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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fire484 on February 06, 2014, 09:00:52 PM

Title: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Fire484 on February 06, 2014, 09:00:52 PM
Didn't see it on here yet, apologies if I overlooked it!

http://youtu.be/URyKMUKlXAc
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Tank-Ace on February 06, 2014, 11:16:16 PM
God the 262 just looks beautiful. I would give anything to fly one in real life.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 07, 2014, 12:08:20 AM
Awesome!

I wonder what engines they use on that one?
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: artik on February 07, 2014, 12:25:36 AM
Awesome!

I wonder what engines they use on that one?

I assume these are General Electric CJ610, the J85 derivatives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Flyable_reproductions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_262_Project
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: homersipes on February 07, 2014, 05:37:07 AM
Quote
God the 262 just looks beautiful. I would give anything to fly one in real life.
:aok :devil it only takes $$$$$ and lots of it  :airplane
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/ma_me262program.htm
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Nypsy on February 07, 2014, 07:09:48 AM
Thanks for sharing that link.  :aok
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: CAP1 on February 07, 2014, 07:45:17 AM
God the 262 just looks beautiful. I would give anything to fly one in real life.

 i believe the collings foundation tours the country with one.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Slate on February 07, 2014, 10:29:30 AM

    A video on Luftwaffe training on a 262.  Who knew it had a pull start.  :headscratch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH0ULVmsow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH0ULVmsow)
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: SilverZ06 on February 07, 2014, 10:48:04 AM
God the 262 just looks beautiful. I would give anything to fly one in real life.

You just need a pilots license and $4500 and you can fly it in real life.
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/ma_me262program.htm


EDIT: DOH!  :bhead Homersipes beat me to it.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 07, 2014, 12:38:27 PM
    A video on Luftwaffe training on a 262.  Who knew it had a pull start.  :headscratch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH0ULVmsow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH0ULVmsow)

It's has two lawnmower starter-engines. ;)

Interesting to see that the 262 also has a CG problem with a full aft fuel tank.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 07, 2014, 12:43:18 PM
Also interesting to see the 262 actually had WEP!
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Sabre on February 07, 2014, 03:06:23 PM
Without a doubt, the 262 is one of the most beautiful fighter planes of all time! Thanks for sharing.

GScholz, is your icon from "Inglorious Bastards"?
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 07, 2014, 04:04:51 PM
Yup  :aok

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/Gh77i.gif)
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Vulcan on February 08, 2014, 02:54:48 AM
Was the Typhoon trying to vulch at the end?
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: ozrocker on February 08, 2014, 08:55:44 AM
Collings Foundation 190F8 looks sweet too :aok




                                                                                                                                                          :cheers: Oz
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Wildcatdad on February 08, 2014, 08:58:14 AM
Yup  :aok

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/Gh77i.gif)
Great movie! Did you ever see DJango?
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Tank-Ace on February 08, 2014, 11:45:34 AM
Without a doubt, the 262 is one of the most beautiful fighter planes of all time! Thanks for sharing.

GScholz, is your icon from "Inglorious Bastards"?
We need a graphics update for the 262  :noid.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 08, 2014, 12:24:38 PM
Great movie! Did you ever see DJango?


Yeah, it was awesome!
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Rich46yo on February 09, 2014, 02:28:53 AM
Was the Typhoon trying to vulch at the end?

I dont know why they spent so much money trying to remake the wheel. Did the world really need another 4th gen fighter at 120 m apiece? Especially when its air to ground role is highly questionable. Even its ATA role is in an era of stealth and BVR. They cant even get anyone to buy the thing outside of the Euro partners.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: artik on February 09, 2014, 04:18:36 AM
I dont know why they spent so much money trying to remake the wheel. Did the world really need another 4th gen fighter at 120 m apiece? Especially when its air to ground role is highly questionable. Even its ATA role is in an era of stealth and BVR. They cant even get anyone to buy the thing outside of the Euro partners.

And what exactly the alternative do you suggest for UK, Germany?

- 30 years old design of US F-15 & F-16?
- Dassault Rafale  :rolleyes:
- MiG-35 or Su-35?
- Super Overpriced and non-available F-22

Don't forget it isn't only about having great fighter. It is also having ind
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 09, 2014, 10:02:39 AM
Yes, the economic/industrial aspect of government investments are often overlooked in debates like this. It's not just about getting the best plane, or the right price.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Rich46yo on February 09, 2014, 11:09:57 AM
Quote
And what exactly the alternative do you suggest for UK, Germany?

- 30 years old design of US F-15 & F-16?

Yes, the latest versions being about the same as the Eurofighter. Which BTW is a very fine 4th Gen fighter but its not truly multi-role and they cant sell the dang thing.

Quote
Yes, the economic/industrial aspect of government investments are often overlooked in debates like this. It's not just about getting the best plane, or the right price.

Bad idea to build an airplane JUST to provide jobs. The idea is to make money, like Airbus does, and its the reason EF will be the last Euro-consortium fighter made.

I just dont see this program as being successful. Not when you weigh threat/capability/cost.

The Govts involved in both the EF and Rafael say true stealth was not a design parameter because the threat level just wasnt there. Yet the lack of all aspect stealth is the very reason nobody wants to buy their fighters. Neither are cheap either.

Looking at modern History, say Falklands and later, but most of all Gulf-1 and later, and what has been the primary use of the modern fighter/bomber? It has been ground attack! 90% of the time they are bomb trucks, most of all in the modern age where all strikes will be with precision weaponry. Take out the enemies radars and integrated AA and the game is over before it even started. Opening night precision ground attacks will win or lose the war.

Thats why India refused the EF and why the Saudis have been only pretending they want it.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 09, 2014, 12:59:28 PM
Well... Apart from the partner nations UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, three other nations have bought the EF with a total production of more than 500 aircraft. The Saudis have ordered 72 of them, that's just one less than Spain.

As for the future of European cooperation in aircraft production it is a given that it will be under the Airbus Group, which is in part owned by among others the governments of the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

However... We are now seeing the last generations of manned fighters. Europe has long since moved on to stealth UCAV development. Names to look out for in the future skies over Europe are Taranis, Barracuda, Unmanned Gripen...


... and nEUROn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSnpYYEYwY#t=344  a pan-European effort headed by Dassault.

Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Rich46yo on February 09, 2014, 01:27:27 PM
Lol, they have been "ordering" them for over 8 years.

Yes the future will see only one Euro consortium. Of course we said that once before when they split over the last next Gen fighter.

The end of the Cold War dried up the traditional 3rd world markets for fighter aircraft. It really hurt the French.

Kind of a pity as both are fine aircraft.



Well... Apart from the partner nations UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, three other nations have bought the EF with a total production of more than 500 aircraft. The Saudis have ordered 72 of them, that's just one less than Spain.

As for the future of European cooperation in aircraft production it is a given that it will be under the Airbus Group, which is in part owned by among others the governments of the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

However... We are now seeing the last generations of manned fighters. Europe has long since moved on to stealth UCAV development. Names to look out for in the future skies over Europe are Taranis, Barracuda, Unmanned Gripen...


... and nEUROn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSnpYYEYwY#t=344  a pan-European effort headed by Dassault.


Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on February 09, 2014, 01:51:11 PM
Lol, they have been "ordering" them for over 8 years.

... of which 32 have been delivered as of November 2013.


(http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Eurofighter_Saudi_Delivery_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Rich46yo on February 09, 2014, 06:16:31 PM
Actually its 28, and the Saudis can afford to crap 28 airplanes. The UAE pulled out, India pulled out, the RAF cut back its order and the Saudis are haggling over the rest of THEIR order due to the price. Its possible the Saudis wont even complete their modest order. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2527272/OPINION-Who-buy-BAEs-Eurofighter-now.html

Hey Im not rooting for the thing to fail. Its just bad timing for such a fighter in the export market. Most of all after its embarrassing debut in Libya.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: artik on February 10, 2014, 03:48:40 AM
Bad idea to build an airplane JUST to provide jobs. The idea is to make money, like Airbus does, and its the reason EF will be the last Euro-consortium fighter made.

I just dont see this program as being successful. Not when you weigh threat/capability/cost.

It isn't about the jobs... it is about independence from the whatever idea comes to the leaders of a "friendly" countries and put an embargo on sales or does not provide you what you need because the government had changed or because they don't like your foreign policy.

Such a situation can bite very hard, so having local airspace industry has much more value even if the aircraft you buy would be overpriced or not 100% fit your needs (which it rather not true about the 2nd)

Want some examples?

Israel was hardly screwed up by Charles de Gaulle's embargo in 1967 when all the airforce was based on French technology.

Today Israel mostly buys "airframes" from US and fill it with Israeli avionics - like F-16I which is basically US airframe and engine, with home build avionics and weapons. Even many of modern F-16 blocks upgrades come from Israeli source, like conformal fuel tanks that were designed by IAI, the helmet mounted display etc, such that today Israeli latest F-15I and F-16I or older F-16C/D in many ways better then "similar" planes owned by USAF.

India is doing a smart thing - being independent of a single source, it has Russian Su-30MKI and MiG-29K, develops its own aircraft HAL Tejas, and buys French Rafale so even if one party would try to screw they they would still keep the airforce.

Even small Taiwan developed their own aircraft AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo because of the politics restrictions.

And USA? Try to sell something to them... they'd rather buy an overpriced system of local production, 10 years later that isn't nearly as effective as foreign alternative just not to be dependent of an external source.

So having your own airspace industries is more important than being able to buy maybe cheaper or slightly better planes. Also you can't say that Typhoon isn't one of the most advanced 4++ generation fighters...
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Rich46yo on February 10, 2014, 11:32:42 AM
We have bought airplanes, or designs, from British companies. I myself saw a B59 Canberra in service. And we buy a lot of other military equipment, or co-develop, with allied nations.

But as the largest arms producer in the world it would be kinda silly to expect us to buy a lot of foreign arms.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Zeagle on March 04, 2014, 07:44:04 PM
Awesome video!

One day I would like to get some dual in the Collings foundation schulflugzeug. (http://www.collingsfoundation.org/ma_me262.htm) It is based in New Smyrna Beach, FL or maybe Texas now? Hmmm Might be a good reason to head out in the RV.

Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: GScholz on March 04, 2014, 08:54:24 PM
But as the largest arms producer in the world it would be kinda silly to expect us to buy a lot of foreign arms.

It isn't silly at all. You do buy a lot of foreign arms. From the German gun on the Abrams to the Italian pistol your army uses as a sidearm, most of the US Army's weapons are of European origin (license-produced in the US of course).
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: fbEagle on March 07, 2014, 08:25:57 PM
God the typhoon is one ugly duck, especially next to that beautiful plane  :rock
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: Rich46yo on March 08, 2014, 04:04:12 AM
It isn't silly at all. You do buy a lot of foreign arms. From the German gun on the Abrams to the Italian pistol your army uses as a sidearm, most of the US Army's weapons are of European origin (license-produced in the US of course).

As I already said we do buy from, and develop with, allied nations over foreign arms. But its not "a lot". And the Abrams isnt one of them, tho I think its reactive armor may be made under License from the Brits, possibly its main gun from someone. America accounts for 44% of the worlds arms trade, Russia 17%, France 8%, the UK 5%,Germany 4%, Italy 3%, other Europe 10%, other-other 4%. Of all them, offhand, the only ones we co-develop with is the brits, the Aussies for some ship work on one system, I think the Swedes for one gun system, Norway for one missile system, and thats about it. Its a very small %, tho an important one and I for one hope our co development and even purchase from good friends continue as long as it add capability and saves money.
Title: Re: Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying
Post by: LCADolby on March 08, 2014, 06:03:27 AM
God the typhoon is one ugly duck, especially next to that beautiful plane  :rock
:aok