Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on May 02, 2014, 07:56:15 PM
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(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31.0-8/1658553_10203763174545214_111831203070852657_o.jpg)
A VF-74 F6F-5 (early build) readies for a catapult launch from the U.S.S. Kassan Bay off the south coast of France, 8/19/44.
Hellcats from CVEs Kassan Bay and Tulagi supported the landings on the Riviera (Operation Anvil/Dragoon). For 13 days they bombed and strafed German forces and transport in southern France. In the process, they shot down eight German aircraft (three He 111s, one Do 217, one Ju 88 and three Ju 52s loaded with senior German officers trying to escape from Marseilles). Three Royal Navy CVEs also contributed Hellcat I fighters to the invasion.
One pilot destroyed two Mk IV tanks, dropping a 500 lb bomb on each one, hidden in woods. Oddly enough, a P-51C loaned from the USAAF and flown by a Navy pilot, was used as a spotter aircraft and coordinated air strikes by USN and Royal Navy Hellcats. Captured German officers told that they thought they were being attacked by American Thunderbolts at first. They stated that it was impossible to move men and vehicles during daylight, as the American and British navy fighters were constantly over head.
In total, VF-74 and VOF-1 Hellcats were credited with 8 aircraft, 17 tanks and armored vehicles, 825 trucks and wagons, 84 locomotives, 550 railroad cars and an estimated 7,000 German casualties. In exchange, 7 F6Fs were lost. Three to flak, one due to a ground explosion of an ammo truck (the blast severely damaged the low flying Hellcat), one to a collision with power lines (forced to ditch), and two to causes unknown. Two others ditched when they ran out of fuel. Four pilots were killed, one captured (but later escaped) and the rest recovered and returned to their respective ships.
So, if your Panzer gets whacked by an F6F "bomb****", it's at least historically accurate..... ;)
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Note that during the landings and the two weeks that followed, much of the air cover and air to ground missions were flown by Allied Naval aircraft.
Nine British and American CVEs provided 220 fighters. 97 Seafires, 71 Hellcats (F6F-5 and Hellcat Mk.I/F6F-3) and 52 Wildcats. The Seafires and Wildcats provided fleet air cover and supported ground operations near the coast. Most F6Fs, with far greater range than the other carrier types involved, flew inland interdiction sorties and patrolled for the Luftwaffe. Two Fw 190s were seen, but faced with at least six Hellcats, reversed course and skedaddled. No other German fighters made an appearance. Allied air superiority over southern France was ironclad.
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Great picture. Remarkably small tailwheel. Was that to do with deck landings?
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A cool little gold nugget of history you got there Widewing. Thanks for sharing! :aok
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Great picture. Remarkably small tailwheel. Was that to do with deck landings?
Yes, the small diameter, solid rubber tail wheel was for carrier duty. A somewhat larger, inflatable tire was used when assigned to shore operations.
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A cool little gold nugget of history you got there Widewing. Thanks for sharing! :aok
This story is almost unknown. Largely because the ETO show was centered on the Normandy invasion. Operation Dragoon didn't get much press at the time either. Yet, it was not a small operation. It resulted in the capture of generally intact major ports and added to the panic within the German forces. Coming immediately after the breakout of the American and British from the bocage country, Germany had insufficient forces in place to oppose the race north.
The Luftwaffe made an attempt to attack the large invasion fleet with bombers. However, the quantity of naval and air force fighters quickly made that suicidal during daylight. The Luftwaffe switched to night attacks, but their success was limited to the sinking of an LST with a radio controlled bomb dropped by a Ju 88. Allied night fighters were limited to a 7 plane detachment of F6F-3N fighters operating from Corsica. 4 other Ju 88s and He 111s were shot down by the massive anti-aircraft umbrella of the fleet, whose radar directed guns were almost as effective at night as during daylight.
The invasion was also supported by the full weight of the XII Tactical Air Command. To get an idea of size of the forces involved, you can find the full order of battle on a wiki page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon_order_of_battle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon_order_of_battle)
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Hellcats of U.S. Navy fighter Squadron VF-74 returning from a busy day of combat operations over southern France, taxi forward on Kasaan Bay.
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t31.0-8/856919_10203764413136178_236466156149196634_o.jpg)
One VOF-1 Hellcat shot down two He 111s and a pair of Ju 52s, on two separate days, flown by two different pilots. It was adorned with four victory markings.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6a28/3fjku1ht32htqyvfg.jpg)
You can read about some of the Naval air ops during Dragoon in a history.navy.mil PDF document here: http://www.history.navy.mil/download/ww2-30.pdf (http://www.history.navy.mil/download/ww2-30.pdf)
A scale model of the early build VOF-1 F6F-5, White 8 with the correct small windows....
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t112/bertno/Hellcat/DSC01509.jpg)
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:aok :aok
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Wide,
I'm curious did any of the F6F's carry the 20mm guns? I know they were fitted to the night fighters but I thought maybe the brits kept the 20mm in their Cats.
Several years ago I looked for any pix that would show the cannons mounted on the F6f's and although I found some nightfighters with them I never was able to find any others.
So if you happen to have any imfo on this I'm all ears.... :devil
:salute
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Wide,
I'm curious did any of the F6F's carry the 20mm guns? I know they were fitted to the night fighters but I thought maybe the brits kept the 20mm in their Cats.
Several years ago I looked for any pix that would show the cannons mounted on the F6f's and although I found some nightfighters with them I never was able to find any others.
So if you happen to have any imfo on this I'm all ears.... :devil
:salute
I think it came up in one of the other threads that only the -5N and -3N night fighters were ever equipped with cannon. This applied to the Royal Navy 'Cats as well. No day fighter variants of the Hellcat ever carried the cannon operationally (I think the wing was designed to accommodate them but that's as close as it got).
Considering the hard-on people have for slapping cannon on an aircraft in the game if there's even a hint of a mention of it MAYBE having ever been used, I'm pretty sure evidence of day fighters carrying cannon operationally would have posted a LONG time ago, and subsequently caused a storm of wishlist requests for it as a load option in the hangar (see the requests for 20mm on the Mustang that keeps popping up).
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Wide,
I'm curious did any of the F6F's carry the 20mm guns? I know they were fitted to the night fighters but I thought maybe the brits kept the 20mm in their Cats.
Several years ago I looked for any pix that would show the cannons mounted on the F6f's and although I found some nightfighters with them I never was able to find any others.
So if you happen to have any imfo on this I'm all ears.... :devil
:salute
F6F-5Ns were delivered with two 20mm cannon installed inboard. Initially, they proved unreliable. Some gunners mates worked on them and improved reliability. The majority were simply removed and replaced with Browning .50 MGs. A secondary issue was excessive muzzle flash. Again, some units machined better flash hiders, but others installed the Brownings. If HTC models the F6F-5N, then I can see the 20mm option being available. F6F-3Ns had the standard 6 MGs.
F6F-5N with cannons
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4d1a/d4hgy7a9f4dj8pzfg.jpg)
F6F-5N with only MGs. Note exhaust flame baffle.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b631/hkz8jdpccdpn7dsfg.jpg)
F6F-3N. Standard armament. For some reason, this aircraft and the one behind it have F6F-5 windscreens fitted. I'm not yet sure if this was a factory installation or a field mod.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31.0-8/1782500_10203768758364806_7595574023210266548_o.jpg)
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Wide,
I know they were fitted to the night fighters but I thought maybe the brits kept the 20mm in their Cats.
The British evaluation of the American built Hispanos is interesting. The finish was far better than the British built Hispanos, but because the chamber modifications the British had done to theirs wasn't applied to the American guns they found the American made guns unsuitable for service due to the jamming rate on them.
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WW,
Thanks for posting this - very interesting. I did not know that LTG Patch had overall command (it appears he did). The Kaserne I work at is named after LTG Patch and was home to the Seventh Army for many years after the war.
The house I lease is less than 200 meters from the front gate of Patch Barracks. My landlord was a small boy and lived on this very land when the Seventh Army arrived in 1945. He tells me an American soldier gave him his very first piece of chewing gum the day they arrived. When my landlord built the house I lease, instead of installing a modern concrete driveway, he used stones from the tank path connecting then Kurmärker Kaserne (now Patch Barracks) and Panzer Kaserne. Kurmärker Kaserne was the HQ for the 7th Panzer Regiment. Panzer Kaserne, located 5 kilometers from Kurmärker, was the training area.
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WW,
Thanks for posting this - very interesting. I did not know that LTG Patch had overall command (it appears he did). The Kaserne I work at is named after LTG Patch and was home to the Seventh Army for many years after the war.
The house I lease is less than 200 meters from the front gate of Patch Barracks. My landlord was a small boy and lived on this very land when the Seventh Army arrived in 1945. He tells me an American soldier gave him his very first piece of chewing gum the day they arrived. When my landlord built the house I lease, instead of installing a modern concrete driveway, he used stones from the tank path connecting then Kurmärker Kaserne (now Patch Barracks) and Panzer Kaserne. Kurmärker Kaserne was the HQ for the 7th Panzer Regiment. Panzer Kaserne, located 5 kilometers from Kurmärker, was the training area.
Ammo,
I was stationed at Patch from 1990-1993. It was a good duty station and a beautiful area to live in. My brother was also stationed there a few years ago. I loved that area.
Rob
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Ammo,
I was stationed at Patch from 1990-1993. It was a good duty station and a beautiful area to live in. My brother was also stationed there a few years ago. I loved that area.
Rob
Rob, I completely agree. This has been the best duty station my family has had. We have taken full advantage of it and traveled all over Europe and enjoyed the local area too. Just last night we whooped it up at the Bad Cannstadt Volksfest :rock :rock
I tell the junior troops that arrive to get out of the barracks and enjoy this place.
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WW, thanks for all the badass photos.
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WW, thanks for all the badass photos.
You are most welcome... Here's a few more.
VF-37 Hellcat (F6F-3)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31.0-8/1913427_10203763311228631_2034206285340769525_o.jpg)
Ens Jim Schiller of VF-5 on USS Yorktown powers up for takeoff. Ensigns usually got the rattiest plane in the squadron. Schiller was no exception. This photo was originally published in Life magazine.
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t31.0-8/902420_10203724699823370_7854187017489139640_o.jpg)
Here's an interesting sequence, showing why you can't lower elevators during a recovery (landing) evolution. In this case, aboard a CVE.
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/taylg/decks-5.jpg~original)
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31.0-8/1961889_10203728074347731_2289691849372394827_o.jpg)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/taylg/decks-5b.jpg~original)
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Didn't some FAA Hellcats see some action off Norway?
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Didn't some FAA Hellcats see some action off Norway?
Yes, and Wildcats too. Ops against the Tirpitz.
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Did they see any combat against Luftwaffe units stationed in Norway or was this too far out to sea?
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Did they see any combat against Luftwaffe units stationed in Norway or was this too far out to sea?
Norway based Luftwaffe units. On May 8, 1944, 18 Hellcat Is (from 800 squadron on the escort carriers Emperor and Searcher) were escorting a squadron of Barracudas on a strike mission at 10,000 feet. They were bounced by Bf 109s and Fw 190s of JG 5. Approximately 25 German fighters were involved. Two Hellcats went down in the first attack. However, the Hellcats recovered and shot down two Bf 109s and one Fw 190. A few days later, the same Hellcats from 800 Squadron shot down two Heinkels trying to locate the British CVEs.
Hellcat from 800 sqdrn land aboard Emperor...
(http://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o679/Mark_Allen_M3/Royal%20Navy/F6FHellcatIaircraftlandingontheflightdeckofHMSEmperoroftheRoyalNavyfrom800Squadron1944_zps32ad0eaf.jpg)
Another view of the Hellcats on Emperor..
(http://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o679/Mark_Allen_M3/Royal%20Navy/F6FHellcatIaircraftontheflightdeckofHMSEmperoroftheRoyalNavyfrom800Squadron1944-3_zps6a2490a2.jpg)
In formation....
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Grumman_Hellcats_of_No.1840_Naval_Air_Squadron_based_at_RNAS_Eglinton_in_Northern_Ireland,_23_June_1944._A24533.jpg)
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Hellcats vs Nazis, just great.
I think the Hellcat is becoming my favorite WW2 bird after seeing this.
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Hellcats vs Nazis, just great.
I think the Hellcat is becoming my favorite WW2 bird after seeing this.
Storch, of all people, designed an AvA Tirpitz setup, with Corsairs and Hellcats on carriers against shore-based 109s and 190s. It was quite a lot of fun, and presented some very interesting match-ups.
- oldman
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Sounds like a lot of fun!
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Storch, of all people, designed an AvA Tirpitz setup, with Corsairs and Hellcats on carriers against shore-based 109s and 190s. It was quite a lot of fun, and presented some very interesting match-ups.
- oldman
Whatever happened to Storch?
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Storch, of all people, designed an AvA Tirpitz setup, with Corsairs and Hellcats on carriers against shore-based 109s and 190s. It was quite a lot of fun, and presented some very interesting match-ups.
- oldman
I think we ran that one year in FSO...
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Very nice post... Do I see a two gun load out on the very first picture?
Edit: actually looks like the muzzles on the guns are capped, the third not protruding from the wing is simply covered... Did this prevent corrosion I assume?
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Storch, of all people, designed an AvA Tirpitz setup, with Corsairs and Hellcats on carriers against shore-based 109s and 190s. It was quite a lot of fun, and presented some very interesting match-ups.
- oldman
That set up was a blast, remember shooting storchita down over and over many times in my British skinned F6.
:D
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Very nice post... Do I see a two gun load out on the very first picture?
Edit: actually looks like the muzzles on the guns are capped, the third not protruding from the wing is simply covered... Did this prevent corrosion I assume?
Yeah, it kept FOD out of the gun muzzles. However, the primary purpose was to show that the guns were loaded. When it returned, a simple glance would tell the armorers if the guns had been fired.
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Same with the red cloth the RAF glued over the gun ports on their fighters.
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Same with the red cloth the RAF glued over the gun ports on their fighters.
Yup,I was told by an old RCAF guy that when I saw the guns were taped I knew I was good to go!
:salute
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Here's an interesting sequence, showing why you can't lower elevators during a recovery (landing) evolution. In this case, aboard a CVE.
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/taylg/decks-5.jpg~original)
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31.0-8/1961889_10203728074347731_2289691849372394827_o.jpg)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/taylg/decks-5b.jpg~original)
I would suggest this guy dropping into the open elevator had a few choice words for whomever lowered it. You can almost see the WTF moment in pic 2.
It'd be like pulling into your garage and there being a 20 foot deep hole.
Hope he survived!
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That set up was a blast, remember shooting storchita down over and over many times in my British skinned F6.
:D
bravo. ;)
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I would suggest this guy dropping into the open elevator had a few choice words for whomever lowered it. You can almost see the WTF moment in pic 2.
It'd be like pulling into your garage and there being a 20 foot deep hole.
Hope he survived!
The pilot was uninjured....
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... but pissed!