Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 04:55:31 AM

Title: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 04:55:31 AM

I was wondering how much each of the following planned upgrades will enhance Aces High Gaming Performance?  :headscratch: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?

Actually, looking to see where my meager funds would be best spent  :confused:

Currently Operating System: Windows XP Pro SP3 System Manufacturer: Dell Inc.                System Model: Dimension 5100                BIOS: Phoenix ROM BIOS PLUS Version 1.10 A03 Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.80GHz (dual core) Memory: 3326MB RAM (4 sticks 1 gig each) Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 210 Display Memory: 512 MB

Proposed Upgrades Win 7 Pro 64 bit HPC PSU= Intel ATX12V 2.2  specification. True-Wattage Rated 430 watts with dual +12v rails Dual SATA Support.  110V & 220V AC input switchable. 16 gig DDR3 RAM EVGA 01G-P4-2650-KR GeForce GTX 650 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chalenge on March 10, 2014, 05:07:36 AM

3 monitors on 2D surround if you care to do that. That PSU is junk though.

The real question is what CPU are you planning on?

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: guncrasher on March 10, 2014, 05:09:02 AM

if you are reusing the cpu and mobo that video card is way too much.  if you arent upgrading the cpu and mobo the max ram is ddr2 I believe.

get win7 home premium.  saves you a few bucks.  get a better power supply.

post a picture of what the dell case looks like inside.

if it was me, I would save a bit more money.  replace cpu/mobo and possibly case depending on if dell used proprietary case.


semp

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 05:18:42 AM

That is exactly why I posted here.  I currently have 230 Watt PSU due to the constraints of the Dell Dimensions case that I am working around.  This is what was recommended by the manufacturer I guess.

So, it is not 600 watt or better, what makes it junk...... I need to know because if there are better alternatives that have the same size and dimensions to fit in the case, I haven't got a clue how to find it.

Thanks for your comments and any help is appreciated.  Further I should have stated that I don't have the space or bucks for triple screen, but I am more interested in performance issues trying to run Aces High with the upcoming graphics and possibly tinkering with the mapbuilder.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: guncrasher on March 10, 2014, 05:25:00 AM

chilli when you open the case and looking at it from the front.  which side is the mobo installed on left or right?  this is important because that may limit you on what you can do.


semp

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 05:34:04 AM

Quote from: guncrasher on March 10, 2014, 05:25:00 AM

chilli when you open the case and looking at it from the front.  which side is the mobo installed on left or right?  this is important because that may limit you on what you can do.


semp

Motherboard is located on the left from the front view

(http://assets.overclock.net.s3.amazonaws.com/a/a9/a91699d7_vbattach13583.jpeg)(http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/sc/31403779-2-440-front+back-2.gif)

I will watch this thread closely and try and make recommended changes where I can and update the list for further input.

As it is, looks like the video card and PSU are sending me back to the drawing board.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: guncrasher on March 10, 2014, 05:59:47 AM

ok you have a proprietary case by del.  what that means is that you will have to buy a new case when you need to upgrade.  the only thing you can reuse is possibly the cd rom.

bottom line is you cant upgrade that system.  perhaps you can reuse winxp to hold you up on the next build but that's just about it.  give me a call anyway. perhaps some other guys have some cases, mobo's, ps that they need to get get rid of and might save you money.  later on you can upgrade as your budget allows.

if you know anybody that will buy your current system that's a way to start.   I hope i am wrong but let's see what the other guys have to say.


semp

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chalenge on March 10, 2014, 07:53:06 AM

That's what I have against Dell systems is that they are not upgradeable to any worthwhile extent.

Rather than upgrade now I would adopt a wait-and-see attitude and save back all the money you can for the day when you must update. No one is likely to know what equipment changes will be required, if any, until the next update. Then you might even be able to use that system as a Linux box and secure your local network, or something else along those same lines.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Bizman on March 10, 2014, 11:29:01 AM

What Chalenge says. Save as much as you can until the next update, then build an entirely new rig. If you wish, you can start the new build around your current rig, though, starting with a bigger case, a decent PSU and a good video card. With the GTX 650 and something like a SeaSonic S12II 520 Bronze 520W and a well breathing case designed for the longest videocard available that'd be about $200. I suppose that investment would raise your current fps and eye candy rate significantly.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 05:44:18 PM

Okay, I have the wife searching for the Sea Sonic S12II 520 Bronze PSU and as far as I could see the dimensions are compatible and it is a better bargain, unless the extra juice could harm my current motherboard.

The video card hinges upon the PSU upgrade so I am most likely going to change that also.

I picked up on the 2 x 8 GB memory from another thread, but this is where I need some confirmation from the community. Will my current system with Win 7 ever use the 16 GB to improve Aces High Performance?  Or is this gross overkill?

Sticking with the old Dell with minimum upgrades is the most cost effective way to get me back in the game NOW.  So, to further tweak my questions about upgrades, Bizman nailed the best way for me to gain any real understanding and that would be framerate versus eye candy.

So, to be clear prioritizing upgrades so far has me beginning with my PSU bottleneck (underpowered), video card (low end), and then operating system (use of resources and memory management).  What I am not clear on is where will I get the biggest return on investment  in terms of the above criteria = framerate versus eye candy?

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: caldera on March 10, 2014, 05:51:21 PM

Before you spend a dime, make sure to turn off all the bloatware that likely came factory-installed from Dell.  Check out blackviper.com.

Maybe you can keep your current machine, while saving for an all new one.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 06:06:23 PM

Yep, Caldera, with TC's help and a small app that wardog hooked me up with some time ago, I have my processes down near 15.  Which really has me questioning my RAM decision, since it is currently the priciest.

I have heard that several different descriptions of how the Aces High program uses the computer.  I understand (correct me if I am wrong) the GPU takes on most of the workload for playing the actual online game.

So, here again, why am I throwing my money at RAM for my machine?  Did I miss something?

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: caldera on March 10, 2014, 07:05:22 PM

Quote from: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 06:06:23 PM

Yep, Caldera, with TC's help and a small app that wardog hooked me up with some time ago, I have my processes down near 15.  Which really has me questioning my RAM decision, since it is currently the priciest.

I have heard that several different descriptions of how the Aces High program uses the computer.  I understand (correct me if I am wrong) the GPU takes on most of the workload for playing the actual online game.

So, here again, why am I throwing my money at RAM for my machine?  Did I miss something?

Actually, AH is much more CPU intensive IIRC.  Last I checked DDR2 ram was expensive, though DDR3 is creeping up in price as well.  Personally, I think you should wait until the terrain update before making any moves.  It would be a shame to spend for a minimal, short-term fix when it might not even be needed.  Seems like it might be wiser to build a new computer from scratch, with the power for future overclocking or graphic card upgrades, instead of sinking more money into an obsolete box.

I just built a new system myself and will be parting out the old one.  Maybe you might be interested in either parts or the whole thing. 

Cooler Master CM Storm case
3.0ghz Intel E8400 CPU
8 gigs DDR2 RAM
Corsair 750 watt PSU
Gigabyte Motherboard
Zalman CPU cooler
MSI Cyclone 6850 GPU
Asus DVD Drive

The system is 5 years old but it has been flawless operationally.  You would need a hard drive and an OS and it would be ready to go.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 07:25:54 PM

I stand corrected......  TC, just confirmed that as well the game is more CPU intensive and RAM does help lessen chances of use of pagefiles and stutters or such.

Looking into 750 watt Themaltake PSU, missed the window (no pun) for Win 7 download for today (will try tomorrow).

Researching motherboard to see if memory is compatible with old system.

Also, I should apologize for bad wording in my subject title.  After, some real good input (thank you all), I now see that I really didn't mean how far could updates take me, but rather "what steps should I take to upgrade my current system"

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chalenge on March 10, 2014, 07:54:06 PM

It is my belief that AH is nearly all about the CPU. The GPU is important also, but of course GPUs come and go. It was not too long ago that the Geforce 200 series was so capable, but now they are not even capable enough for PhysX on the latest GPU types. Not that PhysX is even needed for AH, but if you have a 600 series, or 700 series GPU then the 2## GPU for PhysX will only slow you down. For a CPU I think a 3.0GHz CPU is bare minimum, with 3.6GHz (or higher) being the ideal. I use a 4770K at 3.9GHz.

For memory it depends on your OS. For AH you should use Windows 7 64-bit. Do not use Windows 8. W8 has some fanbois around, but the OS is hopeless and not worthy of the upgrade price. 8GB is all the memory you need for W7 64-bit, but you can go to 16GB depending on what else you use your system for. While it is possible to go even higher, it will not be worth the price you have to pay. Regrettably, there are few motherboards that remain stable with four DIMMs in use anyway and you can really pull your hair out trying to get it right.

For the GPU I would go with the 600 series myself. You can still find the 680s around, but they will be expensive. Worse, the best units are the ones with the most VRAM onboard, which pushes the price even higher. But wait! Since we also suggested waiting you might be seeing a new GPU hit the market at any time. You might consider looking at the reviews of the 750Ti Maxwell cards. There is a Wikipedia article on the new GeForce 800 series, but I wouldn't swear to the validity of everything they have there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_800_Series

I'm waiting on Volta myself.

I would put off buying a PSU until you know what the entire system is likely to be. I could write a book on why that is.

I would also plan on buying two hard drives at the least. I run Aces High on a second drive, because when I tested it that way it runs smoother.

Choose a MB that offers SATA III 6GB, and USB 3. USB 3 is even faster than Firewire 800. Read the QVL for the MB you chose and pick out RAM that runs well without overclocking.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: eagl on March 10, 2014, 09:54:01 PM

I wouldn't spend a dime upgrading that system, sorry.  You pretty much need to start over.  $600 would get you a VERY complete and upgradable basic rig.  Read some of the other system upgrade threads from the last month in here, to see what folks recommend.  But you really do need to start over and not waste any money on that rig.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 11, 2014, 12:43:15 AM

A little bit about me  :uhoh

Last August I suddenly lost my boss (related to aggressive treatment for cancer).  Until then he held the trucking contract that barely squeaked out a living for my family.  Out of respect, me and the other drivers carried out the contract to the end of the year for his widow.  As of January, another driver and I went into deep hock to acquire the trucking contract and fulfill about 2/3 of the first quarter of the year.  Every night is a roll of the dice for economic disaster for me and my family, due to the weather and road hazards that we encounter (9pm to 4am every night 7 days a week).

Forgive me for going off topic for the moment, but I just felt that it would help some to understand the items that I am purchasing would hopefully also be useful in a new system build.  But for the present my garbage can of a computer will have to hold on, in which there is no doubt it is able to deliver smooth online gameplay as it is (depending upon my internet connection). 

The only sacrifices to be made currently are eye candies like shadows and detailed terrain.  With help from the community and all of your input here, I am going ahead with my UPGRADE of current computer and waiting at least until I am able to recover some funds with the current business to completely upgrade.

UPDATE:  Thermaltake SMART Series SP-750PCBUS 750W ATX 12V 2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply to be delivered in 4 days.  I will have to let you all know how the Win 7 Pro 64 bit goes hopefully by tomorrow night.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153174
 
:cheers: ChiLLi

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: BaldEagl on March 11, 2014, 01:48:48 AM

My take is upgrade the GPU and PSU and leave the RAM and OS alone. 

At least in the past 32 bit windows applications could only use 2 GB of RAM anyway although additional RAM may be used by system resources.  If that's still true then the RAM upgrade won't help you one bit in game performance unless you're doing a lot of other things with your system while you play.

With the recent increases in GPU RAM this may have changed and if you're getting a RAM heavy GPU it may still be worthwhile to upgrade to a 64 bit version of windows otherwise you'll be limited to 4 GB of RAM (system and GPU combined) with a 32 bit version of Windows but you'll need to make sure the rest of your HW is 64 bit compatible (it may not be).

Sorry but, despite your current economic circumstances, your choices may be liimited and in that case you really don't need to throw money away.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 11, 2014, 02:17:51 AM

Thanks Eagl,

Yes, I agree with your assessment, however, I am pressing on with the operating system for other reasons than Aces High.  Looking into other limitations due to my bucket of bolts, it does seem that I may have maxed out the RAM at 4 GB (about to update my chipset wish me luck - maybe it will give me the capacity that I am looking for).

Again, thanks everyone for the thought and responses.  I am somewhat stubborn when it comes to tossing money to the wind (without a good lap dance at least)  :old:  So, maybe in a week or two I will be able to get into a Saturday Scenario or see some of my old buds in LWMA.

 :salute

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: TequilaChaser on March 11, 2014, 07:41:30 AM

Good morning Chilli,
I know we have talked about the need and possibilities of getting you a new computer case...

I just want you to be aware of the inefficiency that dell case will have trying to dissipate the interior heat buildup inside of it...

That is something to keep as a high priority on your list....

I like your PSU choice! That Thermaltake single rail is much better than that dual rail PSU you listed earlier in this thread... My opinion anyways....

Cheers

TC

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Drano on March 11, 2014, 11:30:29 AM

Quote from: Chilli on March 10, 2014, 05:44:18 PM

Okay, I have the wife searching for the Sea Sonic S12II 520 Bronze PSU and as far as I could see the dimensions are compatible and it is a better bargain, unless the extra juice could harm my current motherboard.

How it works is like this. You have a PC full of electronic components. Those components will require a certain ammount of amperage/wattage to operate properly. That is called load. The PSU size is designed to be able to supply that ammount of load. That's why some are of a higher wattage rating than others. It doesn't force the juice into your components--they draw it from the PSU. If you have an undersized PSU for the ammount of stuff you have in your PC it won't be able to supply the proper ammount of power to run all your stuff and your performance will suffer possibly to the point of either crashing or not starting at all. I have a 1000W fully modular PSU. The idea being it should future proof any expansion I might do. When I bought it I had the idea I might get a second video card and run them in SLI and that would require a lot more power. Keep in mind the PSU drives ALL of the stuff on your PC. Fans, lights, all the hard drives and optical drives. Everything. Most manufacturers have a calculator that will help you to size up what you need. IMO it's not a bad idea to go a little bit over. Surely it's better than going under. Don't cheap out on your PSU as it'll directly affect everything else.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 11, 2014, 12:26:35 PM

Thanks Drano,

Great information.  With that in mind and TC's very patient discussions with me, I am feeling confident that I am on a good track to be  :airplane: in the virtual skies again.

After a long history of playing Aces High, the one thing that I am fairly certain about, is that they have gone through great lengths to make their game scalable to allow for lower end systems.  It has also been my pleasure to find that the community, has so much to offer to those lower end users in terms of tips and workarounds.  In short, HTC support and the BBS have been worth a ton of real money in my pocket instead of that of electronics manufacturers.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: SirNuke on March 11, 2014, 01:20:40 PM

I didn't read the previous comments, but what struck me is the lack of CPU power of your computer, leaving your future videocard largely under exploited. You can buy the GPU and PSU now as you might be able to use them with a different motherboard, but I wouldn't spend any money on RAM that you will most likely won't use for very long.

that seasonic PSU has great value, mine is like 5 years old and currently powers a Core i5 with a R280X and 3 hard drives with no issue.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Bizman on March 11, 2014, 01:38:35 PM

Read through the entire thread after my first comment, and the last one by SirNuke is exactly what I was going to say. Only upgrade those parts you can use in your next computer!

About the eye candy vs. fps question, there really isn't any formula. I suppose you won't lose much by getting components in the same category, both price and performance wise. The price jump between the best and second best is usually higher than the difference in performance. There's lots of performance charts in the Internet, some even with prices. Trying to get the best bang for the buck in the high end gpu section (http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html) and highest third of CPU's (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-cpu-review-overclock,3106-4.html) should give you a good rig for many years.

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 12, 2014, 03:25:33 AM

Thanks Bizman,

Both links are very helpful.  Another update with current upgrade search:  Digisoft sales rep was such a dick about trying to handle an email issue that he actually hung up on my wife.  Let me tell you that I wouldn't recommend that company to any of my friends.  He was such a dick that I took a look at what others had to say in reviews.  Not to my surprise, one site listed them with a 10% rating (looks like they could have gotten worse if they had negatives on the scale).  I saw one comment that said they were selling used previously registered software.  I guess I was fooled by the Microsoft Partners stamp on the website. 

I was very much looking forward to reporting that I had made the Win 7 upgrade today, but all is not lost and search continues.

It does appear that I may be stuck with my 4GB of memory for the moment also.

On the up side, I am very much looking forward to reporting about the new Thermaltake PSU that should be arriving this week.   :rock

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: Chilli on March 12, 2014, 05:38:21 PM

Bucket of Bolts may get tossed after all  :pray

Title: Re: How Far Will Graphics Card, PSU, RAM and Win 7 Pro 64 Bit Take Me?
Post by: lerxst on March 12, 2014, 07:12:30 PM

I had the same problem over the summer,was running a HP setup was already 6 yrs old. I have a micro center right down the highway from me, so i bought a cooler master haf912 case,Asus z87-c mobo,intel i5 4670k processor,i installed a thermaltake 600w power supply,16 gigs of ram,i at the moment still have a nvidia gtx550ti vid card,i cant tell you what a relief it is to just turn the thing on and be able to play with no problems (other than my flying)!! all total i probably spent about 850-900.00 on build