Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Chalenge on February 16, 2014, 04:23:54 PM
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Found this video (no sound) on youtube. I don't see any guns mounted on this plane though?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G2N4HGJus4
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I see he didnt have enough perks for drones. ;) Must be a specific model that had the guns?
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I see he didnt have enough perks for drones. ;) Must be a specific model that had the guns?
No, they were originally planned to have guns, but no operational Ar234 carried them.
Hopefully they are removed when the Ar234 is updated.
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No, they were originally planned to have guns, but no operational Ar234 carried them.
Hopefully they are removed when the Ar234 is updated.
I don't believe that's been established but it seems likely that many or most did not have the guns mounted.
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A horse can be led to water but it can't be forced to drink the water.
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I don't believe that's been established but it seems likely that many or most did not have the guns mounted.
I believe you are ignoring the pilot that actually flew the Arado that also stated none of them ever had guns. I would think that carries more weight than anything you can research through the Internet.
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I believe you are ignoring the pilot that actually flew the Arado that also stated none of them ever had guns. I would think that carries more weight than anything you can research through the Internet.
I'm not ignoring the ferry pilot or any other evidence that has been posted.
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Proving a negative is impossible, so naturally the burden of proof lies with proving they had guns operationally.
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Proving a negative is impossible, so naturally the burden of proof lies with proving they had guns operationally.
The burden of proof lies with the person requesting a change in Aces High.
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Well, I don't recall anyone ever talking about ferry pilots until FLS brought it up.
Lyric has done quite a bit of research on this aircraft including contacting the only living Luftwaffe pilot that actually flew it in the war (I believe that's the case). So far the consensus is that the aircraft never had guns (the B model) and since it is the only aircraft to have been flown in combat there was never a combat aircraft that had guns. Therefore the guns, as far as I care, should be removed when the aircraft is updated. It should be a very fast jet-powered mosquito type, but not armed with guns.
I listened to the US pilot that flew the airplane in the states and his comments indicate that the airplane is wonderful to fly, as is the HTC version. I have no issues with the way it is modeled, except I think the guns are fantasy items and should be removed.
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The burden of proof lies with the person requesting a change in Aces High.
This is a clear case of evidence of absence. Some people have done significant research into the 234 and not found evidence of guns in operational use. That in itself is "evidence of absence". While a negative can never be proven all the evidence suggests it and no evidence contradicts it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
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Ive never once used the guns in that thing and never once been shot down in it.
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Ive never once used the guns in that thing and never once been shot down in it.
I actually did and I find them good addition, I scared the hell of the Me-163 that tried to hunt my Ardo, made him break the attack twice and than RTB.
So maybe they aren't effective but they can help in really bad situations especially when the only way to actually intercept it is from dead 6. Even 262s straggle to catch it.
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No, they were originally planned to have guns, but no operational Ar234 carried them.
Hopefully they are removed when the Ar234 is updated.
I belive Erich Sommer had forward firing gunpods installed on his arado. No info about the rear guns though.
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Only on experimental night-fighters.
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Theres a $20 reward to the Military related charity of the killers choice should anyone ever shoot me down in a 234. Did a run last night and took out a Nit GV hangar that was plauging us.
I have a list of sneaky, stealthy tricks. The most important being running like Hell. :D
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:aok
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Only on experimental night-fighters.
There is a one off situation other than the night fighter squadron.
As Karnak had mentioned Erich K. Sommer used one.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b-2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b-2.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b2-1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b2-1.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b1-2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b1-2.jpg.html)
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Ive never once used the guns in that thing and never once been shot down in it.
You should talk to NKL. :lol
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There is a one off situation other than the night fighter squadron.
As Karnak had mentioned Erich K. Sommer used one.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b-2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b-2.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b2-1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b2-1.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b1-2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b1-2.jpg.html)
Cool! :aok
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This is a clear case of evidence of absence. Some people have done significant research into the 234 and not found evidence of guns in operational use. That in itself is "evidence of absence". While a negative can never be proven all the evidence suggests it and no evidence contradicts it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
In this case there are contradictory statements from reputable people like Capt Eric Brown who investigated and flew the Arados surviving the war. Lyric presented a good case for most Arados not having guns.
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So maybe they aren't effective but they can help in really bad situations especially when the only way to actually intercept it is from dead 6. Even 262s straggle to catch it.
They are very effective...I used to take them up frequently without bombs and just lure people in and kill them...good times.
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Found this video (no sound) on youtube. I don't see any guns mounted on this plane though?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G2N4HGJus4
I have seen this video before on Youtube but not with this clarity & resolution. The first aircraft in the video is the very first AR-234 with landing gear it was V9. Later it was given the PH+SQ designation markings. What is interesting about this aircraft it is probably the most filmed & photographed of all the AR-234's made by the Germans during WWII.
Yet when you read books from an earlier era they get the facts wrong about this very aircraft.
For example from the very same book & only 1 page apart from each other the book totally contradicts it self.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Arado%20AR-234/img262_zps00c3f5f5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Arado%20AR-234/img262_zps00c3f5f5.jpg.html)
One page over.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Arado%20AR-234/img263_zpsa0d22bb6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Arado%20AR-234/img263_zpsa0d22bb6.jpg.html)
:headscratch: Well what happened they sent it to another facility to get a periscope rear guns bomb racks & so on & so on.
Yet the video evidence & photos don't support this fact.
Why you may ask?
Well the fact is this aircraft per the later books say PH+SQ never was fitted with a periscope & a few other things that I have talked about before.
The authors of earlier written books just quoted other sources with out verifying the facts as this example above shows. Some of the very same authors who wrote extensively about the AR-234B who wrote later editions of the same book changed their own findings.
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The guns never made it into operational Ar 234B - they are in the Baubeschreibung of 1943 and early 44 but no mention of it in manuals of summer 44 and late 44, not even as planned or optional equipment.
Thus these guns are a myth in the B-version.
The game devs actually fail to acknowledge their error to include these guns.
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The guns never made it into operational Ar 234B - they are in the Baubeschreibung of 1943 and early 44 but no mention of it in manuals of summer 44 and late 44, not even as planned or optional equipment.
Thus these guns are a myth in the B-version.
The game devs actually fail to acknowledge their error to include these guns.
They weren't on the Ar234 in the initial release of it in AH, but some time later, years I seem to recall, somebody convinced them that they should be there and they were added. Lyric has been trying to get that reversed.
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AR's counted for 0.07% of the kills last month. Is there any real reason to remove them?
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AR's counted for 0.07% of the kills last month. Is there any real reason to remove them?
Ar234s? no.
The guns on them? Absolutely yes. Why? Because the real one didn't have them.
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I think it would be even better to remodel the aircraft with forward facing guns. Then you could have jet-vs-jet combat even without the Meteor. And it actually flew that way during the war, so there wouldn't be any basis to complain about it.
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Ar234s? no.
The guns on them? Absolutely yes. Why? Because the real one didn't have them.
There seems to be a debate about that..
ON EDIT: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.0.html) 16 pages of AR love... look like they had guns (though not often)
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No, the evidence has been tainted by two authors that retracted their evidence, but it was too late. Everyone writing about the Arado had already run off with the guns idea and its been epidemic ever since. It's urban legend now.
And Erin Brown never said there were guns on an Arado.
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And Erin Brown never said there were guns on an Arado.
Can't argue with that. :D
Capt Eric Brown, Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price, all have books stating that some Arados had guns mounted.
No, the evidence has been tainted by two authors that retracted their evidence, but it was too late. Everyone writing about the Arado had already run off with the guns idea and its been epidemic ever since. It's urban legend now.
The authors you mentioned never offered and retracted evidence of guns, they retracted a statement they couldn't verify 50 years after the war.
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Can't argue with that. :D
Capt Eric Brown, Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price, all have books stating that some Arados had guns mounted.
Yes, the 4 engined versions.
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Can't argue with that. :D
Capt Eric Brown, Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price, all have books stating that some Arados had guns mounted.
The authors you mentioned never offered and retracted evidence of guns, they retracted a statement they couldn't verify 50 years after the war.
Nope. You're wrong. Purely urban myth. The only way to establish the guns were ever used is to find photographic evidence, or field orders. All of the authors you listed referenced the same book as evidence, and those authors retracted their claim. The Arado simply never had rear guns.
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Nope. You're wrong. Purely urban myth. The only way to establish the guns were ever used is to find photographic evidence, or field orders. All of the authors you listed referenced the same book as evidence, and those authors retracted their claim. The Arado simply never had rear guns.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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I think you have that reversed. You are simply refusing to accept that this airplane is a fantasy in Aces High, and that it never was equipped with cannon in real life. All of the facts point to that as fact, but it's you that will not accept it. Sorry, but you're wrong.
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You are making up "facts" to support your position. :lol
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I want the Me109K-4 to have MG151/20 20mm cowl guns and a Mk103 30mm engine cannon. Many books say it did.
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You are making up "facts" to support your position. :lol
All you have is misprints and lies perpetuated over the years. Instead of posting a single sentence from a single book, post the orders for the aircraft or one single picture with the cannons in place for a single combat mission.
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IMHO this is much ado about nothing...
Getting all :O about a infrequently used aircraft with an option possibly not available that is used in a miniscule amount of kills just seems to be a bit over the top...
Put it in the wishlist, and :airplane:
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Again, where's the fact production Ar 234B used these guns?
The RLM aircraft manual released 12/44 neither contains a part 8A (gun/cannon armament) nor does it mention them as Rüstsatz (optional equipment) nor has it load plans with these guns.
The Arado manual from 6/44 does not mention them either, the Exerzierkarte from 10/44 mentions only bombs as armament
Optional equipment listed in both manuals is recon cam, bomb aiming device (Lotfe), autopilot and aux fuel installation
We all know the guns were planned for the Ar 234A/B but did not made it into production, it was again planned for the Ar 234C and may have been used there.
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it was again planned for the Ar 234C and may have been used there.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b4.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234b3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234b3.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234info10-1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/ar234info10-1.jpg.html)
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I was clearing out my storage unit and I came across a book called "Hitler's Luftwaffe". Half of the book is a history of sorts by campaign and year range. The other half is pictures and detail of various WWII planes in the Luftwaffe. It's a coffee table book with lots of cool pictures written in the 70's and was written by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston.
I turned to the AR234 page and sure enough there is a cut away drawing of the 234 complete with rear facing MG151/20 cannons.
I know it's not the beat all end all of this situation, but I find it kind of odd someone drew them in if they weren't actually there....
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I know it's not the beat all end all of this situation, but I find it kind of odd someone drew them in if they weren't actually there....
It's a very old book, and old books often carry outdated information that has been corrected by research since then.
I think I have the very same book, and it also states the MK 103 and two cowl MG 151/20 as armament for the Bf 109K-4. This is just another myth that had been repeated over many years, especially in encyclopedic compilations like this one, which do not contain much primary research but are to a large extend just carrying over their data from even older literature.
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Is this the drawing?
(http://references.charlyecho.com/Aviation/Arado/Ar-234B-2/Cutaway/aradoat234b2irblitzligh.jpg)
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I have a book that says the Dora had a 30 mm hub gun..
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I have a book that says the Dora had a 30 mm hub gun..
Well, that depends on the version. The D-12 actually carried one to my knowledge, though it's questionable if it did see any actual service int he final days.
Milo: yes, that's it.
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Found this video (no sound) on youtube. I don't see any guns mounted on this plane though?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G2N4HGJus4
This film showed the Ar234 without any bombs, I guess that means it never carried any?
[/sarcasm]
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This film showed the Ar234 without any bombs, I guess that means it never carried any?
[/sarcasm]
The opening scene shows a Ar234 carrying bombs. It is the Ar234 V9, PH+SQ, WNr 130009. It made 110 flights.
The second Ar234 is the Ar234 V10 PH+SR, WNr 130010. It made 50 flight before crashing after the pilot, Janssen, bailed out.
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:lol
9 mins
Fish on the line!
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Is this the drawing?
(http://references.charlyecho.com/Aviation/Arado/Ar-234B-2/Cutaway/aradoat234b2irblitzligh.jpg)
lol, ya!
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I was clearing out my storage unit and I came across a book called "Hitler's Luftwaffe". Half of the book is a history of sorts by campaign and year range. The other half is pictures and detail of various WWII planes in the Luftwaffe. It's a coffee table book with lots of cool pictures written in the 70's and was written by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston.
I turned to the AR234 page and sure enough there is a cut away drawing of the 234 complete with rear facing MG151/20 cannons.
I know it's not the beat all end all of this situation, but I find it kind of odd someone drew them in if they weren't actually there....
I have a book by the man that penned that drawing. He created his images based on water color pictures and historical knowledge of previous aircraft by the same manufacturer. In short, the drawings are fantasy. He does mention that in some cases he got very close, but he did his work without even seeing the actual aircraft.
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Hey, it's another data point I ran across. <shrug>
I still think it's F-N laughable that people are getting their panties in a wad about a little used plane with a dubious gun package. It's not like we are talking about a Zeke with hispanios or anything.
Geez!
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There are many "data points" we could enter into evidence that are just as false. How about a P-51 with 50mm cannon? I've seen that in print also.