Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Someguy63 on May 06, 2014, 11:50:52 PM
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I've had excessive amounts of suckage and epic fails with this lately. :old:
Either I seem to add too much lead or too little, or I can't tell at all because the tracers from that round are hidden in the mix of the MG's.
That little glowing circle , pretty ornament thingy is not used by me, even if the little markers on the sides and top/bottom are supposed to help. :old:
First of all, for the people who are great shots with it, what convergence do you have it set? I have yet to find a home. :cry
:salute
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First of all, for the people who are great shots with it, what convergence do you have it set?
650 yards but I'm an anomoly.
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set it to 350 and never fire MGs at the same time as the 30mm
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set it to 350 and never fire MGs at the same time as the 30mm
I thought so, just switched it from 350 to 375. However, with the lack of a joystick, I have to stick to firing both since I use my right hand on the mouse, and left on keyboard controls. And since a lot of shots require rudder, my left hand is usually occupied, and moving a finger to the 'B' key would be difficult to not mess myself up(too late for the shot) Maybe the possible excessive amount of lead I use would change to some degree if I change convergence for MG's from 650 to 350?
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The Mk108 was historicaly effective at 250m max : over 250m, the balistic becomes very unstable, like ingame.
By setting the convergence at 275 yards -as i do-, and the MGs at 300 yards, i manage to land 80%+ ammo on a target.
You should try these convergences and experiment them in training arena : set different buttons for the MK108/MGs
and fire the 30mm only first : you'll be able to confirm its specific balistic, then the MGs one.
After a few kills in training arena, set a button for both Mk108/MGs and do some more kills in it : modify the MGs convergence untill it fits you :
this should give you the perfect convergence that reflects your way of attacking an enemy plane ! :)
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The Mk108 was historicaly effective at 250m max : over 250m, the balistic becomes very unstable, like ingame.
By setting the convergence at 275 yards -as i do-, and the MGs at 300 yards, i manage to land 80%+ ammo on a target.
You should try these convergences and experiment them in training arena : set different buttons for the MK108/MGs
and fire the 30mm only first : you'll be able to confirm its specific balistic, then the MGs one.
After a few kills in training arena, set a button for both Mk108/MGs and do some more kills in it : modify the MGs convergence untill it fits you :
this should give you the perfect convergence that reflects your way of attacking an enemy plane ! :)
Yeah, this time I'll definitely practice using different settings before heading to the MA and realizing it's utter poo :old:
But, is there anyway possible, i can set secondary weapon so that it can be fired by pressing the scroll button on top of a mouse? :headscratch:
:salute
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But, is there anyway possible, i can set secondary weapon so that it can be fired by pressing the scroll button on top of a mouse? :headscratch:
If you go into the map controllers section of the clipboard, you can double-click any button, and if it's detected properly as a button, the assignment menu should pop up. If so, you should be able to program the scroll wheel button for whatever you want.
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If you go into the map controllers section of the clipboard, you can double-click any button, and if it's detected properly as a button, the assignment menu should pop up. If so, you should be able to program the scroll wheel button for whatever you want.
I'll try it later today, thanks!
:salute
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My humble thoughts... After flying the k4 for a while now....
When I am in level flight and in a relaxed get state. My head in the normal position and my sight is dead center of the sight retinal if I shoot my 30 mill the round will be at the top of the planes nose at or around 300-400. The very bottom of the "glass" where the sight is displayed upon. And where the very top of the nose of the aircraft meet. Is about how much drop is involved with a level relaxed G state shot.
When I am lining up a shot I use the top of the nose as a guide for lining up shots on my bandits. If they are just in the very bottom of the glass square which displays my sight AT or AROUND 300-400 indicated yards away.
As a visual guide I stack 2 air planes on top of each other and shoot at the third one on the bottom.
Edit. Track IR is great because I can raise my head and see the shot better.
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You can also go offline and use the .target command to set a giant target up at different ranges to see the impact of convergence and distance.
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My humble thoughts... After flying the k4 for a while now....
When I am in level flight and in a relaxed get state. My head in the normal position and my sight is dead center of the sight retinal if I shoot my 30 mill the round will be at the top of the planes nose at or around 300-400. The very bottom of the "glass" where the sight is displayed upon. And where the very top of the nose of the aircraft meet. Is about how much drop is involved with a level relaxed G state shot.
When I am lining up a shot I use the top of the nose as a guide for lining up shots on my bandits. If they are just in the very bottom of the glass square which displays my sight AT or AROUND 300-400 indicated yards away.
As a visual guide I stack 2 air planes on top of each other and shoot at the third one on the bottom.
Edit. Track IR is great because I can raise my head and see the shot better.
You can also go offline and use the .target command to set a giant target up at different ranges to see the impact of convergence and distance.
Nice, both of these are useful!
Setting convergence to 350.
Get the scroll button to work for secondary weapons.
Remember Deadstik's and Lucifer's method while practicing.
Go kick butt. :D
:salute
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If you go into the map controllers section of the clipboard, you can double-click any button, and if it's detected properly as a button, the assignment menu should pop up. If so, you should be able to program the scroll wheel button for whatever you want.
Nailed it, works like a charm! :aok
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I think the more experienced muppets ACM their opponents into a low E or stalled condition. Then shoot them from close range while not having to account for much lead allowance by a moving target.
Very few of you talk about the problems with MK108 dispersion and how it's modeled randomly in the game. Hitech is a tad generous with the dispersion. Still if you let fly 3 rounds, maybe one fly's on target maybe not. The reason for being as close as possible and why you hear complaints about not hitting from dead 6 chase shots very easily.
MK108 500m\sec Dispersion at range.
Real Life (m) -------------- Game (yd)
100m dis 3.2m(10.5ft)----109yd dis 4ft
200m dis 4.3m(14ft)------218yd dis 9.8ft
300m dis 6.7m(22ft)------328yd dis 14.7ft
400m dis 9.4m(31ft)------437yd dis 23.6ft
500m dis 12.2m(40ft).----547yd dis 33ft
600m dis 15.2m(50ft).----656yd dis 39ft
By the way, after finding a drop off at the end of a runway to level a K4 visa the artfHorz with the convergence set to 150. Then adjusting the nose below level to allow for the cannon barrel being tilted up through the engine block instead of the historic mounted dead zero inline with the engine. The drops I recorded at all of the above ranges required about a 519-520m\sec round. This round never existed in WW2 for the MK108 but, acts somewhat like a prototype for the MG213C.
The Mauser MG213C 30mm revolver cannon would have fired a MK108 round in the 520m-530m\sec range taking advantage of the MK108 ammo in production without having to retool. It never made it into the war but, became the foundation for our modern ADEN revolver cannon systems.
All MK108 rounds were set at 500m\sec, from testing of the propellant temperature tolerances and gun jamming from -60c to +80c. A range was found to which 500m\sec was the norm while at -60c, 487m\sec could still cycle the receiver, and at +80c 511m\sec didn't cause jams. The ammo bin did not sit in a sauna of 176f air to try and achieve 511m\sec let alone 519-520. The ammo was affected by the outside air temp at alt. The reason for testing at -60c to +80c was to ensure the gun would cycle while covering the possible conditions the ammo might be exposed to.
This cannon was intended for shooting slow level flying bombers, not fighters during G induced ACM maneuvering. By late 44 and 45, Germany was more worried about shooting down bombers than fighters. Armament was a reflection of this concern. The K4 like the Ta152 were high speed bomber interceptors. The G6/U4 and G14/U4 were bomber interceptor packages.
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In AH the mv on the Mk 108 set at 1650 FPS I.E. 502.92 MPS.
HiTech
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I think the more experienced muppets ACM their opponents into a low E or stalled condition. Then shoot them from close range while not having to account for much lead allowance by a moving target.
Very few of you talk about the problems with MK108 dispersion and how it's modeled randomly in the game. Hitech is a tad generous with the dispersion. Still if you let fly 3 rounds, maybe one fly's on target maybe not. The reason for being as close as possible and why you hear complaints about not hitting from dead 6 chase shots very easily.
MK108 500m\sec Dispersion at range.
Real Life (m) -------------- Game (yd)
100m dis 3.2m(10.5ft)----109yd dis 4ft
200m dis 4.3m(14ft)------218yd dis 9.8ft
300m dis 6.7m(22ft)------328yd dis 14.7ft
400m dis 9.4m(31ft)------437yd dis 23.6ft
500m dis 12.2m(40ft).----547yd dis 33ft
600m dis 15.2m(50ft).----656yd dis 39ft
By the way, after finding a drop off at the end of a runway to level a K4 visa the artfHorz with the convergence set to 150. Then adjusting the nose below level to allow for the cannon barrel being tilted up through the engine block instead of the historic mounted dead zero inline with the engine. The drops I recorded at all of the above ranges required about a 519-520m\sec round. This round never existed in WW2 for the MK108 but, acts somewhat like a prototype for the MG213C.
The Mauser MG213C 30mm revolver cannon would have fired a MK108 round in the 520m-530m\sec range taking advantage of the MK108 ammo in production without having to retool. It never made it into the war but, became the foundation for our modern ADEN revolver cannon systems.
All MK108 rounds were set at 500m\sec, from testing of the propellant temperature tolerances and gun jamming from -60c to +80c. A range was found to which 500m\sec was the norm while at -60c, 487m\sec could still cycle the receiver, and at +80c 511m\sec didn't cause jams. The ammo bin did not sit in a sauna of 176f air to try and achieve 511m\sec let alone 519-520. The ammo was affected by the outside air temp at alt. The reason for testing at -60c to +80c was to ensure the gun would cycle while covering the possible conditions the ammo might be exposed to.
This cannon was intended for shooting slow level flying bombers, not fighters during G induced ACM maneuvering. By late 44 and 45, Germany was more worried about shooting down bombers than fighters. Armament was a reflection of this concern. The K4 like the Ta152 were high speed bomber interceptors. The G6/U4 and G14/U4 were bomber interceptor packages.
I set my convergence at 400. I've tried 350 but the bullets drop a lil too early. 400 is the right amount of push to keep the bullet more flat In the air. Really and truely the key to being a good shot with the 30mm is to get good angles on your opponent. In other words, use throttle and rudder to get the nose to consistanlty be out in front of your opponent (especially when you are diving on someone). You really have to put your nose where they are gonna fly and time the shot as they pass. Also as bustr said, I like flying in the defensive position, which is great for the 109s and 30mm. Get them to overshoot, lag roll them till they are slow on E and it makes it easy to get a nice shot on them as they float slowly past you. Use quick 2 second burst as well. It only takes one to ki them so tap the trigger instead of holding it down.
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30mm king Grizz's recommendation; 350
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Still think 400 is better :p
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I've set it to 350, had good success with it yesterday, made some pretty good shots. :banana:
The today I logged on, upped meh K4, and I was utter poo once again. :old: :bhead
I'm good enough a pilot to get into a decent position for a shot at least once most fight, but I always end up moving around with rudder too much at the last second and there is lack of steadiness for a hit. That or the lead problem comes to play again. As I'm supposed to, I fire in short 2-3 bullet burst in the K4 and most times their all rounds with no tracers. And because of this I have a lack of knowledge of where to usually aim.
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By setting the convergence at 275 yards -as i do-, and the MGs at 300 yards, i manage to land 80%+ ammo on a target.
Really? Then why's your fighter hit% typically between 5.5%-7.5%?
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Use my Conv, dont shoot utill under 200y and u'll see u cant miss such a close tgt !
If possible, come from under with speed, cut engine at 1200y and enjoy the fireworks ! :rock
I've set it to 350, had good success with it yesterday, made some pretty good shots. :banana:
The today I logged on, upped meh K4, and I was utter poo once again. :old: :bhead
I'm good enough a pilot to get into a decent position for a shot at least once most fight, but I always end up moving around with rudder too much at the last second and there is lack of steadiness for a hit. That or the lead problem comes to play again. As I'm supposed to, I fire in short 2-3 bullet burst in the K4 and most times their all rounds with no tracers. And because of this I have a lack of knowledge of where to usually aim.
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Use my Conv, dont shoot utill under 200y and u'll see u cant miss such a close tgt !
If possible, come from under with speed, cut engine at 1200y and enjoy the fireworks ! :rock
I'm gonna have to stick to 350, I've better success with that convergence compared to when I try others. And the problem for me is not dead six attacks…but rather the short opportunities to fire during fights involving complex ACM's.
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.Target, training arena (center area of the target).
Ty for ur post, i guess u could help... :huh
Really? Then why's your fighter hit% typically between 5.5%-7.5%?
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Think the best response ive ever seen was...."watch where they are gonna fly...and aim half a sector in front of them...then take the shot, works everytime"!
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.Target, training arena (center area of the target).
Ty for ur post, i guess u could help... :huh
I think the point is if people can't believe what you say about your hit percentage (which is easy to check) why would people believe what you say about anything else you might post?
It's your reputation, build it as you want.
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The today I logged on, upped meh K4, and I was utter poo once again.
The K4 is such a torque BEAST even auto trim doesnt level it out well for me, tater shooting-wise. Im starting to use manual trim exclusively for this BEAST! It tend to fight you even on auto-trim so Im going to manually trim and see if my taters become more accurate. You really have to be trim for accurate shooting.
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Rich, try setting a hotas button to "auto trim on/off toggle" when flying the K4. I have the elevator and aileron trim on a hat, the rudder on another. I don't really need anything but the elevator trim and the "auto trim on/off" while fighting in the K4. I agree, once Wep is on, having auto trim on isn't the best option, so as soon as I get into a fight, I just hit the auto trim off toggle button, and the only thing I really need at most speeds is the elevator trim, and even that is infrequent enough. When I need to, even in a fight, I can flick auto trim back on for an instant, it'll trim me out for whatever speed I'm now at, then flick it off just as quickly again, so to not have it mess up any shots I may have to take with the 30mm.
That's how I was shown to do it by Fester, and it's always worked well for me.
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Edit. Misread Gman. He's talking about Combat Trim. :D
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30mm is the knuckleball of ACM. It's slow, it wobbles, and it's deadly if it's in the strike zone.
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One thing with the Mk108 has kinda been touched on but I haven't seen it spelled out yet, is to unload the airframe for the shot. Think of it as timing a rifle shot. you're not swinging with the target but placing your barrel in the line of the target and timing the shot to coincide when the target passes. In other words fly in lead persuit for your shot and , roll your aircraft where where your target will cross from your wingtip to wingtip (largest field of view on a K4), unload the airframe and take your shot as the target passes. Having your forward cockpit view as far back as possible helps in timing the shot as well, as you have a larger sight picture.
I agree with the others, in that concentrate on the Mk 108 alone at first, practice in the TA or offline by emptying all the MG's on the runway and run the 30mm alone until you start to get the proper sight picture.
:salute
BigRat
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Grizz wrote a great thread once upon a time with pictures as well, saying precisely that Big Rat, and it's what I've always used since the days of the G10/G6 30mm. You want to set up shots just like BR said, with the target passing in front of you, preferably with his wings full profile so the largest possible target is available, but that's not always possible. Either way unloading, or even just slightly positive G will improve your shooting with it.
Grizz also wrote how to use the torque of the K4 to simplify getting into the position of using the 30mm, and getting those perfect crossing/tracking shot solutions. I'll try and find it.
Edit - found it after a few mins of screwing around.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.0.html
This thread, by far and away, will help anyone using the 30mm, if you apply what's there. Take note of what I mentioned about a little positive G at the "unload" phase, I remembered it from learning it from Grizz in this thread, and it gives you a huge advantage in making little adjustments as needed for lining up the shot. Take note of Mace saying this is almost precisely how he taught setting up crossing/gun shots at Topgun. Higher praise can't be given IMO, as I said, Grizz did an excellent job on this post about 5 years ago now. Seems like yesterday when I first read it.
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Grizz wrote a great thread once upon a time with pictures as well, saying precisely that Big Rat, and it's what I've always used since the days of the G10/G6 30mm. You want to set up shots just like BR said, with the target passing in front of you, preferably with his wings full profile so the largest possible target is available, but that's not always possible. Either way unloading, or even just slightly positive G will improve your shooting with it.
Grizz also wrote how to use the torque of the K4 to simplify getting into the position of using the 30mm, and getting those perfect crossing/tracking shot solutions. I'll try and find it.
Gman,
I learned a lot of that from watching Grizz's videos actually. Not that I'm a great shot with the MK 108, but those videos deffinitly helped me out a lot.
:salute
BigRat
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Yeah I do have combat trim mapped. I also have manual trim for elevator mapped on a wheel to make it easy to trim myself. The the K4 is the only fighter i actually really need it for.
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You're probably doing everything "right" then already. Like I've said, if you're not already doing it the way Grizz describes, or at least trying as often as you can to set up shots that way from the link, give it a whirl - I found it works well with almost any guns, but particularly with the 30mm.
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Grizz wrote a great thread once upon a time with pictures as well, saying precisely that Big Rat, and it's what I've always used since the days of the G10/G6 30mm. You want to set up shots just like BR said, with the target passing in front of you, preferably with his wings full profile so the largest possible target is available, but that's not always possible. Either way unloading, or even just slightly positive G will improve your shooting with it.
Grizz also wrote how to use the torque of the K4 to simplify getting into the position of using the 30mm, and getting those perfect crossing/tracking shot solutions. I'll try and find it.
Edit - found it after a few mins of screwing around.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.0.html
This thread, by far and away, will help anyone using the 30mm, if you apply what's there. Take note of what I mentioned about a little positive G at the "unload" phase, I remembered it from learning it from Grizz in this thread, and it gives you a huge advantage in making little adjustments as needed for lining up the shot. Take note of Mace saying this is almost precisely how he taught setting up crossing/gun shots at Topgun. Higher praise can't be given IMO, as I said, Grizz did an excellent job on this post about 5 years ago now. Seems like yesterday when I first read it.
Thanks a lot for the link :)
:salute
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When i write "DOT TARGET in TRAINING area", there is a (slight) possibility im talking about the circle u can spawn at specific degrees to test your weapons convergence.
I never said i landed 80% of my hits on an enemy flying plane.
What bothers me here is that some people can't help posting messages to ennoy others (this one was nicely sneaky), even in a damn training/help channel.
And for my reputation, i need no internet forums vigilante for it : believe me, my "@-reputation", i dont give a **** about it : i know who i am and
i don't care to know what others may think about this "reputation".
But Thank you, have a nice @-day ! :aok
I think the point is if people can't believe what you say about your hit percentage (which is easy to check) why would people believe what you say about anything else you might post?
It's your reputation, build it as you want.
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Sorry bud, just trying to help, but if you don't care, I certainly don't either.
Have a nice day.
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By setting the convergence at 275 yards -as i do-, and the MGs at 300 yards, i manage to land 80%+ ammo on a target.
:uhoh
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Lucifer, I wouldn't take that very personally if I were you, Fugitive is the least vindictive person I've met on this BBS. Cartoons and all.
I think the issue may be more that you may be getting 80% success in terms of killing your targets, or winning fights, but nobody in this game can honestly land 80 percent of their ammunition on target when fighting other planes. That's virtually impossible. That's all that was being pointed out I think.
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.target= dot target in training area= a static target you can spawn by typing ".target + range",
which allows u to see where you r ammo lands at different convergences. :pray
Lucifer, I wouldn't take that very personally if I were you, Fugitive is the least vindictive person I've met on this BBS. Cartoons and all.
I think the issue may be more that you may be getting 80% success in terms of killing your targets, or winning fights, but nobody in this game can honestly land 80 percent of their ammunition on target when fighting other planes. That's virtually impossible. That's all that was being pointed out I think.
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Wasn't aimed at u.
S!
Sorry bud, just trying to help, but if you don't care, I certainly don't either.
Have a nice day.
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Wasn't aimed at u.
S!
No, it was me.
Here's the part of your quote that grabbed my attention:
By setting the convergence at 275 yards -as i do-, and the MGs at 300 yards, i manage to land 80%+ ammo on a target.
It wasn't clear at all that you were saying 80% on a static target in the TA which is why I questioned it.
There's no need to get defensive. I simply asked a question and all you had to do was explain (or not).
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Lag times and arena population is one of the biggest issues in my opinion.
As I fly EU timezone, there are days when I fly between 5 and 9 pm, I hit quite well with the 30 mm. Yet, after 10 pm, or, when arena tops about 200 people, the issues start stacking up.
Strange enough, as soon as arenas top about 300 it feels getting better?! :uhoh But that is my personal view.
Not only in a dogfight but also versus Lancasters or any other form of 4 engine buff.
When I see 3 to 5 big splashes on a rudder of a Lancaster or below the cockpit I expect some damage.
When I want to send film to Skuzzy, is it okay I have watched it first or does it render the film useless? :headscratch:
Most important things to me regarding the 30 mm:
I. Try not to fire simultaniously 30 mm / 12.7 mm, except on bombers
II. Learn the grizz way. It just works.
III. Analyse your shooting on film, very slow motion, check the range when you open fire. Does it fit with your convergence?
IV. Tracers off. To me it works as you try to learn the gun and the plane and don't do erratic stuff because you see your tracers all over the place.
V. Stick with the gun!!! One day in WW I arena and my 30 mm aim ( if I have any ) is absent for 2 weeks. A day in a Dora cost me a week. It's that bad....... :lol
VI. Unload your plane! Let the engine do the work to pull the lead you need.
VII. Be patient and get close. Really close. When you take damage due to your own round exploding is just about right. I like to get within 200 yds or less, preferably at speeds that allow flaps.
Carry on.
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Lag times have no impact on your ability to hit anyone. It does impact the amount of time it might take for that remote player to appear to die.
As long as you are sending the native film (.ahf file) and you have not tampered with it (cut it up), then it will contain the information we need to debug it.
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Thanks Skuzzy, will send the film.
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I was flying last night for a bit and also forgot to mention, if you typically aim high and/or over lead targets, set 350 convergence. If you aim on average low and tend to shoot under planes or not lead enough use 400. I use the latter because I shoot low and it helps boost the bullet a lil higher.
It really is all about timing and using angles to get your nose in the position to shoot where they are about to fly.
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I was flying last night for a bit and also forgot to mention, if you typically aim high and/or over lead targets, set 350 convergence. If you aim on average low and tend to shoot under planes or not lead enough use 400. I use the latter because I shoot low and it helps boost the bullet a lil higher.
It really is all about timing and using angles to get your nose in the position to shoot where they are about to fly.
Yup I completely understand. I improved a bit last night because I had auto trim turned off. I think I saw this suggestion in the link above - that 30mm crossing shot thread by Grizz - and that seemed to help.
:salute