance to get a kill via the better angle.
That said, I'm not sure exactly what advantage "the bottom" gives you after a merge.
Perhaps I just haven't put it all together in practice yet.
Thanks again for the feedback.
<S>
Ryno
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They let guys like you in college? Now that's funny!
They let someone like you out in public? Now that's funny! :rofl
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Cool. Thanks for the detailed answer. I'd love to see the films.
I've personally been curious about this subject, because the double-immelman (as an E fighting move) doesn't seem to work well in duels. I've struggled to adapt to duels in AH, a result of my learning to "fly" years ago in Warbirds, where Energy is everything, because it was easier to lose and harder to regain than it is in AH and "getting to the top" with a smoother first/second merge was the way to win.
However AH seems to favor angles over energy in most cases, especially in equal plane, equal E-state merges like duels, because energy is more easily regained and kill-shots are far easier to make in AH, which is why someone lower E still has a chance to get a kill via the better angle.
That said, I'm not sure exactly what advantage "the bottom" gives you after a merge.
Perhaps I just haven't put it all together in practice yet.
Thanks again for the feedback.
<S>
Ryno
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p620/monkeyfarmer/PaNEAD_zpscebb4dc11_zpsb03d6f74.png)
Let me try and explain the basic principle behind what I call a negative energy advantage. I don't know if this is a correct term or if there is another term for it.
From the above graphic:
Let us presume that the opponent's speed is 250mph. All speeds will be based on a fictional aircraft not in aceshigh.
We are also assuming that both pilots desire to achieve a firing solution or die trying. There will be no desire to exit the fight for either aircraft.
Pink - Negative Energy Disadvantage
<200mph
This means that you are too slow to pose any threat to the opponent. You will be attacked until conclusion or the circumstances change.
Dark Green - Negative Energy Advantage
200-235mph
This means you are slow enough to turn tighter than your opponent but also that you are fast enough to be in a vertical pursuit against the opponent. The difference between being too slow to pose a threat and being in vertical pursuit is that in vertical pursuit you are able to get your nose pointed at the enemy for a firing solution, or, at the very least, force your opponent to keep climbing out of reach. This negates the opponent's ability to turn back down and bring his guns onto you without first passing through your gunsite.
This position also puts you in the perfect stance to initiate a rolling scissors fight should the opponent manage to turn back down into you without either of you being shot. Rolling scissors are almost always won by the player at a negative energy advantage.
A negative energy advantage makes use of the single most important dimension in ACMs, the weapons strapped to the planes. You do not have to be the same speed as your opponent to kill them when you have a bunch of guns. You don't have to be able to run as fast as a gazelle to put a bullet through it. All you need do is get close enough to be in firing range. When two planes turn back into each other in order to fire the one at a negative energy advantage will always be first to guns on.
This is the dangerous playground of the most experienced pure duelling fighters in this game. The sticks who always beat you even though you started faster or higher. They could at anytime make the decision to play more tactically to ensure the same victory but the gamble of seeking the negative energy advantage is faster, more effective and far more satisfying and as such, more risky. When a negative energy advantage is gained and then utilized correctly you simply cannot lose.
Purple - Co-E
235-265mph
A few mph either side make no odds. This is as equal as it gets. Hoping to achieve a Co-E position for the win is about as useful as jousting on the merge. 50-50 chances. Does not mean you won't win but it does mean you could lose.
Red - Positive Energy Disadvantage
265-300mpg
The opponent now has the negative energy advantage. Everything above now applies against you.
Light Green - Positive Energy Advantage
300mph+
Reverse of the first back on you. What is true of the NEA is also true of the PEA. When a positive energy advantage is gained and then utilized correctly you simply cannot lose. However it is a lot easier to throw away a positive energy advantage because you are always predictable. You have to attack.
Either areas on the graph in shades of green are what any dueller is trying to achieve off the merge if they have any good sense about them. The important factor in your decision as to which is the merge E. If the merge is set for co-E then you are far better off aiming for a negative energy adv than a positive energy adv because the later replies on the opponent wasting E.
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A negative energy advantage makes use of the single most important dimension in ACMs, the weapons strapped to the planes. You do not have to be the same speed as your opponent to kill them when you have a bunch of guns. You don't have to be able to run as fast as a gazelle to put a bullet through it. All you need do is get close enough to be in firing range. When two planes turn back into each other in order to fire the one at a negative energy advantage will always be first to guns on.
Interesting stuff. I like how the chart illustrates how narrow a window that "negative E advantage" is. But, I'm not sure I fully grasp how it is being achieved.
What is curious to me, is that you answered this in terms of speed. What I most often hear duelers saying is they want is to be lower ("fighting from the bottom") after the initial merge, but not that they are also slower. Assuming one plane turns more in the vertical while the other turns flatter, isn't the one who turned vertically (and is higher) also the one that is going slower coming into the second merge. Wouldn't the higher/slower plane thus have the "negative E (slower speed) advantage" you describe? This is kind of where the wheels come off for me.
At what point exactly are you intending to be slower? Diving into the merge doesn't imply getting slower, nor does turning flatter (below) your opponent.
Perhaps you can elaborate more on how this "negative E advantage" is obtained.
Much of this seems counter-intuitive to me and is the exact opposite of what I learned in Warbirds, hence my difficulty in conceptualizing it.
<S>
Ryno
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You are right, my diagram is labelled incorrectly. The vertical axis should read 'Energy' and the opponents energy should be listed not speed.
When I say 'just slow enough' that should say 'just little enough energy' as should all things that are described as speed. It's so easy to label energy as speed, I will have to make sure I don't get sloppy like this in future :)
It is easier to explain explain energy in term of speed. It would be more challenging to explain the same theory in terms of speed+altitude. But you can assume that altitude is also factored in to the speed listings.
eg:
250mph + 3000ft = PEA over 250mph guy 3k below.
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You are right, my diagram is labelled incorrectly. The vertical axis should read 'Energy' and the opponents energy should be listed not speed.
When I say 'just slow enough' that should say 'just little enough energy' as should all things that are described as speed. It's so easy to label energy as speed, I will have to make sure I don't get sloppy like this in future :)
It is easier to explain explain energy in term of speed. It would be more challenging to explain the same theory in terms of speed+altitude. But you can assume that altitude is also factored in to the speed listings.
eg:
250mph + 3000ft = PEA over 250mph guy 3k below.
If I understand you correctly then, the objective is to wind up with just slightly less energy than your opponent after the merge, because co-E, same plane there is no likelihood of a large +E advantage to be gained by either pilot. Therefore you want to be a little slower and lower, because you can more easily turn inside at the second merge and either go to guns or win a scissors fight.
Is that the long and short of it?
I can see why dueling is so counter-intuitive to me, as this approach runs opposite of everything I have ever been taught.
<S>
Ryno
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Yes exactly that. Having slightly less speed and/or altitude is the most likely way to win a co-e fight with a head on merge although with that reward comes the risk of cocking it up.
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although with that reward comes the risk of cocking it up.
By that I assume you mean missing your shot(s) opportunities.
In watching films of finalists, I have noticed that most of the winners in the dueling brackets are the ones who always land hits when they fire. This was one of the factors that made me decide to truly focus on gunnery and start a course for my squad.
Now that I understand why fighting from the bottom makes sense in a same-plane, co-E situation, I may consider trying to expand my skill-set into that arena some.
Thanks again for the feedback.
<S>
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In watching films of finalists, I have noticed that most of the winners in the dueling brackets are the ones who always land hits when they fire.
I always tell people, "you may out fly me, but I will out shoot you"
My shooting ability in game has long been my strongest fighting attribute in my opinion.
Still trying to improve my dog fighting.
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I always tell people, "you may out fly me, but I will out shoot you"
My shooting ability in game has long been my strongest fighting attribute in my opinion.
Still trying to improve my dog fighting.
I'm still working to improve both.
But once I started getting "cheater/hack/aimbot" accusations in the MA, I knew my gunnery was getting good. :)
<S>
Ryno
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I always tell people, "you may out fly me, but I will out shoot you"
My shooting ability in game has long been my strongest fighting attribute in my opinion.
Still trying to improve my dog fighting.
yup you do have excellent aim.... :aok
mine is the exact opposite :lol
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Interesting stuff. I like how the chart illustrates how narrow a window that "negative E advantage" is. But, I'm not sure I fully grasp how it is being achieved.
What is curious to me, is that you answered this in terms of speed. What I most often hear duelers saying is they want is to be lower ("fighting from the bottom") after the initial merge, but not that they are also slower. Assuming one plane turns more in the vertical while the other turns flatter, isn't the one who turned vertically (and is higher) also the one that is going slower coming into the second merge. Wouldn't the higher/slower plane thus have the "negative E (slower speed) advantage" you describe? This is kind of where the wheels come off for me.
At what point exactly are you intending to be slower? Diving into the merge doesn't imply getting slower, nor does turning flatter (below) your opponent.
Perhaps you can elaborate more on how this "negative E advantage" is obtained.
Much of this seems counter-intuitive to me and is the exact opposite of what I learned in Warbirds, hence my difficulty in conceptualizing it.
<S>
Ryno
So this next question is the much trickier one to learn and/or explain. It is quite like a chess match when both pilots fight each other with the same tactics. If you've played chess much you'll know that even being one pawn down is a death sentence fighting an evenly matched or better opponent. But, unlike chess, if both pilots climb for E and are not hoing each other then in theory the fight could last forever. The same with any style or tactic.
So if both pilot's are going for a -energy adv what you get is a nerve racking stalemate of cold merges until someone slips up or tries something new. There are of course ways to defeat that situation, and then counter measures for those counter measures, and on and on. The intricacies of how to gain that small window of negative advantage are so complex that to explain it is futile. We have to actually chase it and gain it to understand how our bodies must react in controlling the aircraft no matter how many diagrams the mind ingests.
Judging your opponent's energy is another huge hurdle. Most of us have trained ourselves to recognise when an enemy aircraft is too slow to kill us and when one is too fast for us to get them. Not so many have worked with that bit in between. As with everything else in this game, we can't learn how to judge e states in any specific fighting style unless we fly that style experimentally ourselves first.
For a tour fly to battle at no more than 6k in a fighter. You will learn about -energy adv if you stick it out for the whole month. Devote yourself to a flying style for long enough to add it to your belt and then call back on your old styles with a new addition to the trick book.
By that I assume you mean missing your shot(s) opportunities.
Actually the first and worst way of doing it would be the failure to reach a -energy adv and putting yourself intentionally into a -energy disadv. But yeah, missing easy shots is a terrible confidence sinker at a crucial moment.
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Basically this game is very complex, but yet very simple. :joystick: :old: