Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: miko2d on March 22, 2000, 12:07:00 PM
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Hi guys,
I am going to suggest a solution that is a departure from realism. Usually I am against such solutions but in this case it could be used to offset the two huge unrealistic and unfixable things inherently present in the game.
1. Head-On frequency. Pilots in RL are much more concerned about staying alive and not letting enemy shoot at them then shooting at the enemy. It does not matter that the enemy plane may be lighter armed or armored. One single bullet through the windshield travelling at combined speed of both planes plus it's own velocity is enough to ruin your day. And the enemy does not even have to aim, because you are putting yourself right into his bulls-eye.
Yes, there were occasional or desperation-driven Head-Ons, but blowing a 10K altitude advantage just to HO instead of taking 20 seconds to outmaneuver the enemy? Incredible.
The reason for this is the fact that FOD (fear-of-death) cannot be simulated in the main arena. Killing is a huge inconvinience in RL and the actual reason why the war is conducted. Making a war sim without a large penalty for dying is extremely unrealistic. Unfortunately nothing can be done about that.
2. Net lag. We all know that the net/server lag is unavoidable and that it affects different situations differently. Unfortunately it affects the Head-On situation much more then other situations because of the much greater combined speed of closure.
In real life it is usually possible to avoid the HO. In this sim your avoidance move will be visible to the enemy 2 seconds later. So while trying to avoid, you will still be flying straight in his sights and in 2 seconds the HO is usually over. There is NO WAY to avoid the HO, so you may as well try to shoot down the other guy.
Here is my unrealistic solution: using that detailed damage system make the front aspect of the fighter plane much harder - windshield, front of the engine, front edges of the wings, rudder and stabiliser. Attacking planes from the front will suddenly become much less attractive. People will have to engage in actual ACM and outmaneuver the enemy to get a better shot.
Obviously, this fix will screw up something else, like ground ACK fire and bomber's gunners fire or attacking a bomber head-on - those are the natural situations involving shooting the plane's front aspect. Could the HO fire be toned down only if it comes from fighter to fighter? Otherwise flying skill becomes much less important and the combat gets reduced to the "point and shoot with a biggest gun" like in Quake.
What do you think?
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Here's something also that doesn't make sense (takes away from realism) in the game. If I want to take F2, it makes greater sense to shoot the enemy down, then let him float in the chute instead of shooting it. Thus, he doesn't respawn and get back in the air asap. Thus, more time for my side to gain air superiority and take the base.
If I get hit, I want to bail (save score as well). If I'm at 9k feet, it takes time to get to the ground. In bomber sorties, I've bailed and it takes like 10 minutes plus to hit the ground from 25k. I PRAY that somebody shoots my chute to get me back in the game faster. If chutes were not shot, the pilots (although having a better score because the weren't killed) are penalized for being shot down by the time it takes to land the chute.
Just my little rant...
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Sorry Miko, but...
No way, no how !!
Basically, what you are suggesting is a return to AirWarrior ridiculous, forward "cone of invulnerability" (tm). Over there, the server throws out something like 95% of all front quarter hits.
Not only is this incredibly unrealistic, but it teachs really bad ACM.
I can honestly understand some people's dislike of HO shots. But then again there is an old saying "It takes two to HO". The painful, but honest truth is that if you don't want to die by the HO, don't go for it yourself.
Over 90% of the time, it is possible to both avoid the HO and gain an advantageous position on the guy trying to for the HO shot.
If anyone is having problems with avoiding HO's, I suggest a little time in the Training Arena, with some of the Trainers. A couple of hours work, and its easy.
I apologize if I sound harsh, but the very last thing I want to see happen is for the game to be unrealistically "gimped", when there are solutions such as better training.
[Edit: And to answer the obvious question, no, I don't take HO's myself]
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Vermillion,
I have never seen the Air Warrior, so I came to the "ridiculous solution" all by myself. I am sure that people that wrote AW were not complete idiots themselves.
Also if you read other threads on this board, you will see that it does not "take two for HO" and if you reread my post, you will see the physical explanation for it - namely FOD and net lag. The problem is there and it is quite real. HO is very popular, much more popular then it was in the real war. If it were so easy to avoid, not many people would have been trying it.
While it is possible, as you say, to **slightly** reduce your chances to die in HO after many hours of training, many novices will come in to try the game, get blown repeatedly by HO dweebs and say "#@$% you, this game is not realistic!" and go away to play the EAW. Then HT and his crew will starve to death and that will be the end of AH.
You cannot require players to have 1000 hours of flying time before they start enjoying the game or require voluntary policing themselves and not exploiting bugs/inacuracies/deficiencies in the game like no death, unlimited planes or sub-orbital bombers. It never worked and never will.
I did not claim my solution was realistic, merely said it would reduce even less realistic behavior. Probably less then 1% of the planes in WWII were downed during head-ons. If we unrealisticaly restrict people from doing that - is it a big deal? And I never said the invulnerability should be complete, just significantly reduced. So you could still damage the enemy during the HO, but then would have to engage and finish him off. You will even have your hit percentage intact.
Regards,
miko--
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LowJoe here is a tip...don't pull the ripcord till you are low.
It doesn't take very long to freefall from 25k.
Just be sure to pull the cord in time to open chute and slow down. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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miko..
What you are suggesting is Front Deflector Sheilds.. Is this a flight sim or a space sim...
Takes 2 to HO.. It very easy to avoid. My suggestion is,if ya dont want to die in the HO merge a hard roll or tight bank or any of 6 or 7 other moves to avoid it.
But lets stay away from the Foce Field thing... common sence good SA and a little ACM go a long way..
Anyway,ill HO any F4U,Spit,109,190 with my p51.. 95% of the time the guy with cannons will go for the HO..
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(http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/wd51.jpg)
-= Death From Behind =-
[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Miko, where did I say that you can learn to **slighty** reduce the chance of dying to the HO, by spending thousands of hours training?
My words were:
Over 90% of the time, it is possible to both avoid the HO and gain an advantageous position on the guy trying to for the HO shot.
That means 9 passes out of 10, YOU will gain the advantage if he goes for the HO.
Spend 3 hours in the Training arena with Lephturn or Popeye (or really any trainer), and I bet you hardly ever have a problem with HO's again. And thats to learn all the "advanced" tricks. Most people can learn two simple avoidance techniques in one hour.
If your skeptical, I offer my own time in the TA, and will let you take as many HO passes at me as you wish, to prove the point. And I am an average pilot at best.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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HO's are not a major issue here. Stop by the training arena and any one of the trainers can show you how to avoid at least 80% of the HO's.
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Aye; What Verm and Wardog said!
Hang
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OK guys,
I appreciate the offers of help
May be I exagerated a bit. But there is a lot of complaints on this board from people who have trouble avoiding HO. And there is a lot of people trying it.
Let me demonstrate my point mathematically:
1. You are flying at 225mph
2. Enemy dives at you acceletaring at about 450mph
3. Total closure speed is 675mph or 968,000 yards/hour or 330 yards/sec
4. His position/speed on your display becomes further from the reality because his speed increases, so you notice his actions later. On his display he sees you where you are because your speed is constant.
5. Let's say you realise he is HOing when he is at D12 indicated and break immediately. He starts shooting at the same moment.
6. At that moment you may be at D11 indicated on his display (see 4).
7. For 2 more seconds you are flying straight and level on his display, 2x330 = 660 yards.
8. He is shooting at you flying straight from D11 to D4 with combined speed increasing penetration of his rounds.
9. His front end sees his shells hitting you at D4 and sends an update to your FE.
10. In two more seconds he is D2 behind you, nowhere close to getting a shot at you **according to your display**.
11. At that moment the bullet hit update from his FE arrives and you suddenly die! That is pretty much the way people describe their death in HO.
If you do not realise at D12 that he is trying to HO and let him in closer, if you are a bit late with your evasion, if he or you are flying faster, if his or your lag is worse - you have no chance to affect the outcome.
Large combined net lag is a friend to a HO dweeb.
Obviously a guy with a huge net lag has an advantage over other players if he is the one flying a fast bird and initiating Head-Ons.
I am not saying that "forward deflection shields" are realistic. I am just saying that the net lag and the absence of FOD is more unrealistic.
For guys who fly realistically and avoid HO the "forward deflector shields" will rarely matter. It's not like you are going to hide behind them - you still get some damage if hit, and if you are just flying straight while the enemy may be reversing on you (remember that lag), he will get a positional advantage and saddle up on your 6.
miko--
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Verm is right.
Only those of us that have come over from Airwarrior will understand. They have introduced exactly what has been suggested and it's terrible.
Pilots that have come from Airwarrior usually have a terrible time trying to shake the habit of flying directly at the HO end of an enemy, because in Airwarrior that's your safest move if your in trouble.
In real life it's your worst move.
Ranger Bob
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I Avoid HO like the plague itself. I find them very easy to avoid. Why Take the HO when you die (or get badly damaged) 4 out of five times? See my reply to SCDuckwing6's post on gunnery in the help and training thread.
More often than the HO person is higher than you and they waste all their E off the bat with a stupid HO attempt that WILL fail when countered properly. So bring em on, i like to kill idiots.
I dont want an invincible front end (bullet proof 6 would be nice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) it would probably lead to more HO's or bad ACM habits. Just say NO to cone of invincibility.
To the 2nd guy who posted (forgot name - sry) dont open your chute till your about 1-2K off the deck depending on how far you have fallen. Secondly rather than killing a base defender, play with him, drag him away, give enuf to keep him interested but not get yourself killed. If you kill him - he'll up again over the feild. You want a wingman with you for this...
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Could one of you guys give me some advice on what kind of manuever to use to avoid HOs?
I agree that the "forward shields" would be a bad idea and end up getting people into bad ACM habits.
I'd appriciate the suggestions on what do do to avoid the HO.
Kiitos
Sisu
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The best is to get some angle off.. then barrel roll as he gets close; avoid remaining 'in plane' with him and fer chrisakes don't hold still while he hoses yah. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My personal favorite is the 'duck'. Get under him. Kick in all your rudder and/or roll as he gets inside gun range. I usually pull my lift vector into his direction of travel as he goes by. This could be called a 'pre-turn'. I don't often get tagged in a HO. If we are anywhere near energy parity; when he goes by; he's MINE. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As he goes by; eyeball his energy and inclinations and counter as appropriate. There are several discussions on this in the Help and Training forum and I strongly reccomend Shaw's book "Air Combat; Tactics and Manuvering" as the definitive text on how to stay alive in Aces High.
If you see me on line and would like some help; give a shout and we'll go to the practice arena and give it a go.. you'll be pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to stay alive; and put the other guy in a bag. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Best of luck!
Hang
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This thread is pointless... I HAVE NEVER BEEN FORCED INTO A HEAD ON GUNS PASS. People who cry about HO passes, choose to engage in them of their own free will then get mad when the results are not what they hoped for... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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Coyote
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sigh.......
I usually try to avoid these discusions but I'm gonna give it a try.
First, I'm no ace. I'm better than some guys, worse than many. Basically, I consider myself right in the meat of the bell curve. But I can safely say that I have never died in a HO that I did not actively choose to engage in.
I would like to make the following points:
1. There are many cases IMHO where the headon is a perfectly intelligent choice. For instance: I'm out numbered 6 to 1, defending a base, I take off and offer a HO pass to a vulcher. If he has alt, numbers, and position on me, I can take off again in 5 seconds and he has to fly 10 minutes to get back, and HE STILL CHOOSES to accept the HO then it is my moral DUTY to relieve him of his aircraft(consider it a stupidity tax).
In general in any situation where I find my self co-E and out numbered and unable to run I'll offer a HO to any idiot that will accept. When 4 to 1 out numbered 50/50 odds look pretty good. Anyone who has the odds in their favor and still accepts the HO deserves the rounds.
2. The most important point is that 80% of what people whine about HO aren't REALLY HO!
I have had lots of instances where someone has whined about HO where I was able to lay lead on them but they didn't have angle to lay lead on me. Thats merely front quarter shot. Lots of time when I'm B&Z I am shooting at thier front but they can't pull the nose up enough to hit me. THATS NOT A HO!
Basically there is too much whining and not enough killing. Anyone who dies in a HO either chose to participate or was to slow and weak or stupid to avoid. Either way they get what they deserve. (sorry I'm 1/2 Klingon.)
IMHO, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Wab
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Nothing wrong with being half klingon Wab!
Personally I'm Ferengi, but I was raised by Klingons so the same morals apply, well to a point anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to HO's, they are a fact of life.Either hit firstest with the mostest or duck fast!
While I'm not a trainer Shaw is the bible,read it well & often.Seperation is the key to not only surviveing but turning the tables.
Flying your aircrafts strengths to the others weakness will ussually put you in a superior position.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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Ok Definition time.
HO, "head on shot" for the new guys, is when you and your enemy are relatively at the same altitude and same energy states. Both aircraft approach from a distance nose to nose and one or both of the pilots attempts to take a shot. Imagine two Knights (literally (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) jousting with one another, but in airplanes and you get the idea. This can also be done in the vertical plane, but is much harder to discribe in a definition.
Now, If the enemy is higher than you (more than say 3k) and dives down on you to take a make an attack, and you turn your aircraft into the attack, this is not a HO. This is a BnZ (Boom and Zoom) attack, where the defender forced a front quarter shot.
If you are in a swirling furball, with many planes turning in many directions. And suddenly as you pull thru your turn, an enemy is doing the same thing but opposite of you and you come into a firing situation. This is not a HO. This is a snapshot taken in a furball. A smart pilot wouldn't have been there in the first place, no matter their flying style (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ok definitions aside.
I have seen many references to "how do I avoid the HO if the enemy is diving on me". Guys, if the enemy is diving on you its not a HO, he is using a style of attack called energy fighting where he is using a faster airplane (like a P-51) to attack a better turning plane (like a Spitfire).
If you are caught in this situation, there is already a problem before the enemy even starts to fire. It could be many things but here are a few things to think about.
- You have chosen to enter the fight without enough altitude
- Your Situational Awareness (SA) was not good enough to realize the enemy had a superior position
- Your SA failed to notice the enemy until he was ready to attack you
- You knowingly entered a fight from an inferior position
- You chose to fly an aircraft with superior turnrates, but is slower and/or cann't climb as well
These are just a few.
But lets make sure that what we are calling "HO's", are really HO's.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-23-2000).]
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You know, after reading all of the responses here and in my HO thread, I now realize that the people(like me) that don't know how to avoid the HO are the ones complaining about it.
Seems like this would be an ideal topic for a large training class in the TA. Would one of you famous trainer types be up for holding a "HO avoidance clinic" sometime soon? I think you'd get a strong showing of folks.
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
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heee he he.
"I have seen many references to "how do I avoid the HO if the enemy is diving on me". Guys, if the enemy is diving on you its not a HO, he is using a style of attack called energy fighting where he is using a faster airplane (like a P-51) to attack a better turning plane (like a Spitfire)."
Last night I started a dogfight with a P-51 (or was he in a 38 at the time? no matter)
He was doing hammer heads, I was doing zoom climbing to meet him. Suddenly his diving nose is pointed at my climbing nose. I visually zoomed in...(I'd just gotten kilt in HO's, real ones, at the merge four times in a row).... and I figure now this guy is going to shoot, so I will too. We both opened fire at about the same time. We both died.
I couldn't have avoided it. Not without just stalling and then tumbling like a leaf.
I did get the complimentary snide remark on the open channel, "...nice HO..." - it doesn't bother me anymore.
But banana is right (in another topic). HO's and jousting seems to be the predominate method lately at the initial encounter. I'll just practice the non self defeating evasives that you (Verm), Lephturn and others have written about. I'll solve it for myself - Please! - no 'artificial sweeters' in the game for me though.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-23-2000).]
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CC westy...thats the kind of HO I really like...you were in disadvantage and you forced your Higher-E foe to a Headon, when he had the iniciative and advantage. He did a mistaken maneouver and you were clever enuf to caught him in it. <S> to your HO.
Yesterday over F16 I had a very similar situation...but I was in the higher side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif). I had a high fw190A-8 over a much lower Niki driven by Fatty. I bounced, he evaded, I hi yoyo-ed to get firing position...but I did a very Hi and slow yoyo and when I pointed down I had in my face those 20mm spreading bullets... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) and I was so slow that I couldn't ever fire by myself!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
<S> fatty...you did a nice work (yep I blewed it losing so much E...but even in a faster Yoyo I'd have faced your cannons...maybe resulting both dead...but I fell in your trap 100%). Thats the Kinda HO that is clever to do. The one it isnt is to be 10K over an enemy faster than him and dive in his 12 to do a Headon...that is DWEEB!...in fact if you are Co-E with a SpitfireIX vs ANY plane, it is Dweeb to HO, cuz you have a Huge advantage already.
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-23-2000).]
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banana, I'm not a trainer type, but I'm certainly willing to spend some time in the TA with yah practicing anti-HO techniques.
Especially since we're squaddies and all... Oh wait, not anymore you squad jumping spitdweeb bastich (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Just kidding.
You know how to get ahold of me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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OK - I'm guilty - I always start to look for a head on pass (but I don't shoot) but I plead Air Warrior Insanity.
I am new to online flight sim combat and have just come to AH from AirWarrior (only a week ago)and I was trianed in there to go for the head on merge. 95% of all hits were thrown out so it was the safest way to engage and, if you like, an agreed ettiquette. All the training material started with a head on merge....
So I carried on - perhaps part of the problem is the number of people coming across from AW ??
Anyway I agree to try and stop HOing.
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Heheheh I find myself "caught" at times due to my poor acm, in a position where I cannot avoid the HO but most times it is my own fault and yes I am human and like everyone else have bad days where I "whine" but later I realize it was MY fault and no one else's that I died in an HO. I do have some problems with "net lag" sometimes where I am unable to tell if I am catching a bogie or if he is flying at me until it is too late to avoid the HO, these are frustrating but NOT the the fault of the sim, just my lousy connects.
BigJim
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HO? LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not again.....
I HO sometimes, why?
Because it is fun and I actually win sometimes. That makes me feel good. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Otherwise HO's are pretty easy to avoid if you have enough E. Stop by the TA when I am there, I will show anyone how to do it.
Who am I? I am the "MinoTaurget" and an AH trainer. I am a lousy pilot, but I can avoid the HO and so can you.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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I agree that the "forward shields" approach would do more harm than good.
I find a good barrel roll can avoid the headon in many cases. Not that I avoid many, im a sucker for em all the time...lol
Jarbo
of the Buccaneers