Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on March 31, 2014, 08:13:14 PM
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Hauptmann Heinz-Rudolf Ruffer achieved 80 tanks kills using the Hs-129. Just how effective and useful was this plane? You find more about Rudel and his Ju87-G2 than Ruffer and his Hs-129. Over the years some of our forum elders have painted the Hs-129 as effectively a dog that dog's wouldn't want to be related to in terms of usefulness in our game.
Granted Ruffer was eventually shot down by a VVS fighter after achieving 80 tank kills. In the MA we know upping an IL2 or Ju87 can easily get you killed more often by tanks themselves than by fighter action. Is the Hs-129 any more of a dog than the IL2 or Ju87 in it's ability to kill GVs in our game? It certainty comes with more variations of options than the BK 3,7 mounted Ju87. The last image below shows a lot of AP or carbide cored GV hurt options.
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/Hs129B-2CorteEsquematico.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/Hs129MG17yMK101.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/Hs129B-3comBK37fotosyplan.jpg)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/Hs129B-3caoncorte.jpg)
20x82 (MG 151/20 AP), 30x184B (MK 101/103 Hartkernmunition), 37x263B (BK3,7 Hartkernmunition), 50x420R (BK 5 APC), 75x714R (Pak 40, BK 7,5 APC)
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/FGww2APcarts2e.jpg)
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yes please! dog or not, some of us will learn to love that pug ugly beast.
They had a crazy morter system for those too.
nice diagrams and pics.
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While the Hs-129 used French motors and was under powered I would still like to see it in the game. Look at what a dog the ME-410 is and it still gets use in AH. :aok
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The ME410 is not a dog many vs many at altitude, anything within its front arc 1k out are at risk getting sent to tower with one ping.
Last month I was chased by a P47d25 at altitude, he could not catch me as we where diving to the deck.
I even killed a PZ4 (target of opportunity) during the chase.
Its not a dog-fighter but packs more punch than most planes, I saw Torquila strafe down a cruiser with it, and it can even defend itself with its rear 13mms.
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The ME410 is not a dog many vs many at altitude, anything within its front arc 1k out are at risk getting sent to tower with one ping.
Last month I was chased by a P47d25 at altitude, he could not catch me as we where diving to the deck.
I even killed a PZ4 (target of opportunity) during the chase.
Its not a dog-fighter but packs more punch than most planes, I saw Torquila strafe down a cruiser with it, and it can even defend itself with its rear 13mms.
The Me410 is a pig, it can fly well in one manner: straight. It climbs well enough and is fast enough to catch most bombers at 25,000ft. However, above that is quickly loses steam. It is best used to hunt and kill bombers using either the 50mm, or dual 30mm Mk 103 cannons which I remind people is NOT the same 30mm that is in the Me110, 109K-4, and 190A-8. They have the 30mm Mk 108 which fires a much slower round, meaning far more difficult to use effectively. The 30mm Mk 103 on the Me410 is an awesome platform, don't discount them one bit when compared to the 50mm.
On the Me410 beating a jug in a dive and in level flight? All I can say is: :headscratch:
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Hauptmann Heinz-Rudolf Ruffer
I would have thought some of our luft historians would have reams of info on the man and his ride like Rudel. How did he accomplish so much with the limitations of the Hs-129?
I use the Ju87-G2 in the MA and get wing shot by tanks more often than fighters pick me. In the real war this didn't happen and Rudel nailed them from 200m-300m. Finding the small bio on Ruffer was by accident, and the only thing that attracted me to reading it was the mention of 80 tank kills.
Anyone know anything about his war service and tactics dictated by his dog of a ride? From what I can tell he killed the 80 tanks between March 43 and July 44. Some sources make it look more like the Hs-129 B unit he commanded killed the 80 tanks during that time. That's still a lot of GV killing with single mount pop guns flying near the ground in a shooting war.
From a cz translation: http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/72236/start/-1
Personal machine was a Hs 129 B-2 "Red s" w. Nr. 0364 8.(CA)/SG 1, later Hs 129 (B) "red G" w. Nr. 141966.
Overall, graduated from approximately 300 combat flying and destroyed around 80 tanks.
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Which cannon did he use?
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The Rüstsatz field refit kits were renumbered and some were dropped, and in general, the B-2 planes received the upgraded cannon pack using a 30 mm MK 103 cannon instead of the earlier MK 101. These guns both fired the same ammunition, but the 103 did so at almost twice the rate.
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Bustr brings up an interesting point, and I know this point has been beat to death, but why were guys like Rudel and the thousands of Il2 Soviet pilots who killed so many German tanks able to get so close to enemy ground vehicles to kill them, unlike in our game where if you have even a 1/2 way decent tank driver, he will blast you from the sky with the main gun unless you are diving from a crazy angle, something that in WW2 the tank killing large caliber cannon birds didn't really do.
Is it the icons visible from the ground giving GV's the ability to spot planes and line up faster than in WW2, or something else?
I'm all for adding more L/W and Soviet ground attack fighters, allied ones too, but until something is done to address the balance of ground vehicle main gun effectiveness, it's sort of like a kiss from a cousin.
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^^^^^^ Good post :aok
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I love this ugly duck. And a 75mm stand off ap gun is just what the doc ordered. That being said... I think GV perks would have to be adjusted 100+ perks for a tiger 2 seems high with a multi shot kill any tank with 1 round from a range outside effective wirb range, some what warrants it.
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Someone was kind enough to give me a copy of a 300+ page document about the Hs 129, units, tactics and pilot memoirs. It included descriptions of attack tactics even for the Ju87-G2 since the Hs 129 and Ju87 G2 were under the same tactical command group in Russia performing the same support role.
Against T34 and other Russian heavy tanks the cannon tank hunters never dove in because just like we auger or ram the tank, they had the same problem in WW2. The MK101 and BK 3,7 were not effective at penetrating side armor or turret armor outside of about 100m. But, at 90 degrees to the plate could penetrate inside of 100m. Very often the Hs 129 pilots would hold fire until inside of 100m. The tank crew was simply cut to pieces, not as often an explosion or fire unless the attack was from the rear into the engine or setting off ammo. Tanks were relatively small targets for a guns kill even from the side. So only the best pilots attacked the smaller profile rear.
Guns attacks for both the Hs 129 and Ju87 were from less than 100m alt with tactical limitations. A straight run up for precise aiming at a shallow angle to account for the slope of the armor, the view limitations in aiming the guns, and pulling up before colliding into the tank or snapping the plane's rear end off against the turret. Even with the BK 7,5 the Hs 129 pilots flew in some cases only a few feet off the deck and shot inside of 100m at tanks. There was no jinking around to confuse the commander or gunner on the optics, or circling around at 3k to dive almost straight down to avoid the main gun's highest angle.
The MK101 and Bk 3,7 with carbide core rounds had no trouble passing through the armor of T34, KV-1 and KV-2 inside of 100m. This dictated the attack tactic which was never higher than 100m with a straight run up to the target. The two greatest dangers were Russian ack and small arms gun fire in and out from the target. And not pulling up quickly enough which required particularly well practiced timing to get close enough for the main gun to be effective, then pull up and miss colliding with the tank.
One Hs 129 pilot with BK 7,5 to get at a tank, flew down a building lined town street a few feet above the pavement and killed the tank with a shot inside of 100m. The Hs 129 pilots of WW2 were the A10 pilots of their time. Hs 129 never got above about 3k during the war. Many of their sortie were flown only feet off the ground.
The MK101 carbide core round could penetrate 30mm of armor from 200m. Inside of 100m it penetrated the 78-85mm T34 turret. At 1000m the BK 7,5 carbide core round could penetrate 94mm(3.5in) of armor, but the Hs 129 pilots used it with the same 100m tactics they were trained with the MK101.
The common theme on the eastern front for killing tanks from an Hs 129 or Ju87 G2. Was a straight run at the target to facilitate precise aiming at close range. Russian tanks except for the very rare documented cases, did not swing the turret main gun to face these planes and shoot them out of the air every other pass like happens in AH now. There were not very many of these aircraft, and they would have been pulled from service if tanks could accomplish that feat. These planes slaughtered the tank crews with one or two precision aimed rounds or knocked out the engine. The Russians when they could, accompanied tanks with mobile ack of all kinds because of how effective the German tank hunter air units were.
Very few MK101 or Bk 3,7 shots caused outright fires or tank explosions. The explosion was the result of setting off the tanks ammo or secondary from a fuel fire. And happened more often with the BK 7,5. Early on with the MK101 the pilots didn't understand they were killing tanks because of the lack of smoke, fire or explosions. Even while seeing the hit sprites they were taught meant a penetration strike. The carbide cores of the smaller 30mm rounds penetrated the armor breaking apart into high speed fragments along with some of the tank armor and acted like a metal storm shredder inside the enclosed space.
In all the Hs 129 was a highly effective tank killer once the tactics were established, along with the Ju87 G2 which suffered from a lack of armor. There just were not enough of them to stop the tank numbers the Russians produced and threw at them, even though they were killing tanks in numbers every sortie.
Ruffer and Rudel achieved their kill numbers by shooting from 100m and closer flying straight at the tanks.
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Very few MK101 or Bk 3,7 shots caused outright fires or tank explosions. The explosion was the result of setting off the tanks ammo or secondary from a fuel fire. And happened more often with the BK 7,5. Early on with the MK101 the pilots didn't understand they were killing tanks because of the lack of smoke, fire or explosions.
Thanks for this, Bustr.
But: Based on what you've written here, most of the claimed tank "kills" were really tank "hits." Yes?
- oldman
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By late 43 they had their tactics worked out. Shoot inside of 100m into the side, tank crew ground beef, maybe small fires, maybe ammo goes off. Shoot in the rear, dead engine and fire, eventualy the ammo going off. Ground units verified the effectiveness of this tactic as feedback.
Shoot inside of 100m and the round passes through the armor including the turret. Tanks individual and groups caught without any supporting ack or infantry to throw out small arms fire against the Hs 129. Were eventually destroyed. The Hs 129 engines were vulnerable to small arms fire. One engagement where 40 tanks had snuck through the German lines. FW190 with bombs and rockets began killing the tanks while the Hs 129 spent several hours killing every last fleeing tank after the 190's ran out of bombs and rockets.
The Russians knowing the engines were the weak point to shoot at, would step out of the tanks and use small arms to shoot at the Hs 129 which were flying by about eye level on their gun runs.
Early on the problem for the pilots was the rules for verification of a destroyed tank. They were required to see smoke, fire, or an explosion. Up to then no one knew what to expect from a high speed 30mm tungstin core entering into a tank crew compartment or engine compartment. The solothurn tungsten carbide round alloy cap included a content that upon contact with the armor would sparkle to let the pilot know he had a solid hit. In the beginning when the MK101 was first introduced to the Russian front, pilots shot from outside of 100m. This was hit or miss on the results. When pilots started shooting inside of 100m, it only took 1-3 hits depending on the angle of the round to the armor and the pilot. Eventually with experience, many pilots only needed one pass. Chances are the low level attack combined with the engine weakness to ack and small arms dictated getting the job done with one pass.
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Hs-129 Handbooks
HS-129A-B 5mb
http://d01.megashares.com/dl/7FvNeYy/Hs 129A-B Abwurfwaffe.pdf (http://d01.megashares.com/dl/7FvNeYy/Hs 129A-B Abwurfwaffe.pdf)
HS-129B2 16mb
http://d01.megashares.com/dl/YwY5qp5/Hs 129B-1B-2 MK103Wa.pdf (http://d01.megashares.com/dl/YwY5qp5/Hs 129B-1B-2 MK103Wa.pdf)
HS-129B3 7mb
http://d01.megashares.com/dl/UJDFqqr/Hs-129 B3-7.5 BK.pdf (http://d01.megashares.com/dl/UJDFqqr/Hs-129 B3-7.5 BK.pdf)
Click regular download
:salute
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After reading the attack tactics for both the Hs129 and Ju87 G1\G2. I went offline with the Ju87 G2 against our tanks to see if the secret to the carbide core rounds is shooting under 100yds. I made my attack run at 1000ft from 1500yd out, diving in at 800yd, firing under 100yd. With the panzers and the M4, fly level into their side almost on the ground, fire under 100yd. You make a level approach to these tanks due to the flat side armor. You biggest danger is ripping your own tail off slapping it against the turret as you pull up for all of our tanks. That was one way Hs129 and Ju87 pilots were lost against the Russians.
Two factors dictated this tactic.
1. - Attacking at an angle that lines the rounds trajectory 90 degrees to the armor.
2. - Both the 30mm and 37mm carbide core round will penetrate up to 3in of armor under 100yd. 50yd-60yd was the most effective range for a one pass kill or disabling of a tank.
Shooting Results
Tiger I\II - 2 passes firing from 20 degree into the side under 100yds. Shooting at the change to -200 will result in up to 5 passes. Shooting the turrets is useless.
Panther - same as the Tigers, fewer extra passes.
T-34 Both - One shot at 30 degrees into the upper sloped 60 degree armor from the side shooting under 100yd. 3-4 passes other wise into the side. One shot was the historic number of passes a trained pilot needed to disable or kill the T-34's. It took for myself a lot of effort to achieve 2 one shot kills on both T-34. Most times I ended up hitting under the armor into the track area requiring up to 4 passes.
Panzers - 1 shot side under 100yd.
M3 Both - 1 shot side under 100yd.
I didn't test the 3 new jagdturtles or flack panzers since they have very thin side armor.
These results are very true to what happened in the real war with WW2 technology in force. In our game today you are very lucky any player in one of our tanks will not main gun shoot your Stuka out of the air almost every time you make a guns pass like this. If WW2 tanks could have rapidly acquired and lined up a bore shot at the Hs129 and Ju87 G1\2 like the tanks in our game can. Ruffer and Rudel would have been killed during their first week of sorties in Russia, and these planes would have been pulled from the front lines as useless coffins and tank fodder.
Ruffer - 80 tanks using this tactic.
Rudel - 519 tanks using this tactic.
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Early on the problem for the pilots was the rules for verification of a destroyed tank.
Seems to me they never got around that problem. While the physics may suggest that a hit with a certain shell at a certain range would be a certain kill, I am skeptical that a pilot could be confident of his precise range and angle of fire, especially under combat conditions. They were scoring hits, not kills, and I don't imagine there's any way they could have done otherwise.
Good to know this, I've always questioned Rudel's claims.
- oldman
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I guess Ruffer snuck up on the 80 tanks he destroyed and shot the crew in their sleep....... :rolleyes:
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One Hs 129 pilot with BK 7,5 to get at a tank, flew down a building lined town street a few feet above the pavement and killed the tank with a shot inside of 100m.
Crikey what balls :salute
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The BK 7,5 was capable of killing the Joseph Stalin tank. When shooting into the side of a T-34, it tore a 3ft dia hole. Firing only reduced air speed by 6mph. The unique mussel brake along with an adjusted powder load gave it good accuracy and didn't harm the modified airframe.
Hitech would have to introduce two versions of the Ms 129. A B2 with MK101 or MK103 and AP 20mm, or bombs only and AP 20mm. The MK103 had a higher rate of fire shooting the same ammo, 420rpm Vs. 260rpm, both guns from a 30 round drum. And a perked B3 with BK 7,5 with 12 rounds due to the one shot killing power of the BK 7,5 against tanks.
The B3 killing power would effectively make it a flying TigerII. I suspect an equal perk price would be fair. Can you imagine how the Hs 129 would get picked on by every red guy with a popgun for that?
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The BK 7,5 was capable of killing the Joseph Stalin tank. When shooting into the side of a T-34, it tore a 3ft dia hole. Firing only reduced air speed by 6mph. The unique mussel brake along with an adjusted powder load gave it good accuracy and didn't harm the modified airframe.
Hitech would have to introduce two versions of the Ms 129. A B2 with MK101 or MK103 and AP 20mm, or bombs only and AP 20mm. The MK103 had a higher rate of fire shooting the same ammo, 420rpm Vs. 260rpm, both guns from a 30 round drum. And a perked B3 with BK 7,5 with 12 rounds due to the one shot killing power of the BK 7,5 against tanks.
The B3 killing power would effectively make it a flying TigerII. I suspect an equal perk price would be fair. Can you imagine how the Hs 129 would get picked on by every red guy with a popgun for that?
I see no reason to perk it since a bomb will still be a far better choice for killing tanks. These things will be chewed up by the invisible laser rangefinder equipped Wirble's just like IL2's and JU87G2's.