Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Randy1 on April 20, 2014, 10:58:58 AM
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Am I reading this letter wrong? The N is a terrible climber in AH but in this letter it out climbs the D with both planes in WEP and combat load( which I think is full fuel and full ammo load). The AH shows the N to be a slower climber in WEP than the D in WEP.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/comp-p47dmn.jpg (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/comp-p47dmn.jpg)
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Which D model would be the question that jumps out at me. Which prop was it using?
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Note the weights in the letter vs the AH charts. Combat load is likely 267 rpg.
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That document also reflects combat power.....
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The AH shows the N to be a slower climber in WEP than the D in WEP.
In the game the N outclimbs the D given the same loadout, on WEP. Note that "same" means absolute gallons of fuel, not percentage.
The N is heavier and has the same power on MIL as the D's, so it is the worst climber on MIL. It has a super crazy WEP though which makes up for the extra weight when engaged. The M model has about the same weight as the other D25/40 but the WEP power of the N.
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That document also reflects combat power.....
It says WEP. Is WEP the same as combat power?
Anyone know how they define combat weight?
There is no match with AH using 100% fuel and the smaller eight 50s load-out. The AH weight is higher than the letter listed combat weight.
The date of the letter suggest a late war D model but of course that is a guess.
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Why assume full fuel? The weights are given in the letter.
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Why assume full fuel? The weights are given in the letter.
I thought I had read somewhere that combat weight(as listed in the letter) is defined as full fuel and full ammo for a fighter. I then compared the weight in the letter to the E6b.
This afternoon I will attempt to find a combo to match weights in the letter to AH.
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The N also carries a vast amount of fuel compared to other Jugs. Thus any simple climb rate comparison with both planes at 50 percent load out will not accurately reflect the N's capacities. Comparing the planes at fuel loads that give equivalent time in the air is more appropriate.
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The N also carries a vast amount of fuel compared to other Jugs. Thus any simple climb rate comparison with both planes at 50 percent load out will not accurately reflect the N's capacities. Comparing the planes at fuel loads that give equivalent time in the air is more appropriate.
Best I can tell is the acceptance performance test were all done with 200 gallons of fuel with simulated ammo loads.
The letter's test were done at an undefined Combat weight and were more than likely performed at a base somewhere using stopwatches and on board standard instruments. In others words there is nothing in the letter we can hang our hat on as I have found out.
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The 47M is a beast. A BEAST!
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The 47M is a beast. A BEAST!
Yes it is, it takes me quite awhile to chase them down in my TA152 sometimes. :devil
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This quote came from the P38J performance test about combat weight. 300 gallons is 3/4 fuel.
" High speed and climb performance have been completed on this airplane at a take-off weight of 16,597 lb. This loading corresponds to athe average P-38 combat weight with full oil, 300 gallons of fuel and specified armament and ammunition. "
Then I found this on a 70"hg P38J test.
"All tests were flown at a gross weight at take-off of 17,363 lbs. with the c.g. at 26.72% MAC, gear up, and 23.86% MAC gear down. This weight which corresponds to the combat weight of the airplane included 416 gallons of gasoline, full oil, 457.5 lbs. of ballst for 1500 rounds of .50 caliber ammunition, and 200 lbs. for the pilot. "
Note no mention of the canon weight added.
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Since the P-38 does not have a 1500 round load the ballast is likely for both gun and cannon ammo.
The AH J model with full fuel and 200 rounds per gun weighs 17,328 lbs vs the 17,363 lbs quoted.
The early J models had 4 fuel tanks for 306 total gallons. Our J, and the L model, has 6 tanks with
416 gallons capacity. If the first test was an early model J it would have 300 gallons for a full combat load.
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Thanks FLS.
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Yes it is, it takes me quite awhile to chase them down in my TA152 sometimes. :devil
Better hope you don't catch mine :devil
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Better hope you don't catch mine :devil
I hope very much that I do find yours sir, I live for a high altitude fight :salute
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Better hope you don't catch mine :devil
He can't (if you're over 10k).
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He can't (if you're over 10k).
Oh, but he can. The Ta152's WEP lasts twice as long.
It might recharge twice as fast too, not sure about that though.
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it takes 5 minutes to recharge back to 10 minutes of wep, if managed properly you should never run out of Wep in the 152.
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Oh, but he can. The Ta152's WEP lasts twice as long.
It might recharge twice as fast too, not sure about that though.
Fleet of 152s behind me in FSO when we had the M while I covered a set of 29s. Never got close in 10+ min of persuit. Wonder how I managed that? Guess they all sucked at WEP management.
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Oh, but he can. The Ta152's WEP lasts twice as long.
It might recharge twice as fast too, not sure about that though.
Ta 152H has a 10/5 min WEP cycle. Which essentially boils down to "unlimited" WEP in practice.
The P-47N has 5/10 min WEP cycle.
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The FW190A has 10min /change plane WEP cycle.
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Fleet of 152s behind me in FSO when we had the M while I covered a set of 29s. Never got close in 10+ min of persuit. Wonder how I managed that? Guess they all sucked at WEP management.
Up to 36K the 47N is faster than the Ta-152 when both are using WEP. It can take a lot of time in pursuit to compensate for this with a longer WEP duration, especially as acceleration is quite reduced at high altitudes.
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Up to 36K the 47N is faster than the Ta-152 when both are using WEP. It can take a lot of time in pursuit to compensate for this with a longer WEP duration, especially as acceleration is quite reduced at high altitudes.
Agreed. Which is why a TA152 won't catch a M/N at altitude. I think Karnak just likes to disagree with whatever I post.
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Which is why a TA152 won't catch a M/N at altitude.
As an avid Ta 152H pilot, I wouldn't go that far. It all depends on initial position and E state, and particularly pilot skill. Of course the latter one is always a big factor, but at really high altitudes the inexperienced pilot will find himself burn E much quicker and regain it much slower than at the usual MA altitudes. I have caught many a jug having apparently wasted it's WEP early on and/or shedding a lot of E with unnecessary manoeuvres
I really miss big escorted high altitude buff raids :(
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Agreed. Which is why a TA152 won't catch a M/N at altitude. I think Karnak just likes to disagree with whatever I post.
Sorry, but I don't actually pay much attention to who said something. I recalled Luche's posts on the Ta152's WEP and knew that it could overcome the P-47's higher speed on WEP via greater WEP endurance. Particularly down lower such as the 10k you posted where accelerations haven't been gutted by thin air.
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Sigh. OK if the 152 pilot has 30 minutes to run the Jug down might catch it.
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Sigh. OK if the 152 pilot has 30 minutes to run the Jug down might catch it.
At high altitudes, a chase that starts outside of gun range is limited by the Mach limit. The chased plane will lower its nose and can ride the compressibility for a good few minutes, completely irrespective of its max level speed. The chasing plane will do the same at its own Mach limit. WEP not needed and is not wasted. Not sure about the dive limits of the 152, but even if slightly higher than the P-47, the gap cannot be closed fast, if at all. A 152 will have to chase the P47N all the way down to the deck, by which time they have covered about 2 sectors. When finally at low altitudes the N can start using its 5 minutes of WEP which at max-speed level flight will carry it another 35-40 miles at a speed faster than the 152.
If the 152 will ever catch the P47N/M it will either be right at the beginning if the chase started from a small separation, or after a chase of at least 4 sectors. Good luck to the 152 with that.
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Yes it is, it takes me quite awhile to chase them down in my TA152 sometimes. :devil
this a good chase at 50k :)