Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Tinkles on May 11, 2014, 06:00:49 PM
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I've seen a handful of topics where someone has asked for help on gunnery tips. Most common two are the 30mm and the 50 cal (which is normally followed by a new post in the wishlist forum for increased 50cal damage). Since I can't fly online until I get my new rig, I wanted to make a few gunnery films just flying offline shooting at drones.
When I get my new rig, and the new terrain engine comes out. I will give a 3-5 minute gunnery film on each and every fighter in the game. Giving convergence details, gunsight details (and if I use a specific one a link to download it), and the download link for each film. If the gunsight I used in the film isn't in the default gunsights, then I will post a link of that gunsight as well by the related film. When that happens, I hope that Skuzzy stickies it . :D
In the mean time, here is a 'rough draft/prologue' of what I plan to do.
109-K4
Convergence 250
Gunsight Revi 16
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2k4ywshbsjwdb3d/109K4_Gunnery_-_Tinkles.ahf
F4U1A
Convergence 275
Gunsight Default
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8aa6vn7zlynr31o/F4U1A_Gunnery_-_Tinkles.ahf
P38G
Convergence 650
Gunsight Default
http://www.mediafire.com/download/y25tltno5o64vx5/P38G_Gunnery_-_Tinkles.ahf
P51-D
Convergence 300
Gunsight Default
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ada4at6ia1ds7q0/P51D_Gunnery_-_Tinkles.ahf
If you guys have any requests in the mean time, I will be more than happy to do it for ya. :aok Gotta do something while I want for my new rig. :cool:
:cheers:
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Is this a good idea? Since p51, p47 fm2 etc are all 50 cal, wouldn't it be better to just do the caliber or weapon type?
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Gunnery on the drones isn't the same as with the online play. Droves fly about half the speed and don't maneuver much. Figuring the lead in the TA, or off line against the drones is easy, just turn on the lead computing site.
OTOH, if your having fun doing them, keep at it! :D
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A basic demonstration video might still help, but maybe you could get a buddy to go at you in the DA, so you can film the sorties and show what high speed shooting is like.
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Fair enough, guess I'll wait til I get my new rig in a few weeks. :cheers:
Thanks for the responses.
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Gunnery on the drones isn't the same as with the online play. Droves fly about half the speed and don't maneuver much. Figuring the lead in the TA, or off line against the drones is easy, just turn on the lead computing site.
OTOH, if your having fun doing them, keep at it! :D
It doesn't really matter.
His Mk8 gunsight is 100Mil. I used Hitech's 1Mil = 2pixel format when I constructed the Mk8 you see in Tinkle's film. So just like real world pilots, you are on the hook for estimating your target's speed if they are traveling 60-90 degrees across your front and you want to take a snap shot. Anything else and you are in some variation of a tail chase pulling 2G or less. You will have generally synced your speeds while deflection will be more of your worry if you haven't exceeded 2G in your turn.
Remember the definition for the 100mph gunsight ring? 50Mil equals the distance traveled right to left by your target at 100mph 1000ft in front of you.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/50MilRadii.jpg)
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But thats what I mean. Practice is about building a library of site pictures. If your site pictures are all based on 200 mph your going to be shooting behind everything.
Now if he did a video explaining how your sites work and how to figure the speeds and such then using the 200 drones wouldn't be a problem.
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Fugi,
If you cannot load up one of those gunsights knowing the 50Mil radius = 100mph left to right at 333yards. Then extrapolate up 300-350 mph. Or down 200-250mph. And you have the LCG offline gunnery aid........
A film will not tell you anything more than that screen capture I modified. Pilots read the manuals, listened to lectures, then shot at drones with a 70Mil ring, towed along at, Oh my gosh...200-250mph stateside. Then spent less than an hour shooting in a P40 with a 100Mil ring at the same 200-250mph towed target. Then at their duty station, the CO told them with the 100Mil ring to increase their lead to 3-31\2 radius and not shoot until inside of 300.
The only way to get what you really want, is to wish list Hitech to change how fast and what patterns the drones fly offline. In essence, that's what your combat duty station did to you and the enemy shot back. Like going into the MA after practicing offline.
Offline because the drones are slower than average MA combat speeds, you hold longer in near 2G turns for a perfect sight picture. In the MA many miss shooting the same sight picture from offline because they run into 2G faster and either were not aware of it or never saddled up soon enough to have a "shot window" before 2G in the turn. And then there is the whole other world of shooting with inline mounted guns.
Honestly this is why gyroscopic lead sights were being developed by all sides at the end of the war. And why Germany and Russia taught 200m as the longest range for fighter to fighter shooting. No matter how many classes, hours of target shooting and time in combat, roughly about 39% could hit anything in air to air combat because they had a natural ability to start with. Or as the AAF found from gun cam review, they shot sub 400yds.
Did you even download my latest gunsight pack to peek at the gunnery manuals Fugi? Tinkles didn't do anyone a favor by turning off the range icon for the Drones.
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Fugi,
If you cannot load up one of those gunsights knowing the 50Mil radius = 100mph left to right at 333yards. Then extrapolate up 300-350 mph. Or down 200-250mph. And you have the LCG offline gunnery aid........
A film will not tell you anything more than that screen capture I modified. Pilots read the manuals, listened to lectures, then shot at drones with a 70Mil ring, towed along at, Oh my gosh...200-250mph stateside. Then spent less than an hour shooting in a P40 with a 100Mil ring at the same 200-250mph towed target. Then at their duty station, the CO told them with the 100Mil ring to increase their lead to 3-31\2 radius and not shoot until inside of 300.
The only way to get what you really want, is to wish list Hitech to change how fast and what patterns the drones fly offline. In essence, that's what your combat duty station did to you and the enemy shot back. Like going into the MA after practicing offline.
Offline because the drones are slower than average MA combat speeds, you hold longer in near 2G turns for a perfect sight picture. In the MA many miss shooting the same sight picture from offline because they run into 2G faster and either were not aware of it or never saddled up soon enough to have a "shot window" before 2G in the turn. And then there is the whole other world of shooting with inline mounted guns.
Honestly this is why gyroscopic lead sights were being developed by all sides at the end of the war. And why Germany and Russia taught 200m as the longest range for fighter to fighter shooting. No matter how many classes, hours of target shooting and time in combat, roughly about 39% could hit anything in air to air combat because they had a natural ability to start with. Or as the AAF found from gun cam review, they shot sub 400yds.
Did you even download my latest gunsight pack to peek at the gunnery manuals Fugi? Tinkles didn't do anyone a favor by turning off the range icon for the Drones.
You can turn icons on in the film viewer. Whether or not it turns on the range icon (or if they are the same thing) I am unsure of. :noid
I don't mind re-doing the films, I enjoy flying those planes. :D But if I did something wrong, or you think I should add/change something, then please do tell, I want these films to be helpful to newbies, not confusing or misleading.
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Or,
Put one of these 100Mil gunsights in your ride. Screen shot the default forward view. Zoom in a little. Then in an art program draw large rings. One extra for every 100mph or 50Mil. Sudenly you have your 300mph hold off picture for our game. Oh since the MK108 mm round is a 500m\sec round, your 100mph radii is really 60Mil. so you need to use a 120Mil base ring and work out by 60Mil radii. Don't you remember over the years being told to lead with the windscreen bars as your lead holdoff?
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/50MilSwSp.jpg)
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All well and good for the 50cals bustr.
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Fugi,
If you cannot load up one of those gunsights knowing the 50Mil radius = 100mph left to right at 333yards. Then extrapolate up 300-350 mph. Or down 200-250mph. And you have the LCG offline gunnery aid........
A film will not tell you anything more than that screen capture I modified. Pilots read the manuals, listened to lectures, then shot at drones with a 70Mil ring, towed along at, Oh my gosh...200-250mph stateside. Then spent less than an hour shooting in a P40 with a 100Mil ring at the same 200-250mph towed target. Then at their duty station, the CO told them with the 100Mil ring to increase their lead to 3-31\2 radius and not shoot until inside of 300.
The only way to get what you really want, is to wish list Hitech to change how fast and what patterns the drones fly offline. In essence, that's what your combat duty station did to you and the enemy shot back. Like going into the MA after practicing offline.
Offline because the drones are slower than average MA combat speeds, you hold longer in near 2G turns for a perfect sight picture. In the MA many miss shooting the same sight picture from offline because they run into 2G faster and either were not aware of it or never saddled up soon enough to have a "shot window" before 2G in the turn. And then there is the whole other world of shooting with inline mounted guns.
Honestly this is why gyroscopic lead sights were being developed by all sides at the end of the war. And why Germany and Russia taught 200m as the longest range for fighter to fighter shooting. No matter how many classes, hours of target shooting and time in combat, roughly about 39% could hit anything in air to air combat because they had a natural ability to start with. Or as the AAF found from gun cam review, they shot sub 400yds.
Did you even download my latest gunsight pack to peek at the gunnery manuals Fugi? Tinkles didn't do anyone a favor by turning off the range icon for the Drones.
This is great.....in the real world. We PLAY in a computer world where things are done a bit differently. I'd be willing to bet that 70% of the players playing have no clue what all this stuff means or how to use it. I have worked with you, and read everything posted about it and I STILL have trouble wrapping my head around "mils" and "radii" and how they relate to each other.
In the game most people learn lead by repetition. I the real world it took weeks to get a few hours of gunnery practice in. In the game it takes a few hours to get a few hours of practice in. Practicing at 200 mph targets isn't going to help as much as practicing against 400 mph targets. And seeing as the 400 mph targets are just as available why wouldn't you practice against the "real thing"?
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This is great.....in the real world. We PLAY in a computer world where things are done a bit differently. I'd be willing to bet that 70% of the players playing have no clue what all this stuff means or how to use it. I have worked with you, and read everything posted about it and I STILL have trouble wrapping my head around "mils" and "radii" and how they relate to each other.
In the game most people learn lead by repetition. I the real world it took weeks to get a few hours of gunnery practice in. In the game it takes a few hours to get a few hours of practice in. Practicing at 200 mph targets isn't going to help as much as practicing against 400 mph targets. And seeing as the 400 mph targets are just as available why wouldn't you practice against the "real thing"?
When I make the actual AHGF post, I probably will use recorded 'footage' of me online. However, since I am 'grounded' until I get my rig, I wanted to show this to the BBS and see if it would be used. Looking at how many times my films have been downloaded, I'd say it might be worthwhile. :aok
I do understand where you are coming from though, in both using drones and 'real targets'. As for the mil and radii, yeah, I never learned or memorized the gunsight. I memorized the trajectory of each round at the convergences I'm good at. Then, by shooting at different angles, I learned how far to lead, and to estimate my targets speed. Based on my targets speed I would determine how far to lead. Which is why I am very good in the 88 and 5" guns.
All well and good for the 50cals bustr.
In my opinion, 50cals are by far the easiest caliber round in the game to aim.
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All well and good for the 50cals bustr.
Dolby,
If your fingers aren't broken, and your computer has a calculator and an art program. Or the internet will tell you what division of 1 second 500m\sec and 720m\sec is if you and your calculator are not on speaking terms. Then update my picture or one from the K4 or 190 with slightly larger rings. I'll give you a starting place. And I believe where we and the Commonwealth used 1\6400 Mil units in WW2, the German optics was in Mrad, the Russians used 1\6000 as their Mil unit. Finland and Sweden used 1\6300. But, in Hitech's world it's 1unit@1000unit for everything. Hitech Unit of Mil (HUM).
AN\M2.50 cal and Hs404 20mm both reach 1000ft in .35sec+-. So 100Mil, 101Mil and 105Mil rings all are 100mph rings.
500m\sec = .60sec 100mph ring = 176Mil, Radius = 88Mil. MK108 30mm<--aiming outside the windscreen bars for snapshots.
610m\sec = .49sec 100mph ring = 144Mil, Radius = 72Mil. M4 37mm
720m\sec = .42sec 100mph ring = 124Mil, Radius = 62Mil. MG151/20 20mm<--why so many missed snapshots in FW and 109.
850m\sec = .35sec 100mph ring = 102Mil, Radius = 52Mil. AN\M2 50. M8 API<--Why spits rule for snap shots and
880m\sec = .34sec 100mph ring = 99.96Mil, Radi = 49.98Mil. Hs404 20mm<-----new player gunnery.
The 100mph main ring in WW2 was the standard across all of the combatants. It also describes the reality of WW2 air combat in real world physics. Opposed to how we play air Quake shooting from convoluted positions never dreamed of in WW2. If Germany had designed the MK108 for shooting at spitfires and other small fast maneuvering fighters with it's slow 500m\sec initial velocity. They would have moved the Revi gunsight to the center of the windscreen and projected a 175Mil ring and cross onto the wind screen. In the screen capture of the F4u, the largest blue ring is only 150Mil.
MG
Type97.7.7mm..750m/s...Bullet=13.2g
Brit.303......762m/s...Bullet=11.3g
MG17 7.92.....865m/s...Bullet=11.5g
MG131.13mm....750m/s...Bullet=76g
AN/M2.50......850m/s...Bullet=112g
UB-12.7.......850m/s...Bullet=64g
Type3 13.2....789m/s...Bullet=52g
20mm
Type 99-1..600m/s...Bullet=200g
MG151/20...720m/s...Bullet=205g
Ho-1 20mm..750m/s...Bullet=164g
Ho-5 20mm..750m/s...Bullet=84g
ShVAK 20mm.770m/s...Bullet=96g
Type 99-2..750m/s...Bullet=222g
Hs404 20mm.880m/s...Bullet=257g
30-37mm
Mk108 30mm.500m/s...Bullet=336g M-Gesch
M4-37mm....610m/s...Bullet=608g HE
Mk103 30mm.860m/s...Bullet=336g M-Gesch
NS-37 37mm.880m/s...Bullet=760g AP
NS-37 37mm.900m/s...Bullet=735g HE
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I comment that all is good and I get that verbal :rolleyes: your such a windbag sometimes... Keep up the good work... I guess
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I see Skuzzy's new Ban Hammer is doing it's job.
It's faster to create the tables than the pretty pictures. You have enough pretty pictures for anyone actually interested in the subject and motivated by that, to carry on with their own pretty pictures. Anything else might become Hammer fodder instead of simple information.
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Skuzzy and his ban hammer :lol
Tinkles if you'd like me to help with any filming just give me a shout. :salute
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But, in Hitech's world it's 1unit@1000unit for everything
I've been trying to relearn my gunnery since the strokes, what is the unit you are
referring to in the above quote?
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Army real world 1 degree = 17.8Mil or 6400Mils in 360 degrees
Optical real world 1 degree = 17.4 Mil or 6283 Mils in 360 degrees
Russian is 6000Mils in 360 degrees.
Sweden is 6300Mils in 360 degrees.
1Mil at 1000ft = 1ft
1Mil at 1000yd = 1yd
1Mil at 1000m = 1m
If I remember it correctly.
In WW2 Mil was the common measurement language to describe deflection as a function of lead as viewed at range through a collimating optical gunsight with a 100Mil calibrated reticle. All of our different cannon shoot their round to 1000ft over a different sub 1second time span. During that time your target at any given speed will travel a predictable distance which can be measured in Mils at range. So having a rule of thumb lead holdoff reference point for the expected general speeds you will run into during combat becomes a necessary tool. Other wise you can spend years in this game shooting by trial and error maybe remembering what worked over time.
One of the earliest rule of thumb I remember hearing in this game over a decade ago, lead with the windscreen bars. An interesting real world lead principle that works in this game. A con traveling at 45-90 degrees to your line of travel at a speed, from 100ft to 1000ft at that same speed, your hold off lead will effectively remain the same from the perspective of your gunsight.
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I remembered I have Shaw's Fighter Combat.
If I understand it correctly, the rings are an attempt to negate the
effects of the distance of a pilots eyes to the gun sight.
Is this correct?
Ram
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If you mean the reticle ring, it was a quick ruler to determine range by the relationship of the con to the diameter or radius of the ring. And it was a quick gauge to determine hold over lead allowance based on your ability to judge your con's speed. And it was a bullet drop gauge for shots longer than 2000ft. And a bomb aimpoint and rocket aimpoint aid.
Here is a link to my Historic Gunsight Package. It has every major gunsight used by most of the countries in WW2. It also has a folder with WW2 gunnery manuals. The gunsights are calibrated to the Aces High 1Mil = 2 pixels. You can actualy use them to do everything up to a point from the gunnery manuals. Hitech's physics is very well programed.
Read the readme's so you will know which gunsights went with which plane. And that each gunsight.bmp has a control file named gunsight.mil which has to be copied with the gunsight.bmp to the sights folder. Or you will get one wee tiny gunsight showing up when you spawn on the runway.
http://www55.zippyshare.com/v/63472571/file.html
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Thanx bustr...it will help
me a lot <S>
Ram
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I remembered I have Shaw's Fighter Combat.
If I understand it correctly, the rings are an attempt to negate the
effects of the distance of a pilots eyes to the gun sight.
Is this correct?
Ram
Yes. That's why the reticule stays the same size as you move your head forward and back. Otherwise your "gauge" would be changing size.