Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scherf on February 07, 2014, 08:07:48 PM
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Folks,
I see from the search function that the Lightning "sometimes" carried 2x2k bombs - was this the Droop Snoot or the G, H, J / L etc.?
Also, any info on how often "sometimes" is, and when and where?
Not trying to stir the pot, but America's Hundred Thousand doesn't have any info (at least that I can find).
TIA
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Usually the 2,000 pounders were dropped in level formation bombing with either a P-38 Droop Snoot or a P-38J/L Pathfinder equipped with the AN/APS-15 navigation/attack radar acting as 'bomb lead'. I don't recall reading anything about using the 2,000 pounders in dive bombing attacks. How often were they used? Not sure, but I'm sure you could find out by looking at the after mission reports from various squadrons. I don't think it was rare, and could have been a regular payload when P-38s were used to level bomb targets that were otherwise considered to risky for dive bombing or when weather obscured the target.
ack-ack
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Thanks Ack-Ack.
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I don't recall reading anything about using the 2,000 pounders in dive bombing attacks.
One of the few times I got to talk to a real P-38 pilot,he told me that they did not dive bomb with 2k bombs, only level bombing.
I think it would be fun to do a droop-snoot mission with 2k bombs. Hit a factory, or city, then jump in a furball.
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Usually the 2,000 pounders were dropped in level formation bombing with either a P-38 Droop Snoot or a P-38J/L Pathfinder equipped with the AN/APS-15 navigation/attack radar acting as 'bomb lead'. I don't recall reading anything about using the 2,000 pounders in dive bombing attacks. How often were they used? Not sure, but I'm sure you could find out by looking at the after mission reports from various squadrons. I don't think it was rare, and could have been a regular payload when P-38s were used to level bomb targets that were otherwise considered to risky for dive bombing or when weather obscured the target.
ack-ack
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And I am sure that now Lancasters were used as dive bomber
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And I am sure that now Lancasters were used as dive bomber
I don't see it in AH either. I am sure it happens, but a tiny minority of Lanc sorties. Even the low altitude GV carpet bombing is done, in my experience, while flying the Lancaster level.
Honestly, if HTC added the 2k bombs for the P-38L we all know how those would be used. 1) As the Tu-2S has demonstrated 2,000lb ordnance is extremely effective at killing GVs. 2) Two 2,000lb bombs and fourteen 5" rockets would make the P-38L, by far, the most commonly used mass raid of fighter-bombers in the game. 3) Kamikaze attacks by P-38Ls would become more common.
In my opinion we need to shrink the bombs on fighter-bombers, not grow them. Perk 500lb and above bombs on fighters. Say, 1 perk per 500lber/250kger, 3 perks per 1000lber/500kger and 9 perks per 2000lber/1000kger. 250lbers/100kger and rockets would be free.
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2) Two 2,000lb bombs and fourteen 5" rockets would make the P-38L, by far, the most commonly used mass raid of fighter-bombers in the game.
I could go for 14 rockets.
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I could go for 14 rockets.
Oops, 10. My mistake.
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So the 110G and 190F-8 are the only German fighters that get to carry free bombs :headscratch:?
Sorry Karnak, but thats just a craptastic idea. Perk 1000lb-class ordnance? Maybe. 500lb-class? No.
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So the 110G and 190F-8 are the only German fighters that get to carry free bombs :headscratch:?
Sorry Karnak, but thats just a craptastic idea. Perk 1000lb-class ordnance? Maybe. 500lb-class? No.
In the MA I really don't give a damn about nationalistic BS. How many American, British or Japanese fighters would have free bombs? You jump to assume the German stuff would be disproportionately affected compared to others.
For the AvA and events the desired ordnance will be enabled as the creator(s) want.
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IIRC, every US fighter that can carrydecreases diversity is mbs can also carry 250lb bombs.
Can't recall which (if any) Japanese fighters carry 250lb bombs. Only know that the Ki 43 and Ki84 CAN@ carry 500lb bombs.
If none can, that's even more reason to not do it. It would make the US fighters the ONLY viable option for JABO sorties. And any mechanism that decreases diversity is a horrible idea.
IIRC, the Spit XVI would be a strong contender for JABO sorties.
Basically, a horrendous idea Karnak.
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I know this is getting off-topic, but what about having a finite amount of bombs at an airfield. X amount of 1000lb bombs, X amount of 500lb bombs, X amount of rockets, etc etc. And the airfield would be resupplied by the truck convoys every 3 or 4 hours.
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I know this is getting off-topic, but what about having a finite amount of bombs at an airfield. X amount of 1000lb bombs, X amount of 500lb bombs, X amount of rockets, etc etc. And the airfield would be resupplied by the truck convoys every 3 or 4 hours.
and droping the ord bunkers would destroy the current reserve of the field
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And I am sure that now Lancasters were used as dive bomber
And this has anything do with the OP's question?
ack-ack
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IIRC, every US fighter that can carrydecreases diversity is mbs can also carry 250lb bombs.
Can't recall which (if any) Japanese fighters carry 250lb bombs. Only know that the Ki 43 and Ki84 CAN@ carry 500lb bombs.
If none can, that's even more reason to not do it. It would make the US fighters the ONLY viable option for JABO sorties. And any mechanism that decreases diversity is a horrible idea.
IIRC, the Spit XVI would be a strong contender for JABO sorties.
Basically, a horrendous idea Karnak.
Ki-43, Ki-61, Ki-84 and N1K2-J would be no more viable than anything else that has to pay a couple of perks as their 250kg bombs would be perked. The A6Ms would be able to carry theirs still. I am not sure about all British aircraft, but the Spit XVI could carry a few 250lbers, the Mossie could carry two 250lbers and eight 60lb rockets or four 250lbers. Spits VIII and IX might be able to carry a single 250lber and Hurri II might carry two of them. Russian fighters would be unaffected, but as they carry practically nothing as it is that wouldn't change much. I don't recall which American fighters have options for 250lbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if many or most only have 500lbers or larger available.
Seems to me that the British might gain the most from my suggestion, although I will honestly say I picked 250lb as the free point to avoid being accused of picking 500lbers because the Mossie's biggest bombs are 500lbers. I really think that 1000lbers ought to be controlled and 2000lbers would absolutely need to be controlled.
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I have always been a supporter of the perk-ordnance idea. Placing the free limit at 250kg/500lbs will leave most jabos with a viable free loadout. The 1000lbs are the real problem - the principal one is that it brings the fighters into the regime of the medium bombers. Perk the 1000lbs and medium bombers may see a boost in their tactical role. The other is that 1000lbs bust GVs so easy due to the large blast radius. With 500 lbs, aiming needs to be better in order to surgically bomb a vehicle.
There will need to be some exceptions, because if the free 250kg/500lbs rule is applied to bombers, Some dive bombers will have a problem - for example, the SBD, whose main loadout is a single 1000lbs AP bomb and if that is taken, a free SBD will be even more useless than it already is. So for bombers there is room for some consideration, but fighters need everything over 250kg/500lbs perked.
The actual cost can be kept cheap - 1 perk per 1000lbs bomb still allow one to roll a typhoon or a P-51 and go on a 2-perk suicide mission. Under a perked ord system, by all means, add the 2000lbs for the P-38.
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same go for minengeschoss and HVAP / volfram AP shots.
Then, a 190F8 would be pretty useless in its attack role paying perks for AT rockets and its 1000 bomb
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I'm all for realism in loadout as long as the flight parameter restrictions are also imposed.
If the P38 only dropped 2000 pound bombs in level bombing, then htc could code that the bomb get's stuck and cannot be dropped when you yank around the plane or are diving it beyond a few degrees angle.
I also think F3 mode (ez chair 30 yards behind plane with unrealistic view) should only be available on bombers if you are in positions other than the pilot.
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same go for minengeschoss and HVAP / volfram AP shots.
Then, a 190F8 would be pretty useless in its attack role paying perks for AT rockets and its 1000 bomb
Nobody has suggested perking rockets.
If the P38 only dropped 2000 pound bombs in level bombing, then htc could code that the bomb get's stuck and cannot be dropped when you yank around the plane or are diving it beyond a few degrees angle.
That ought to cause the bombs to tear the shackles off the P-38. They weren't strong enough to hold 2000lbs in any sort of maneuvers. The braces would also punch holes in the aircraft as the bomb shifted.
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I thought about shackles tearing off but why not saddle the unrealistic flier with having to fly with the bomb attached until he lands and ends sortie?
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I thought about shackles tearing off but why not saddle the unrealistic flier with having to fly with the bomb attached until he lands and ends sortie?
Agreed. I am sure there are other aircraft that would lose bombs and shackles as things already are.
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same go for minengeschoss and HVAP / volfram AP shots.
Then, a 190F8 would be pretty useless in its attack role paying perks for AT rockets and its 1000 bomb
dude I like you but stop feeling so persecuted, it saddens me
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Karnak, been away from the house for the weekend, but just checked.
The only US fighters that do not carry a 250lb or smaller bomb are the: P-39D, P-39Q, P-40C, P-40E, P-40F, P-40N, P-47D-11, and the P-47M
All variants of the F4U can carry a 250lb lb bomb, as can the F6F, all P-38's, P-51's, and all P-47's save the M and D-11.
Infact, here is a list of all fighters in the game that carry 250lb or smaller bombs, and total ordnance capacity using those bombs:
A6M-2: 220lbs
A6M-5b: 220lbs
110G-2: 440lbs
190F-8: 440lbs
F4F-4: 200lbs
FM2: 200lbs
F4U-1: 250lbs
F4U-1A: 250lbs
F4U-1C: 500lbs
F4U-1D: 500lbs
F4U-4: 500lbs
La-5FN: 440lbs
La-7: 440lbs
Mosquito VI: 1000lbs
P-38G: 500lbs
P-38J: 500lbs
P-38L: 500lbs
P-47D-25: 500lbs
P-47D-40: 500lbs
P-47N: 500lbs
P-51B: 500lbs
P-51D: 500lbs
Spitfire XVI: 500lbs
Typhoon: 500lbs
Basically, using bombs alone, the Mossie is the only fighter capable of carrying 1000lbs. The USA dominates the list with 15 of 22 fighters able to carry free ordnance under your proposed restrictions. UK is second with 3 aircraft. Russia, Japan, and Germany are tied for last place with two fighters each.
And I guarantee I can pretty accurately rank which fighters will be used most often:
P-51D
P-38L
F4U-1D
P-47D-40
Mosquito VI
Typhoon
La-7
Spitfire XVI
Now think about that: Do you REALLY want to further increase the P-51D's usage even further? I mean for bombs alone, its tied for second greatest ordnance capacity. Hell, the La-7, probably the best fighter on this list, is just as viable an option for a JABO raid as the 110 is. Do you really want a horde of La-7's or Spitfire XVI's flying NOE alongside those lancaster?
Because I sure as hell don't. Just a bad idea in general.
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As I said, I prefer the 500lb/250kg mark, but given that coincides with my usual fighter's max individual bomb size I said 250lb on a whim to avoid looking like I was favoring the Mossie.
500lb/250kg I think works better anyways, and keeps the bombers more valuable.
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The thing is that the 250lb bombs already favors the Mossie to the same degree as 500lb bombs do. Perhaps more so, given that there are even fewer viable options.
I would like to see a 190F-8 update before we got this though, just so the F-8 could remain a competitive fighter bomber, as in real life.
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Some people need to lower their sense of 'elitism' down a couple of notches, less they look like fools.
ack-ack
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rockets aside maybe a limit could be found at 1000lb/500kg total for fighters. But then there is the mosquito and the 110, would they get the limitation also?
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rockets aside maybe a limit could be found at 1000lb/500kg total for fighters. But then there is the mosquito and the 110, would they get the limitation also?
Make it a limitation per engine :)
The problem is not the total weight. A heavier stronger AC carried more ordnance. The issue is specific to the 1000 lbs bombs that were rarely used by fighter bombers and are standard loadout in AH. It should be emphasized again that no loadout option is to be removed and 1000 lbs will be available for a very minor perk cost.
Also, for this to work at all the system has to be extremely simple and uniform. So if 1000 lbs and above are perked, they should be perked for all planes rolling out of the FH at the exact same price.
It should be emphasized that perked planes and ordnance are free - as long as you bring the plane back to land. People tend to forget that and think that every sortie in a perked plane means perks lost. By all means load the P-51D with 2*1000 lbs, just don't commit suicide and you'll get your perks back. If you plan to repeatedly fly into the acks to pork as many structures on the base before the acks or players kill you, consider doing so with 500 lbs bombs...
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The 1000lbs are the real problem - the principal one is that it brings the fighters into the regime of the medium bombers. Perk the 1000lbs and medium bombers may see a boost in their tac
The actual cost can be kept cheap - 1 perk per 1000lbs bomb still allow one to roll a typhoon or a P-51 and go on a 2-perk suicide mission. Under a perked ord system, by all means, add the 2000lbs for the P-38.
Keep in mind the hanger represents lost aircraft or equipment not lost buildings. Put unoccupied airplanes and equipment out on the ground to be strafed and bombed solves the big bomb problem wouldn't you think. Rockets and 500# bombs would be the common load out then.
It is either that or score partial damage on buildings and increase the damaged and downtime.
Lots of coding in either case in a time when people are demanding better graphics.