Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: ELD66 on April 05, 2014, 12:19:21 AM
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/ElDiabloakaTiger/AH2/ahss34_zpsf764f6c0.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/ElDiabloakaTiger/media/AH2/ahss34_zpsf764f6c0.jpg.html)
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Our CO told us to hold our fire so we did. We decided that if that happens again, we are going to use our bombs and hold our fire.
:D
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The lances were Unforgiven. We were stunned when that cloud of 190s shot by and didn't engage us. :salute
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Looks like the wing of a 190. ?? We ran into a cloud of them early into our mission. I bet that was us The Unforgiven in those Lancs. Glad you guys didn't drop in.
:x
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we were on Strict Orders not to engage even though it killed us and some of you guys shot at us as we passed by :devil great fun by all tho :)
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It was a fun event. We figured it was "on" when we saw you guys.
:salute
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just happy ya missed my wings when ya fired :)
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Jg-54 was running with JG-11 at that time and sadly our 109s ran right into that formation. Trigger fingers slipped and much sadness was felt by all.
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Good on all of you to stick to your mission and allow the defenders (on both sides) to see some combat when both your groups continued on to their targets.
:salute
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Jg-54 was running with JG-11 at that time and sadly our 109s ran right into that formation. Trigger fingers slipped and much sadness was felt by all.
Especially by the two men of mine that got killed because you refused to let the Lancs go. If you were going to go against my suggestion and attack anyway...next time try attacking the Tempests...the ones that would have let us go as well...if your trigger fingers didn't slip.
Next time shoot yourself please.
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:O Someone is getting sent to bed with no supper! :rofl
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Especially by the two men of mine that got killed because you refused to let the Lancs go. If you were going to go against my suggestion and attack anyway...next time try attacking the Tempests...the ones that would have let us go as well...if your trigger fingers didn't slip.
Next time shoot yourself please.
Honestly we were flying through til tempests jumped on us as we were passing though lancs.
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Honestly we were flying through til tempests jumped on us as we were passing though lancs.
I wish that was the case, Nate. "We're going to make one pass through the Lancs." - Fish42 - Range Vox. After I repeatedly ordered all ships to let them go. As soon as you guys went in...the Tempests came down to protect the Lancs.
Cost me 2 men and cost the Axis 10,000 lbs of jettisoned ords.
JG54 - The squad that always has so many suggestions to improve the event...You guys better look within first.
I've had horrible escorts before...but last night was one for the books.
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As soon as you guys went in...the Tempests came down to protect the Lancs.
I can confirm that is precisely what happened. I was in the Tempests above the Lancs when the "190s" call came in. We moved straight away to get into the slot between the two groups and immediately came down on the 190s when one of the Lancs was attacked (by a 109).
As soon as I saw the 190s were F8s and carrying bombs with a clear intention to avoid contact I called a knock it off and moved straight back to the Lancs. The 109s buzzed about us for a bit but didn't do a lot.
We didn't ditch our tanks.
Did you guys attack A109. Whoever did even shot up the vegetable patch and the garbage bins. Wasn't anything left there without a hole in it.
<S> Stampf
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I can confirm that is precisely what happened. I was in the Tempests above the Lancs when the "190s" call came in. We moved straight away to get into the slot between the two groups and immediately came down on the 190s when one of the Lancs was attacked (by a 109).
As soon as I saw the 190s were F8s and carrying bombs with a clear intention to avoid contact I called a knock it off and moved straight back to the Lancs. The 109s buzzed about us for a bit but didn't do a lot.
We didn't ditch our tanks.
Did you guys attack A109. Whoever did even shot up the vegetable patch and the garbage bins. Wasn't anything left there without a hole in it.
<S> Stampf
Great call and job of leading as always Dantoo. <S>
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Did you guys attack A109. Whoever did even shot up the vegetable patch and the garbage bins. Wasn't anything left there without a hole in it.
<S> Stampf
<S> D.
No I believe that was Nef's group that hit A109. I had the unenviable task of getting my heavy crates 165 miles behind enemy lines - all the way from Munster to the Antwerp City Strats - deliver our pain - and try to make it back.
Anyone but a blind man looking at the objectives for frame 1 would have seen that due to the proximity of targets, that strikes from both sides would likely cross paths. I spent hours on JG11's Attack plan. I sweated this mission out...even attempted to sacrifice the neighbors cat...
Why do you think I chose 20K for cruising alt? For just that reason - so we would be seen as 'no threat' to enemy strikes crossing our path...
...all for nothing.
Blown by ignorance.
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<S> D.
No I believe that was Nef's group that hit A109. I had the unenviable task of getting my heavy crates 165 miles behind enemy lines - all the way from Munster to the Antwerp City Strats - deliver our pain - and try to make it back.
Anyone but a blind man looking at the objectives for frame 1 would have seen that due to the proximity of targets, that strikes from both sides would likely cross paths. I spent hours on JG11's Attack plan. I sweated this mission out...even attempted to sacrifice the neighbors cat...
Why do you think I chose 20K for cruising alt? For just that reason - so we would be seen as 'no threat' to enemy strikes crossing our path...
...all for nothing.
Blown by ignorance.
Stampf....you couldn't have planned any better. In that situation or even before, if engaged a command would be given and 5 of us would jettison ord to protect our squadron and not attack the enemy bombers. The later command was given on the fly. Well thought out to say the least. And that was on the fly during the heat of battle. Your agonizing brought the majority of us home in good order, considering the position we were in. Impossible imho in that situation.
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Stampf....you couldn't have planned any better. In that situation or even before, if engaged a command would be given and 5 of us would jettison ord to protect our squadron and not attack the enemy bombers. The later command was given on the fly. Well thought out to say the least. And that was on the fly during the heat of battle. Your agonizing brought the majority of us home in good order, considering the position we were in. Impossible imho in that situation.
Thank you very much, Hajo. It is appreciated very much by me. I really could have choked kittens when I saw those idiots attack. I'll know better next time.
There is something wrong with your sig, Sir. ;)
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do you really wish to get into a pissing contest?
because I can quote chapter and verse on JG11. :furious
I wish that was the case, Nate. "We're going to make one pass through the Lancs." - Fish42 - Range Vox. After I repeatedly ordered all ships to let them go. As soon as you guys went in...the Tempests came down to protect the Lancs.
Cost me 2 men and cost the Axis 10,000 lbs of jettisoned ords.
JG54 - The squad that always has so many suggestions to improve the event...You guys better look within first.
I've had horrible escorts before...but last night was one for the books.
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Ya lost me there Kenne. :headscratch:
:salute
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Did you guys attack A109. Whoever did even shot up the vegetable patch and the garbage bins. Wasn't anything left there without a hole in it.
<S> Stampf
That was the CHAWKS and the 412th FNVG. The base was not defended and it allowed us to strafe and completely flatten it.
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That was the CHAWKS and the 412th FNVG. The base was not defended and it allowed us to strafe and completely flatten it.
I have never, ever, in any special event of any kind, seen a base left so wasted. You even shot your initials into the concrete. :D
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I have never, ever, in any special event of any kind, seen a base left so wasted. You even shot your initials into the concrete. :D
Jeez - I attacked three times and watched my target blow up before I could drop. I think I finally hit a fuel bunker. It was like trying to find a Happy Hour parking spot at Hooter's.
Needless to say, the skies were crowded. We were also detected by an outbound allied strike on our run in. I have to say our strike package maintained great discipline. You could sure feel the strain. :salute
Not sure we need to publicly call out a squadron though, with all due respect to Stampf. I've seen mistakes and questionable behavior from just about every squadron in FSO. It is usually taken care of through PM's, however. I think that gets the same results.
Have a mission - stick with the mission - improvise only when you are MADE to. That's a pretty good formula, I think. Especially if every participant does it. :)
Peace - Love - Rock and Roll
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I have never, ever, in any special event of any kind, seen a base left so wasted. You even shot your initials into the concrete. :D
I actually landed there to use your latrine...had some bad sauerkraut. :O No toilet paper so I had to drag my butt in the grass! :ahand
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No toilet paper so I had to drag my butt in the grass! :ahand
Funny you should say that. A couple of times while in the USAF we went TDY to the Luftwaffe base at Jever. The toilet paper in the barracks was wax paper without the wax. We didn't know if that was the standard in Germany or if they just put it out special for us and the RAF squadrons that were TDY there. :lol
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I wish that was the case, Nate. "We're going to make one pass through the Lancs." - Fish42 - Range Vox. After I repeatedly ordered all ships to let them go. As soon as you guys went in...the Tempests came down to protect the Lancs.
Cost me 2 men and cost the Axis 10,000 lbs of jettisoned ords.
JG54 - The squad that always has so many suggestions to improve the event...You guys better look within first.
I've had horrible escorts before...but last night was one for the books.
One pass is not going after them, I personally barley moved my stick to take a passing shot as I was going through had we gone around and avoided them entirely you woulda had even less escort as we would a been even further away, as it is after we went though I look back to see Beardawg has 2 fighters on him and I have one after me aswell, that's when our two groups got separated. One pass as we went by was the call on JG54 vox you can take what I am saying here or you can't either way you can take your self righteousness and well.. I don't have to tell ya what to do with it you've probably heard it before.
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I actually landed there to use your latrine...had some bad sauerkraut. :O No toilet paper so I had to drag my butt in the grass! :ahand
ROTFL...
Great 1st post, Ratsy! I'd have to agree, pm is better than public, but do understand Stampf's agony over the situation..
Was a fun frame....<§> to all participants!
TC
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Unfortunately, I wasn't there so all I have to go on is screenshots, after action reports from squadies and the info posted here.
Stampf, by the screen shots ELD66 has posted on this thread you brought your Jabo group to at least 1k distance from the bombers, do you seriously think that any escort force would have let you do this without interception of some level? As Dantoo posted: "I was in the Tempests above the Lancs when the "190s" call came in. We moved straight away to get into the slot between the two groups and immediately came down on the 190s when one of the Lancs was attacked (by a 109)." It seems that your 190s are what initially called down the Tempest escort, not JG54's 109's. Granted Dantoo also states: "As soon as I saw the 190s were F8s and carrying bombs with a clear intention to avoid contact I called a knock it off and moved straight back to the Lancs." but either his call to knock off happened after your two pilots got shot down or some of Dantoo's pilots didn't heed the call; either way your attempt to lay the loss of your two pilots entirely at JG54's feet is flimsy at best.
Sure, JG54 could have not attacked the lanc's as they flew threw thier formation, and could have instead flown a course to avoid the bombers altogether. Unfortunately you still came close enough to the bombers to call down the escort to have a look which would have likely resulted in the same outcome of your two lost pilots. As it happened, JG54 also made a judgement call to follow JG11's flight path in order to minimize the seperation between the two squads (a judgement call that most squads would also probably make) and this caused the pass through the bombers. JG11 was flight lead, and should bear some responsability for the flight path chosen. You could have chosen to fly a path that would have avoided the lanc's just as easily as JG54 could have.
A few different decisions made by a number of different people could have resulted in a different and more satisfying outcome for both JG54 and JG11; but labeling a squad as idiots and requesting that they shoot themselves next time is uncalled for and over the top. how long do you expect any squads will want to work with JG11 if this kind of tantrum is what they can expect from you when you don't like how the night's events turned out? You ask JG54 to look within; perhaps you should do so as well.
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Unfortunately, I wasn't there so all I have to go on is screenshots, after action reports from squadies and the info posted here.
I was there. Stampf's version is correct as backed up by the flight lead on the Tempest. I heard Fish42 call a pass on the Lancs I heard Stampf call him off. Dantoo saw JG-54 make a run on the Lancs and engaged the 190s as now there was a threat to the guys he was escorting. The irony you're missing is that JG-54 was our escort. If they were going to shoot at anybody it should have been the Tempest not the Lancs. How could you not avoid the Lancs in 109s anyway? We were in heavy 190F8s and had no problem steering clear of them. Fact is the JG-54 flight lead saw what he thought was a quick way to get some cheap kills. No thought of the mission or how it would affect the frame. It could very easily spiraled out of control with both sides fully engaging right there and completely ruining the night for guys on both sides who we flying CAP over targets for both sides. Luckily there were guys like Stampf on the Axis side and Dantoo on the Allied side to keep things in check and herd everyone past the BS caused by your squadron.
Look at the logs, the JG-54 flight lead downed two Lancs. Another JG-54 pilot was awarded an asst on one of them. A third JG-54 pilot admitted firing on the Lancs in a post in this thread. That is at least three of your guys attacking and firing on bombers when they should be protecting the squad they're escorting. Not starting a gun fight half way to the target. A lot of people put a lot of work into these things to make them successful and it only takes a couple of loose cannons to ruin the frame for others. So quit trying to paint Stampf as the bad guy here. Instead of worrying about who wants to fly with JG-11 in the future you should wonder how long people are going to want to fly with you guys when you pull stunts like that.
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I got lost and couldn't find my squad for 30 minutes if that makes anyone feel better.
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I got lost and couldn't find my squad for 30 minutes if that makes anyone feel better.
Slash how many times do I have to tell you to hold your flight lead's hand at all times, and always look both ways before crossing an enemy formation!
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Calling A big BS on you there Shifty. I was there-- what tmetal suggested is correct,jg11 did not appear to make any change in course to AVOID the bombers you flew straight and happened to pass in front of them (close enough to draw fire) We were still at that time trying to close with jg11 and were strung out. The lack of a called for course change placed us directly in the path of the bomber group. Had we changed course to avoid the group we would have been even further from the 190s at the very time the bombers them selves were firing on you and the escorts were diving! Not something you do without orders! Sure the already diving escorts would have left you alone--sure they would! Get real man! And get over it! Flight lead put us right in the middle of an attacking pack of bombers with escorts diving in, when a simple course change call could have avoided the whole contact. Could we have not touched our triggers--sure--- but to say that alone would have changed the out come is conjecture at best, when a group course change could have separated the two sides completely. Some of this is indeed at Stampf's feet. Maybe everyone should --look within--as well as looking from others view points! It's a game for crying out loud! pops out
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Slash how many times do I have to tell you to hold your flight lead's hand at all times, and always look both ways before crossing an enemy formation!
Sound advice. The start of my night did not go well. :D
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I got lost and couldn't find my squad for 30 minutes if that makes anyone feel better.
LOL Slash, I'm always getting seperated from the herd and have to spend the next 10 minutes on radio.
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Calling A big BS on you there Shifty. I was there-- what tmetal suggested is correct,jg11 did not appear to make any change in course to AVOID the bombers you flew straight and happened to pass in front of them (close enough to draw fire) We were still at that time trying to close with jg11 and were strung out. The lack of a called for course change placed us directly in the path of the bomber group. Had we changed course to avoid the group we would have been even further from the 190s at the very time the bombers them selves were firing on you and the escorts were diving! Not something you do without orders! Sure the already diving escorts would have left you alone--sure they would! Get real man! And get over it! Flight lead put us right in the middle of an attacking pack of bombers with escorts diving in, when a simple course change call could have avoided the whole contact. Could we have not touched our triggers--sure--- but to say that alone would have changed the out come is conjecture at best, when a group course change could have separated the two sides completely. Some of this is indeed at Stampf's feet. Maybe everyone should --look within--as well as looking from others view points! It's a game for crying out loud! pops out
I was never was upset so I don't need to get over it. It was exactly the kind of thing I would expect from you guys. I was laughing at you when it happened. Now that you're admiting you guys can't outfly Lancs you see coming way before icon range with 109s and are attempting to blame your actions on Stampf.. Its even funnier. Thanks! :aok
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its a shame i wasn't there, maybe things might have gone differently. publicly beating each other up is going well too i see. lets all take a deep breath and look forward to this Friday and hope things go better. in the mean time, lets agree that things didn't go as planned and try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
have a nice day! <S>
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you are one funny dude Shifty.
I was never was upset so I don't need to get over it. It was exactly the kind of thing I would expect from you guys. I was laughing at you when it happened. Now that you're admiting you guys can't outfly Lancs you see coming way before icon range with 109s and are attempting to blame your actions on Stampf.. Its even funnier. Thanks! :aok
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Plissken North. . . "Alright guys. We are going to turn due . . .uh . . . due . . .ahm . . . due right." :rofl
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LOL Slash, I'm always getting seperated from the herd and have to spend the next 10 minutes on radio.
I think they quit answering me after 20 minutes or so. :D
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JG11: The only Luft squad to ever complain about getting a fight. :rofl
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We were flying F8s at 20K with ord. We were flying just a few mph over stall speed. The Lancs were probably faster then us.
We showed no intention of attacking the Lancs. We flew directly overhead close enough to be hit by the Lancs defensive guns.
We did not change course until attacked by the escorts. Even then we were sitting ducks.
Maneuvering at that alt to avoid them when we finally saw them would have been fruitless and taken as an intention to attack.
We were between a hard place and a hard place. We did the best we could to show no intention of attacking the Lancasters.
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JG11: The only Luft squad to ever complain about getting a fight. :rofl
It's not about getting the fight. It's about following the objective.
Remember frame 3 of February when we found those unescorted Bostons on our fighter sweep? I had half of you guys screaming in my ear for calling you off before you could make a pass with them. Attacking the buffs wasn't our objective, there were defenders waiting for them. All we needed to do was call out their location - and we did. If we had chased the Bostons, we would have been in no position to deal with the Hurricanes that were our objective. Either they would have attacked our scattered gruppe, or bypassed us altogether and attacked the Stukas we were to protect.
As it turned out, our defenders got the Bostons, we killed all the Hurricanes, and the Stukas had minimal interference from what little remained of their defense. All of that success was dependant on us NOT attacking the Bostons, no matter easy it would have been.
Looking for fights comes after T+60
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Devil505 :salute well said sir.
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It's not about getting the fight. It's about following the objective.
Remember frame 3 of February when we found those unescorted Bostons on our fighter sweep? I had half of you guys screaming in my ear for calling you off before you could make a pass with them. Attacking the buffs wasn't our objective, there were defenders waiting for them. All we needed to do was call out their location - and we did. If we had chased the Bostons, we would have been in no position to deal with the Hurricanes that were our objective. Either they would have attacked our scattered gruppe, or bypassed us altogether and attacked the Stukas we were to protect.
As it turned out, our defenders got the Bostons, we killed all the Hurricanes, and the Stukas had minimal interference from what little remained of their defense. All of that success was dependant on us NOT attacking the Bostons, no matter easy it would have been.
Looking for fights comes after T+60
Which is exactly why I posted what I did on page one...but you took to the time to spell it out very well. :salute
FSO is not the MA. Many of the attitudes, tactics and behaviors you find in the MA have no place here.
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For 3 Friday's a month, I get to be a WW2 Luftwaffe pilot. I'm just a pilot, I don't command a squad, I don't lead a wing, I am a lead on a winged pair. I receive my orders. I fly the plane I am assigned, I fly the mission I am tasked with, I follow orders. I do not question anything I am told to do, I follow orders. Maybe after the mission during the debriefing, I voice my opinion to my Wing Leader or my CO.
Much of my enjoyment is derived because I have few, if any, choices. Sometimes the mission is a tough one and I truly do not expect to live. I fly a Luftwaffe aircraft that is dear to my country and our war effort. Not only must I complete the mission but I must also do my very best to bring my plane and myself home, both valuable assets.
I would never consider deviating from orders, even if I did not agree with them, even if I could get more kills for myself. None of that matters. The only thing that matters is following orders.
For 3 Fridays a month, I AM a Luftwaffe pilot.
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I understand if some of the JG11 guys are unhappy with what happened during the frame, and if you wanted to discuss it in private then I would say that's your right. But there is no reason to spend a week bashing JG54 in a public forum over something as small as this, especially considering you guys have certainly screwed up before and left people high and dry while you chased fighters. It is even less acceptable to tell people to shoot themselves over internet airplanes no matter how upset you may be.
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at this point, thanks to those who would rather name names, then send a private message, there may not be enough guys left for jg54 to fly. <S> good job guys, i hope you're proud of yourselves. lets hope you do the same to the next guy that makes a mistake!
personally no matter how bad it was, i would not have named any group or person. its a shame that favor isn't/wasn't returned.
<S>
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You know I intended to make this thread to highlight the discipline of everyone, the Allied escort, the Lancaster's that could of tore the 190 formation up and my comrades who avoided fighting for as long a possible. Hindsight is always 20/20, everything doesn't always go to plan.
Just look at my intentions for this thread and the result.
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at this point, thanks to those who would rather name names, then send a private message, there may not be enough guys left for jg54 to fly. <S> good job guys, i hope you're proud of yourselves. lets hope you do the same to the next guy that makes a mistake!
personally no matter how bad it was, i would not have named any group or person. its a shame that favor isn't/wasn't returned.
<S>
I wouldn't worry about it to that extent. A video game isn't that important and if anyone thinks it is, it's time to take some time off. If your group enjoys flying FSO then why stop?
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Anyone who truly feel their personal strife for glory is worth more than the mission at hand and fellow 'pilot' next to you have a questionable future in FSO. Big egos typically find their fights (both verbal and virtual) in the MA, and that's where they should stay.
If you are not a team player you will have difficulty to play and perform well in FSOs and if you are unable to adapt to being a team player you just won't last. Some certain groups and individual players are really standing out as shining examples of how not to do things around FSOs. None mentioned none forgotten, I believe the FSO community know who they are.
FSO is a friday night trip, but it's not a EGO trip it's a TEAM trip. Nothing beats landing back at base having seen action and landing all crates safely. Those of you who've done it know it, that I'm sure of.
:salute
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I thought this was about some guys with some itchy trigger fingers who dropped the ball a little? JG 54 is an a bunch of ego driven mouths who belong in the MA?
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I thought this was about some guys with some itchy trigger fingers who dropped the ball a little? JG 54 is an a bunch of ego driven mouths who belong in the MA?
No one said JG54.
The 54th has come a very long way over the past couple years in FSO. Dedicated, and easy to work with. A good bunch to have on your side in a tussle. Try em out.
...Not so much like watching paint dry afterall...
<S>
I meant that when I posted it. Most likely I would never entered this thread if Fish didn't start with the cute remark. When I have several guys who have their night ended at 11:25 because what I see as blatant disregard for the event, and they are screaming mad about it...it's my place as their CO to defuse this and voice my feelings.
I can be rough around the edges. I call it as I see it. You can call me names too if I deserve it. I won't quit.
Moving on to Frame 2 now.
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No one said JG54.
Then who?
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Then who?
The first word in his post - 'Anyone'.
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Some certain groups and individual players are really standing out as shining examples of how not to do things around FSOs. None mentioned none forgotten, I believe the FSO community know who they are.
:salute
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why wasn't a possible close encounter seen ahead of time, and a course change ordered? THAT would've been the right thing to do! from what i hear that was never ordered. might want to add that to the "what not to do!" List.
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why wasn't a possible close encounter seen ahead of time, and a course change ordered? THAT would've been the right thing to do! from what i hear that was never ordered. might want to add that to the "what not to do!" List.
Fuel constraints. In a 190F8 with a centerline bomb you can't carry a DT. If you do you lose 500kg of bombs, you can only carry 200 on the wings and that considerably slows the plane down.
I have asked my comrades to stay out of this post if possible. Please do the same for your comrades Jeager.
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really? a 2 minute course change would've made that much difference on fuel? i get fuel constraints, i just find that hard to believe. I'm not looking to get into it with anyone, just wondering why someone would not make a short course change rather then jeopardize an entire mission. its great that one squad is trained to stay put, but everyone is different.
lead to the lowest common denominator not the highest. this way everyone can have fun! then again, it is a game......right?