Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: BnZs on April 24, 2014, 08:54:14 PM
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Hi. I'd like to start a series of discussions about how to exploit specific attributes in dissimilar plane combat.
Let's start with power loading. Assume a fighter with significantly more horsepower in relation to its weight, leading to better climb and acceleration performance. Assume the adversary has a significant advantage in both instantaneous and sustained turn performance. Assume a roughly co-alt encounter. What are the tactics appropriate to WWII prop aircraft that the "energy" fighter in this example can use to gain the advantage and the kill?
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I would climb and head around 30 degrees off his nose to make him have to go vertical to get to you before the merge, then just keep climbing until he stalls.
But no encounter is the same...
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In broad terms, I just keep the nose pointed up. If it's co-E merge, I find it's better to conserve your E and spiral climb, forcing him to chase you up and bleeding his E. As the two of you get slower, he'll have fewer options than you will.
Wiley.
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The KI43 will cause issues in this regard as it can hang on the prop longer in most instances as the lower of the 2 planes in question it can sustain a left hand spiral climb at around 50-60 mph with 50% or less fuel on board. But of course as any amount of distance is gained the weaker fire power of the 43's guns will allow an opponent the chance to reset and try again. I think it be best to name specific planes that you'd like to go over, then you could get into better and more defined details.
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I think it be best to name specific planes that you'd like to go over, then you could get into better and more defined details.
A thrust/weight advantage is a thrust/weight advantage and the general tactics involved ought to transfer. And the exploitable attributes of a given plane change based on the opposition, so it is more useful to know to exploit a given advantage. A P-47M fighting a 190 D9 is faced with weight/horsepower disadvantage but an advantage in maneuverability. If that same P-47M is fighting an F4U-1, the situation is exactly reversed.
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I would climb and head around 30 degrees off his nose to make him have to go vertical to get to you before the merge, then just keep climbing until he stalls.
But no encounter is the same...
And if he chooses not to stall?
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A thrust/weight advantage is a thrust/weight advantage and the general tactics involved ought to transfer. And the exploitable attributes of a given plane change based on the opposition, so it is more useful to know to exploit a given advantage. A P-47M fighting a 190 D9 is faced with weight/horsepower disadvantage but an advantage in maneuverability. If that same P-47M is fighting an F4U-1, the situation is exactly reversed.
I dunno... a Ki-84 and a 109K4 are both great climbers/accelerators, but they don't have the same bag of tricks really, right?
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Power loading... so basically we're talking about climb and acceleration, right?
The best way, but also the most hazardous, is to feign a turn fight to make sure the less powerful plane bleeds his E, then take him up. It won't take too long before you can drop on his head and make something blow up. If you screw it up and misjudge E or fight the wrong fight too long though, yous in trouble.
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One other tidbit, I find drawing out the fight generally favors the better climbing/accelerating plane. If you try to end it quick, you don't really have the chance to have your advantage affect the fight.
Wiley.
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And if he chooses not to stall?
If You mean he levels out, you simply chop throttle and dive on him, easy kill.
The goal here is to try and make him maintain a very high AoA while you are still in a low speed climb (spiral climb works for this). He won't have the engine power to keep him going at a high angle and will be forced to lower his nose, or stall. You use this opportunity to roll over on him, and chopping the throttle will help decrease the closing rate and you have more time for a shot.
I can explain further if need be.
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If You mean he levels out, you simply chop throttle and dive on him, easy kill.
Heh. Not always so.
- oldman
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Heh. Not always so.
- oldman
Easy setup rather, your gunnery skills aren't my problem :neener:
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If You mean he levels out, you simply chop throttle and dive on him, easy kill.
The goal here is to try and make him maintain a very high AoA while you are still in a low speed climb (spiral climb works for this). He won't have the engine power to keep him going at a high angle and will be forced to lower his nose, or stall. You use this opportunity to roll over on him, and chopping the throttle will help decrease the closing rate and you have more time for a shot.
I can explain further if need be.
I made no mention of leveling out.
You miss the point. You assume he's going to take the bait and do what you expect him to do. What are you going to do when he doesn't cooperate and uses some tactical skill against you instead?
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You miss the point. You assume he's going to take the bait and do what you expect him to do. What are you going to do when he doesn't cooperate and uses some tactical skill against you instead?
At that point, its kinda up to you to out-tactics him isn't it? Now what you would do depends on what specifically he is doing.
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I made no mention of leveling out.
You miss the point. You assume he's going to take the bait and do what you expect him to do. What are you going to do when he doesn't cooperate and uses some tactical skill against you instead?
I gave a general maneuver you can use if you are unsure what to do. No fight is ever going to be the same, from that point on, it is up to you to decide how the fight will go. I can show you what I'm talking about in the DA if you want, if you still don't understand.
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The point of this discussion is sharing appropriate tactics so when you are asked what you would do next please give a useful answer that people can learn from.
Hopefully we'll all keep in mind that general answers to general questions will have exceptions.
If you merge co-E with a better turner it's best to extend, gain altitude advantage, re-merge.
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I gave a general maneuver you can use if you are unsure what to do. No fight is ever going to be the same, from that point on, it is up to you to decide how the fight will go. I can show you what I'm talking about in the DA if you want, if you still don't understand.
Being unsure what to do isn't usually an issue here. I agree that no fight is ever going to be the same as the last. My question was based on "until he stalls", indicating an expectation. A solid understanding of BFM and energy management will provide a good skill set to counter what the other guy presents. Most often, two evenly matched sticks and aircraft are going to neutralize each other's moves until one makes a mistake. :salute
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Being unsure what to do isn't usually an issue here. I agree that no fight is ever going to be the same as the last. My question was based on "until he stalls", indicating an expectation. A solid understanding of BFM and energy management will provide a good skill set to counter what the other guy presents. Most often, two evenly matched sticks and aircraft are going to neutralize each other's moves until one makes a mistake. :salute
I guess I meant that as an opening move, depending on what the other guy does you change what you do.
You're right in the sense that expecting someone to do something is the last thing you want to do
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I guess I meant that as an opening move, depending on what the other guy does you change what you do.
You're right in the sense that expecting someone to do something is the last thing you want to do
Agree! It's always a fluid situation and requires the ability to adapt to and counter the opponent's next move. :salute
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Since the OP specified a superior turning bandit I would worry that a spiral climb would just set up shot opportunities for the bandit. The bandit can match your turn with excess power still available for climbing. Your climb advantage would be greater in a straight climb. When you merge with enough speed advantage you can spiral climb and watch for the bandit to drop his nose. When it's a co-E merge with a better turning bandit you want to remember that turning room works both ways.
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Hi. I'd like to start a series of discussions about how to exploit specific attributes in dissimilar plane combat.
Let's start with power loading. Assume a fighter with significantly more horsepower in relation to its weight, leading to better climb and acceleration performance. Assume the adversary has a significant advantage in both instantaneous and sustained turn performance. Assume a roughly co-alt encounter. What are the tactics appropriate to WWII prop aircraft that the "energy" fighter in this example can use to gain the advantage and the kill?
Inconlusive without knowing about merge speeds, top speeds, actual merge alt, dive perfomance and structural integrity, roll rate at various speeds and mass (e.g. zoom capability). I may have missed something.
All of the above being equal there may be a few tricks you can use (i.e. reduce speed to temporarily improve turn performance, force an overshoot, win a flat or rolling scissors, win a defensive barrel roll, etc.) but when you're talking about a double or more disadvantage you're likely going to die if your opponent knows what he's doing.
[EDIT] This may be a useful exercise if you also listed an exploitable advantage or two, otherwise it's pretty much useless.
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I find myself in the same situation as the OP describes all the time because I fly the D11 a lot. If allowed, I will try to gain separation and keep my speed up, all the while try and chip away at my opponents energy advantage when I can. Speed is your friend in this situation. Sacrifice a little speed for altitude when you get an opportunity, ie, the opponent sacrifices some of his speed to gain a hard shot or an HO. Don't give it all up - you need it to keep your AC responsive. I find the majority of AH pilots will get impatient, do exactly this and that is when I try to gain an angle and altitude. Once I roughly have equalized energy states, I get really aggressive and start using flaps, trim, etc.
Its worth stating in this discussion, at least for the P-47, when you need to reverse quickly after your zoom, use gravity to help get your nose around. Chop your throttle a bit to limit engine torque, initiate your turn and firewall it again. This will let the torque and gravity work together to get your nose around. This works really well with the P-47.
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Since the OP specified a superior turning bandit I would worry that a spiral climb would just set up shot opportunities for the bandit. The bandit can match your turn with excess power still available for climbing. Your climb advantage would be greater in a straight climb. When you merge with enough speed advantage you can spiral climb and watch for the bandit to drop his nose. When it's a co-E merge with a better turning bandit you want to remember that turning room works both ways.
That's why I suggested you make him nose up to you if he wants to follow or HO, and if you keep a shallow climb while avoiding the HO he will likely loop up to you, and you can out climb him from there. But there are too many factors to predict so this might not always work.
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Inconlusive without knowing about merge speeds, top speeds, actual merge alt, dive perfomance and structural integrity, roll rate at various speeds and mass (e.g. zoom capability). I may have missed something.
All of the above being equal there may be a few tricks you can use (i.e. reduce speed to temporarily improve turn performance, force an overshoot, win a flat or rolling scissors, win a defensive barrel roll, etc.) but when you're talking about a double or more disadvantage you're likely going to die if your opponent knows what he's doing.
[EDIT] This may be a useful exercise if you also listed an exploitable advantage or two, otherwise it's pretty much useless.
I specified a horsepower advantage for one plane and a turning advantage for the *other*. Sorry if that was unclear.
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I specified a horsepower advantage for one plane and a turning advantage for the *other*. Sorry if that was unclear.
Yeah, it wasn't clear. I thought you were giving all the advantages listed to the opponent.
In that case I'd work the vertical fight until I owned the upper position. Just how you go about that depends on a lot of other variables but you should be able to eventually take control of the fight from a position of advantage.
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From someone who uses a plane that is under powered compared to most enemy fighters...
It is simply nose up and keep pressure on the lesser powered plane....
Don't turn too much...perhaps one or two turns but lower G turns feigning a turn fight to have your adversary commit to a turn fight ( usually I will pull around a little harder if I see this) which you are not going to have and burn E, then climb and set... ( Sometimes this will totally catch the con off guard also...)
Pressure is the key...many who do this to me spend too long climbing and setting...leaving me with the opportunity to gain some speed. Trying to stay as close to directly above is also helpful as I will try and head in the opposite direction of the climb...watching for when the turn is made then turn back in. So if you have powered out more than up separation gets larger and my E gets greater
Keep it clear how you want to fight
Those who control themselves and stick to their game plan will wear me down till I just can't get clear of a guns solution but the key to it is the pressure.... climbing out to 2 k after every pass is no good....to much E is regained...
In these situations I constantly pull the same move... get the con thinking he has me pegged and then when they change their attack, I slightly change my defense....and then I am actually in control of the fight as the con is doing and moving how I want him to, often causing frustration and a mistake which I try and pounce on.
When pressure is kept I am totally in the hands of gunnery skill... and my ability to make it hard or get clear of guns solution at a disadvantaged state. My only option here is to try and force an over shoot to try and turn the tables... clear heads will always prevail...and under estimation will get you killed..so will over confidence.
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And if he chooses not to stall?
Good question...
Convert your altitude advantage into a guns pass on his rear quarter. The hardest part often seems to be managing to get down into his rear quarter for your pass instead of just diving on him, which allows him to pull up, possibly HO, and leads to an exchange of positions.
I've been digging into Shaw again, so of course his instructions are mainly written with the idea of jet fighters. I've been wondering which aspects of the energy fight against the better turning opponent would differ with prop craft.
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Good question...
Convert your altitude advantage into a guns pass on his rear quarter.
Or, maneuver out of plane, not be where he expects you to be, and maneuver to where you anticipate him to go next.
I've been wondering which aspects of the energy fight against the better turning opponent would differ with prop craft.
Pretty much the same, just different levels of potential energy between jets and props. The basics still apply. :salute
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I am a little lost here. What do you guys call a spiral climb. How high is AoA
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I am a little lost here. What do you guys call a spiral climb. How high is AoA
Think of a spring. How it spirals always turning but still going up, you want your enemy in the MIDDLE of that spring, in the hole, below you. That way, if he is trying to get a shot on you, he has to maintain a very high AoA (angle of attack) aka he is trying to climb to you at say an 80 degree angle (almost straight up) while you only have to climb around 20-30 degrees. This works in all planes, but ones with better stall speed characteristics are the best (109k4, spit 16 etc. You wouldn't want to be in a p47d25 at a similar E state to a spit 16 and try this because he will most likely catch you.
How to counter this is easy, just follow the spring instead of trying to point your nose at the enemy (lag pursuit iirc).
Or, level out an gain some distance to try and reset.
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I am a little lost here. What do you guys call a spiral climb. How high is AoA
Not sure what your AoA query is asking. Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack if you're not clear about what it is. The spiral climb seems to be more of a "game" terminology. In the real world of BFM, it could be related to a vertical scissors maneuver between two fighters. :salute
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Think of a spring. How it spirals always turning but still going up, you want your enemy in the MIDDLE of that spring, in the hole, below you. That way, if he is trying to get a shot on you, he has to maintain a very high AoA (angle of attack) aka he is trying to climb to you at say an 80 degree angle (almost straight up) while you only have to climb around 20-30 degrees. This works in all planes, but ones with better stall speed characteristics are the best (109k4, spit 16 etc. You wouldn't want to be in a p47d25 at a similar E state to a spit 16 and try this because he will most likely catch you.
How to counter this is easy, just follow the spring instead of trying to point your nose at the enemy (lag pursuit iirc).
Or, level out an gain some distance to try and reset.
THanks, Very well described .
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Not sure what your AoA query is asking. Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack if you're not clear about what it is. The spiral climb seems to be more of a "game" terminology. In the real world of BFM, it could be related to a vertical scissors maneuver between two fighters. :salute
He's asking how hard should you be climbing. Do you want it to be a climb at the edge of your stall, a slow climb at high air speed, or something in between.
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You have to evaluate the bandit. Note if he is falling back, holding relative position, out turning you, or cutting the circle. You will decide at that time how hard to maneuver. You want him encouraged to engage but not so much that he'll be successful.
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He's asking how hard should you be climbing.
Wpeters, is that what you're asking?