Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Vraciu on February 22, 2014, 05:11:56 PM
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People are telling me this is impossible. Just wondering.....
Nose down after a 190 in a P-51D both my ailerons ripped off. I was in high speed buffet but totally controllable in pitch and I did not roll or yaw at all. Heard some groaning and then both ailerons departed. People on 200 said they have never seen that happen.
Just wondering if anyone else has seen this?
If yes, what speed?
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Yes, You did it, It's always fun to bait a high nme on your 6 to dive in on you, put the nose down and cut the throttle. As you slow and appear to move down below their nose , they push over into even a stepper dive. Most often losing control at some point.
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I saw a 51 that ripped its wings off once in a dive and I was shocked, I was in my Brewster and 51 dove on me from alt he had 5-10K on me and so I nosed straight down got it up to 500 mph or so and cut hard left, Now I'm not sure what the pony pilot did but the next time I saw him it was just a fuselage flying by headed for earth at mach 3.
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I saw a 51 that ripped its wings off once in a dive and I was shocked, I was in my Brewster and 51 dove on me from alt he had 5-10K on me and so I nosed straight down got it up to 500 mph or so and cut hard left, Now I'm not sure what the pony pilot did but the next time I saw him it was just a fuselage flying by headed for earth at mach 3.
If you are going over a certain speed and just snap the stick (or if you have a sensitive joystick) then you can easily rip the wings off. I did this when I first started playing :lol
In your example it sounds like the p51 going so fast tried to get the shot without repositioning himself or slowing down (probably no time for the latter), so he ended up ripping his wings off.
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Yes, You did it, It's always fun to bait a high nme on your 6 to dive in on you, put the nose down and cut the throttle. As you slow and appear to move down below their nose , they push over into even a stepper dive. Most often losing control at some point.
But I had control.
My ailerons came off. I didn't do anything other than slowly pitch up. TINK TINK. GONE.
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Every aircraft has a do not exceed speed which you apparently exceeded. :D
I've broken wings on a P-51 but I don't recall just losing ailerons either. I've gone over 600 without anything breaking. Unless you have film for HTC there's no way to know what actually caused your crash. Stress damage is cumulative and pitching up does add stress. There may be gun damage or flak damage that isn't visible.
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Every aircraft has a do not exceed speed which you apparently exceeded. :D
I've broken wings on a P-51 but I don't recall just losing ailerons either. I've gone over 600 without anything breaking. Unless you have film for HTC there's no way to know what actually caused your crash. Stress damage is cumulative and pitching up does add stress. There may be gun damage or flak damage that isn't visible.
Not disputing it, generally.
I didn't save the film as I landed okay with rudder only. But.......................... .. Just seemed odd after the fact based on lots of input...
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Could be too you were being chased by another plane you did not see with tracers off.
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But I had control.
My ailerons came off. I didn't do anything other than slowly pitch up. TINK TINK. GONE.
right, must be a cheat, couldn't have been You. Accept the facts as presented. You were in a dive, parts of your airframe came off. Do you happen to have film?
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I lost my wings in a low G dive with minimal speed,i sent the video in the HTC and they seemed to ignore it. :cheers:
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I lost my wings in a low G dive with minimal speed,i sent the video in the HTC and they seemed to ignore it. :cheers:
What exactly is a low G dive? Does that mean you can do a High G dive? Do you mean that you performed a low G pull out from a dive?
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I've done the same.
I've also ripped a wing off of a P-38. I didn't think that was possible. :lol
http://www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/38j/p38rippedwing.ahf
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Not disputing it, generally.
I didn't save the film as I landed okay with rudder only. But.......................... .. Just seemed odd after the fact based on lots of input...
It's unusual in that losing wings is more common than just ailerons but damage from excessive speed is normal. It could be the length of time you were in high speed buffet caused cumulative damage that broke your ailerons and if you had pulled more G you would have lost the wings too. Without film all we can do is guess.
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I've done the same.
I've also ripped a wing off of a P-38. I didn't think that was possible. :lol
http://www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/38j/p38rippedwing.ahf
I've ripped the wings off a P-38 once, was fully loaded with ordnance and pulled too many Gs pulling out of a high speed dive. Only time it's happened.
ack-ack
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What exactly is a low G dive? Does that mean you can do a High G dive?
Of course. Push the nose forward gently and you'll be in a zero-G dive. Push a bit more and you'll start to accrue negative-Gs. Start the dive by rolling on your back first, then keep pulling the same way and you'll experience the same range of choices.
- oldman
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Could be too you were being chased by another plane you did not see with tracers off.
Could be but I don't think so...
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right, must be a cheat, couldn't have been You. Accept the facts as presented. You were in a dive, parts of your airframe came off. Do you happen to have film?
Never said it was a cheat. People were claiming it has never happened to anyone to their knowledge so I asked about it here to learn.
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I have ripped parts off most planes in dives over the years. I'm pretty sure I've ripped the wings off a mustang before. Not sure about ailerons.
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I have ripped parts off most planes in dives over the years. I'm pretty sure I've ripped the wings off a mustang before. Not sure about ailerons.
Well, if I got pinged by puffy ack or something before I dove in I suppose it could have weakened them, as someone suggested.
I have flown so fast in Mustangs that I needed trim to get the nose up. That wasn't the case this time so...... Hmmm.....
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Of course. Push the nose forward gently and you'll be in a zero-G dive. Push a bit more and you'll start to accrue negative-Gs. Start the dive by rolling on your back first, then keep pulling the same way and you'll experience the same range of choices.
- oldman
What I think you are trying to describe is: "Unloading" which if performed as you state: "push the nose forward gently " will not result in a zero-G. In order to unload the G load on an airframe the pitch change is quick, not gentle and the reduction in G force is only temporary, the purpose is to allow a quick acceleration of the airframe, but gravity quickly returns to a normal 1-G rating. If the procedure was performed as you describe the aircraft would always remain at a 1G + through the entire maneuver. My point being that there is no such thing as a zero G dive. The maneuver when performed correctly temporally reduces the G force on the airframe to zero to allow the aircraft to accelerate quickly. If the Pilot is accelerating nose down, the G force quickly returns to normal , the dive is performed at 1 G or greater.
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Traveler I think you're confusing load factor with acceleration of the airframe. Oldman is describing diving at the zero lift AOA.
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Traveler I think you're confusing load factor with acceleration of the airframe. Oldman is describing diving at the zero lift AOA.
No, Oldman was responding to my statement that there is no such thing as a zero G dive. That's the term being used by the OP. AOA has more to do with relative wind not G forces.
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You seem to be ignoring that AOA determines load factor. You push the nose down until the zero lift AOA, shown on the accelerometer as 0G, and you can maintain that in a dive until you hit the ground.
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No, Oldman was responding to my statement that there is no such thing as a zero G dive. That's the term being used by the OP. AOA has more to do with relative wind not G forces.
Really? Where?
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Really? Where?
Here:
Of course. Push the nose forward gently and you'll be in a zero-G dive. Push a bit more and you'll start to accrue negative-Gs. Start the dive by rolling on your back first, then keep pulling the same way and you'll experience the same range of choices.
- oldman
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You seem to be ignoring that AOA determines load factor. You push the nose down until the zero lift AOA, shown on the accelerometer as 0G, and you can maintain that in a dive until you hit the ground.
Please do it and film it. 5K will be enough alt to start from, say a 45 degree dive angle, to the ground, at 0G.
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Here:
Wrong again. I never used the terms you ascribed to me, the "OP".
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Wrong again. I never used the terms you ascribed to me, the "OP".
Sorry, your correct, I should have referred to Oldman. It was his statement. Not yours.
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Please do it and film it. 5K will be enough alt to start from, say a 45 degree dive angle, to the ground, at 0G.
You can't set the dive angle and specify 0G, gravity sets the angle on a ballistic flight path.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6amp05j126dnsy6/5k0Gdive.ahf
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You can't set the dive angle and specify 0G, gravity sets the angle on a ballistic flight path.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6amp05j126dnsy6/5k0Gdive.ahf
sorry, I don't download from mediafire so I have no idea what's in the file. Look I responded to the OP statement about his dive in on a specific target, an aircraft. Someone else mentioned a low G dive. As far as I know you can't dive on a specific target without at least some g. It's not the dive that presents the g unless you happen to be maneuvering. It's the pull out from the dive that will present the g's. I'm done with this.
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Sorry, your correct, I should have referred to Oldman. It was his statement. Not yours.
:salute :cheers:
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sorry, I don't download from mediafire so I have no idea what's in the file. Look I responded to the OP statement about his dive in on a specific target, an aircraft. Someone else mentioned a low G dive. As far as I know you can't dive on a specific target without at least some g. It's not the dive that presents the g unless you happen to be maneuvering. It's the pull out from the dive that will present the g's. I'm done with this.
The film shows what Oldman described which you said wasn't possible. If you want to say something different now that's fine. :aok
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I'm done with this.
As you wish. I'm not. I had to go online this evening to make sure I wasn't crazy.
You initiated this portion of the discussion by saying: "What exactly is a low G dive? Does that mean you can do a High G dive? Do you mean that you performed a low G pull out from a dive?" Your tone was such that I, at least, thought you were belittling Sunka's post ("I lost my wings in a low G dive..."). So I responded that you can do a high-G dive, either positive or negative; and this is so. I tried it tonight, achieving approximately negative-4 Gs and positive-3 Gs in a G6 starting from 10k. The dives were not straight-line, obviously, because stick pressure is required to incur the Gs. Nonetheless, the plane plummeted down and hit the ground during the course of the experiment. Most people would consider that to be a dive. I'll be pleased to post the films here if you can guide me through the process; I made certain to adjust my head position so as to show the G meter throughout. It is quite possible - easy, even - to maintain a zero-G dive.
Now it may be that you assumed that the dive must maintain a constant angle (your post, "Please do it and film it. 5K will be enough alt to start from, say a 45 degree dive angle, to the ground, at 0G," suggests that this is what you have in mind). Probably you're correct in that case, because maintaining a constant dive angle will ultimately put you at 1 G. But that wasn't Sunka's post, and it wasn't mine, either.
- oldman
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As you wish. I'm not. I had to go online this evening to make sure I wasn't crazy.
You initiated this portion of the discussion by saying: "What exactly is a low G dive? Does that mean you can do a High G dive? Do you mean that you performed a low G pull out from a dive?" Your tone was such that I, at least, thought you were belittling Sunka's post ("I lost my wings in a low G dive..."). So I responded that you can do a high-G dive, either positive or negative; and this is so. I tried it tonight, achieving approximately negative-4 Gs and positive-3 Gs in a G6 starting from 10k. The dives were not straight-line, obviously, because stick pressure is required to incur the Gs. Nonetheless, the plane plummeted down and hit the ground during the course of the experiment. Most people would consider that to be a dive. I'll be pleased to post the films here if you can guide me through the process; I made certain to adjust my head position so as to show the G meter throughout. It is quite possible - easy, even - to maintain a zero-G dive.
Now it may be that you assumed that the dive must maintain a constant angle (your post, "Please do it and film it. 5K will be enough alt to start from, say a 45 degree dive angle, to the ground, at 0G," suggests that this is what you have in mind). Probably you're correct in that case, because maintaining a constant dive angle will ultimately put you at 1 G. But that wasn't Sunka's post, and it wasn't mine, either.
- oldman
:D
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As you wish. I'm not. I had to go online this evening to make sure I wasn't crazy.
You initiated this portion of the discussion by saying: "What exactly is a low G dive? Does that mean you can do a High G dive? Do you mean that you performed a low G pull out from a dive?" Your tone was such that I, at least, thought you were belittling Sunka's post ("I lost my wings in a low G dive..."). So I responded that you can do a high-G dive, either positive or negative; and this is so. I tried it tonight, achieving approximately negative-4 Gs and positive-3 Gs in a G6 starting from 10k. The dives were not straight-line, obviously, because stick pressure is required to incur the Gs. Nonetheless, the plane plummeted down and hit the ground during the course of the experiment. Most people would consider that to be a dive. I'll be pleased to post the films here if you can guide me through the process; I made certain to adjust my head position so as to show the G meter throughout. It is quite possible - easy, even - to maintain a zero-G dive.
Now it may be that you assumed that the dive must maintain a constant angle (your post, "Please do it and film it. 5K will be enough alt to start from, say a 45 degree dive angle, to the ground, at 0G," suggests that this is what you have in mind). Probably you're correct in that case, because maintaining a constant dive angle will ultimately put you at 1 G. But that wasn't Sunka's post, and it wasn't mine, either.
- oldman
Traveler and you are both correct, actually.
The problem is that G's are actually a measure of acceleration, while the G-meter in the cockpit measures acceleration as it pertains to the load the wings have to bear (or rather, it measures how much the plane is "opposing" the forces its encountering).
In a "0G" dive (as measured from the G-meter), you're still under the influence of 1G of acceleration (gravity, aka "God's G"), but since the plane isn't opposing that G, the airframe experiences 0 load factor. Since you've unloaded the aircraft, your wings no longer have to produce lift, therefore the plane is functionally weightless (again, in terms of lift required to keep the aircraft in flight). The G meter will measure that the airframe doesn't have any opposition to the G-forces its encountering. However, you are still accelerating towards the earth at 1G.
The accelerometer/G-meter is measuring the relative number of G's the airframe in experiencing, not the absolute number of G's present. When it shows as being under 0 G's of influence, it's simply stating the wings don't have to produce any lift (and all of the performance implications that comes with). It doesn't measure the actual pull of gravity, however. If it did, it would still read at 1G. If you level out into straight and level flight, you are now opposing God's G (it's trying to pull you down, while your lift vector is pulling you up) and the G-meter will show your airframe is undergoing 1G of acceleration (you're accelerating away from gravity at the same rate its pulling you down).
You are always undergoing 1G of acceleration in some aspect, it's just not always measurable from the cockpit.
So, again, you're both correct. A zero-G dive, as measured from the instrument panel and in terms of lift performance, is possible, but the plane itself is still under 1G of acceleration from God's G.
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The problem is that G's are actually a measure of acceleration, while the G-meter in the cockpit measures acceleration as it pertains to the load the wings have to bear (or rather, it measures how much the plane is "opposing" the forces its encountering).
So the G-meter more accurately should be called the "load-meter." Good to know.
- oldman
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So the G-meter more accurately should be called the "load-meter." Good to know.
- oldman
Precisely, which is why unloading the plane is called, well, "unloading." Actually, in many aircraft, it is called a "load meter."
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Just as transverse G is measured by an accelerometer and not a load meter. Sorta...