Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: tuton25 on February 10, 2014, 08:02:59 PM
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This ride really doesn't warrant a perk cost. It has a bellow average bomb load, no defensive armament, and is easily beaten when jumped by fighters. The only thing it has is its speed, the fastest prop bomber in the game. With a perk cost no one takes it on low altitude precision bombing, something it was known for. The only time you take it up high is over the strats, and that puts you in 163 territory. To me its skills have been over exaggerated similar to the spit 14....
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It carries 4k in a single bomber, so with the drones you do the math.
It is one of the fastest planes in-game, let alone bombers.
If you are above 25k, unless someone meets up with you that is higher or close to co-alt it is near impossible to catch the Mossie 16.
I think the perk cost is good, regardless of the things you said.
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Lancaster carries 14k...
Even with all that speed, the Icons don't allow you to run away very well...
Not very may climb to above 12k for bombing non-strats...
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Lancaster carries 14k...
Even with all that speed, the Icons don't allow you to run away very well...
Not very may climb to above 12k for bombing non-strats...
Current perk price is reasonable given the capabilities of the aircraft.
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Lancaster carries 14k...
Even with all that speed, the Icons don't allow you to run away very well...
Not very may climb to above 12k for bombing non-strats...
It is perked for a good reason. It has a good chance to make it to target and back again with a large loadout and small chance of an intercept.
If people want to throw away perks by not climbing to alt with this buff then so be it. Its like saying 262s suck in a furball because people try to turn fight with it.
With the TU-2/B-26/He111/Betty why do you want to use a Mossie XVI at low alt?
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This ride really doesn't warrant a perk cost. It has a bellow average bomb load, no defensive armament, and is easily beaten when jumped by fighters. The only thing it has is its speed, the fastest prop bomber in the game. With a perk cost no one takes it on low altitude precision bombing, something it was known for. The only time you take it up high is over the strats, and that puts you in 163 territory. To me its skills have been over exaggerated similar to the spit 14....
I am not aware of all that much use of the Mk XVI as a low altitude bomber. Most of the low altitude precision work by Mosquitoes was done by the Mosquito Mk VI (which we also have) or sometimes the Mosquito Mk IV (which we don't have but will hopefully some day).
The Mk XVI was mostly used to bomb strategic targets from high altitude where it was almost impossible to intercept with anything short of an Me262.
The altitude I normally drop from in a Mk XVI is 28,000ft.
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I usually use a single plane to drop ordnance or troops at a field. That's tactical bombing, and damn effective. What's not effective is going in at 4k to drop the VH, or come in at medium altitude and hit the town, which I suspect is what you mostly want to do.
Let me just say the Mossie XVI would be just about the only bomber you see used for NOE raids.
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I am not aware of all that much use of the Mk XVI as a low altitude bomber. Most of the low altitude precision work by Mosquitoes was done by the Mosquito Mk VI (which we also have) or sometimes the Mosquito Mk IV (which we don't have but will hopefully some day).
The Mk XVI was mostly used to bomb strategic targets from high altitude where it was almost impossible to intercept with anything short of an Me262.
The altitude I normally drop from in a Mk XVI is 28,000ft.
This particular aircraft is, according to "Mosquito" by Sharp & Bowyer, ML963, 8K-K "King" of 571 Squadron, the picture having been taken on 30 September 1944, after the aircraft had completed repairs at Hatfield. ML963 was first issued to 109 Squadron on 9 March 1944, going on to 692 Squadron on the 24th of the same month, and then on to 571 on 19 April 1944. It was damaged in action on 12 May 1944 but returned to the Squadron on 23 October of that year. Barry Blunt's history of 571 Squadron says ML963 completed 84 operations with the Squadron, 31 of them to Berlin (one of the others was a low-level sortie to skip-bomb a 4,000 lb bomb into the Bitburg Tunnel, undertaken on New Year's Day, 1945. The crew were Flt Lt Norman J Griffiths & Flg Off WR Ball). Its final sortie came on 10/11 April 1945, when it was abandoned following an engine fire. The crew of F/O R.D. Oliver and F/S L.M. Young both returned safely to the Squadron later that month
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I usually use a single plane to drop ordnance or troops at a field. That's tactical bombing, and damn effective. What's not effective is going in at 4k to drop the VH, or come in at medium altitude and hit the town, which I suspect is what you mostly want to do.
Let me just say the Mossie XVI would be just about the only bomber you see used for NOE raids.
I don't see why you would use a Mossie XVI since it can't shoot back (in large NOE raids)....
Why wouldn't you take a fast, well defended bomber like a B-26 and take almost twice the bombload???
If it was unperked it would see about as much use as the Boston 3....
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In the time you can get a Lancaster formation to 30k you can make at least two sorties in a Mossie XVI (and probably three) at the same alt. It's perked, but it's not expensive. Using a Mossie XVI to drop ord or troops is rather a stretch. At altitude it is not a very accurate bomber unless you have lined up from a long distance. This is the bomber I use for bombing and I have yet to be caught with it. I once had a 262 chase me all the way home and he was so bent on getting a kill he died in the ack trying to shoot me on the rearm pad. Yes, I was home and on the rearm pad before a 262 caught me. That's why it's perked.
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If it was unperked it would see about as much use as the Boston 3....
Not even close.
The bomber's I used to fly the most were Lancs, AR234's and Bostons. Bostons don't have the speed, range or ord carrying capability of the Mossie. In fact, of the three, the Mossie is closest to the AR234 in overall capability.
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I usually use a single plane to drop ordnance or troops at a field. That's tactical bombing, and damn effective. What's not effective is going in at 4k to drop the VH, or come in at medium altitude and hit the town, which I suspect is what you mostly want to do.
Let me just say the Mossie XVI would be just about the only bomber you see used for NOE raids.
Dude, for the purpose of town busting from medium altitudes the XVI mossie with without peers. That supersized beer keg it carriers in the bay was not called the block buster for nothing. Players have no clue how to use this plane. For tactical bombing leave the drones at home and come with a single plane. It is FAR more survivable in a fighter environment than any Lanc formation, will climb to 10k AGL in just over 3 minutes and will RTB at 400+ mph (shallow dive) to make another run, while the lanc formation is still trying to make a 15miles radius turn towards the target.
Two (singles) of these babies can flatten a town by themselves. My record is 23 structures and field guns destroyed by one(!) cookie. The system messages overflowed the (expanded) text buffer and I had to scroll back in order to count the messages :) Satisfaction cannot describe it. On that sortie I dropped from 12k through a fighters CAP, threw off a high P-51 that jumped me immediately after the drop and made it home without a scratch.
Defensive guns are just a distraction from the main mission.
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Dude, for the purpose of town busting from medium altitudes the XVI mossie with without peers. That supersized beer keg it carriers in the bay was not called the block buster for nothing. Players have no clue how to use this plane. For tactical bombing leave the drones at home and come with a single plane. It is FAR more survivable in a fighter environment than any Lanc formation, will climb to 10k AGL in just over 3 minutes and will RTB at 400+ mph (shallow dive) to make another run, while the lanc formation is still trying to make a 15miles radius turn towards the target.
Hmmmm.... interesting. I had forgotten that it is blockbuster bomb... :x
I'll give it a try next time...
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Almost forgot, about the perk cost - KEEP IT PERKED!
Drones are abused as F*** in AH since they cost nothing and K/D is not counted in bomber score. Mossie XVI free drones will be treated as disposable mules and what we DON'T want to see are free formations of XVIs lobbing 3 cookies a-piece at towns, bases, and carriers, with very limited ability to intercept them before they drop. For the players that use them this way, it matters not whether they survive after the drop. If they are shot down, it only makes their return trip shorter, so they can up again and lob another 3 cookies at your town/field/CV.
At 20 perk price tag, losing a formation is 60 perks which stings. This is a good thing, because the formation is not disposeable and a player will want to keep his drones alive and RTB. Losing a single XVI is only 20 perks and bomber perks are cheap, so taking a single perked XVI is affordable. IF there was a way to perk formation drones, then getting the lead XVI for free may have been a viable option, but a free formation of XVIs will be abused.
Hmmmm.... interesting. I had forgotten that it is blockbuster bomb... :x
I'll give it a try next time...
Blast radius in AH increase with weight. This baby is 4000 lbs so it starts with a huge radius. On top of that, it is a "HC" variant which increase the radius to 125% of the normal (reduce damage to 75% of 4000lbs, but who cares). Now remember that +25% from a lot is more than +25% from a little, to it makes the large blast radius into a huge radius. Area goes like the radius squared, so this little baby can cover a really large number of structures, field guns and ground vehicles in the blast area :)
Often, you catch so many structures in the blast that even though it does only about 3000 lbs of damage, you can land more than 6000 lbs of damage from this single bomb. Then you have the two 500 lbs on the wings to mop up with.
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Area goes like the radius squared, so this little baby can cover a really large number of structures, field guns and ground vehicles in the blast area :)
Hmmmm
I think next time I login to AH I'll take a single mossie with a cookie and start busting towns+its AAA defenders, return to rearm and once again & again & again...
I want to see how much damage/kills I can make :devil
I usually like Ardo for such missions but it is good pin-point targets not "areal-bombardment" and has poor climb rate...
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Drones are abused as F*** in AH since they cost nothing and K/D is not counted in bomber score.
But damage/death is.... but then, if someone is flying that way, he doesn't care for his score at all. ;)
To the OP wish... I think it would be pretty absurd to unperk a bomber that can haul 3x5000lbs @ 27k and about 380mph over long distances.
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Speed is life. The Mossi B Mk 16 is the most efficient bomber in the game, even more so than the Ar234.
Stop and think how much damage it can do in one pass (the 4k "cookies" provide a wide blast zone), how fast it can get there and return, and the risk of actually getting intercepted.
I think the perk cost is just about right.
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I'm with Lusche and SmokinLoon. The reward outweighs the risk.
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4 months ago i used the unarmed mosquito to bomb bish hq--i took the long way around.climbed to 25 to 30'000 ft. even went off map so not to be seen.but had to go thru 5 bish base radars' leveled their hq,made it back to base and landed.the 4 bish fighter's that upped couldn't catch me'they turned around and went home...with 4k bombs the unarmed mosquito is a great plane and should remain perked.give this plane it's dignaty. :joystick:
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A bit of hyperbole is going on here.
Point 1) No one stops buffs from flattening airfields and towns anyway. So unperking this plane will not change how often fields and towns are laid ruin.
Point 2) 12K of ords is less than one Lancaster.
Point 3) No one catches any 28K bombers.
Point 4) At 10K the MossieXVI will be caught by every Dora, Pony, 109-G14, 109-K4, Tempest, Typhoon, F4U-4, La7, Spit16, Spit14, Ta-152, YAK-3, Yak-9.
Perks are designed to limit plane use to some target level. What is the target usage of the Mossie16? This discussion should be usage based not performance based. Perk Cost is a tune-able parameter that needs constant tweaking. If usage is below target usage, than the perks should be lowered or even eliminated (like the Spit14). :salute
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A bit of hyperbole is going on here.
Point 3) No one catches any 28K bombers.
Hyperbole, indeed.
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Hey Snail,got any numbers on spit 14's used before perk and after?
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Unperk it. Fill the skies with more targets for me to intercept. :neener:
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Hey Snail,got any numbers on spit 14's used before perk and after?
Not by hours flown or sorties taken, but by the usual metric of (K+D ). By this, the Spitfire XIV went from ~ 0.30% to about 1.3% 'usage' (with a peak of ~1.7% right after it was unperked). (Expressed in rank: the 14 went from #55 in tour 156 to #29 in tour 167)
But this metric does not really works well for bombers, particularly for those which are very much trying to avoid any combat at all
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I don't know if I have even encountered a Mosquito MK.XVI in the MA for sure or not. I may have shot one down once when they first came into the game. :huh
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I don't know if I have even encountered a Mosquito MK.XVI in the MA for sure or not. I may have shot one down once when they first came into the game. :huh
You aren't flying high enough. I find them at 28K a lot. and they are spooled up and fast so if you are hanging out at 10k, your window of being able to spot them is quite small. I intercepted a set at 33k once in a 262 :)
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I don't know if I have even encountered a Mosquito MK.XVI in the MA for sure or not. I may have shot one down once when they first came into the game. :huh
I have killed 79 to date, but then I was a very atypical AH fighter pilot with my preference for high altitude bomber hunting. And of course I encountered many more, which I just was not always able to catch them. :old:
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A bit of hyperbole is going on here.
Point 1) No one stops buffs from flattening airfields and towns anyway. So unperking this plane will not change how often fields and towns are laid ruin.
The stoppability of bombers is mostly a function of time investment from the bomber pilot side. Mossie XVI significantly shortens the required time investment.
Point 2) 12K of ords is less than one Lancaster.
It is 15k of ord, but you get to do almost two trips for the same time - assuming the lancaster also RTB and does not bomb and bail.
Point 3) No one catches any 28K bombers.
In a field attack that is correct, not no in HQ raids. See #1, survivability is mostly a function of time investment. How many players climb to 28k to bomb a base?
Point 4) At 10K the MossieXVI will be caught by every Dora, Pony, 109-G14, 109-K4, Tempest, Typhoon, F4U-4, La7, Spit16, Spit14, Ta-152, YAK-3, Yak-9.
At 10K a 262 can be caught by those planes. This is a theoretical exercise. In practice, "how long" it takes to catch the mossie matters. Will a tempest and F4U-4 (perked rides), chase the XVI all the way to the deck at 500 mph into a gaggle of fighters happy to swarm on a perked ride? A single XVI free from its formation can maneuver and make it difficult for the planes above to get a shot - long enough for help to arrive. The XVI can turn just as good or better than half that list.
Perks are designed to limit plane use to some target level. What is the target usage of the Mossie16? This discussion should be usage based not performance based. Perk Cost is a tune-able parameter that needs constant tweaking. If usage is below target usage, than the perks should be lowered or even eliminated (like the Spit14). :salute
The actual perk price makes only little difference. It is 80% psychology and only 20% perk economy. The XVI will get almost the same use if it was perked 10, 20 or 30 perks. If on the other hand the perk tag is completely removed, the suicidal players will find a "good" use for it. These same players will not use it if it cost even 1 perk. For this reason "tuning" is difficult, it is more of an all or nothing deal. If the price is halved or doubled makes little difference to me as long as it is not removed.
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Hyperbole, indeed.
Not hyperbole at all. 28K and up is a very safe place for bombers. You should know. :salute
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Not hyperbole at all. 28K and up is a very safe place for bombers. You should know. :salute
Your statement was very straightforward: " No one catches any 28K bombers." And that IS hyperbole, as it is entirely untrue. While it is safer than lower alts for sure, it's not safe.
I have killed many, many hundreds of them at that altitude... in fact, the vast majority of my 233 B-29 kills had taken place at that altitude or even much higher. Many other players have done similar, including shooting down quite a number of my own buffs over the strats.
It's difficult, it's a challenge, but it's definitely doable.
However, the Mossie has much better cards than the other bombers, as the window of opportunity for the would-be interceptor to identify the threat and get into position for a successful intercept is so very small.
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tuton25,
I said I wasn't aware of much use by it at low level. I did not say I wasn't aware of any use by it at low level.
I.e., I know about that attack but so far as I know such use was rare. The famous precision anti-Gestapo raids were all Mk IVs and Mk VIs, You want a unperked, glass nosed Mossie, advocate for the Mk IV to be added.
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A Ta-152 with enough gas that is orbiting at altitude (28,000+ ft) can run down any bomber in this game. It's just a matter of time. In regards to the Mosquito Mk. XVI, their airframe can't even absorb one lonely tater in my experience. Furthermore, their lack of defensive armament really means I can just saddle up and wait for a beautiful shot, once the two drones have been handily dispatched.
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A Ta-152 with enough gas that is orbiting at altitude (28,000+ ft) can run down any bomber in this game. It's just a matter of time. In regards to the Mosquito Mk. XVI, their airframe can't even absorb one lonely tater in my experience. Furthermore, their lack of defensive armament really means I can just saddle up and wait for a beautiful shot, once the two drones have been handily dispatched.
5k more and you would be in icon range of Zoney
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Point 4) At 10K the MossieXVI will be caught by every Dora, Pony, 109-G14, 109-K4, Tempest, Typhoon, F4U-4, La7, Spit16, Spit14, Ta-152, YAK-3, Yak-9.
A Ta-152 with enough gas that is orbiting at altitude (28,000+ ft) can run down any bomber in this game. It's just a matter of time. In regards to the Mosquito Mk. XVI, their airframe can't even absorb one lonely tater in my experience. Furthermore, their lack of defensive armament really means I can just saddle up and wait for a beautiful shot, once the two drones have been handily dispatched.
I lost one Mossie XVI to a co-alt Bf109K-4 that had climbed and failed to intercept an earlier raid. It took him about 20 minutes to catch me even though he started less than 4000 yards from me after my bomb run. And he ran out of fuel a minute after getting me.
Great. So, getting very lucky to be in position he still almost failed to get me.
Just saying such and such fighter is faster is great and all, but it ignores the biggest challenge of intercepting a Mk XVI. You can't just pretend that you poof into existence and position in your faster fighter. Barring getting lucky as in my Bf109K-4's case or in jeffdn's example is just that, getting lucky. You can't rely on luck to be successful. You have to climb to intercept and that changes your "Look at all these faster fighters." example into something that not only doesn't favor the fighters, it massively favors the Mossie, just as it did in WWII. A Bf109K-4 taking off of a sea level airfield to intercept a Mossie XVI as it passes over the airfield at 28,000ft would be so far behind the Mossie by the time the K-4 reach 28,000ft that it would have to run on WEP for more than 45 minutes to catch up, an impossibility.
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i have chased bombers that were 30'000 ft before usally 4 to 5 sectors just to get shot down.usally because i'm bored
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Never ever check your high 6 if you are at 28k. You are completely safe up there. :devil
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i have chased bombers that were 30'000 ft before usally 4 to 5 sectors just to get shot down.usally because i'm bored
4-5 sectors won't catch a Mossie by any piston fighter in the game.
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A Bf109K-4 taking off of a sea level airfield to intercept a Mossie XVI as it passes over the airfield at 28,000ft would be so far behind the Mossie by the time the K-4 reach 28,000ft that it would have to run on WEP for more than 45 minutes to catch up, an impossibility.
Well, taking off for a 28k bomber from the base he's just flying over is bad idea in any case. Unfortunately, it's the modus operandi of many fighter pilots in the game. You could have seen that in the past with big raids to the central strats:
Even when the target was clear and obvious and the altitude of the bomber was well known, you still could see lots of fighters taking off from each base the mission just flew over and then trying to chase them down.
Taking off 4 sectors in front of them? Setting an intercept course instead of having the nose pointed at the mission all the time? Awaiting them over the target? No way. :bhead
I guess that's the same people who claim "28k buffs are impossible to catch :P
To get back to your example: A 109K using full WEP takes 8 minutes to get to 28k from sea level, covering about 26 miles. The mossie will have traveled about 40-50 miles in that time, so the 109 pilot would have to accelerate to (mil) top speed and then catch up with only 50-60 mph speed advantage
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Here are some speed differentials between some bombers and a 109K at 25k. Bomber speeds were determined by testing them in that particular configuration:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/speeddiff_zps2c134c8f.jpg)
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The stoppability of bombers is mostly a function of time investment from the bomber pilot side. Mossie XVI significantly shortens the required time investment.
Ok I'll buy that.
It is 15k of ord, but you get to do almost two trips for the same time - assuming the lancaster also RTB and does not bomb and bail.
It's not twice as fast. Lancs will do 270 at 12K. Mossies XVI will do 360.
In a field attack that is correct, not no in HQ raids. See #1, survivability is mostly a function of time investment. How many players climb to 28k to bomb a base?
For a strat attack you fly so far that all buffs will achieve whatever height they want. Not sure the speed difference really equates to higher alts in the stat case.
At 10K a 262 can be caught by those planes. This is a theoretical exercise. In practice, "how long" it takes to catch the mossie matters. Will a tempest and F4U-4 (perked rides), chase the XVI all the way to the deck at 500 mph into a gaggle of fighters happy to swarm on a perked ride? A single XVI free from its formation can maneuver and make it difficult for the planes above to get a shot - long enough for help to arrive. The XVI can turn just as good or better than half that list.
By caught, I don;t mean in a dive. If a Mossie is zooming in at 10k a 5K fighter(above mentioned) will be able to intercept and keep them from landing back home. And when you catch them they are easy pickings, unlike the deathstars that other buff formations are.
The actual perk price makes only little difference. It is 80% psychology and only 20% perk economy. The XVI will get almost the same use if it was perked 10, 20 or 30 perks. If on the other hand the perk tag is completely removed, the suicidal players will find a "good" use for it. These same players will not use it if it cost even 1 perk. For this reason "tuning" is difficult, it is more of an all or nothing deal. If the price is halved or doubled makes little difference to me as long as it is not removed.
I just don't see this plane as debalancing or having a game altering impact if it were free. Mossie is a trade off bomber. it's trading off time of persuit for zero defensive guns.
That seems resonable on it's own. I think the perks might be overkill. but if they had a trial period with no perks we'd see. ;)
As Lusche has shown the Spit14 did not become an arena monster when unperked. Because it has major deficiencies to offset its assets. I think the OP is saying the Mossie has minuses to offset it's plusses. :salute
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It's not twice as fast. Lancs will do 270 at 12K. Mossies XVI will do 360.
Factor in climbing time.
I think the OP is saying the Mossie has minuses to offset it's plusses. :salute
He is saying that, but he is wrong.
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You have to climb to intercept and that changes your "Look at all these faster fighters." example into something that not only doesn't favor the fighters, it massively favors the Mossie, just as it did in WWII. A Bf109K-4 taking off of a sea level airfield to intercept a Mossie XVI as it passes over the airfield at 28,000ft would be so far behind the Mossie by the time the K-4 reach 28,000ft that it would have to run on WEP for more than 45 minutes to catch up, an impossibility.
There are a few people on each country that hunt for bombers. We read the dar bars and position ourselves in places where bombers will likely be transiting. It's a pretty accurate science, Only very, very rarely do I end a sortie without having encountered and tangled with at least one set of bombers. Mossies are faster, but they have no teeth. At the end of the day, they are one of the easiest targets in the game for buff hunters.
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There are a few people on each country that hunt for bombers. We read the dar bars and position ourselves in places where bombers will likely be transiting. It's a pretty accurate science, Only very, very rarely do I end a sortie without having encountered and tangled with at least one set of bombers. Mossies are faster, but they have no teeth. At the end of the day, they are one of the easiest targets in the game for buff hunters.
As the Mossie pilot I look for signs of enemy activity and adjust my course to avoid them. I have never been caught when doing so. The three I have lost have been due to bad luck of running into a Bf109K-4 at my altitude who stated he was only up there to intercept an earlier raid that he had missed, an Me163 because the strats were so close to the HQ and a Ta152 when I hit the strats knowing the enemy was there and waiting for me. A smart, aware Mossie pilot is hard to catch.
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Seems to me on any perk ride the question is how effective is the perk value on the control of the planes usage?
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I don't see why you would use a Mossie XVI since it can't shoot back (in large NOE raids)....
Why wouldn't you take a fast, well defended bomber like a B-26 and take almost twice the bombload???
If it was unperked it would see about as much use as the Boston 3....
Because the purpose of an NOE raid is to capture the base with minimal resistance. The lancaster (the current most common NOE bomber due to a combination of its relatively high speed of ~250mph at sea level and 14k bomb load, compared to the ~260 of the B-26, with 4k of bombs and far more defensive firepower, or the B-17 with its 225mph, and 6k of bombs, and the second best defense of any bomber in the game) is already slaughtered whenever an NOE raid gets detected, and it can shoot back about as well as a B-26 can from the rear.
Additionally, the Mossie 16 can even outrun some of the more common NOE fighters in a heavy configuration, such as the 110, and N1K2, and 190A-8. But it can also keep up with any fighter MUCH better, and will significantly decrease the amount of warning that defenders have, and the time they have to up fighters.
Second, I do take the B-26 when I'm out to bomb a target I know is already defended. But the Mossie 16 is several orders of magnitude better in the role of a penetration bomber. Second, the Mossie 16 can carry a heavier bomb load than the B-26.
Third, it would 100% supplant usage of the Boston III (with the exception of perk farming), as it is far faster than the Boston, about as likely to shoot something down in a dogfight, and carries a heavier bombload (max of 2.5x what the Boston can carry).
Dude, for the purpose of town busting from medium altitudes the XVI mossie with without peers. That supersized beer keg it carriers in the bay was not called the block buster for nothing. Players have no clue how to use this plane. For tactical bombing leave the drones at home and come with a single plane. It is FAR more survivable in a fighter environment than any Lanc formation, will climb to 10k AGL in just over 3 minutes and will RTB at 400+ mph (shallow dive) to make another run, while the lanc formation is still trying to make a 15miles radius turn towards the target.
Two (singles) of these babies can flatten a town by themselves. My record is 23 structures and field guns destroyed by one(!) cookie. The system messages overflowed the (expanded) text buffer and I had to scroll back in order to count the messages :) Satisfaction cannot describe it. On that sortie I dropped from 12k through a fighters CAP, threw off a high P-51 that jumped me immediately after the drop and made it home without a scratch.
Defensive guns are just a distraction from the main mission.
Given that its also a perk bomber, I'm factoring in survival as part of "effectivness". At simply doing the job of getting ordnance onto target, its easily the second best bomber in the game, with only the Ar 234 even in the same category.
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Seems to me on any perk ride the question is how effective is the perk value on the control of the planes usage?
Depends a lot on circumstances - how much the plane would dominate it's particular niche and the actual magnitude of the perk price. Going from 0 to a slight perk cost has, in my experience, a more drastic effect on usage than going from 50 to 100 perks. Examples: The M4(76) was starting to dominate the AH battlefield after introduction. Putting a slight perk on it (2 or 5 at that time) did cut the numbers down significantly. On the other hand, going from 50 to 100 perks did not impact the Me 163 usage much at all.
Another histoprical example (actually the one which did introduce the perk system), the F4U-C, which had it's usage cut down to about 10% of it's original value.
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I don't really understand why it's so important to OP to have this plane un-perked. It survives 99% of the time anyway so why worry about the cost? Unless you just want a new super-fast bomb and bail ride.
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I don't really understand why it's so important to OP to have this plane un-perked. It survives 99% of the time anyway so why worry about the cost? Unless you just want a new super-fast bomb and bail ride.
He wants to use it in ways that it is unlikely to survive and the perk price is a barrier towards that kind of use.
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On a related note: In the age of central strats I was using the three perk bombers, Arado 234, B-29 and Mossie XVI extensively to bomb the City/factories.
The Mossie was the only perk bomber fully sustaining it's perk costs on its own, i.e. I was gaining more perks from those missions that I was losing in them. In the 234 and 29 I suffered a considerable net loss of perks by combat losses (more than 3500 in the B-29)
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Your statement was very straightforward: " No one catches any 28K bombers." And that IS hyperbole, as it is entirely untrue. While it is safer than lower alts for sure, it's not safe.
I have killed many, many hundreds of them at that altitude... in fact, the vast majority of my 233 B-29 kills had taken place at that altitude or even much higher. Many other players have done similar, including shooting down quite a number of my own buffs over the strats.
It's difficult, it's a challenge, but it's definitely doable.
However, the Mossie has much better cards than the other bombers, as the window of opportunity for the would-be interceptor to identify the threat and get into position for a successful intercept is so very small.
Your being pedantic. Stop it. I didn't mean that a 28K bomber is never shot down. Ghost stated that 25K Mossies will be untouchable, as if that will be a paradyme shift in bomber ops. My point was most fighters won't attempt to go after buffs that are 25K if they are at fighter sweep alt [0-10] So if you are defending a base and high buffs show up, they're safe up there whether they are Mossies or not. Ever try to catch Havermyr in his Ki-67s at 30K? You'd better bring all your patience and a lot of gas.
Waiting in advance of Buffs ends this problem as you described, so again you aren't safe in a Mossie from a 28K fighter on station waiting for you. So either way, a Mossie doesn't change much except for Bozons point about the speed making it easier for mossies to get to those alts in less time, so more of them will be up there than say B-17s. :salute
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Your being pedantic. Stop it. I didn't mean that a 28K bomber is never shot down.
I would not have been that pedantic if you had not told others they being hypocritical and then being even more hypocritical yourself. The good old pot meets kettle.
So if you are defending a base and high buffs show up, they're safe up there whether they are Mossies or not.
It's not that simple. As already explained in this thread, the time window is much smaller when a mossie comes in. There is much less time to identify the raider and get up and into position. That makes a huge difference.
Ever try to catch Havermyr in his Ki-67s at 30K?
Yes, a lot of times. Much easier than catching Mossies, because you can even catch him when he's still above you. It's a very much different thing with the mossie, because if you are not already in position, you have a big problem
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I would not have been that pedantic if you had not told others they being hypocritical and then being even more hypocritical yourself. The good old pot meets kettle.
But I wasn't. I was adressing his point clearly. You chose to read it in a way that I didn't mean it, even though my meaning was clear.
Vinkman=not hypocritical.
Snailman=pedantic. :neener:
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I think the fear of abuse by NOE is a dead duck..........Tu2s is far better for NOE suicide raids............ by some 1600lbs per ac
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25 to 28 K, with a full bomb load, how fast will this Bomber go at full speed? Disregard, we have a performance chart. At its sweet spot is cruises at about 390 mph. Thats purty bloody fast for a Bomber and it sounds like 20 perks is about right. Its a good ord raider but now that we have the TU I doubt I'll ever even use it again. But its a great addition to the set I think. It just shouldnt be unperked.
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25 to 28 K, with a full bomb load, how fast will this Bomber go at full speed? Disregard, we have a performance chart. At its sweet spot is cruises at about 390 mph. Thats purty bloody fast for a Bomber and it sounds like 20 perks is about right. Its a good ord raider but now that we have the TU I doubt I'll ever even use it again. But its a great addition to the set I think. It just shouldnt be unperked.
Is that empty weight or fully loaded?
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25 to 28 K, with a full bomb load, how fast will this Bomber go at full speed? Disregard, we have a performance chart. At its sweet spot is cruises at about 390 mph. Thats purty bloody fast for a Bomber and it sounds like 20 perks is about right. Its a good ord raider but now that we have the TU I doubt I'll ever even use it again. But its a great addition to the set I think. It just shouldnt be unperked.
A Mossie 16 with 4k of bombs and 50% fuel will cruise 385mph at 25k and 380 at 30k
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Waiting in advance of Buffs ends this problem as you described, so again you aren't safe in a Mossie from a 28K fighter on station waiting for you.
Depends on the fighter now, doesn't it? An F4U-1A cannot catch a Mossie XVI or Ar234 at 28,000ft, but it can catch any other bomber, even the B-29A. There are almost no fighters, perhaps none at all, that a Ki-67 will outrun at 30,000ft. The window to intercept is also much smaller for the Mossie than any other piston engined bomber. Being at 28,000ft still doesn't mean your intercept is a sure thing.
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I recall doing a fun NOE (across difficult terrain) in the Mosquito MK.XVI with a few squaddies to hit the HQ, will have to find the film. What's funny was a lone 262 came out just as we were climbing to run away, he chased me down for 4 sectors before he finally got me. But it was my fault, first time in the plane, made a mistake. Still had fun though :D
Not really sure why I mentioned that, but I'm sure it relates somehow :headscratch:
I see where you are coming from Tuton. You don't think the perk cost is justified based on the use of this aircraft and based on the limited bombload and the fact it is un-armed. The problem is though, I don't think the reason why HTC perked the Mk.KVI was because of the bombload, but because of the speed of the craft at 'bomber altitudes (20k+). I don't want to see Mk.XVI's bombing CVs like we see water-sucking lancs and b26s do now.
While I do agree that it may not see much usage in the MA (at least compared to some of the other bombers, (like the B26s/B17s), and that it is unarmed, I think that it would be a serious error to allow this aircraft to be un-perked due to it's capabilities. The perk price is a deterrent from simply charging into a fight with no care for your planes well-being. If you take that away I think you may be surprised at how quickly these things will start appearing. Even without guns. Those who have NO care for their planes' lives, don't shoot back at me. Just look at bomb-n-bailers or those who charge CVs with B25s (hehe), B26s or Lancs.
I think the most I would be willing to accept would be is a lowering of perk cost, but right now it's low as it is. 20 to 60 perks for a really fast bomber.
On a side-note, I wonder if HTC could implement a testing system, where if a wish like this comes up HTC would unperk certain rides that were requested (that are potentially debatable, I'm not saying unperk the 262 or 163 here). And find out (like with the Spit14) if unperking the ride is really necessary. (Will it increase usage? Was the perk price too much, Too little? etc.) Then POST the tests here on the BBS and somewhere on the front page (under a link or something or a new tab) showing the results. So if it comes up again "we already tested that, and these are the results".
-1 to the OP, but I do understand where you are coming from.
:salute
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There are almost no fighters, perhaps none at all, that a Ki-67 will outrun at 30,000ft.
It takes a (coalt) 109K at mil power almost three times as long to catch up with a Mossie at 30k than with a Ki-67, while the Mossie covers 40% more distance than the Ki.
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Depends on the fighter now, doesn't it? An F4U-1A cannot catch a Mossie XVI or Ar234 at 28,000ft, but it can catch any other bomber, even the B-29A. There are almost no fighters, perhaps none at all, that a Ki-67 will outrun at 30,000ft. The window to intercept is also much smaller for the Mossie than any other piston engined bomber. Being at 28,000ft still doesn't mean your intercept is a sure thing.
Thanks capt obvious. this was all on P 1 of this thread. :salute
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It takes a (coalt) 109K at mil power almost three times as long to catch up with a Mossie at 30k than with a Ki-67, while the Mossie covers 40% more distance than the Ki.
I dissagree. you have to climb over the Ki-67 beacuse he will shoot you. Climbing over him takes forever at that alt. you can climb right up behind a mossie because he is helpless, and there is no need to make high speed passes that cause you to have to re-aquire and reclimb, and reposition, etc,... :salute
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I have only died in a Mossie 16 by hitting a tree at the edge of a runway after re-arming and not paying attention close enough.
Mossie 16 is uber
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I dissagree. you have to climb over the Ki-67 beacuse he will shoot you. Climbing over him takes forever at that alt.
Against that plane at that altitude: Wrong tactic... unless you are in a 163.
;)
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Against that plane at that altitude: Wrong tactic... unless you are in a 163.
;)
That 20mm in the back can be killer if you are creeping up from behind. If not over the top attack, what do you suggest?
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PLEASE: Leave the perk on the Mossie 16 just as it is.
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That 20mm in the back can be killer if you are creeping up from behind. If not over the top attack, what do you suggest?
Belly. Tail guns and waist guns don't traverse down very well. Direct six also keeps you out of the 20mm if the Ki-67 driver doesn't change heading.
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That 20mm in the back can be killer if you are creeping up from behind.
Not if you stay below. The 20mm is in the top turret and can't depress below level.
At lower altitudes I do indeed the standard 1-2 oclock high attack. At 30k however, this could indeed take too much time to setup, and there's a much bigger danger of getting into the top turrets field of fire at that altitude as your maneuverability is significantly decrease. And with the Ki the #1 rule is... avoid the top turret!
So if I don't have the time to setup up a high frontal attack (assuming not flying a Komet), I stay below and several hundred feet to one side, speeding up then doing a low 2-4 oclock shallow zoom attack. If done correctly, only the side mounted single 12.7mm can shoot at you. And unlike most US buffs, the Ki gunner has to be somewhat cautious at spending his ammo, he hasn't exactly much of it.
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There are ways to get the top turret into play even when the enemy thinks its safe. You can roll the bomber, do a auto speed as the fighter is doing the belly crawl. I like hitting the auto speed button AND rolling the Bomber while sitting in the rear dual 0.50 position. OK even if you avoid the 20mm's chances are you'll be looking at a P47s worth of 0.50s. This is just a dangerous Bomber to attack and the only safe way is to come down on top of it the way Lusche has mastered. And very few are left that can do it like that.
And it takes time to set it up cause the 67 is fast and a smart pilot will alter course, speeds and mess with you. I think Ill fly the 67 tonight just cause were talking about it. Its a great raider bomber.
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Not if you stay below. The 20mm is in the top turret and can't depress below level.
At lower altitudes I do indeed the standard 1-2 oclock high attack. At 30k however, this could indeed take too much time to setup, and there's a much bigger danger of getting into the top turrets field of fire at that altitude as your maneuverability is significantly decrease. And with the Ki the #1 rule is... avoid the top turret!
So if I don't have the time to setup up a high frontal attack (assuming not flying a Komet), I stay below and several hundred feet to one side, speeding up then doing a low 2-4 oclock shallow zoom attack. If done correctly, only the side mounted single 12.7mm can shoot at you. And unlike most US buffs, the Ki gunner has to be somewhat cautious at spending his ammo, he hasn't exactly much of it.
Ah thanks Lusche. All this time I've benn afraid of the tail 20mm. Nice to know there isn't one. :aok
Also i find when trying to run them down that Havermyr can get those things to climb over 36K. So even if he starts at 25K the minute he sees you he starts climbing. Very tough to get up there even in a K4. I've seen him take B-17s up there in a similar fashion. He also employs all the tricks that Rich46yo explains above.
Pure death trying to attack 36K B-17s. For me anyway. :cry
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Its the G4M Betty that has the 20mm tail turret. However the damn thing catches fire if you glare at it, so....
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Also i find when trying to run them down that Havermyr can get those things to climb over 36K. So even if he starts at 25K the minute he sees you he starts climbing. Very tough to get up there even in a K4. I've seen him take B-17s up there in a similar fashion. He also employs all the tricks that Rich46yo explains above.
He really makes you work for your kills, that's for sure. :aok
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4-5 sectors won't catch a Mossie by any piston fighter in the game.
never said i chased mossie's 30'000 feet..i said i chased bombers--lanc's--b-26's b-25's b-24's--never b29-s at all..cept 1 time i did.but they were already 30'000 ft.and could not catch them..i was in a 190-a8
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never said i chased mossie's 30'000 feet..i said i chased bombers--lanc's--b-26's b-25's b-24's--never b29-s at all..cept 1 time i did.but they were already 30'000 ft.and could not catch them..i was in a 190-a8
Anybody who gets Lancs to 30,000ft has way too much time on their hands. :p
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Anybody who gets Lancs to 30,000ft has way too much time on their hands. :p
Actually with bombs still onboard he would be performing a miracle...
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/lancey_zpsc64ef7ba.jpg)
:noid
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Actually with bombs still onboard he would be performing a miracle...
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/lancey_zpsc64ef7ba.jpg)
:noid
Imagine a Lancaster with the same Merlins as the Mosquito Mk XVI has.....
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Bump to show tuton25's absurdity.
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Bump to show tuton25's absurdity.
Please open this link in another tab to fully embrace the absurdity of this thread... or should I say threads...
http://www.hurr-durr.com/ (http://www.hurr-durr.com/)
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Please open this link in another tab to fully embrace the absurdity of this thread... or should I say threads...
http://www.hurr-durr.com/ (http://www.hurr-durr.com/)
Do not click the link :old:
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Do not click the link :old:
Most cannot handle it! :old:
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wt actual f :confused: