Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Scherf on February 26, 2014, 04:39:46 PM
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Apparently a Japanese city (Minamikyuushuu) wants its collection of letters home from Kamikaze pilots to be given UN world heritage status:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26256048
:bolt:
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I fail to see how this will end badly. This is something that SHOULD be remembered.
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I agree, it should be included.
ack-ack
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concur..
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How despicable.. kamikaze pilots.. but what would you have done had you been in their shoes.. I say yes to the letters.. it is part of world war 2 heritage without a doubt..
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It's part of history, there is no reason at all for them not to be included. We talk about the 2 atomic weapons used in the war, the delivering aircraft, all kinds of stuff like that, so talking about a number of guys who decided to fly there planes into ships certainly shouldn't be excluded from any medium, UN or otherwise. All aspects of warfare are terrible, but none should be off limits in any setting, even among the UN World Heritage center, at least IMO.
I would be interested myself to read their final thoughts, to see what compelled them to volunteer for such missions, or if drafted for them, how they felt about it, going to certain fate. I was just reading a book by a very well known aviation author, Walter J Boyne, that had interesting information about the Kamikaze's - I had really had no idea about the effectiveness they had until I read this information.
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It's part of history, there is no reason at all for them not to be included. We talk about the 2 atomic weapons used in the war, the delivering aircraft, all kinds of stuff like that, so talking about a number of guys who decided to fly there planes into ships certainly shouldn't be excluded from any medium, UN or otherwise. All aspects of warfare are terrible, but none should be off limits in any setting, even among the UN World Heritage center, at least IMO.
I would be interested myself to read their final thoughts, to see what compelled them to volunteer for such missions, or if drafted for them, how they felt about it, going to certain fate. I was just reading a book by a very well known aviation author, Walter J Boyne, that had interesting information about the Kamikaze's - I had really had no idea about the effectiveness they had until I read this information.
I think by including the letters, it will dispel a lot of myths about kamikaze pilots, namely they were all fanatics that volunteered for that duty.
ack-ack
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There is also a level of hypocrisy surrounding the almost universal decrying of the Tokkō Tai units and their actions. Flying in combat for Japan at that late stage in the war meant almost certain death even in regular units, and some of the allies' most decorated war heroes sacrificed their lives in actions that meant certain death, like throwing themselves on hand grenades or charging enemy fortifications alone. Given Japan's war situation, their actions were understandable and pragmatic; thousands of Japanese lives were being lost on a daily basis, and a lot of them were not even in uniform. If a handful of dedicated pilots could sink or cripple an enemy carrier by sacrificing their own lives it could save thousands of Japanese lives later on.
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There is also a level of hypocrisy surrounding the almost universal decrying of the Tokkō Tai units and their actions. Flying in combat for Japan at that late stage in the war meant almost certain death even in regular units, and some of the allies' most decorated war heroes sacrificed their lives in actions that meant certain death, like throwing themselves on hand grenades or charging enemy fortifications alone. Given Japan's war situation, their actions were understandable and pragmatic; thousands of Japanese lives were being lost on a daily basis, and a lot of them were not even in uniform. If a handful of dedicated pilots could sink or cripple an enemy carrier by sacrificing their own lives it could save thousands of Japanese lives later on.
Yup. Sakai's book opened my eyes to this. If you're assigned to attack a 1945 American carrier task force, you know that means you're going to die. Might as well make the most of it.
- oldman
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I don't see any problem with the letters...
It is through the words on those letters that we can understand their mindset and possibly continue to explain the decisions of our species.
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I was thinking more along the lines of "The timing couldn't be worse, given the already craptacular state of relations between Japan and its neighbours."
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/editorial/2014/02/08/78/1600000000AEN20140208000600315F.html
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2014-02/14/content_31469007.htm
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I was thinking more along the lines of "The timing couldn't be worse, given the already craptacular state of relations between Japan and its neighbours."
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/editorial/2014/02/08/78/1600000000AEN20140208000600315F.html
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2014-02/14/content_31469007.htm
I don't think Japan has been friendly with any of its neighbors at any point within the past 500 years or so. Especially the past seventy.
That is to say, now's as good a time as any.
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There is also a level of hypocrisy surrounding the almost universal decrying of the Tokkō Tai units and their actions. Flying in combat for Japan at that late stage in the war meant almost certain death even in regular units, and some of the allies' most decorated war heroes sacrificed their lives in actions that meant certain death, like throwing themselves on hand grenades or charging enemy fortifications alone. Given Japan's war situation, their actions were understandable and pragmatic; thousands of Japanese lives were being lost on a daily basis, and a lot of them were not even in uniform. If a handful of dedicated pilots could sink or cripple an enemy carrier by sacrificing their own lives it could save thousands of Japanese lives later on.
Gibberish!
The Japanese culture went the same way as the German, down the toilet
Manchuria, Nanking and death camps.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the final outcome of Japanese aggression against it neibours
The Japanese were fanatics like the Germans, I would include the Italians but they too bone idle to be very good at being fanatical
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Gibberish!
The Japanese culture went the same way as the German, down the toilet
Manchuria, Nanking and death camps.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the final outcome of Japanese aggression against it neibours
The Japanese were fanatics like the Germans, I would include the Italians but they too bone idle to be very good at being fanatical
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes)
Never forget that no nation has squeaky clean hands.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes)
Never forget that no nation has squeaky clean hands.
The neutrality of this article is disputed.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes)
Never forget that no nation has squeaky clean hands.
Dont deviate from topic or mention native Americans :old:
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There is also a level of hypocrisy surrounding the almost universal decrying of the Tokkō Tai units and their actions. Flying in combat for Japan at that late stage in the war meant almost certain death even in regular units, and some of the allies' most decorated war heroes sacrificed their lives in actions that meant certain death, like throwing themselves on hand grenades or charging enemy fortifications alone. Given Japan's war situation, their actions were understandable and pragmatic; thousands of Japanese lives were being lost on a daily basis, and a lot of them were not even in uniform. If a handful of dedicated pilots could sink or cripple an enemy carrier by sacrificing their own lives it could save thousands of Japanese lives later on.
I think your critically confusing something here, the act of throwing yourself on a handgrenade in and of itself is suicide (valor), but it was to save lives of those around you, not to take them.
The act of flying a plane into an enemy carrier was not the act of saving lives (fanatics)but the act of taking them.
Two very differnet motives and justifiable acts.
Just like many of the kamikaze pilots that never made it to their targets stated that they were disappointed in that they were not able to kill Americans, not so much in saving lives of their countrymen.
50 years from today, will we also think that al Qaeda flying planes into buildings or suicide bombers be considered somehow not fanatics as well?
I agree the letters are a glimpse of the mindset of the Japanese towards their ruler at the time and should be used in hopes that history does not repeat itself in a museum for all to see.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMs4IJQVRYM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMs4IJQVRYM)
I see this. And I see those letters.
And no, that is not a nuclear weapon that just went off - but an entire ship, that took out several other ships nearby.
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I think your critically confusing something here, the act of throwing yourself on a handgrenade in and of itself is suicide (valor), but it was to save lives of those around you, not to take them.
The act of flying a plane into an enemy carrier was not the act of saving lives (fanatics)but the act of taking them.
Two very differnet motives and justifiable acts.
Just like many of the kamikaze pilots that never made it to their targets stated that they were disappointed in that they were not able to kill Americans, not so much in saving lives of their countrymen.
50 years from today, will we also think that al Qaeda flying planes into buildings or suicide bombers be considered somehow not fanatics as well?
I agree the letters are a glimpse of the mindset of the Japanese towards their ruler at the time and should be used in hopes that history does not repeat itself in a museum for all to see.
Al Qaeda was a group of civilians flying civilian aircraft into a civilian target. Kamikaze pilots were military men flying military aircraft while attacking military targets. What may I ask is the difference between dropping bombs on a Carrier and running your plane into it?
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The Base are not civilians Revo. :old:
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What has happened in the UK?!? Why are they all retarded?! :furious
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What has happened in the UK?!? Why are they all retarded?! :furious
I'm here to quote a retarded statement.
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Al Qaeda was a group of civilians flying civilian aircraft into a civilian target. Kamikaze pilots were military men flying military aircraft while attacking military targets. What may I ask is the difference between dropping bombs on a Carrier and running your plane into it?
My reference to Al Qaeda and the kamikaze was how fanatically similar they are, each desperate to kill Americans no matter if they are in uniforms or not, each waging a war they believe in as to be true and effective suicidal tactics. Civilians they may appear to be, they were in fact militants.
To answer your question IMO is simple, living to do it again.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMs4IJQVRYM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMs4IJQVRYM)
I see this. And I see those letters.
And no, that is not a nuclear weapon that just went off - but an entire ship, that took out several other ships nearby.
And I see the comments. :O
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it should be included....but i'm not too sure it should go to the un......
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My reference to Al Qaeda and the kamikaze was how fanatically similar they are, each desperate to kill Americans no matter if they are in uniforms or not...
That's just not factual. The Japanese were not out to just kill Americans, they were trying to stem the tide of American warships bearing down on their nation. Big difference.
This, on the other hand...
(http://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B-29s-firebombs.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Tokyo_1945-3-10-1.jpg)
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That's just not factual. The Japanese were not out to just kill Americans, they were trying to stem the tide of American warships bearing down on their nation. Big difference.
This, on the other hand...
(http://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B-29s-firebombs.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Tokyo_1945-3-10-1.jpg)
that picture is photoshopped.
semp
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Which one? There are two pictures.
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I think the problem is that the Japanese have never fully appreciated the sickening brutality they visited on every country they invaded or fought not least China. I'm not sure if they even now appreciate exactly what was done in the name of the Emperor. Their attempt to give those letters UN heritage status smacks of incredible naivety and just confirms in my mind how insular they still are. Sure the letters are history but they're nothing to be proud of. The only use those letters would to be is to serve as a warning to future and current generations about the risks of excessive patriotism and nationalism.
That would be useful as judging by the way things are going now in many countries. This lesson is quickly being forgotten just as the last of the WW2 generation who protected our freedoms are dying out.
We really don't need a WW3 to finally get the message across.
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Which one? There are two pictures.
oops on my table it looked like one single picture. sorry.
semp
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np :aok
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Isn't every soldier willing to die for their country if needed? How do the Kamikazes differ from all of the others, other than that they used one way aeroplanes? If the Japanese had been on the winning side, we wouldn't speculate on this subject...
+1 for the letters.
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IF you have Netflix watch the Documentary on the Kamikaze.. Most of them volunteered to go to there death because they didn't want to lose face. Like I said watch that documentary. There are 3 surviving kamikaze survier on there. They actually never made it to the ships that they were assigned. One duked it out for 37 mins against us Fighters. USN fighters ran out of ammo so he flew away. Got home and he had 78 bullet holes in his plane.
Also read Tim Bradly's books: Flag of Our Fathers Flyboys
These books give you a fairly in depth view of what it was like to be a Japenese at that time. My Great Grandfather was in the Corp and he talked about how scary it was to be on those Islands at night durning the Banzai attacks. HE helped assault 9 beaches in the Pacific. He saw many friends lost in those years and he never got over it. Later years of his life he would always have a can of beer in his hand. Had his own fridge for it. He was ever drunk just enough in the system to dull the pain.
He would always say that the Japs were crazy but they were brave in the face of danger. They knew they were going to die, and they were going to take you along.
I think it would be smashing to give the letters to the UN
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And I see the comments. :O
I liked this comment
"Someone on board was taking a *crap* when that happened and woke up in the afterlife wondering what the hell it was he ate yesterday."
:lol
I say +1 for the letters, never hurts to get a full perspective. Just like Bizman said, "Many troops on all sides fought for their country and were willing to die for it". No matter the reasons, when I think of WWII I don't see anyone being less human than another, I see people fighting for their beliefs, whether I agree with them or not is beside the point.
:salute
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"Ore wa Kimi no Tame ni Koso, Shini ni Iku"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=908y4HXeKmw
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You cannot ignore the pitiless regime they were fighting for. Neither can you ignore the consistent callous brutality of the Japanese soldiers. Maybe you'd like to save the letters of the men who casually bayonetted many thousands of Chinese or those who worked to death all those Allied POWs or raped and slaughtered the people of Manila? Wouldn't it be interesting to read the letters of those Japanese who killed American prisoners and ate their livers? That's without even mentioning the futile and stupid Kamikaze tactics that killed people pointlessly when all was lost anyway.
The fact is that the Japanese people lost their honour before and during WW2 and have had difficulty coming to terms with that fact ever since. To honour them or their actions is to give legitimacy to the regime that bred them to be cold fanatics. You cannot separate the two.
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I recommend watching the Smithsonian Channel "Day of the Kamikaze". I know it's on netflix, not sure where else.
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You cannot ignore the pitiless regime they were fighting for. Neither can you ignore the consistent callous brutality of the Japanese soldiers. Maybe you'd like to save the letters of the men who casually bayonetted many thousands of Chinese or those who worked to death all those Allied POWs or raped and slaughtered the people of Manila? Wouldn't it be interesting to read the letters of those Japanese who killed American prisoners and ate their livers? That's without even mentioning the futile and stupid Kamikaze tactics that killed people pointlessly when all was lost anyway.
The fact is that the Japanese people lost their honour before and during WW2 and have had difficulty coming to terms with that fact ever since. To honour them or their actions is to give legitimacy to the regime that bred them to be cold fanatics. You cannot separate the two.
They were no more "cold fanatics" than the young men who futilely charged the Russian artillery at Balaclava, or German machine guns at the Somme. Do you really think soldiers fight for countries, kings, emperors or democracies? Are you that naive? They fight for their families, friends and the man standing next to them. In WWII there were no saints; tell me how much "honor" there was in killing an estimated 350.000 Japanese civilians by firebombing their homes and nuking two of their cities. The military value of those atrocities can be argued, but there was no honor in it what so ever. Furthermore I'm not sure if it is better that the men who flew these giant killing machines and dropped hundreds-of-thousands of napalm-filled "Tokyo Calling Cards", as they so callously called them, on helpless civilians were not fanatics... but rather ordinary men with utter disregard for the mass slaughter of human lives they were committing. I fail to see how that's better, or in any way honorable. Yet those men are heroes.
If the Japanese want to honor these men for their bravery and sacrifice, then I don't think anyone has the right, or moral high ground to deny them.
(http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/RRJn0FI44oyz0Zs535_qBg/l.jpg)
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it is part of history. we will never know full details until we know what they were thinking.
I remember reading in the book by the top Japanese ace how one of the kamikazes turned his plane around and crashed into a hangar destroying 3 other kamikaze planes on the ground. he left a letter saying he didn't want to let 3 more of his friends die.
semp
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it is part of history. we will never know full details until we know what they were thinking.
I remember reading in the book by the top Japanese ace how one of the kamikazes turned his plane around and crashed into a hangar destroying 3 other kamikaze planes on the ground. he left a letter saying he didn't want to let 3 more of his friends die.
semp
That's awesome... in the true meaning of the word. I hope this man's name is remembered.
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Here it go right here.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwl9jv_day-of-the-kamikaze-1_shortfilms
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Bear in mind, to be granted UNESCO World Heritage Status requires the same significance for the human experience as, for instance, the Grand Canyon, Yosemite National Park, The Last Supper, old St. Petersburg, the Great Barrier Reef, the Schoenbrunn Palace, the Great Wall, Angkor Wat, the Forbidden City, Mt. Fuji, or the Galapagos Islands.
The idea that letters home from young flyers about to die have the same significance for mankind as the above is the height of Japan-as-victim thinking. Put 'em in a museum, publish 'em, translate 'em, fine. But world heritage status? Give me a fargin' break.
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Bear in mind, to be granted UNESCO World Heritage Status requires the same significance for the human experience as, for instance, the Grand Canyon, Yosemite National Park, The Last Supper, old St. Petersburg, the Great Barrier Reef, the Schoenbrunn Palace, the Great Wall, Angkor Wat, the Forbidden City, Mt. Fuji, or the Galapagos Islands.
The idea that letters home from young flyers about to die have the same significance for mankind as the above is the height of Japan-as-victim thinking. Put 'em in a museum, publish 'em, translate 'em, fine. But world heritage status? Give me a fargin' break.
I can agree with this. It is important not to consider imperial Japan as a sort of embodiment of evil compared to anyone else, but not do the opposite either. Every 19 year old in every service the world over performed amazing sacrifice.
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Bear in mind, to be granted UNESCO World Heritage Status requires the same significance for the human experience as, for instance, the Grand Canyon, Yosemite National Park, The Last Supper, old St. Petersburg, the Great Barrier Reef, the Schoenbrunn Palace, the Great Wall, Angkor Wat, the Forbidden City, Mt. Fuji, or the Galapagos Islands.
The idea that letters home from young flyers about to die have the same significance for mankind as the above is the height of Japan-as-victim thinking. Put 'em in a museum, publish 'em, translate 'em, fine. But world heritage status? Give me a fargin' break.
There's a wide variety in "human experience" in the list you provided. It has been estimated that 4 to 6 million people died building the Great Wall, Angkor Wat is said to be built by slaves, there was a mass slaughter in the Forbidden City after it had been built by a million unnamed workers, tens of thousands died building old St. Petersburg... What would make the Kamikazes less worthy? Are the numbers too low, only about 4000 pilots and 4900 Americans died in the Kamikaze attacks?
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How many died building the statue of liberty? It's on the list too - I suppose I could count up drownings on the reef to see if it clears the criteria.
Besides, if it's all about Japanese casualties, the Hiroshima Genbaku dome has UNESCO status, and the Japanese attempt to give the same status to the letters says a great deal about how twisted the whole idea is.
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GScholz, with due respect you are not comparing like with like. Perhaps it's you being naïve or perhaps more. In recent years there has been an attempt to somehow rehabilitate both the Nazis and Imperial Japan by dredging up examples of Allied atrocities and war crimes. A classic example being the red herring of the link to British war crimes wiki page on this very forum.
Yes of course no country has clean hands when it comes to atrocity. But two wrongs don't make a right. Both the Nazis and Imperial Japan stand out for their brutality and fanaticism, their attempts at genocide and the countless individual acts of brutality by their military often face to face on helpless non combatants. You cannot simply say they were merely doing their duty when their actions were not that of honourable soldiers. But of killers and sadists.
The Kamikazes were victims of the regime they served but to honour them is also to honour the regime that sent them out to die and kill.
I know full well that that wars are not black and white. But unless we are careful we end up making no judgement on the actions of men in war. Suddenly we have a moral equivalence and then anything goes. Allied excesses are no excuse for the actions of the Japanese. It's as simple as that.
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How many died building the statue of liberty?
Depends on if you count the soldiers who sacrificed their lives for it to be built in the first place...
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Depends on if you count the soldiers who sacrificed their lives for it to be built in the first place...
There was almost 140,000 French killed in the Franco-Prussian War.
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Depends on if you count the soldiers who sacrificed their lives for it to be built in the first place...
Funny you should say that considering Americans at the time didn't really even want the statue.
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Cpxxx, again you seem to want to judge every Japanese or German soldier for the collective actions of their nations. I cannot subscribe to that way of thinking, and you show the typical hypocrisy that is so common in the west. To the victims it makes little difference if they were burned to death in their own home by the SS or burned to death in their own home by the Allied air forces. You can argue that one side represented a better political system and moral values more inline with your own, although one of the Allies was also a horrible dictatorship that systematically murdered 7 million of its own people in the "Holodomor". State sanctioned racism was present on both sides, and the atrocities committed by all combatants in WWII were monstrous in the extreme. The only thing that differentiates them are numbers, or as Stalin would put it: Statistics. If "collective guilt" is really your point the every rape and murder, every atrocity committed by the Soviets during WWII, and after WWII, was made possible by the vast support they were given by the Western Allies. No one's hands were clean in WWII and I find it extremely hypocritical for one side to point fingers at the other when their own hands are drenched in the blood of innocents.
The Kamikaze did not bayonet women and children. Nor did they set women and children on fire. When they did kill, their victims were invariably uniformed combatants, and at sea there was no "collateral damage" either. In most cases they only managed to kill themselves. In many ways they were some of the most honorable warriors in a very brutal and dirty war.
It's all about perspective...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/latvianss.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/estonianss.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/ssmemorial.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/The_Monument_of_the_SS-Galicia_in_Lviv_Ukraine.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/8273120325032251.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/5492120325031035.jpg)
Waffen-SS memorials in Eastern Europe and Ukraine
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To the victims it makes little difference if they were burned to death in their own home by the SS or burned to death in their own home by the Allied air forces.
If you restrict your analysis to this perspective, then there is no difference between an auto accident and a murder.
Waffen-SS memorials in Eastern Europe and Ukraine
Seriously? Seriously? Time to get some plane tickets and spray paint.
- oldman
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If you restrict your analysis to this perspective, then there is no difference between an auto accident and a murder.
Intent. Firebombing a city cannot be described as "accidental".
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IF you have Netflix watch the Documentary on the Kamikaze.. Most of them volunteered to go to there death because they didn't want to lose face.
Japanese culture didn't produce American mothers.
"Just because Johnny Tanaka flies off a cliff doesn't mean you have to."
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Seriously? Seriously? Time to get some plane tickets and spray paint.
Yup. In Latvia they even have a "Legionaries Memorial Day" celebrating their SS volunteers. What you must understand is that in these countries the Russians were the invaders and the Germans were in many ways considered liberators.
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Intent. Firebombing a city cannot be described as "accidental".
Thank you. Intent is also what distinguishes firebombing enemy cities from locking women and children in the town church and setting it on fire; or setting out to rape, torture and massacre the population of a Chinese city, for example.
- oldman
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Not really when the intent of the fire bombing is to kill and terrorize the civilian population. The Allied air forces just had better tools for the job.
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Yup. In Latvia they even have a "Legionaries Memorial Day" celebrating their SS volunteers. What you must understand is that in these countries the Russians were the invaders and the Germans were in many ways considered liberators.
Which brings back an Oldman memory....
When I was a junior in high school...1968-69...I had a stately, if somewhat elderly, Estonian woman as my German III teacher. Behind her back we called her "the Frau." Her father had owned a car dealership, until the Russians occupied Estonia in 1940 and expropriated it in the name of the People. The Frau herself escaped to Germany and lived in Nuremberg during the war. Her brother drowned when the Russians sank the Wilhelm Gustloff. After the war the Frau found her way to England, and then, somehow, to sunny Orefield, Pennsylvania.
We had a school assembly one day which featured what became a heated, nearly-violent discussion of race relations. The German III class immediately followed the assembly. We were all very excited, of course. The Frau entered the room with a smug expression on her face. One of the kids politely asked her what she thought of the assembly.
"In Europe vee haf no racial problems," the Frau replied.
Now we certainly were not the brightest students in America - it was Orefield, Pennsylvania after all - but even we recognized that there were problems with that statement. "Well...what....what about...the Jews...?" someone finally asked.
And the Frau instantly became angry. In retrospect, thinking on it now, it was the only time I ever saw her get angry.
"You must understand," she said. "The Jews owned everything!"
That made quite an impression on me then. It has stuck with me all these years. While it plainly should not be the foundation of a generalization of how the Oldman views the population of the Baltic States, I'm afraid that it is.
- oldman
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Antisemitism was rampant in the whole of Europe at the time... and, perhaps to a lesser degree, in America. Many Jews who perished in the death camps had tried to get to America, just to be denied access. The German passenger liner St. Louis sailed from Hamburg in 1939 carrying 937 Jewish refugees bound for Cuba. The majority of refugees had applied for US visas, and had planned to stay in Cuba only until they could enter the US. They were denied to make landing in Cuba. The German captain then set course for America. Sailing so close to Florida that they could see the lights of Miami, the US government denied them entry. The St. Louis sailed back to Europe on June 6, 1939. 254 of the passengers died in the Holocaust; 84 who had been in Belgium, 84 who had found refuge in Holland, and 86 who had been admitted to France. The St. Louis was but one ship of many.
Germany must take the blame for the horrible atrocities they committed against the European Jewry, but the whole world shares some of that blame for we all failed them. That's also why the state of Israel exists today.
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The Kamikaze did not bayonet women and children. Nor did they set women and children on fire. When they did kill, their victims were invariably uniformed combatants, and at sea there was no "collateral damage" either. In most cases they only managed to kill themselves. In many ways they were some of the most honorable warriors in a very brutal and dirty war.
Some may have, some certainly would have, and all sure as heck would have if ordered to. You cant compare the atrocities of the Axis with the actions of the western Democracies. I wonder how many of those kamikazes made one last trip to the rape camps, filled with female Korean and Chinese slaves, for one last throw before going Boom!
None of this matters tho. Its "History" and must be recorded. All of it.
Thing is in Asia they think different and this is a very controversial and emotional subject there cause they think different then we do. They have concepts of "face", "low/High positions", are very sensitive to status and racism. And most of all have a need to revere ancestors. Many folks of other Asian countries will see this as another Japanese ploy to legitimize the legacy of their for fathers. I know most of you know this. I think the more windows we have to look into the face of that terrible war the better off we'll all be.
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You cant compare the atrocities of the Axis with the actions of the western Democracies.
I can, and I do. I call a spade for a spade. I don't call "actions" atrocities only when the wrong nation did it. The Nanking massacre was an atrocity. The bombing of Dresden was an atrocity. Countless atrocities were committed by all the major combatants. I do compare them because they're all off-the-scale in brutality and disregard for human lives. The only reason the majority of the senior officers in the Allied air forces weren't hanged after the war is because they were lucky enough to be on the winning side.
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Antisemitism was rampant in the whole of Europe at the time... and, perhaps to a lesser degree, in America.
I can count the number of concentration camps where Jews (German or Japanese Americans, for that matter) were gassed, put into ovens and whatever was left shoveled into mass graves in the U.S. on no hands.
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I can count the number of concentration camps where Jews (German or Japanese Americans, for that matter) were gassed, put into ovens and whatever was left shoveled into mass graves in the U.S. on no hands.
Sure, and they can do the same in Latvia...
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The United States did not exterminate the Japanese in the interment camps nor did we make lamp shades from their skin let alone toss them in ovens to hide the evidence. The Japanese-Americans were interned because of the mass paranoia that followed the attack on Pearl Harbor. If the smurfs attacked Pearl Harbor they would been interned.
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I'm not sure how that is relevant, but ok.
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This thread is on a collision course with the lock down train.
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Please lock it now. The tracks are coming apart. I second guess myself for posting in it.
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Perhaps it's for the best...
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At this point it does not appear to be able to accomplish anything positive.