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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: artik on April 06, 2014, 08:46:51 AM

Title: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 06, 2014, 08:46:51 AM

I collected the data, from Wikipeda about aircraft that:

- Miss from AH2
- Were produced above 1,000 units
- Served in WW2
- Combat aircraft (bomber/fighter/attacker)

I think it is interesting:

Top 10 missing planes are: 6 USSR, 3 UK and 1 USA

Type	Country	Plane	Number
Medium Bombers	UK	Vickers Wellington	11,461
Medium Bombers	USSR	Petlyakov Pe-2	11,427
Fighter	USSR	Yakovlev Yak-1	8,700
CV Bomber	USA	Curtiss SB2C Helldiver	7,140
Medium Bombers	USSR	Tupolev SB	6,656
Fighter	USSR	LaGG-3	6,528
Heavy Bomber	UK	Handley Page Halifax	6,178
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Beaufighter	5,928
Medium Bombers	USSR	Ilyushin Il-4	5,256
Light Bomber	USSR	Ilyushin Il-10	4,966

Top missing planes of each type:

Type	Country	Plane	Number
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-153	3,437
CV Bomber	USA	Curtiss SB2C Helldiver	7,140
Fighter	USSR	Yakovlev Yak-1	8,700
Heavy Bomber	UK	Handley Page Halifax	6,178
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Beaufighter	5,928
Light Bomber	USSR	Ilyushin Il-10	4,966
Medium Bombers	UK	Vickers Wellington	11,461

Top missing planes of each country:

Type	Country	Plane	Number
Fighter	France	Morane-Saulnier M.S.406	1,176
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 17	2,139
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.42	1,817
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-27	3,368
Medium Bombers	UK	Vickers Wellington	11,461
CV Bomber	USA	Curtiss SB2C Helldiver	7,140
Medium Bombers	USSR	Petlyakov Pe-2	11,427

Full Data

Sorted by production numbers

Type	Country	Plane	Number
Medium Bombers	UK	Vickers Wellington	11,461
Medium Bombers	USSR	Petlyakov Pe-2	11,427
Fighter	USSR	Yakovlev Yak-1	8,700
CV Bomber	USA	Curtiss SB2C Helldiver	7,140
Medium Bombers	USSR	Tupolev SB	6,656
Fighter	USSR	LaGG-3	6,528
Heavy Bomber	UK	Handley Page Halifax	6,178
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Beaufighter	5,928
Medium Bombers	USSR	Ilyushin Il-4	5,256
Light Bomber	USSR	Ilyushin Il-10	4,966
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Blenheim	4,422
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-153	3,437
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-27	3,368
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-15	3,313
Fighter	USSR	Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3	3,172
Medium Bombers	USA	Lockheed Hudson	2,941
CV Bomber	UK	Fairey Barracuda	2,607
Medium Bombers	USA	Douglas A-26 Invader	2,452
CV Bomber	UK	Fairey Swordfish	2,391
Light Bomber	Japan	Mitsubishi Ki-51	2385
Heavy Bomber	UK	Short Stirling	2,383
Light Bomber	UK	Fairey Battle	2,185
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 17	2,139
Medium Bombers	UK	Bristol Beaufort	2,129
Medium Bombers	Japan	Mitsubishi Ki-21	2,064
CV Bomber	Japan	Yokosuka D4Y	2,038
Medium Bombers	Japan	Kawasaki Ki-48	1,997
Light Bomber	USA	Vultee A-31 Vengeance	1,931
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 217	1,925
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.42	1,817
Medium Bombers	UK	A.W.38 Whitley	1,814
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Fairey Firefly	1,702
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	Japan	Kawasaki Ki-45	1,691
Medium Bombers	USA	Martin Baltimore	1,575
Medium Bombers	UK	Handley Page Hampden	1,430
Medium Bombers	Italy	Savoia-Marchetti SM.79	1,350
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.32	1,306
CV Bomber	Japan	Nakajima B6N	1,268
Medium Bombers	German	Junkers Ju 188	1,234
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-44	1,227
Fighter	France	Morane-Saulnier M.S.406	1,176
Heavy Bomber	German	Heinkel He 177	1,169
Fighter	Italy	Macchi C.200	1,153
Medium Bombers	Japan	Yokosuka P1Y	1,102
Fighter	Japan	Mitsubishi A5M	1,094
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Boulton Paul Defiant	1,064
Medium Bombers	Japan	Mitsubishi G3M	1,048

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 06, 2014, 08:55:10 AM

Sorted By Country>Number

Type	Country	Plane	Number
Fighter	France	Morane-Saulnier M.S.406	1,176
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 17	2,139
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 217	1,925
Medium Bombers	German	Junkers Ju 188	1,234
Heavy Bomber	German	Heinkel He 177	1,169
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.42	1,817
Medium Bombers	Italy	Savoia-Marchetti SM.79	1,350
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.32	1,306
Fighter	Italy	Macchi C.200	1,153
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-27	3,368
Light Bomber	Japan	Mitsubishi Ki-51	2385
Medium Bombers	Japan	Mitsubishi Ki-21	2,064
CV Bomber	Japan	Yokosuka D4Y	2,038
Medium Bombers	Japan	Kawasaki Ki-48	1,997
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	Japan	Kawasaki Ki-45	1,691
CV Bomber	Japan	Nakajima B6N	1,268
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-44	1,227
Medium Bombers	Japan	Yokosuka P1Y	1,102
Fighter	Japan	Mitsubishi A5M	1,094
Medium Bombers	Japan	Mitsubishi G3M	1,048
Medium Bombers	UK	Vickers Wellington	11,461
Heavy Bomber	UK	Handley Page Halifax	6,178
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Beaufighter	5,928
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Blenheim	4,422
CV Bomber	UK	Fairey Barracuda	2,607
CV Bomber	UK	Fairey Swordfish	2,391
Heavy Bomber	UK	Short Stirling	2,383
Light Bomber	UK	Fairey Battle	2,185
Medium Bombers	UK	Bristol Beaufort	2,129
Medium Bombers	UK	A.W.38 Whitley	1,814
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Fairey Firefly	1,702
Medium Bombers	UK	Handley Page Hampden	1,430
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Boulton Paul Defiant	1,064
CV Bomber	USA	Curtiss SB2C Helldiver	7,140
Medium Bombers	USA	Lockheed Hudson	2,941
Medium Bombers	USA	Douglas A-26 Invader	2,452
Light Bomber	USA	Vultee A-31 Vengeance	1,931
Medium Bombers	USA	Martin Baltimore	1,575
Medium Bombers	USSR	Petlyakov Pe-2	11,427
Fighter	USSR	Yakovlev Yak-1	8,700
Medium Bombers	USSR	Tupolev SB	6,656
Fighter	USSR	LaGG-3	6,528
Medium Bombers	USSR	Ilyushin Il-4	5,256
Light Bomber	USSR	Ilyushin Il-10	4,966
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-153	3,437
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-15	3,313
Fighter	USSR	Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3	3,172

Sorted By Type>Number

Type	Country	Plane	Number
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-153	3,437
Biplane Fighter	USSR	Polikarpov I-15	3,313
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.42	1,817
Biplane Fighter	Italy	Fiat CR.32	1,306
CV Bomber	USA	Curtiss SB2C Helldiver	7,140
CV Bomber	UK	Fairey Barracuda	2,607
CV Bomber	UK	Fairey Swordfish	2,391
CV Bomber	Japan	Yokosuka D4Y	2,038
CV Bomber	Japan	Nakajima B6N	1,268
Fighter	USSR	Yakovlev Yak-1	8,700
Fighter	USSR	LaGG-3	6,528
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-27	3,368
Fighter	USSR	Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3	3,172
Fighter	Japan	Nakajima Ki-44	1,227
Fighter	France	Morane-Saulnier M.S.406	1,176
Fighter	Italy	Macchi C.200	1,153
Fighter	Japan	Mitsubishi A5M	1,094
Heavy Bomber	UK	Handley Page Halifax	6,178
Heavy Bomber	UK	Short Stirling	2,383
Heavy Bomber	German	Heinkel He 177	1,169
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Beaufighter	5,928
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Bristol Blenheim	4,422
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Fairey Firefly	1,702
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	Japan	Kawasaki Ki-45	1,691
Heavy Fighter/Attacker	UK	Boulton Paul Defiant	1,064
Light Bomber	USSR	Ilyushin Il-10	4,966
Light Bomber	Japan	Mitsubishi Ki-51	2385
Light Bomber	UK	Fairey Battle	2,185
Light Bomber	USA	Vultee A-31 Vengeance	1,931
Medium Bombers	UK	Vickers Wellington	11,461
Medium Bombers	USSR	Petlyakov Pe-2	11,427
Medium Bombers	USSR	Tupolev SB	6,656
Medium Bombers	USSR	Ilyushin Il-4	5,256
Medium Bombers	USA	Lockheed Hudson	2,941
Medium Bombers	USA	Douglas A-26 Invader	2,452
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 17	2,139
Medium Bombers	UK	Bristol Beaufort	2,129
Medium Bombers	Japan	Mitsubishi Ki-21	2,064
Medium Bombers	Japan	Kawasaki Ki-48	1,997
Medium Bombers	German	Dornier Do 217	1,925
Medium Bombers	UK	A.W.38 Whitley	1,814
Medium Bombers	USA	Martin Baltimore	1,575
Medium Bombers	UK	Handley Page Hampden	1,430
Medium Bombers	Italy	Savoia-Marchetti SM.79	1,350
Medium Bombers	German	Junkers Ju 188	1,234
Medium Bombers	Japan	Yokosuka P1Y	1,102
Medium Bombers	Japan	Mitsubishi G3M	1,048

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: colmbo on April 06, 2014, 10:29:13 AM

It looks like the Vultee A-31 did not see action.  The A-35 did see some action with the British.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 06, 2014, 10:44:10 AM

While some of those do need to be added, you have to also consider what they offer for the work needed to add them and how passable a stand in an existing aircraft in the game is.

For example, the Lancaster and the Halifax offer very similar performance and capabilities, the Lancaster being very slightly superior.  Adding a heavy bomber is a lot of work for HTC and that being the case it is really hard to justify the Halifax in light of how suitable the existing Lancaster is as a stand in for it.

There are many other examples in there that follow a similar pattern.


The other thing to consider is how useful would it be.  The Fairey Battle only saw service in the Battle of France where it was hacked from the skies mercilessly by the Germans.  That is not a lot of scenarios for it considering it would be almost usless in the MA and that the Japanese B5N2 is a fair stand in for it in terms of speed, payload and durability.


Production numbers are also not the only arbiter.  It is possible for an aircraft with lower production, such as the 140 or so H8Ks, to have seen more combat and heavier use than something with production in the thousands.

You seem to have left off flying boats...

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: morfiend on April 06, 2014, 03:49:05 PM

 I didnt see a single Canadian plane in the lot! :devil






     :salute

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 06, 2014, 04:12:44 PM

Things that would be simple:

- Yak-1 - it is must to have plane for all Eastern front Early-Middle war setups - it is just a variant of Yak
- LaGG-3 - is variant of La - should be simple as well and important for Estern front setups
- Pe-2 - is probably the most important single missing USSR aircraft
- Beaufighter - it is just classics and good attacker

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 06, 2014, 05:16:21 PM

Yak-1 and LaGG-3 would reuse some assets, but I don't see the Pe-2 or Beaufighter as being any easier for HTC to add than any other aircraft of their size.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: 715 on April 06, 2014, 05:37:48 PM

Wasn't the LaGG-1 and/or -3 called the "morticians mate" and "comrades varnished coffin"  i.e. it was a terrible plane that was hard to fly and enormously outmatched by the Me109 and that lead to the quick death of its pilots?

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 06, 2014, 06:23:03 PM

Quote from: 715 on April 06, 2014, 05:37:48 PM

Wasn't the LaGG-1 and/or -3 called the "morticians mate" and "comrades varnished coffin"  i.e. it was a terrible plane that was hard to fly and enormously outmatched by the Me109 and that lead to the quick death of its pilots?

"Guaranteed Varnished Coffin" is what I heard.  Because it was largely wooden.

And yes, it was heavily out matched.  That said, the LaGG-3 and Yak-1 were the core of the first effective VVS resistance to the Luftwaffe in the east and should both be in game for that reason, even if it is a hard fight for them.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: -aper- on April 06, 2014, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: 715 on April 06, 2014, 05:37:48 PM

Wasn't the LaGG-1 and/or -3 called the "morticians mate" and "comrades varnished coffin"  i.e. it was a terrible plane that was hard to fly and enormously outmatched by the Me109 and that lead to the quick death of its pilots?

Yak-1 vs LaGG-3 is like Albatros D.V vs Pfalz D.III.  Russian pilots criticized the LaGG's excessive weight, bad acceleration, and low rate of climb compared to the Yak-1. On the other hand LaGG-3 was more durable, it could dive safely at much higher speeds and could withstand much higher g-loadings.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Widewing on April 06, 2014, 06:55:23 PM

There's a few missing on your list that were significant in combat.

Some examples?

We don't have the F6F-3. We have the F6F-5, modeled to perform like the -3.

We don't have the P-38H.

We don't have the P-36/Hawk 75.

We don't have the Seafire MK.III

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Saxman on April 06, 2014, 07:35:16 PM

Quote from: Widewing on April 06, 2014, 06:55:23 PM

There's a few missing on your list that were significant in combat.

Some examples?

We don't have the F6F-3. We have the F6F-5, modeled to perform like the -3.

F4F-3 is the same case. We have the F4F-4 with a four-gun package option, but that package makes it an FM-1 which is still an entirely different animal than the F4F-3 (longer range, but also lighter).

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 07, 2014, 02:03:02 AM

Quote from: Widewing on April 06, 2014, 06:55:23 PM

We don't have the F6F-3. We have the F6F-5, modeled to perform like the -3.
We don't have the P-38H.
We don't have the Seafire MK.III

It is a subtype - I didn't include subtypes in the list. (at least according by not having separate arcile) - i.e. if the subtype isn't that significantly different - for F6F - there is a single article and no production numbers for subtypes.
Also I don't have data for Seafire III an

Now about P-38H, besides being subversion (also important one), also there were 601 P-38H produced - goes below the threshold I mentioned.

Quote from: Widewing on April 06, 2014, 06:55:23 PM

We don't have the P-36/Hawk 75.

You are right about that, according to wiki:

Number built   215 (P-36) plus 900 export Hawk 75 variants

So totally: 1115, but didn't noticed that there were two numbers that should be added.

Quote

...F4F-3 is the same case...

Don't we have enough US planes?

Take a look on the list: 5 out of 47 are US planes, and none of the missing major variants are fighters, 1 CV bomber and 4 bombers - which is quite low if you compare them to 13 UK, 9 Russian and 11 Japanese?

BTW I forgot to mention the Meteor that 3,947 were produced but I didn't written it into the list because it major production was post war - on the other hand many in there list were not produced during the war as were outdated.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 07, 2014, 02:11:33 AM

Yak-1 and LaGG-3 are both just as much subtypes as the F6F-3 and Seafire Mk III are.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 07, 2014, 02:44:52 AM

Quote from: Karnak on April 07, 2014, 02:11:33 AM

Yak-1 and LaGG-3 are both just as much subtypes as the F6F-3 and Seafire Mk III are.

Not exactly.

See, the USSR naming nomenclature is different. The Yak - is just a design bureau (+/- a firm like Grumman or Vought) now the number changes the major variant.

In same way you can call Grumman F4F Wildcat, Grumman F6F Hellcat in soviet naming as Grumman-4 and Grumman-6 - when the Grumman 6 is development of Grumman 4.

Also take a look on LaGG-3 and La-5 - they are very different - also they share same basic design they have entirely different engine also they were designed by different bureaus.

On the other hand A-36 and P-51 which are basically the same plane with small modifications.

In any case it is easy to talk what is variant and what isn't - it would be endless discussion with no correct solution.

When I created this table I used simple rule - do they have a separate Wikipedia article or not?
It by no means perfect as for example there is a one article for 109 and Spitfire.

But... it gives statistically "independent" point of view such that my personal opinion wouldn't interfere with the data.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 07, 2014, 07:24:58 AM

Quote from: artik on April 07, 2014, 02:44:52 AM

Not exactly.

See, the USSR naming nomenclature is different. The Yak - is just a design bureau (+/- a firm like Grumman or Vought) now the number changes the major variant.

In same way you can call Grumman F4F Wildcat, Grumman F6F Hellcat in soviet naming as Grumman-4 and Grumman-6 - when the Grumman 6 is development of Grumman 4.

No.  Just because the Soviet Union used a different naming system doesn't change the actual relationship of the aircraft.  The Yak-3 is a development of the Yak-1  It is not an entirely new design as the F6F is compared to the F4F.

Quote

Also take a look on LaGG-3 and La-5 - they are very different - also they share same basic design they have entirely different engine also they were designed by different bureaus.

On the other hand A-36 and P-51 which are basically the same plane with small modifications.

The La-5 is the LaGG-3 with a new engine.  From the firewall back they are extremely similar.  The design bureau was the same one too, just a different name. The "La" part of "LaGG" is the same "La" as the "La" in "La-5".  The P-51A to P-51B is only superficially less of a change because its shape didn't change as much due to going from an inline engine to an inline engine as compared to the LaGG-3 going from an inline engine to a radial engine.  The Ki-61-II to Ki-100 is another example where an airframe was re-engined.  All three examples are still the same base aircraft, regardless of the choice to change names or not.  A more radical change was the complete redesign of the Spitfire's wings which was originally going to be called something else, but the RAF ended up just calling in a Spitfire F.20.  The Spitfire F.20 has much less in common with the Spitfire Mk XVI than the La-5 has with the LaGG-3.  Another example is the N1K1, N1K1-J and N1K2-J, all of which would be considered completely different aircraft under the Italian, Russian or Japanese Army systems, yet going by the base name with no consideration they are all the same.

Quote

In any case it is easy to talk what is variant and what isn't - it would be endless discussion with no correct solution.

Not at all.  It is pretty obvious which aircraft are developments of other aircraft.  It is unreasonable to punish the Americans, British, Germans and Japanese Navy for being more prone naming aircraft as new marks of older aircraft compared to the Italian, Russian and Japanese Army's tendency to rename such as completely new aircraft.  So, actual consistency would mean that either missing significant marks of existing aircraft ought to be considered or that the Yak-1, LaGG-5 and C.200 ought to be removed due to simply being versions of aircraft already in AH, which they are.  A discussion of three aircraft is not endless.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: SmokinLoon on April 07, 2014, 07:37:02 AM

I've vouched for the Wellington, Pe-2, and the Yak-1/MiG-3 for quite awhile now.  ESPECIALLY the Wellington.   :aok

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 07, 2014, 08:18:17 AM

Quote from: Karnak on April 07, 2014, 07:24:58 AM

Not at all.  It is pretty obvious which aircraft are developments of other aircraft...

If so:

- Is Ta-152 is different from 190s? It is actually based on Dora
- Is 190A and 190D are different - just installed inline engine?
- So maybe we need to split 190As and 190D/Ta152 instead Fw190/Ta152 or all are the same?
- Is La-7 and La-9 same or different aircraft one all metal other all wooden - but it still continues La-7... So if LaGG-3 is same as La-7 than LaGG-3 and La-9 are the same?
- Now if Yak-1 and Yak-9/3 are the same than the same should be Yak-15, it is just an engine refit.

Where do you split the Spitfire versions between Spit 1 and Spit F.20? They all evolve from one to another.

Bottom line - it is endless discussion.

What is probably more correctly is to split some of the "variants" that passed though entire WW2 being a one plane but actually doing a major leap.

The only planes that I can think by your definition are "the same" are Spitfires, 109s, Yaks, 109s.

Note USAF tended to replace lines than upgrade existing variants: P-40 and F4F were removed by the middle of the war. The P-38 entered the European theater but left till the end of 1944 and were replaced with P-51D.

If you bring me data about major variants of Spitfire & 109 I think it would be better to split them - but all major variants are already in the AH on the other hand. If you have information about 109 or Spit major variant that was produced >1000 and not in AH I'll gladly add it. But again - it isn't back and white - there are lots of grays.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Saxman on April 07, 2014, 08:49:13 AM

Quote from: artik on April 07, 2014, 02:03:02 AM

Take a look on the list: 5 out of 47 are US planes, and none of the missing major variants are fighters.

The F4F-3 WAS a major variant. If there was a Wildcat flown by the Marines in 1942, it was most likely either a -3 or -3A. Marine squadrons didn't start getting the -4 in significant numbers until after Guadalcanal, so the -3s saw very heavy combat in 1942.

Not having the F4F-3 is a lot like not having the Spitfire Mk.I

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 07, 2014, 09:08:16 AM

Quote from: Saxman on April 07, 2014, 08:49:13 AM

The F4F-3 WAS a major variant. If there was a Wildcat flown by the Marines in 1942, it was most likely either a -3 or -3A. Marine squadrons didn't start getting the -4 in significant numbers until after Guadalcanal, so the -3s saw very heavy combat in 1942.

Not having the F4F-3 is a lot like not having the Spitfire Mk.I

Not exactly - F4F-4 and -3 are very similar and replaceable in any SEA events. They have very close performance - also the earlier -3 variant was marginally better. On the other hand if you take Spit 1 and Spit 5 - it is entirely different story.

Also once again - there are many options to "Join/Dis-join" variants and tell we have it or not.

I collected some data - it looks interesting whether you believe it or think some stuff is misrepresented - I don't claim 100% accuracy.

However, what is clear - US planes are best represented in all branches in AH2 while some non-US are poorly represented like USSR fighters & bombers and UK bombers (less knowledge about Japanese)

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Megalodon on April 07, 2014, 01:29:47 PM

Quote from: artik on April 07, 2014, 09:08:16 AM

However, what is clear - US planes are best represented in all branches in AH2 while some non-US are poorly represented like USSR fighters & bombers and UK bombers

 Like the French and others  :old:

 None,

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: bortas1 on April 07, 2014, 04:22:34 PM

 :salute gees artik you must have been really bored to do all that.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Widewing on April 07, 2014, 11:54:40 PM

Quote from: artik on April 07, 2014, 09:08:16 AM

Not exactly - F4F-4 and -3 are very similar and replaceable in any SEA events. They have very close performance - also the earlier -3 variant was marginally better. On the other hand if you take Spit 1 and Spit 5 - it is entirely different story.

There are very significant differences between the F4F-3 and F4F-4. The -3 didn't have folding wings, and had just four guns. These factors, along with the fleet wide removal of flotation gear, led to much less weight (440 lb, or 8%). Max speed for the -3 was 335 mph. The -4 could manage only 320 mph. Rate of climb for the -3 was 3,300 ft/min at sea level. The -4 could do not better than 2,500 ft/min. In any SEA events, the FM-2 would be a better substitute for the F4F-3 than the F4F-4 would be.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Saxman on April 08, 2014, 01:05:21 AM

Quote from: Widewing on April 07, 2014, 11:54:40 PM

There are very significant differences between the F4F-3 and F4F-4. The -3 didn't have folding wings, and had just four guns. These factors, along with the fleet wide removal of flotation gear, led to much less weight (440 lb, or 8%). Max speed for the -3 was 335 mph. The -4 could manage only 320 mph. Rate of climb for the -3 was 3,300 ft/min at sea level. The -4 could do not better than 2,500 ft/min. In any SEA events, the FM-2 would be a better substitute for the F4F-3 than the F4F-4 would be.

That's exactly why I'd want to see the F4F-3 added when the Wildcats get remodeled.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: hlbly on April 08, 2014, 01:33:46 AM

Quote from: Karnak on April 07, 2014, 02:11:33 AM

Yak-1 and LaGG-3 are both just as much subtypes as the F6F-3 and Seafire Mk III are.

The Lagg-3 is very far from a sub type. No more than the La-7 is a sub type of La-5. The Lagg-3 had an inline engine that was under powered for the airframe. It never offered any effective resistance to the Luftwaffe.Rather than some of the planes that would be hanger queens. I would prefer lower yet numerically significant fighters . The Raiden and De-520 come to mind as examples of planes that would see use.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: R 105 on April 08, 2014, 07:27:04 AM

  Here are a few more planes made in large quantity and not in the game. 1.Italy-S.M.79-1 bomber. 2.Germany JU-52 transport. 3.Germany HS-123 ground attack. :aok

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: bozon on April 08, 2014, 07:57:22 AM

I don't know about this silly subtype/new model argument... To me, Artik's list proves one thing beyond doubt - we absolutely need the Bristol Beaufighter!.

...even if Karnak and Widewing say it is a subtype of the Beaufort, that we don't have.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 08, 2014, 08:02:08 AM

Quote from: hlbly on April 08, 2014, 01:33:46 AM

Rather than some of the planes that would be hanger queens. I would prefer lower yet numerically significant fighters . The Raiden and De-520 come to mind as examples of planes that would see use.

See, at LW MA LaGG-3, MiG-3 and Yak-1 would be hangar queens, however they are needed for historical events.

The Raiden and De-520 are both produced less than 1,000 so not entered the list

Quote from: R 105 on April 08, 2014, 07:27:04 AM

 Here are a few more planes made in large quantity and not in the game. 1.Italy-S.M.79-1 bomber. 2.Germany JU-52 transport. 3.Germany HS-123 ground attack. :aok

- SM-79 - actually included in the list
- Ju-52 - transport and utility - not included in general
- Hs-123 - only around 250 were produced (below the threshold)

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 08, 2014, 08:05:07 AM

Quote from: bozon on April 08, 2014, 07:57:22 AM

I don't know about this silly subtype/new model argument... To me, Artik's list proves one thing beyond doubt - we absolutely need the Bristol Beaufighter!.

+1

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 08, 2014, 10:42:04 AM

Quote from: hlbly on April 08, 2014, 01:33:46 AM

The Lagg-3 is very far from a sub type. No more than the La-7 is a sub type of La-5. The Lagg-3 had an inline engine that was under powered for the airframe. It never offered any effective resistance to the Luftwaffe.Rather than some of the planes that would be hanger queens. I would prefer lower yet numerically significant fighters . The Raiden and De-520 come to mind as examples of planes that would see use.

And yet he left the N1K1-J off of his list despite it being far more different from the N1K2-J than the LaGG-5 is from an La-5FN.  He is letting simplistic naming scheme differences override actual engineering differences.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: artik on April 08, 2014, 11:03:48 AM

@Karnak...


Indeed, it looks like N1K1-J should be considered an independent plane... There were 1,435 N1K produced, of which 428 N1K2 and 5 N1K3... so remaining 1,002 > 1,000.

Now problem about it.

However... I really don't understand what is the buzz about. I didn't pretend the list to be 100% accurate, some stuff probably wrong and some planes should be split into sub-variants. For some it is easy to draw a line like N1K1 and N1K2, for others it is harder. For some data is ready for some you need to spend hours to collect.

I suggest:

1. You are welcome to collect the accurate data from different source (including mine) and fix it
2. You are welcome to join/unjoin models/variants as you think it is correct.
3. Present updated data to let us complain about models that your merged or planes missing.

I did in a way that was relatively easy to me, I think this data is interesting to the community weather it is 100% accurate or misleading in some aspects.

You are welcome to create your own lists - it would be interesting as well and I'll gladly look at it, discuss it.

Have a nice day.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: pembquist on April 09, 2014, 12:35:30 AM

Has anybody mentioned the pv-1, don't know about production numbers but flying out of the Aleutians for Japan deserves some respect.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: bangsbox on April 09, 2014, 03:38:38 AM

Ummmm PBY 3000+ made and sunk 100000 tons of shipping also damaged 10 war ships. And she is so sexy :O :banana:

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: pembquist on April 09, 2014, 09:44:35 AM

Quote from: bangsbox on April 09, 2014, 03:38:38 AM

Ummmm PBY 3000+ made and sunk 100000 tons of shipping also damaged 10 war ships. And she is so sexy :O :banana:

And puts out fires too.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Rich46yo on April 09, 2014, 01:04:56 PM

Ive kinda changed my mind about flying boats. If they could resupp a CV group that would be a good thing, even better, if there was a well modeled convoy system in the game that they could attack and have some impact that way. Maybe delivering troops another mission.

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: MiloMorai on April 09, 2014, 10:25:27 PM

If this 1000 produced number was not reached with a/c in the game, should they be removed?

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Karnak on April 09, 2014, 10:28:41 PM

Quote from: MiloMorai on April 09, 2014, 10:25:27 PM

If this 1000 produced number was not reached with a/c in the game, should they be removed?

He wasn't insinuating that.  He was just putting a reasonable floor on his workload. 

Title: Re: Heavily Produced WW2 Aircraft Missing in AH2
Post by: Gray on April 11, 2014, 02:13:36 PM

Ive kinda changed my mind about flying boats. If they could resupp a CV group that would be a good thing, even better, if there was a well modeled convoy system in the game that they could attack and have some impact that way. Maybe delivering troops another mission


Now, there's an idea...... :O