Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: icepac on February 14, 2014, 07:30:45 PM
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That's 3 guns and 450 total rounds vs 2 guns and 400 total rounds yet the weight difference is only 5 pounds.
Strange things are afoot at the circle K.
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That's 3 guns and 450 total rounds vs 2 guns and 400 total rounds yet the weight difference is only 5 pounds.
Strange things are afoot at the circle K.
It's been that way for awhile now.
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Should be 2x20mm ShVAK cannon w/ 200 rds each or 3x20mm Berezin B-20 cannon and 100 rds each.
Edit: The B-20 weighs 55 lbs versus 80 lbs for the ShVAK.
Would be nice if we could represent both gun packages through sounds. Right now it's one or the other I believe.
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Isn't most of the weight in the ammo?
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400 rounds of 20mm would be around 100 lbs with belts/links.
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Isn't most of the weight in the ammo?
Yes, so take the weight of the EXTRA ammunition it is carrying and it would be lighter with the extra gun. So right now the 3-gun La-7 is too heavy, unless there is extra weight added in mounting, ammunition trays or whatever (wouldn't think it would be that much).
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So the 3 guns themselves weigh 5 pounds more than the 2 guns.
In game, the 3 gun loadout carries 450 rounds while the two gun loadout carries 400 rounds.
Sure, not a huge difference, but more than 5 pounds and every source I can find (none agree on how many bullets) has from 120 to 160 pounds more weight for the 3 gun plane.
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Gordon Yefim writes more about Soviet air power than any other author I know of. That's where the 100 rds/gun figure comes from. 100 does not sound like a lot of ammunition, but I do not think you can discount his information based on that.
Yefim, G. (2008). Soviet air power in world war 2. Hinckley, UK: Midland.
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So basically pilots themselves differed in weight more than the two types of LA-7s did in real life.
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with have many things that go huh...
according to AH plane performance 190a8 and 190f8 have exact the same speed both Mil and Wep, also the 500kg heavier F8 climb with the A8
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Still prefer the longer firing time of the 2 gun package.
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Still prefer the longer firing time of the 2 gun package.
You actually live long enough to empty the clip? :devil
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The three gun package carried upto 150 rpg. (Indeed it was designed to carry 170 rpg). This was not always carried but variations seem to have been from 125 to the maximum 150.
The net weight of 3 x B20's was actually lighter than 2 x Shvaks. 75kg to 84kg. So three B20's were some 9kg ( equivalent to approx 90 rounds) lighter than two Shvaks.
Sources
Lavochkin La7 - Milos Vestik
Rapid Fire - A.G.Williams
Flying Guns WWII - A.G. Williams & Dr E. Gustin
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with have many things that go huh...
according to AH plane performance 190a8 and 190f8 have exact the same speed both Mil and Wep, also the 500kg heavier F8 climb with the A8
Have you checked that the weight difference is that big in game?
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Still prefer the longer firing time of the 2 gun package.
The much better ballistics and 50% greater hitting power of the 3-gun B-20 package more than make up for 50 fewer rounds per gun with the shVAKs. The only reason to prefer the 2-gun package is for the challenge.
That being said, I prefer the La-5FN and it's 2 shVAKs. They can do the job just fine. :aok
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The ballistics are identical at 750-770 m/s. Both guns even use the same ammo.
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The ballistics are identical at 750-770 m/s. Both guns even use the same ammo.
Really? I thought I had read they used different cartridges. Just did a bit of reading and it appears you are correct, I was mistaken. :salute
Still, 50% greater hitting power, just aim a bit better and you can use a shorter burst. ;)
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Yup... It's definitively a better gun package. However, in real life the B-20 had reliability problems and a very short barrel life, but that doesn't affect us in AH. ;)
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Yup... It's definitively a better gun package. However, in real life the B-20 had reliability problems and a very short barrel life, but that doesn't affect us in AH. ;)
B20 barrel in the La7 was the same as the Shvaks. One of my references suggest it was used with various barrel lengths for various roles.
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If the 3*B20 was so much better than 2*Shvaks, why then only a tiny fractions of the La7s had 3 guns?
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If the 3*B20 was so much better than 2*Shvaks, why then only a tiny fractions of the La7s had 3 guns?
Because B-20 wasn't production ready at the time when La-7 production started. First Berezin powered La-7 were produced only in January 1945...
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The unfired bullets weigh 183 grams or .4 pound each.
The 3 gun plane has 50 more rounds than the 2 gun plane.
20 more pounds.
I also feel that not all the gun firing mechanisms and other necessary peripherals of 3 guns vs 2 is being accounted for.
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The unfired bullets weigh 183 grams or .4 pound each.
The 3 gun plane has 50 more rounds than the 2 gun plane.
20 more pounds.
I also feel that not all the gun firing mechanisms and other necessary peripherals of 3 guns vs 2 is being accounted for.
So, what, maybe 50lbs more for the three 20mm cannon version? Now, it should be corrected, but if somebody thinks that would have changed the outcome of their loss to an La-7, or change the gun choice for La-& drivers, they are in a fantasy world.
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Because B-20 wasn't production ready at the time when La-7 production started. First Berezin powered La-7 were produced only in January 1945...
From January 1945 till wars end was more than half if the wartime La-7 production. Less than 400 La7s were delivered before that and the total by war's end was about 2000. If I recall correctly, less than 300 had the B20s, but maybe I am wrong about that number. Perhaps they suffered from a shortage of B20 cannons?
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2 guns package 400 rounds LA7 full fuel 7385 lbs
7178 lbs with no ammo
207 lbs ammo
0.5175 g per round
3 guns package 450 rounds LA7 full fuel 7390 lbs
7157 lbs with no ammo
233lbs ammo
0.5177 g per round
Does the LA 7 not eject spent cartridges? :headscratch:
approx 0.51 lbs per shell??
Doesn't seem that much to haggle over 5lbs, suppose you could ask HT for the specs used in weight but I have a feeling they will add up anyway.
Where did you get the 183g figure from? The only place I could find that figure on google was a post on this bbs a long time ago...
183 grams per round! ;)
Matt
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The difference in the plane in game is 5 pounds but it's a bit more than that in real life.
Sure, 30 pounds doesn't make much a difference but it is 30 pounds.
Projectile weights here.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
No, I did not get killed by a LA7 but rather noticed it flying my second ever la7 sortie in the hangar.
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So a 3 gun la7 could be lighter or heavier than a 2 gun la7 depending on the weight of the pilots.
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Yeah......a LA7 with you in it would likely weigh considerably more than a LA7 with me in it but the 3 gun plane by itself would weigh at least 30 pounds more than the two gun plane.
30 pounds is more than 5 pounds.
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Is it your contention that 30lbs would be a perceptible difference?
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As an LA7 dweeb I couldn't possibly care less which way this one goes. 30 pounds is around 5 gallons of gas, which the LA eats up in no time, and is completely negligible to performance.
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Also how do you figure 30lbs? 50 rounds of ammo weighs 26lbs and the two gun package is heavier than the three gun package.
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The much better ballistics and 50% greater hitting power of the 3-gun B-20 package more than make up for 50 fewer rounds per gun with the shVAKs. The only reason to prefer the 2-gun package is for the challenge.
That being said, I prefer the La-5FN and it's 2 shVAKs. They can do the job just fine. :aok
La5 is a good perk farmer
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Also how do you figure 30lbs? 50 rounds of ammo weighs 26lbs and the two gun package is heavier than the three gun package.
Then it's 31 pounds heavier since the 3 gun package weighs at least 5 pounds more than the two gun package.
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No its lighter shvak is 88lbs berzin is 55.