Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gatt on January 30, 2001, 03:35:00 AM
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I often see a strange maneuver in arena. It happens with high wing-load a/c like Hogs, Focke-Wulfs and Typhoons. Sometimes with Nikis.
Well, with my C.205V I'm chasing a Hog at 350-400mph TAS, 1,500-2,000yds distance, and closing (one hundred yards every some seconds, that is). Suddenly I see the distance dropping very quickly. I understand the Hog has just done a 180deg change of direction, and hes pointing to me with an HO attack. In other words, the Hog had turned with a very small (or no) radius and getting very little (or no) lateral separation. I have seen this thing done many times by very good pilots like Torque.
Yesterday I saw Zeke and his Hog doing this thing. I was 800-1,000yds and closing on him. I spotted him rocking his wings violently and voilà ... he went straight to me H2H after a 180deg change of direction, almost on the same axis ... and after that he was fast and accelerating. Eventually my wingie shot him down, but only after 2-3 of those weird maneuvers. We were both puzzled.
Can someone explain me how the thing work? Is it a trick? Thank for your help and ... sorry for my written english.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-30-2001).]
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snap roll ?
hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Snap-whatever, but plz explain it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Same thing has happened to me few times and could not figure out what it is. Seems like the con is flying straight ahead, then stop and in next second he is coming towards you at seemingly full speed.
I would think even with snap roll you cant do perfect 180 degree turn at ful speed and not to lose significant amount of energy.
Well, it happens so rarely that it does not bother me too much.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Hmmm, do we have R/C models, Extra's and Sukoi's or WWII fighters here? Jokes apart I'd like to hear something from trainers or snap-rolls wizards.
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It is pretty hard for me to explain in a correct english this maneuver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
When the situation is completly deseperate I try to make a break turn stalling the internal wing plus giving a hard rudder kick inside the virage (doing a kind of uncomplete snap roll) to get the HO but it almost always fail because of lag issues and weakness of the Yak guns.
And after you have no more E to spend ...
I would think even with snap roll you cant do perfect 180 degree turn at ful speed and not to lose significant amount of energy.
That's the "drwabck" <= drawback (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) you see how I type (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Forgot to say it's like entering a controlled spin and just doing 1/2 of the 1st turn.
I can do something like that in just my favorites ride : Yak an Tiffi in any other plane I lawdart ASAP ...
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Id like to see a film of that!
Hogs and N1ks can cut engine, do a wingover which near-stalls the plane and go full throttle when the nose is pointed down. You can turn almost on a dime that way, though you have to keep your nose down till you get 300 speed again.
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There is no quick reverse manuver like a snap roll, snap rolls do not change your flight path very much. Simple way to see whats going on is to film the fight. My guess is that the quick turn was caused by some form of tail slide , only way to know for sure is film.
HiTech
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Have a look to :
http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html (http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html) http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/index.html (http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/index.html)
and yes Gatt I was joking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ok HT, I'll try to film something. I have only to remember it ...
LOL Straffo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by straffo:
http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html (http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html)
Before getting mand with this link and the language used, be aware this is skateboard related.
Yes Gatt, I've seen the effect you describe several times, only with F4U. Usually the con is 1.5 - 2k in front of you, then it seems it reverses with no lateral or vertical displacement. I think the F4U uses its rudder authority to slide violently while cutting power and banking, then pulling hard while compensating with opposite rudder, nose a bit low and power up again. Cant understand other way.
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I've seen a few oddities, that I chaulk up to the net. Nothing too odd
But I have to say that the guys who make me drop my jaw and wonder how the hell they did what they did are the 13TAS guys.
Man. They can fly the P-51 like no others in any other plane. And I do not think for a moment it's a cheat, or they are gaming the game, they just know thier plane inside and out. I just wish I'd filmed last night so I could try and see how they do thier reversals and keep alot of their "E" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I imagine others are the same; be it the Niki, F4U, Spit or what have you.
-Westy
-Westy
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you are just dicoveing this move ? this and the on demand 3 axis spin with at will recovery ( maindew is best known but many others) allow people who really dont use acm as it is in the book to dominate the arena. and i for one think it sucks. drives me mad to chase a guy down close within guns range and see him spin and leave on a totaly diffent flight path and get this losing little e.
wasent like this before the flight model was changed to fix e retention.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Before getting mand with this link and the language used, be aware this is skateboard related.
Shhhhhh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'm about to left work early today (I have not been able to do that for a too LONG time and I'm pretty happy) that's perhaps why I keep joking since noon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And now for something completly different
(if you feel nauseus don't look at that or eat some bananas 1st (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) http://perso.club-internet.fr/billeau/cplr01.mpg (http://perso.club-internet.fr/billeau/cplr01.mpg)
try to get in his 6 ...
Yes Gatt, I've seen the effect you describe several times, only with F4U. Usually the con is 1.5 - 2k in front of you, then it seems it reverses with no lateral or vertical displacement. I think the F4U uses its rudder authority to slide violently while cutting power and banking, then pulling hard while compensating with opposite rudder, nose a bit low and power up again. Cant understand other way.
Yep you got it, a kind of hard core Wing Over but it's no reserved to the F4U the Yak can do it also.
<edit> fumbled fu* as usual ...
[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 01-30-2001).]
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Dunno gang. I've logged quite a few hours and I have yet to see anything resembling these moves. Ive seen Torque use a hard break turn to reverse on me from 2.5K to get a 12 oclock HO snapshot but it was not anything instantaneous. I was a high G break probably well into blackout. Might be some horizontal skid component in that but there is a considerable loss of E.
The only thing I think is porked is the insane E retention of the Niki and some other planes. As others have tried, I have started loops in the Niki and can gain a tiny bit of altitude each time. The only way this is possible is if the thrust to weight ratio of that plane is greater than 1, and we all know that none of the available planes in WWII had a T/W ratio greater than 1.
-Ding
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 01-30-2001).]
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Dingy to gain alt each loop you do not need a T/W > 1, All you need is more thrust than drag for the requierd lift to maintain the loop. A loop is nothing more than a sustained turn as far as e retention works.
HiTech
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Westy,
I was in that 13th TAS furball against you last night.
I think the slaute goes the other way. You did a simply fantastic job.
What TAS has is teamwork. They certainly aren't flying the best turnfighter in the arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
They simply avoid the mistake of getting impatient. They don't all roll in on your six and try to chase you down. Instead, they make passes. While the enemy is continually turning and dodging and bleedin E from one pass, someone else is setting up for the next pass.
Eventually, we wore you down and ran you out of E. That's all it was, IMHO. You flew superbly.
Did you film that? I'd love to see it from your cockpit.
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I would just like to say that the only person I've seen do obvious cheating maneuvers is BUG322. It was in a dog fight we got in a few days ago. I hate him and I know he cheated because I lost. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) No way that P-38 could out fly my 109 F-4. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I hope you read this BUG. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) LOL <S> BUG That's still the best fight I've been in seen I got on AH. <S>!
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Wait a minute. I'm not saying someone is cheating here. I'm asking if such a maneuver is normal/possible or if someone is "gaming the game". If the flight model allows such things, well ... do it.
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All flight sim FMs are a bit "questionable" at and just past the stall/spin entry "zone." In AW, there was the old "controlled spin" BS move where you could do a spin entry and recover basically at will after a half turn, or, like a helicopter, stop the spin when you were pointing at your opponent's six as he went by.
In WB and AH, the whole hammerhead/stall turn/snap roll thing is just a wee bit too predictable, and guys "master" a move that would probably work in a Pitts or Sukhoi but would be a lot less "consistent" in a big, heavy, torque-dominated weapons platform.
As good as the FM is, it still doesn't reproduce all the "consequences" of flying the plane at/past the edge of its envelope. So some buffoonery is inevitable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by hitech:
Dingy to gain alt each loop you do not need a T/W > 1, All you need is more thrust than drag for the requierd lift to maintain the loop. A loop is nothing more than a sustained turn as far as e retention works.
HiTech
Yer right and I stand corrected (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Still doesnt seem right tho but then again, I have no baseline to measure that statement against.
-Ding
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Originally posted by gatt:
Wait a minute. I'm not saying someone is cheating here. I'm asking if such a maneuver is normal/possible or if someone is "gaming the game". If the flight model allows such things, well ... do it.
I was giving BUG322 a bad time. I didn't think you were talking about cheating. It was tongue in cheek. Everyone seems to get one cheating gripe at some point in these threads, I was just using it to razz BUG. That fight seemed like it took an hour.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-30-2001).]
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Gatt, I've seen this "instant reversal" thing a few times, too. Both machine going flat out, then the front plane(I've only seen Chog and Niki able to do this) seems to just spin on it's axis and perform HO all within a matter of a couple of seconds.
Each time I've seen it happen, I don't see any appreciable change in the look of the con. In other words, I don't see his wings flare out like he's in a steep turn. The plane just seems to "spin" a 180 out of nowhere.
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Sounds like a net fart to me. I've never seen it. I have fought Tourque alot. He's done some amazing moves but I've never seen this. He just has good aim, very good acm, and the best SA in the arena. But he's still a suckass in my book<S>
LLB OUT!!!!!!
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Maybe they are just pulling the handbrake. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by RebootSequence:
Maybe they are just pulling the handbrake. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LOL!!!!! That's it! That or those Westinghouse air-brakes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I agree with LLB, I have seen this before (not in months tho) where I would be chasing a (insert plane here) and in the next instant the range counter would be decreasing and a hail of lead would follow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Each time a squaddy would ask why i went H2H with him, as I sputtered "I never saw him turn!" net farts euuuuu
JimBear
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Gatt,
Even though the reversing airplane may gain lateral seperation, you may not be seeing it for a couple of reasons. At 2000 yds the nme airplane is fairly small and screen resolution may not be providing enough visual cues that the bandit's aspect is changing. The other reason (and I do this all the time) is that you may be keeping your nose pointing at the bandit the entire time. While there maybe a lateral or vertical change in the nme airplane's bearing (along with the resulting seperation), your own imperceptable control movements could be keeping it directly on your nose making it appear to be turning in place.
Try this next time you are in that situation to verify this may be the case: Use the level mode of autopilot so that you are not making any control inputs. If your airplane is not changing direction it will be much easier to see his changes in direction. First time I tried this I was suprised at how much space the bandit actually used to make the turn. I don't consider this tactically sound but could be good for a test. On the other hand, it may you gain seperation to help defeat a zero degree aspect head on shot.
If this test doesn't show the bandit to be moving to either side or up and down, it could be net lags or other such effects.
MiG
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Maybe thay hit a peace of flying ice and that made em do a 180 so fast. HAY it could happen. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Evil Ace.
When a poor man dies, do not try to revive him.
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HT,
Implement a colored halo over a/c that are experiencing connection problems to extent FEs start just guessing where the plane might be headed. I guess you are able to better quantify the conditions than me...so I won't even try to guess.
Next time folks see something that doesn't fit regular flying it can be visually confirmed that there was something with the net connection. Either the person flying the UFO or the person witnessing this UFO maneuver.
// fats
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Mig,
I'm pretty sure of that and usually my connx is quite good. I seldom see warps in arena. Interesting thing ... no one of the famous F4U pilots is posting here. I think it is a way to gaming the game, every game has some. I dont know, I barely do basic ACM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Jedi,
you probably gave me the best reply (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>!
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-30-2001).]
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I have seen the "frozen plane in space" before, and I'm telling you, THIS IS NOT IT.
This is different. Everytime I've seen someone do this, there was no noticable warping or net burping. This was something more fluid.
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I've seen the same thing, and only in the planes you mentioned. One minute, you are closing on them, the next they flip a 180 without losing E and coming HO at you. It seems like I always see their wings rock back and forth right before it happens too. I always just figured its those late-war anti-grav motors.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-30-2001).]
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I uh... don't <COUGH> knowhatyou'retalkgabout. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously though, I've never seen it, and I'll be damned if I know how to make big blue do it..... Or you'd see it a LOT more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm betting yer seeing a snap-wingover.. you'll never see a guy UNDER you pull this off.. it happens when you chase a guy UP.. he's above you, and you are closing the gap.
Suddenly he's comming right down your throat...
What he does is watch his airspeed and you seperation. Depends on plane type I'd guess but for the P51 the magic number is 140 indicated; over 1000 yards seperation. As he's slowing to this speed on his climb; he's putting out flaps and rolling left, as it hits 140; hard left rudder, full back stick; start cycling IN flaps. Wallah! Reversal; nose down and well inside the anticipated radius. He has completed the manuver with a good-10-15mph controllable airspeed to spare, accelerating quickly and can get a good guns line on YOU well before you can adjust to track him.
I use this manuver when the guy chasing me has dodged the first conventional rope-a-dope and on the second run-up has gotten a little closer to parity on the speed. It's an all or nothing move.. blow it; or if the guy comming up behind you is a good shot, yer toast. It's basicily a one-up; one-down HO, somebody's gonna get "'ol facefull"...
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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I've seen it a few times - particularly with hogs.
Looks to be some sort of high speed stall with a rudder kick thrown in.
Its definitely not a net-connection issue.
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I have before and my follow squadie airborg2 just seen it on AH the first time this weekend . He had a name for it too I might add . Said he sees it in FA quite a bit too , but didn't think they could do it here because of the "don't move your controls" message but he found out differant .
I sent him this link , maybe he will post on it ?
cheers spro
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Hangtime,
I've never seen what I'm describing from Ponies. Never from 109s. Never from Spitfires or La5. From those a/c I expect normal wingovers and hammerheads. And usually I can spot their maneuver.
I'm talking about F4Us for the most part, then FWs, then Typhoons. And not when I'm chasing them up. It often happened flying level or in a shallow dive. It could be a mix of tail slide, quick roll and GOD knows what. Something absolutely different from a normal ACM for sure.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-30-2001).]
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I had Torque do this to me a couple months ago when I was in an la5. He bounced me when I was rtb from about an 8 to 10k advantage. I did I hard left climbing turn to get him to miss his initial pass. He did a chandelle type manuver and came back down on me. I rolled on my back, pulled hard, and he went sailing by over my head. I then rolled back level and followed him on up. I was even slowly gaining on him. At 500 yds the f4u flipped over and we ended up in a HO. Needless to say an la5 does not win HOs with an F4u1c.
(I had it on film, but I've reformated and upgraded my computer since then. This was back in 1.03 or 1.04. I don't quite remember exactly.)
On my FE it looked just like his tail went straight up in the air and the nose came straight down.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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So this maneuver happens when you follow someone nose up, their speed near stall? I thought it was something along the lines that you are following someone in a dive - 300 mph - and the suddenly spins the nose for a HO.
If it's that the enemy is flying near stall speed I wouldn't be surprised of all the strange stuff you see. WB P-38's flip-flop comes to mind. WB Bf 109 ( especially F-4 ) had quite wild charasteristics as well. Chances are some anomalities have crept in to the stall stuff for AH planes as well...
// fats
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If your not closer then 500 yrd (and most likely aren't if he's still breathing) and pull up into one of the better instantaneous turners (F4U's, N1K2, Zeke, P-51, P-38 to an extent) your only helping them get the nose around quicker.
While you pull your nose up on them, they are still coming full circle, at a lesser E state intially anyway. By the time you close the gap to firing range they will have their nose all the way over.
Best way to beat this instantaneous turn is to pull up on them, but not completely to where the gunsight stays on them.
As you pull vertical, maintain an angle. By the time they get the nose over, they will have missed the shot and be perfectly set up for a rope, if the zoom is continued from underneath them (intially underneath, anyway). A moderate G pull with a 180 degree roll, or a normal yoyo will put you right on their back side, if wanted, when passing through their max altitude for the instantaneous turn.
The F4U and N1K2 can pull off that 180 turn with very little E loss, so observation is key when zooming out, as impatience kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
There is no escaping Murphy's Law!
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/tiger.gif)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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What Bloom is describing is a normal maneuver. Bf109 drivers do it very often. They drag you up, then hammerhead when you are near stall and then they come down firing.
I'm talking about a 180deg change of direction when the bogey is flying level or diving slightly.
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Never seen it.
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I'd like to hear from Manadew on this one, as I think I've seen him do this in typhoon once or twice . As you close on him his plane starts to wobble like he's fighting a stall then his plane looks like it departes into a spin maybe ? And then blamo, he's hauling bellybutton away from you in a completely different direction . I've also seen the thing where you're chasing an f4u then all of the sudden you notice that he's coming right at you, with not so much of a profile or sillouette change .
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Looks like no one of the wizards wants to explain us the maneuver. Interesting, indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hangtime said
I'm betting yer seeing a snap-wingover.. you'll never see a guy UNDER you pull this off.. it happens when you chase a guy UP.. he's above you, and you are closing the gap.
Actually, everytime I've seen this, we were both in either a shallow dive, or level. Haven't seen this at all when chasing a climbing con.
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It's pretty bad when the response of most of the regular players when they see a typhoon doing flip flop warp toejam is "hey there goes ManedeW" .
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Why are all these old threads getting punted for seemingly no reason?
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Probably becouse the thing still happens ...
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After flying a few sorties I recognize this for what it is. At 2-3k range (if it is yards) you are looking at over a miles distance. At that range the short distance it takes to turn an aircraft appears very small indeed.
If it's feet instead, you still suffer from the distance squashing the offset, but to a lesser degree.
Simple really.
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Voss
13th TAS
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Originally posted by Suave1:
It's pretty bad when the response of most of the regular players when they see a typhoon doing flip flop warp toejam is "hey there goes ManedeW" .
I dont know what the fuss with Manedew is, i wing with him quite a bit and never seen him do anything questionable, and i spend more time close to him in flight than probably all the enemies he shot down for the last 2 or 3 tours combined.
There seems to be the 'urban myth' (for a lack better words) about manedew's flying style. The truth is, he does things (legitimate moves) in a typhie you certainly wouldnt expect a typh pilot to do, and thats where he catches people out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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heh, no.
90% of the time when i've been on his six, i've been able to tell that it's him. Hard pushes on stick, slight roll, hard pullup, slight roll, hard pushdown, roll, sharp turn, scissors with pushdowns on stick.
It's an effective set of maneuvers (although I'd wager to guess that in real life, the excessive negative g forces would shred the blood vessels in your eyes) but also quite telling; not many do it like that.
With just the slighest bad connection for me or him, it looks like flip flopping.
So, from an opponents POV, I have to say there is a reason he is known for it and that this distinct style is easily spotted.
have you spent much time on his six trying to get a shot Spatula? I've noticed that winging with someone and being engaged offensively with the same person is quite different.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Honestly, I have a good connection, and it is weird indeed to watch a 180deg change of direction without (or with minimal) vertical/lateral separation. A 4,500 Kg fighter at 350mph TAS and 1,500yds ahead of you should always have some turn radius. And the pursuer should be able to notice when the pursued is maneuvering, *before* the HO merge. Sometimes it happens so quickly that you cannot help thinking about something wrong.
I guess it is a net-lag, graphical issue. What I am sure about is that some players are able to game the game. Not a big problem, actually. But it is one of the few things I cant get used to.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-03-2001).]
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After re-reading my post I realized that it sounded kind of harsh . Manedew isn't so much to blame, he is just capitalizing on a flaw in the game . Other people know how to do this move and have reproduced it for me. And for whatever reason, the plane flip flops around instantaneously and comes out of the maneuver going a different direction . I hope there is way that the good people at HTC can correct this . Getting back to the original subject of this thread I've only had an f4u change direction 180 degrees without so much as a silhouette change while I was running it down 900yrds on its six one time back when 1.05 first came out .
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I've never seen this. I'd love to see a film of it.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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It's not distinct, it's not a definable personal style. I see it done by a lot of "LW orientated personality" pilots. Mostly 190 pilots and even a couple of 109 drivers.
It's as "gaming the game" as much as car bombs and flying off the map. Utilising the net lag and delay to confuse an enemy on another computer screen many miles away.
That being said nine times out of ten when I this it's because the bogy is desperate and in it's death throws. It's oinly a matter of minutes before I shoot him down. The only time I have not is because I've run out of ammo. It works not as an egressing typ of manuever, it works as "waste ammo" inducing maneuver.
Hold your fire. let em flop and pop em when they level out a bit - which they must do sooner or later.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Westy, you calling me a liar? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
It's very distinct this. I know when I meet maendew in a dogfight just as I know when i face NathBDP's tiffie . nath uses some techniques easily might force an overshoot in some cases, and combine it with techniques that'll mean you lose yer advantage if you do not push it.
LW personalities? We want names. How else can we compare experiences?
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Not calling anyone a liar. I'm saying I've seen the same thing. I just throttle back slighty and wait till the retarded snoopy dance is done and fire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Names? You know who they are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Alot of them had the habit from WB's or heard of it being done in WB's and have tried to make it successful here too.
As for the sudden reversal of aircraft. I grew tired of agreeing and arguging with folks that there was that "odd" capability a long time ago. Yeager did too.
-Westy
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Stick-jerking is the reason I quit playing the cheap seats in WarBirds.
I call it "UFO'ing."
I agree with Westy on how to handle it, it's just annoying when someone on the alien's side is shooting at you from behind, and you know you would have shot the dude down if his plane wasn't gyrating in front of you.
It also is a red flag as to folks who really don't know how to fly.
If you see someone doing it, just politely say, "No UFO's here, please."
If they act like they don't understand, we just say, "The stick-jerking that's causing spikes, that in turn makes your plane gyrate as if your flight suit were full of bees."
Mk
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I've seen it, I don't know how to do it and I don't want to know how to do it.
I'd like to believe it is entirely net lag or something like that.
I'll just say I routinely see combat loaded fighter aircraft do things that a Pitts S-2B or an Extra 300 couldn't pull off.... and see the same guy do it multiple times in an extended engagement.
Now, is it net lag, pilot skill, gaming the game or what?
Probably "or what". I'm sure lag plays a role, as does the unavoidable reduction in visual clues that a relatively small 2D monitor environment causes.
It's also a skill to learn to do it, no question. Conserving E and avoiding a stall while flopping an aircraft around like a demented jumping bean on crack is a skill. (I think, anyways) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It's "gaming" to some extent because somewhere there must be something in the program that allows a plane to appear to do things that it couldn't do (for very long) in flight.
It's just part of the game. I still haven't learned the quick, easy, 100% foolproof counter yet. But I'm working on it and still having fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I have seen it twice. in both cases I had outturn the guy then chased him for awhile in a near vertical dive at speeds in excess of 400 ias. One was a P38 the other a Hog. They instantly were coming back up to HO me. I've been at this since beta. Twice out of hundreds of chases is hardly worth bringing up.
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Originally posted by straffo:
Have a look to :
http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html (http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html) http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/index.html (http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/index.html)
and yes Gatt I was joking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
ROFL i can do that trick! ROFL!
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well... nash is as good as any in the hog and I've fought him (and lost) lots. He uses a lot of good rudder work and wingovers but nothing odd it's just that he saves a little more e each time till he gets me. The differece is that with nash I am usually pretty close up and personal and can see what he is doing but....
I have seen planes of allmost all types change direction and come back at me but they have all been from 2,000 yards or more when that happens. Probly from closer the turn would not seem so amazing.. Also, I doubt that they have as much speed as they appear since we are now HO.
lazs
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I've seen plenty of that neg-g stuff (I personally think it *sucks!* when people resort to that... You know who you are!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )... But the 180 degree reversal I still have never seen... Not a single time.
I'm wondering... When I'm about to engage a con that's over 2k out, I have my view zoomed in on him so I can track what his plane is doing. Has anyone seen this reversal happen in that view? Or is it just a case of little black dot not doing what you think the little black dot should be capable of?
Someone's really gotta produce a film of this because, it's like... Ogopogo or Bigfoot. We've all pushed these planes to the farthest reaches of thier envelopes, and if an insta 180 degree reversal were possible, somehow, we would see a hell of a lot more of it. In my case, I'll have seen it at least once.
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Never underestimate the advantage of standing on the rudder and chopping when you see zee floppy fish.
Fun catching them wallowing around after their wing starts dropping.
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I'm not specifically addressing the "180 bat turn" although I think I have seen this once or twice (once in a small zoom mode).
I'm talking about when you clearly outmaneuver a guy, end up on his 6 and he goes to a "modified" scissors defense.
I say modified, because I have never read of or seen demonstrated a "scissors" that has the plane in front breaking to one side, flopping around to 6 different aspects in about 2 seconds before finally reversing again.
"He's breaking hi/right! No! low/left! No, it's an inverted push! He's rolling! No, he's diving! It's a Split-S! NO! an Immel!"
All in a flash and all, apparently, without losing much E.
Usually, I just pull into a yo-yo and try to reacquire when he steadies out a bit. Doesn't always work. Sometimes they used the "demented jumping bean on crack" maneuver to get behind me with enough E left to bring the nose to bear. Oops! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
I've never seen this. I'd love to see a film of it.
Leph, I've filmed a couple of these during one engagement where the airplane would shoot off 90 degrees from the apparent direction of flight. I hope the film captured what was seen live. In about a second, the airplane would go from ahead, out of guns range, to 1000 yds at my six oclock heading the opposite way. If timed better or if I hadn't been so close, the maneuver would have put his nose on mine for a head-on.
I think part of it results from the instantaneous pitch rate available in an F4U (and other planes, but the Corsair especially) at certain airspeeds. Its just fast enough to avoid a snap roll with a wing drop and slow enough to prevent a total blackout. The graphics don't seem to update fast enough for the FE's to see this change. Several times I've seen airplanes appear to out run shells on an otherwise good deflection shot. The airplanes didn't actually outrun the shells but as the FE updated the new position of the bandit, the image would slew very quickly then slow down. Other times, the image would appear to stand still before crossing rapidly past the windscreen. Some people have capitalized on this by using it intentionally and some cause it without realizing its happening. I saw a lot of this in tour 14 when people were flying higher and able to convert the alt to an airspeed that would allow them to do this over and over. One tactic against a poor accelerating a/c is to force them to get slow on the deck where they can't use the altitude to gain the needed speed in a dive.
In any case, I'll drag the film out and forward it.
MiG
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Lag induced stick stirring. One well known pilot did it again yesterday and i ended up being killed by him twice in a 1v2 (he dinnae like the odds, so ran til the favoured him more).
First running, then 1v2 (by this time I was determined to get the runner no matter what, just to show im that running doesn't always work. I'd go through acks to gettim if needed), then negative g flip flopping, usually pushing the stick all the way forward and to the left or right, then 180-270 degree instant rolls, microwarps. Very characteristic flying style.
Needless to say; I got a bit miffed. And let it fly on ch1.
Only deaths I have so far is to a flip flopping UFO stick stirrer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Not that it matters, except in the heat of combat. Fortunately most times, the anger stuff wears off within 5 minutes for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
5 minutes is still plenty o time to make a fool outta yerself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-04-2001).]
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IMO, redouts are way too forgiving.
This neg-manouvers are a ticket to death in RL, and here you can practise them with relative impunity.
And the whole blackout/redout should need a tweak. I think if you severely blackout, auto-pilot should not be an option. You should lose control for a while.
Cheers,
Pepe
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well.... thot I might add... The WORST "floppy fish" move I have seen in AH would not even be noticed in WB. I was so sick of the standard floppy fish move by every LW plane in WB. It was pretty much the standard and the only move... micro warps, floppy fish, we have to kick back and realize just how good we got it here. One hour in WB and you will be embarassed to even mention warps or floppy fish in AH...
lazs
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I totally agree...severe blackouts should last 20 seconds (there's plenty of research data to get the timing right) or more with lose of plane control. Severe redouts should also penalize the pilot in some way.
CRASH
Originally posted by Pepe:
IMO, redouts are way too forgiving.
This neg-manouvers are a ticket to death in RL, and here you can practise them with relative impunity.
And the whole blackout/redout should need a tweak. I think if you severely blackout, auto-pilot should not be an option. You should lose control for a while.
Cheers,
Pepe
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I have also seen this flip-flop stuff. It reminds me of a bootlegger turn in a car.
I'll be gaining on a guys 6 and then I'll see what looks like a wing waggle and then we are miraculously HO.
StuB