Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on May 12, 2014, 01:53:22 PM
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I've had a few people ask me to write a book on dogfighting ( :lol you silly people think I can write a book!) or something along those lines, and the tips I've posted before in this forum seem to be pretty popular so I thought I'd combine the two. In this thread I'm just going to post all my thoughts, tips, and things that worked for me over the years of flying in this game. I don't want this to be just me rambling my head off though as I may be wrong in some points. If you have some tips or thoughts that might benefit the community of Aces High 2 and help others improve their game or found that I am wrong on something then feel free to post it here! If you have any questions regarding dogfighting or ACM in general then feel free to ask. There are no stupid questions in this thread, only helpful information! I hope to be learning just as much from this thread as a free 2 week player will be! :aok
So to start things off, I will very much be jumping all over the place from one topic to another as this thread goes on but here goes.
To start learning how to fight you'll need to obviously pick a plane. A lot of people say to fly the Spitfire when you're first learning and that is a good starter plane to choose! It's pretty decent at everything and is a very forgiving aircraft. The first plane you should fly should be something you feel comfortable in though, something that suites your flying style. Do you like the TnB knife fights? Try out the A6M's, or Ki's, or Spitfire's. Do you like the BnZ energy fighting? Try out the P-51's, the 190's, the P-47's. Try out all the planes until you find one you really like. Now fly that plane non-stop! Take it to bases your country is attacking. Take it to defend a base. Use it to escort bomber missions. There's bound to be lots of planes coming to intercept those bombers. The key though is to fight! FIGHT FIGHT and FIGHT! Throw the option of running to preserve your life out the window and fight everything to the death! 1 on 1 against a spitfire? Fight it until someone dies. 3 on 1 against 3 P-51? Fight them to the death! No matter the odds, no matter the situtation, throw yourself into the fight and fight until you run out of airplane parts or everything else is dead. Yes, you will die... A LOT! But so does everyone else when they first start. No one has ever walked into a dogfight with no knowledge of aerial combat and became an Ace instantly. Heck! I spent 2 whole tours in the 109F4 trying to learn it, and I must have racked up over 2,000 deaths! In 2 months!! (No that is not a lie, that actually happened :) ) But now I know that plane inside and out. I know how well it turns, how fast it is, how well it can climb, how slow it can get, and how far I can push its performance envelope. That's what you must aim for as well! Learn your plane inside and out until you know more about it than anyone else. Now that you know all of it's strengths and weaknesses (and probably the strengths and weaknesses of most other aircraft from fighting them all the time) it's time to put that knowledge to use and start living more and killing more!
First, I'm going to share some thoughts on dogfighting. Many will say that "speed is life" and this is absolutely true. Without speed you can not maneuver and you will die. However, the other part to this saying that I like to stick onto it is "altitude dictates the fight". If you have the altitude advantage then even if your opponent is in a superior climbing plane, then you still dictate the fight. You get to choose when to start the fight and where to start it. Your opponent, even in a superior climbing aircraft, has to use his speed climbing up to you. This will make him slow, and as we know, speed is life. A slow plane has fewer options to choose from than a fast plane.
Now remember that even though you have the altitude advantage, you are not immune to everything. There are a few problems you have to consider. The most immediate is being TOO high. Yes, there is such a thing as having too much altutude. When you dive on your opponent you obviously build up speed. Speed is an advantage you can use but a good pilot can use that advantage against you. If you have too much altitude, lets say you're at 15K in a P-51D and you dive on a Spitfire Mk 16 at 5K. You are going to build up a LOT of speed in that dive, easily over 550 MPH. Now, a P-51D may handle pretty well at high speeds, but they don't exactly have the tightest turning circle at high speeds. The Spitfire 16 will be cruising around at a decent speed of 250-350 MPH most likely. A Spitfire 16 at those speeds easily has a tighter turning circle than a P-51D at 500+ MPH, so he can easily turn inside your attack and avoid you. My general rule of thumb is most everything that is over 10K above me is almost no threat to me as they will build up too much speed in their dive and I can very easily avoid them. Anything that is just 5K above me or lower is a much bigger threat because they have the altitude to convert into speed, but not so much that I can easly use their speed against them.
The other problem with holding the altitude advantage is when you come up against someone who is in a superior climbing aircraft, or multiple targets. With the altitude advantage in these situations you get to decided when and where to start the fight but you are on a time limit. Eventually the superior climbing aircraft is going to climb to your altitude and neutralize that advantage you have, or even gain it himself. In a multi-con engagement they can climb out in seperate directions, and even if they're in planes that have a worse climb rate than yours then eventually one or more of them is going to get to your altitude while you're engaging the other(s). You have to make your move sooner rather than later in these situations in order to keep your opponent(s) from getting to your altitude.
Dogfights are NEVER set in stone. They are ever changing with every single milisecond! From 1 milisecond to the next the speeds, positioning, and altitude of BOTH planes in the fight can change drastically. This, I think, is something a lot of people don't yet understand, and something they must learn first and foremost. When you make a simple left flat turn there is a lot more things happening than just the turn. You're using up speed to make the turn making you slower, you're changing the angle drastically with each passing milisecond (Angles explanation can be found here http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360317.0.html ), and you are leading into your next maneuver whatever that may be depending on the current situation. If you go into a fight thinking that you will do this and then that to win the fight, then you're only going to win maybe 1/5th of your fights because those moves only work in a certain situation. The other situations you will find yourself in those moves will probably not work and you will find yourself in a very bad situation or shot down. Go into a fight knowing the strengths and weaknesses of both aircraft. Realize what you must do in order to win the fight that is currently presented to you, but always keep a plane B and C in mind. Do not stick to just one plan of attack. If that plan fails then abandon it and adapt to the situation.
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BnZ (Boom and Zooming) fighting: This form of fighting, in my opinion, is much easier to fight than TnB'ing. This form of fighting involves using your superior energy against your enemy and keeping an altitude advantage. Planes like the P-47, P-51, and 190's are great at this form of dogfighting because of the speed they build up in the dive and their zoom climbing ablity. Planes like the 109's and P-38 are also pretty good at this form of fighting because of their great climb rate but these two planes in particular suffer from some bad compressability problems at the speeds you will build up in the dive, so you'll have to keep this in mind when flying these planes. Now, how do we fight in the BnZ fight? It's quite simple really. First and foremost you must have the altitude advantage as this leads to the "booming" part of BnZ. With that altitude advantage you need to position yourself in the most advantageous postion you can get. This means getting into a spot where you can drop down onto your opponents 6 oclock position or close to that. Do not just dive immediately at the first target you see below you. Have some patience and set up for the best shot you can get. An attack from the rear has the best chance of success and I'll explain why a little later on. Now that you have remembered not to have TOO much altitude and have attacked your opponent from his rear, one of two things most likely happened. Either you have successfully scored some hits on him and killed him, or he surived the attack or avoided it all together. Now comes the Zooming part of BnZ fighting. You have built up excessive amounts of speed in your dive. Far more than your opponent has since he's just been maneuvering to avoid you and burning speed. Now use that excessive speed advantage and convert it into altitude. There is no way you opponent will be able to climb with you if you played the BnZ correctly. Whatever you do do NOT, I seriously mean this do NOT NOT NOT NOT, try to dive away from your opponent. All this does is give up that altitude advantage you had, exposes you 6 oclock to your opponent, and puts you in a VERY bad situation. You had the altitude advantage, you converted that into a speed advantage. Now USE that speed advantage and out climb your opponent to gain the altitude advantage again!
TnB (Turn and Burning) fighting: This is the other form of dogfighting and the more difficult of the two to master in my opinion. This form of fight has to take into consideration not only the energy states and positioning of both planes like in BnZ fighting, but also more depth things like the angles, and strengths and weaknesses of both planes (which you also have to consider in BnZ fighting but even more in depth in TnB fighting). As best as I have ever heard TnB fights described, it's a knife fight in a phone booth. One mistake and you are not exactly screwed but you are in a very VERY bad situation and must react immediately and correctly in order to survive. Honestly I don't even know where to start with this and TnB fighting is my preferred form of fighting! There are so many different variables that you must consider that are constantly changing with each passing milisecond, so I'm probably going to be all over the place here. First off, angles as I linked above (here> http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360317.0.html ). This is probably one of the most important things about TnB fighting is learning to work the angles to your advantage. Believe it or not a P-47 can win a TnB fight against a Spitfire if the P-47 pilot uses the angles better than the Spitfire pilot. I'll skip over this for now since I think I explained it pretty well in the link above but if you still have questions about angles then feel free to ask! The other big thing you must consider in a TnB fight is the E state and strengths and weaknesses of both aircrafts. This can be very overwhelming as there are a ton of different possible fights you can get into: P-47 vs P-38, Spitfire 9 vs Yak9U, A6M3 vs Ki84.... the possible fights are as many planes are in the game! Learning what both planes are capable of can only come from fighting in or against that plane and just learning it yourself. Someone can tell you a 109K4 is an excellent climbing plane with great speed but until you fight in it or against it for yourself you will never know for sure just how good it is.
The strengths and weaknesses of both planes, in all forms of combat, is very much the key to winning in a fight. If you are in a 109K4 and you get into a TnB kind of fight against a P-47D-40 then you have the advantage of having a better climbing rate while the P-47D-40 has a better diving ability. Use that climbing advantage and take the fight into the vertical where you can out climb the Jug and eventually gain the altitude advantage or kill him while he stalls out (Remember, altitude dictates the fight!). Or if you are the P-47D-40, realize that the K4 has a better climb rate than you and don't even try to climb with him if you feel you won't make the climb. Level off, keep you speed (speed is LIFE!), wait for him to make the first move and then reverse him and gain the advantage.
I'm sorry for the wall of text to start off with. Pictures and stuff will follow as questions are asked or I think of more things to add here. :cheers: :salute
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Apparently you can write a book. Whenya gonna dump the Mups and join the JRs? :D
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Apparently you can write a book. Whenya gonna dump the Mups and join the JRs? :D
Not very likely. I like the Muppets but I'll fly some missions with you guys. :salute
Some stuff on lift vectors to follow soon! :cheers:
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Very timely for us Newbies. Thanks a bunch!!!
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I'd like to see you write your take on aggression and situational awareness, and how to best combine both of those while applying the other "book learning" ACM stuff like managing energy and vectors and such.
edit - 1500th post, hurray! Couldn't be in a nicer guy's thread. I won't write my own opinions, Latrobe asked for questions so he can write his, and I think my question is a great one for any a2a focused pilot in this game.
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Not very likely. I like the Muppets but I'll fly some missions with you guys. :salute
Some stuff on lift vectors to follow soon! :cheers:
I'll settle for that (as I'm sure the rest of the guys would). :cheers:
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Good stuff Latrobe, maybe after another year or two of getting it pounded into my head (by 50 cal, 20 mm etc.) I will finally get it.
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BnZ (Boom and Zooming) fighting: This form of fighting, in my opinion, is much easier to fight than TnB'ing.
In general, I find fights against Spit16s FAR simpler (and less demanding of excellent gunnery) when flying an Fm2 than when flying a Mustang, especially when one does not have an advantage over the Spit. But this is a mere quibble. You're awesome Lat, questions forthcoming as soon as I can formulate them clearly.
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I'd like to see you write your take on aggression and situational awareness, and how to best combine both of those while applying the other "book learning" ACM stuff like managing energy and vectors and such.
edit - 1500th post, hurray! Couldn't be in a nicer guy's thread. I won't write my own opinions, Latrobe asked for questions so he can write his, and I think my question is a great one for any a2a focused pilot in this game.
This video is the best write up I can possibly do on that kind of thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vngMd2XCU
For me, personally, I am ALWAYS aggressive. Definitely not a good thing as there are moments where you need to be more passive and wait things out a bit which is probably why I get myself killed a lot, but I just can't help myself. I love throwing myself into a fight with no regard to my own personal safety. :D
When it's one on one, my idea is to always be aggressive. Fight the fight that is most advantageous to you as aggressively as possible and try to kill them as quick, but smoothly, as possible. It's important that all of your moves flow into one another very fluidly so to conserve as much energy as possible. As an example, if I'm in a 109 and I'm fighting a P-51 who has the altitude advantage on me then I'll be passive and wait for him to make a move. Then once he makes a move I become aggressive on him and most likely perform a break turn into a Barrel Roll Defense and stay aggressive on the overshoot until he gets out of effective gun range. The key is that I time the break turn to BRD as perfectly as possible so it's very smooth as if it's one whole maneuver. Then once I no longer have effective shots on him I become passive again and try to work away at his altitude advantage while waiting for him to make another attack. Then I'll go aggressive again. I'm pretty sure I have some good films of me doing this so I'll take a look in my film folder later for them.
In the case on the video I linked above, it was all about picking out the biggest threat amongst the crowd. I was out numbered so my best bet was to try and gain and keep the altitude advantage to allow myself to choose when and where to attack. Planes that can not climb up to me are not a threat as they are bleeding speed to gain altitude. Planes that have altitude are the biggest threat, and the ones with a better climb rate than me are the most immediate threats. An even bigger threat than that though is the P-51 who shows up mid-fight higher than me with speed. In the specific situation I found myself in at the time, the P-51 had more speed than me and a better climb rate. He immediately becomes my main concern and I focus mostly on him. My secondary concerns are the planes that are co-alt with me or the ones who can get co-alt with me since they can get shots on me if I'm not careful. Anyone below me or who can't climb up to me at the moment are not of any threat to me as I said before they will have to use up their speed to climb to me which makes them slow and an easy target which that spitfire found out firsthand in the video. Even when you are alone against 5-8 planes you can still fight 2-3 on 1's if you use your advantages against the others weaknesses and keep them in a position where they're out of the fight.
Threat assessment is a very important thing to learn in a furball and something I might go into more depth later. I would just like to ask everyone who watches the video I posted to take note of my SA. Note how when I'm attacking one plane I am keeping an eye or a note on where everyone else is at the time and what they are doing until I get within firing range of my target. Especially take note of when I dive on the spitfire and kill him how I climb back up and continue to look around to re-evaluate where everyone is and what they are doing. SA is a very life saving skill to have and quite easy to master IMO. You just have to look around once in a while, make a mental note of everyone and what they're doing in the immediate moment, and then re-check all the threats again in about 2-5 seconds.
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Fantastic stuff Latrobe, I hope it helps a lot of people who've asked for it.
Note how when I'm attacking one plane I am keeping an eye or a note on where everyone else is at the time and what they are doing until I get within firing range of my target
IMO this is hammering the nail right on the head, the critical piece in a post of great advice. I was taught this when I first started by Fester/Citabria - always, always keep your thumb/hat, fingers/keys, or trackir/head, MOVING. Even during an attack. Especially then during a multi threat fight, as many guys will go for you when they see you commit to a target that isn't them. Constant scans, especially behind you in the rear quarters, give you the chance to decide if you need to cease your attack on one target in order to defend yourself from a threat that will get a gun solution on you before you can fire on yours.
Great stuff, I'm enjoying reading this well written and considered info based on your experience and flying style Latrobe, keep it going.
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Explaining Angles, Lift Vectors, and Horzontal and Vertical Problems a little bit now. :)
If you haven't seen the threads already, check out these threads.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,359053.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,355446.0.html
Let's take in the situation first. I have a P-38L trying to sneak up behind and below me from my 6 oclock with
a little more speed than me while I fly my 109F4. Too bad for him I had spotted him long before hand and am setting up for my first move already! :devil
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL1_zpsb40bb303.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL1_zpsb40bb303.png.html)
At about 1.5K I start to make my turn into him. I know one of the advantages I hold are a better turn rate so I can easily get inside his turn and deny him a shot, but the P-38L has a much better climb rate than me. Whether the 38 pilot knows this or not I will not know until the first turn. Anyways. My goal is to get my horizontal flightpath perpendicular to his. I want to point my wing at the P-38. The link above will show you that a perpendicular flightpath creates sharp angle, creates higher closure rates, and makes shots more difficult for your opponent. That's exactly what I do against this P-38 in this situation.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL122_zps7a3e1ec0.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL122_zps7a3e1ec0.png.html)
I do not want to make a tight turn as that will bring me around my turn and into a head on pass with the P-38. That's not something I want to do right now, so I instead loosen my turn once I get my flightpath perpendicular or more to his flightpath. In this following image we can see if I continued my tight turn then I would have a head on pass with the P-38 which, as I said, is something I wanted to avoid in this situation. You can see how I loosen my turn to keep my wing pointed at the P-38 as to keep his flightpath perpendicular to mine.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL121_zps00427850.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL121_zps00427850.png.html)
Now just 1 second later. The P-38 continues his turn into me to try and get a shot, so I continue my loose turn into him to deny the shot. We see that his current flightpath takes him no where near where he needs to be for a shot on me....
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL131_zpsbfc59ee0.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL131_zpsbfc59ee0.png.html)
But that is just one frame from the fight. He can easily turn into me and gain my 6 oclock....
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL132_zps8e2c94c6.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL132_zps8e2c94c6.png.html)
HOWEVER, just as he can turn, so can I! I can continue to turn into him and my tighter turning circle will continue to deny him a shot until he overshoots.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL133_zps10d51d93.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL133_zps10d51d93.png.html)
And that's exactly what happens as the P-38 can not make the shot, I keep inside his turn, and he will now overshoot me.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL141_zps5004a623.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL141_zps5004a623.png.html)
Throughout the previous images though I have just been showing you an overhead view of the fight and how to create the horizontal problem for your opponent. Planes can climb and dive as well as turn and that's where the vertical problem comes from for your opponent. In this next image if I were to continue a flat turn into the P-38 then he would maybe get a shot on me if he saw me turning to foil his attack and corrected his flightpath beforehand. It's likely he would have missed in this situation as he did not correct for me turning into him, but even so this next move sets me up perfectly for what I have in plan for him.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL152_zpsc3821c57.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL152_zpsc3821c57.png.html)
What I do is pull up as the P-38 gets into gun range. What this does is create a vertical problem for him as well as a horizontal problem, and it's at such a close range with such a high closure rate thanks to my turning into him and getting my flightpath perpendicular to his that he is physically incapable of ever getting his guns on me in time for a shot. What this also does is set me up for my first turn...
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL154_zpsc658295a.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL154_zpsc658295a.png.html)
I know that my 109F has a better turn rate than a P-38L, but I am slightly out of position. So, what I do is position my lift vector behind the P-38L. This will give me a positional advantage of being behind his 3-9 line thanks to my better turn rate and positioning of my lift vector.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL191_zps7e149b3a.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL191_zps7e149b3a.png.html)
Note how in the image above the P-38 is clearly behind my 3-9 line but now he is not in this next image? Now I position my lift vector in front of him in an attempt to cut the corner and close the distance on him for a shot. Doing this is risky as you put yourself at risk of overshooting but when you're in a plane that has a better turn rate you can get away with stuff like this. (I say attempt to cut the corner, but I already know my 109F can out turn a P-38L so it's just a matter of time really.) (also, typo in the image! I'm to lazy to fix one typo! :D :o )
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL201_zps295ad818.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL201_zps295ad818.png.html)
This is the plan I have in mind that I know for sure will work here. As the P-38 comes around his turn I plan to use my superior turn rate to come over the top and drop down behind him and line up a crossing shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL211_zps97f61daa.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL211_zps97f61daa.png.html)
We can see that my plan goes perfectly as I drop down behind the P-38 and just a second or two later I get the crossing shot I want and kill the P-38.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LOL222_zps93ecf376.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LOL222_zps93ecf376.png.html)
I shouldn't really say "plan" though as I don't really plan these things out. I'm the kind of pilot who just reacts based upon what the current situation calls for. When I saw the P-38 coming for a shot in my blind spot I just instantly knew what to do thanks to years or practice. You too can achieve this kind of "muscle memory" if you stick to it long enough and keep fighting and keep practicing!
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Great stuff Latrobe.
Thanks a lot for time and effort! :aok
:salute :cheers:
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Okay. There is a certain scissoring technique...You are pursuing in lag, trying to win the nose-to-tail chase. They deceleration combined with an element of vertical that put's God's G to work turning back into you to get the nose on. Seems very difficult to counter within the bounds of human reaction time. Any ideas?
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I'd like to see you write your take on aggression and situational awareness, and how to best combine both of those while applying the other "book learning" ACM stuff like managing energy and vectors and such.
edit - 1500th post, hurray! Couldn't be in a nicer guy's thread. I won't write my own opinions, Latrobe asked for questions so he can write his, and I think my question is a great one for any a2a focused pilot in this game.
One quote that I heard on Dogfights and I'm sure has been taught since the beginning of air combat that is always ringing through my head is that "whenever you're about to shoot someone, check your six" because the easiest time to shoot another plane down is when he's trying to shoot someone else down.
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In the real world of fighter combat tactics, there are multiples of two. So, If you see one there is another close by. Most certainly, if you are engaged with a fighter, the second one is maneuvering out of plane, supporting and clearing the engaged fighter. If the second fighter is maneuvering properly, it will drop in on you if the engaged fighter loses the advantage. :salute
(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/Luftberry.jpg)
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hi latrobe, ive been playing off and on for close to 2 years. so ive never thought about the 3-9 line. staying behind that line gives you positional advantage? i generally am fighting for alt and angles, but after seeing this i wonder if i should be fighting for that 3-9 line. i think im doing that in the fights that i do well in, but its not a conscience thing that i was aware of.
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Superb write up.
I simply can't do any of this but nevertheless it's a good post :salute
I'm at 20k, they're at 1.5, I'm on the deck, they're at 20k :bhead
I take a Zeke, I meet a high pony
I take a pony, I meet a squadron of high alt Brews.
I fly a 109, I compress and crash, every time, without fail
I bleed energy like an aortic wound
I chase a set of buffs, PW and engine hit from 1500m out, no matter where I attack from, and this coupled with me not being able to hit a barn door
10 years on, no better than week 2 :bhead :lol
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danny maybe a session with a sports psychologist will do you the world of good. :lol
They might be in sparse supply with WC next month though...
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hi latrobe, ive been playing off and on for close to 2 years. so ive never thought about the 3-9 line. staying behind that line gives you positional advantage? i generally am fighting for alt and angles, but after seeing this i wonder if i should be fighting for that 3-9 line. i think im doing that in the fights that i do well in, but its not a conscience thing that i was aware of.
If you are ahead of your opponents 3/9 line, you are at a disadvantage from the git go. Knowing how and where to position your lift vector is also key to success. :salute
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Superb write up.
I simply can't do any of this but nevertheless it's a good post :salute
I'm at 20k, they're at 1.5, I'm on the deck, they're at 20k :bhead
I take a Zeke, I meet a high pony
I take a pony, I meet a squadron of high alt Brews.
I fly a 109, I compress and crash, every time, without fail
I bleed energy like an aortic wound
I chase a set of buffs, PW and engine hit from 1500m out, no matter where I attack from, and this coupled with me not being able to hit a barn door
10 years on, no better than week 2 :bhead :lol
Have you been introduced to the fundamentals of BFM and energy management (the energy egg concept)?
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One more thing that can help a lot is to join a known good pilot. Being in his plane while he's fighting will make some sense of how they fly to set up the shot and the other gazzillion questions that will come to mind when you are actually in there with bullets flying everywhere :) Many of those good sticks won't mind you tagging along. I've done it with Delirium, Shuffler, Grizz and many others. None of them said no and I learned a lot from em.
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You misunderstand, I can hold my own, I have spent time with some of the most skilled guys in game. Nrshida, Batfink, Soullyss.
I understand the concepts of Bfm/acm and if reading about it meant anything I'd be top every tour.
I was simply showing admiration for Latrobe's skills, I wasn't whining.
Btw I was the Pony in his video and he said I knew what I was doing :banana:
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Very good write ups and pictures, I think I finally got Lead and Lag prusuit down and the 3x9 line. I always seem to be in Lead prusuit and end up out of energy, I'm going to consciously try to change my approachg to using Lag prusuit more and paying attention to where my lift vector is pointed. It seems to me like it will be a more relaxed efficient way of dogfighting, (flying the plane into position to shoot and not forcing the plane into position.
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Nimrod we covered this in training. :bhead
I should have given you homework. :lol
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Nimrod we covered this in training. :bhead
I should have given you homework. :lol
Ya, sorry buddy I'm a sssslllllloooooowwww learner LOL. Heck I've looked at Latrobes threads before on lift vectors and the 3x9 line before and they never sunk in. But this time maybe with what you showed me in the TA and just having some more experience the old light came on. Now lets see if I carry it inot a fight or if the old adrenaline pushed it out of the cocpit as soon as I see a con. :salute
Thanks for your help by the way, maybe if your up to it we could go back in the TA some time, I seriously need to work on my aiming.
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Sounds good. I'm busy evenings now so it would have to be early noonish or late night.
If you review the film you made training you may get more out of it by watching it again with trails on. As you mentioned, you have to repeat the basics until they sink in and become second nature. :aok
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You guys have been waiting far too long for this information, so I've created a second account until I can post under "Latrobe" again :D
Okay. There is a certain scissoring technique...You are pursuing in lag, trying to win the nose-to-tail chase. They deceleration combined with an element of vertical that put's God's G to work turning back into you to get the nose on. Seems very difficult to counter within the bounds of human reaction time. Any ideas?
Here's a situation that I think shows what you're talking about. In this fight we're both in Yak9u's and we're in a rolling scissors fight. Then at the end I cut throttle and drop flaps at the top of my loop in order to bleed off speed and drop my nose quickly in order to cut the corner and try for a shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGDONE_zpse2988fda.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGDONE_zpse2988fda.png.html)
The planning for this move started about 2-3 turns back. In the following picture I am coming down from my loop but I have made a mistake and timed it wrong. I have to turn to avoid a collision and this puts me out of position. I know the flying style of my opponent since this was a DA fight so I know what he's going to do, but I can still determine what my opponent is most likely to do even without knowing who's in the cockpit just by the way they fly. How good was their merge? How well do they conserve and use energy? How well do they execute ACM? All this will let me know roughly what skill level they are at and then I can determine what they are most likely to do in their next maneuver. In this case I know my opponent is going to go vertical again to gain an altitude advantage and then drop down onto my 6 for a shot attempt. So I'm going to roll right, with my engine torque, and pull a turn into him and pass under him. This will set me up for my next move.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGstart1_zps09542629.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGstart1_zps09542629.png.html)
We can see in this next frame that the Yak is now rolling over and starting his attack run. I am pulling my right hand turn hard into him to try and pass under him...
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGstart2_zps1ee834cb.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGstart2_zps1ee834cb.png.html)
The reason for this is because I want the Yak to dive steeply to pick up lots of speed at a steep angle. I can then use that against him and force an easy overshoot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGstart2-2DONE_zpse6c684b0.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGstart2-2DONE_zpse6c684b0.png.html)
I do not want to turn left and away from him as this will give him a more shallow approach to me and give him and easy chance to gain my 6.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGstart2-2DONE2_zpsa30f8d9b.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGstart2-2DONE2_zpsa30f8d9b.png.html)
As the Yak makes his attack I pull up and into him to deny him the shot. Now that excessive speed he built up and the steep angle he's in is going to force him to overshoot quite easily. Me pulling up to avoid his shot leads straight into my next move. I'm going to bleed some speed in my climb and I'm going to get in a position above him as he overshoots below me. I'm going to drop flaps and chop my throttle some to bleed off some more speed and let gravity do its thing and help flip my nose around quickly.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGstart3DONE_zps5a5d6c35.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGstart3DONE_zps5a5d6c35.png.html)
The Yak will be going too fast to make the turn and I will get a brief snap shot on him as we can see in this next shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/GodsGstart4_zps72d7ccc3.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/GodsGstart4_zps72d7ccc3.png.html)
Now, how does the Yak go about defeating this maneuver I pull? Well first he has to watch and see which way I roll and pull at the top of my loop. This will let him know which direction has the greatest chance of success for him. We can see the Yak in this shot has rolled wings level and is waiting for me to make the move. As he sees me roll at the top he now knows what he must do.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio_zpsea5aec8c.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio_zpsea5aec8c.png.html)
The Yak pulls a right hand turn into me keeping his lift vector behind me. He is doing the exact same thing I did against him earlier in order to force the overshoot on him. He wants to make as sharp and steep of an angle for me as possible to create the hardest shot possible and then use my speed against me. Just like in my maneuver, the Yak should not turn left as this gives me his 6 and I can easily drop down on him for excellent positioning.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio2DONE_zpsfa4afb16.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio2DONE_zpsfa4afb16.png.html)
Now the Yak runs into a bit of trouble. He did not expect me to chop my throttle at the top or he just misjudged the angle. Now I'm in a good position to drop down onto his 6 for a shot. This is where never sticking to one plan in a fight comes in handy. This Yak pilot realizes his Plan A has failed so he abandons that plan and starts his Plan B. Some options that he can do is he can again pull another hard right hand turn into me to try and stay inside my turn and deny me a shot...
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio3DONE1_zpsb5debdda.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio3DONE1_zpsb5debdda.png.html)
Or, he can be a little more risky and cut back the other direction in order to get to the belly side of my plane and hope I don't have enough time to roll my plane to line up a shot on his reversed turn. In both of these options, if successful, he can then take the fight back into the rolling scissors or do whatever other maneuver he may have planned.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio3DONE2_zpsc7c3f58f.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio3DONE2_zpsc7c3f58f.png.html)
The goal here is to get out of a "death zone" that I've marked with the dotted lines. Inside these lines you are not making any horizontal separation and making the shot just that much more easier for your opponent and making avoiding the shot that much harder for you. You can choose option A and turn hard into the attack to try and get inside your attackers turn therefore denying the shot, or option B and take the outside track. It's much more difficult to pull of shots in the negative G's as your aircrafts lift and flaps (if deployed) are working against you.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio3DONE3_zps3f4206a7.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio3DONE3_zps3f4206a7.png.html)
The Yak has chosen option B and waits for the perfect moment when my wingtips are perpendicular to the ground. This means all of my lift is pointed in the oppostie direction of where he is going to fly to.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio4DONE_zpsd6941025.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio4DONE_zpsd6941025.png.html)
And we can see that he has made the perfect maneuver as I can not roll over in time and my flaps make it impossible to get a shot on him.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Vio5DONE_zpsdfc962c2.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Vio5DONE_zpsdfc962c2.png.html)
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hi latrobe, ive been playing off and on for close to 2 years. so ive never thought about the 3-9 line. staying behind that line gives you positional advantage? i generally am fighting for alt and angles, but after seeing this i wonder if i should be fighting for that 3-9 line. i think im doing that in the fights that i do well in, but its not a conscience thing that i was aware of.
Flying for the 3-9 line can give you the positional advantage in a fight. The 3 advantages that I like to think of are speed, altitude, and position. The first two are obvious and are a part of actual fighter pilot training throughout the life or aerial combat. The third, positional, might be made up by be, or have an actual name that is different from what I call it :) . This is just my personal thoughts on advantages, and what has worked for me.
First, I'll explain altitude advantage since it's pretty basic. Having more altitude than your opponent gives you the altitude advantage. With the altitude advantage you can convert that altitude into speed as you dive either to just pick up speed or attack your opponent. From the other side, not having the altitude advantage means that you will have to bleed off precious speed to climb up to your opponent in order to attack them. As I stated before, altitude dictates the fight. With it you can choose when and where to start a fight while your oppoent bleeds speed trying to get to you. There is a problem with altitude though and that's having too much of it. I'll explain why along with the speed advantage.
Now for the speed advantage. This can be pretty simple. If you have more speed than your opponent then you can out run, extend out of their gun range, and reset the fight. You can also obviously use speed to perform maneuvers either to gain a shot or avoid one from your opponent. However, there is a little bit more to this than just that. There is the possibility of having too much speed. The most obvious is from having too much alitutde (the problem with being too high and having too much altitude.) If you're 10K above your opponent then you are going to build up a LOT of speed in the dive. Too much speed in fact. Being just 5K above your opponent means you will build up less speed in your dive but not so much that you are going to overshoot easily. Another problem with too much speed is in maneuverability. All planes have different strengths and weaknesses. For an example lets take the P-47M vs an A6M3. The A6M3 obvious turns better and has a better climb rate and the P-47M is faster and dives better, but speed also plays a little part in all of this. A P-47M can fly and handle quite well up to 600+ MPH. An A6M3 on the otherhand tends to put itself at risk of breaking apart pulling high G turns at around 350MPH. This means that the P-47M can pull more G's at high speed than the A6M3 can, so if the P-47M can get the A6M3 to build up speed by maybe chasing it into a dive then the P-47M can out turn the A6M3 for a moment while the A6M3 struggles with the high speeds and tries not to rip his wings off.
Lastly, the positional advantage. You are safest when you are behind your opponent. This means he can not shoot back at you and the closure rate isn't as drastic as when you are coming at them from their front. The further from your opponents 6 you get, the most risky things get. If you are off their 7-8 oclock then the closure rate is slightly higher than if you are on their six. Also, the angles are slightly greater as well. If you're off their 9 oclock then everything increases even more, and if you're off their 10-11 oclock then again the closure rate and angles increase even more!
To try and show the positional advantage, this first picture notice how both of us are positioned similarly to the other? I am keeping my opponent in front of my 3-9 line by pointing my lift vector behind him, and he is doing the same thing. The positional advantage is neutral as neither of us is clearly behind the others 3-9 line, or on the others 6 oclock if that's easier for you to visualize.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/sidebyside1_zps0556b07f.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/sidebyside1_zps0556b07f.png.html)
Now, in this particular fight I had a slight speed advantage going into the next merge, so I used that speed advantage to climb up above this Spitfire and gain the altitude advantage. This altitude advantage will allow me to choose when and where to attack him next. We see in this image that the Spitfire has stalled and this is my moment to strike.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/sidebyside2_zpsea6c0ef1.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/sidebyside2_zpsea6c0ef1.png.html)
Now in this next picture I am very clearly behind my opponents 3-9 line, or on his 6 oclock. He is in front of my 3-9 line, or on my 12 oclock. I have now gained a huge positional advantage over him. He has to use us a lot of speed to try and force me off his 6 and get the overshoot while all I have to do is follow him, keep on his 6, and try to avoid overshooting. This is what flying for the 3-9 line and gaining a positional advantage can do for you.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/sbs3_zps27e8e45e.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/sbs3_zps27e8e45e.png.html)
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Here's some more stuff to think about. :)
Threat assessment, some decision making, and readjusting the attack
So, first contact in this image we can see a P-47, a Typhie, a lower P-47 and some friendly bombers. This is where we can immediately start assuming some things. The higher P-47 is very much most likely going to going for the bombers. After all, who can resist shooting at bombers? :) The typhie is the next highest enemy. He doesn't appear to be going after the bombers though. Is he swinging out wide for a side shot on them? Does he see me and he's climbing to engage? Does he not care or not see me or the bombers and is going somewhere else? We can't really tell. Since his intentions are unknown and he is in a position to give us some trouble if he does target us then he's fairly high on the threat level and we'll have to keep an eye on him. The second, lower P-47, is not really a threat at all. He is way too low to be a threat. He will be spending a lot of speed to climb up to me and that will make him a slow easy target to kill. So, on the threat level scale the P-47 and Typhie are the biggest threats. They have some altitude and can easily engage me. The P-47 appears to be more concerned with the bombers but they are heading my way so he can easily change target to me. The typhie we can not really tell what he is currently doing and he, just like the high P-47, can easily engage me if he so wishes to. The lower P-47 is very low on the threat scale. He doesn't have enough altitude to engage me currently. Even if he was doing 400mph he would be down to his last bit of speed by the time he climbed up to me while I will be cruising around at a good 300+mph.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA2_zpsd109b398.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA2_zpsd109b398.png.html)
Seconds later now. Starting to put my plan into effect as I position for an attack on the P-47. NOTE how I am swinging out to the right and rolling so I can keep an eye on all three of these guys without doing any drastic maneuvers. Not having to keep rolling and turn just to keep and eye on a plane will save energy for me. The typhie we can now see is flying off in a completely different direction. We can now assume that he is not interested in me or the bombers.... right now that is. He could very easily turn back later on and come back to fight us but he is 3.5K away right now while the P-47 is 1.5K and closing so the P-47 is the most immediate and biggest threat. The 2nd lower P-47 is still very low on the threat scale but he is climbing up to either me or the bombers so he is at least a little bit of a threat that we will have to eventually deal with. Also NOTE how I am not going to dive straight at the P-47. This would be a bad attack approach as he could very easily pull up into me and shoot me as well. What I'm going to do is stay high, swing around behind him, and dive onto his 6.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA3_zps2fe9aaeb.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA3_zps2fe9aaeb.png.html)
This Jug is completely focused on the bombers. He does not see me coming so I roll over and dive in to get on his tail.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA4_zpsb9fcb579.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA4_zpsb9fcb579.png.html)
And we pull up out of our dive we are behind and below the P-47 in his blind spot. If he really didn't see us coming then he most certainly does not see us now even if he were to look around. This is where I can now unload my guns into his tail and belly and kill him..... or I should have, but my aim is not great and he does get away with minor damage. :o
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA5_zps40a151d7.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA5_zps40a151d7.png.html)
The P-47 noses down and dives away after I hit him. I DO NOT FOLLOW HIM! Why is that? Well remember that there was the 2nd P-47 that was climbing up towards us. Now is the perfect moment to have a look around and update our situational awareness. We know where the first Jug is because we just shot him. He won't be an immediate threat for a little while because we were just on his 6, shot him, and he dove away. We know where he is. So, I have a look around and check my six and what do you know! That second P-47 is in fact behind us and it appears that he is not too pleased with us for shooting at his buddy. :D
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA6_zpsf25a9d44.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA6_zpsf25a9d44.png.html)
So, what do I do. I have plenty of options to choose from. I could dive, I could flat turn, I could climb, I could reverse my turn, etc etc. This is where decision making to choose the best course of action needs to be instant and the right decision, and it's not completely random like "Oh I'll dive and try that." There is a reason behind what I choose to do. In this case I can use my previous situational awareness knowledge! I know from keeping my SA up before I went into my attack run that this second P-47 was very low. Now a few seconds later he has gained some altitude but he is still a little ways below me. I know he can't be too fast since he has been climbing. Climbing uses up speed. I, on the other hand, have TONS of speed since I just dove down to make an attack run. On top of that I still hold a little altitude advantage over this guy. The best course of action I can take here is to use that speed advantage to climb and try to bleed this guy of the rest of his speed in a rope attempt. So, I climb and I turn slowly (SLOWLY!) into him to point my wingtip at him. Pointing my wingtip at him will help me get into a better position to drop down on him while conserving as much E as possible. Again, emphasis on the SLOWLY TURN into him part. I do not need to make a tight turn right now. I KNOW I have the speed to out climb him. There is no need to make a tight turn and waste the speed.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA7_zps4c0e2535.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA7_zps4c0e2535.png.html)
Now just a few seconds later and some important stuff is going on here. We also had that typhie to worry about at the start of all this. As we're turning and climbing to deal with the P-47 climbing to us we get a glimpse of the typhie again. It looks like he is still not worried about us and is flying off to engage someone else. This let's us know that this is going to be a 2v1 fight at tops (2 Jugs vs Me) instead of a 3v1 (2 Jugs and a Typhie vs Me). He also appears to have lost some altitude from the last time we saw him. The typhie went from being a somewhat high threat at the start of this engagement to almost no threat at all. He's still in the area and still fighting so he is at least a little bit of a threat if he ever does come back this way and decides to engage us, but at the moment he's not too much of a concern for me. We also see that the first P-47 that I attacked has leveled off. What is he going to do now? Will he start to climb back up to engage me? Will he fly away to engage someone else? Will he go land? We don't know yet and he is still capable of climbing up to engage me so he is still fairly high on the threat level. This second Jug however is still targeting me, still climbing to me, and is still a fairly high and immediate threat.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA8_zpsf572c06f.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA8_zpsf572c06f.png.html)
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(continued! :D )
Just a second or two later and we can see the P-47 I attacked goes into a turn and is also possibly diving. This either means he's going to land his damaged plane or he is a lesser skilled pilot who isn't quite sure what to do. Knowing this and the fact that he is now going to bleed more speed and altitude (or possibly landing) means he is not as big of a threat anymore. Instead, the second P-47 has become the major threat. He was the least threatening thing in the skies to me at first, but after one attack run he has become the most threatening! What we see in this image though is his flightpath straighten out. I see him roll his wings level and away from me. This lets me know that my plan has succeeded. He did not have the speed to climb to me, realized it, and broke off his attack. Now is my time to strike before he builds up any more speed!
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA9_zpsc9b3bf2f.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA9_zpsc9b3bf2f.png.html)
I roll over the top and start my diving attack onto his 6. Looking at the image in the corner we can see how my turn was rather loose at first as I turned slowly into him in order to conserve speed, and then as soon as I saw him break off his attack I tighten my turn as I go on the offensive. NOTE how its a gradual increase and not a sudden tightening of my turn. This also conserves speed and energy. An immediate drastic or jerking of the stick will bleed more speed than a gradual increase.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA10DONE_zps9da61424.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA10DONE_zps9da61424.png.html)
Now, this Jug pilot was not stupid. He knew exactly what to do and pulled a textbook defensive move on me. He pulls into me at 800 yards, pointing his wingtip at me to create some angles to work with, increase closure rate, gets me off his immediate six, and dives below me. What diving below me did was use my advantage in speed against me! I am already going pretty fast. Turning into me creates a sharp angle. Diving will force me to dive as well to get a shot, but I am going way too fast and will never make that shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA11DONE_zps46245b2c.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA11DONE_zps46245b2c.png.html)
What would definitely have happened if I tried to make this shot is I would simply have been going too fast and wouldn't be able to pull lead at all. I wouldn't even get the gunsite ON his plane let alone IN FRONT of it! The P-47 could then execute a barrel roll defense or some other type of reversal move as my greater speed carries me out in front of him, and now he has a short window of opportunity to fill by butt with bullets before my excessive speed carries me out of his gun range.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA13a_zpse9fafc98.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA13a_zpse9fafc98.png.html)
So what do I do? Well I break off this attack and I re-position to attack from a better position! Looking from his cockpit we see I use my greater speed advantage to climb to regain an altitude advantage. Climbing will bleed that excessive speed I had and store it in the altitude I gain so I can regain that speed later by diving.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA12_zps27f3e4dc.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA12_zps27f3e4dc.png.html)
What this climb is going to do for me is get me into a position where I can attack the P-47 from his 6 no matter which way he goes. If he tries to reverse his turn back to the left, I can drop down onto him...
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA13option1_zps8b38be53.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA13option1_zps8b38be53.png.html)
If he tries to continue his turn then I can roll over the top and drop down onto him yet again...
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA13option2_zps14defc1f.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA13option2_zps14defc1f.png.html)
And if he tries to straighten out to either climb or dive then I can attack him yet again from his tail.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/SA13option3_zps7d1f6daa.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/SA13option3_zps7d1f6daa.png.html)
Here is the film file of that very engagement if you want to watch it in real time from other pilots perspectives. (And some extra stuff afterwards! :) )
http://www.mediafire.com/download/11wtmd47cbd3mmz/P47D11+2_0958.ahf
And here's the YouTube video from my perspective with TrackIR. What I saw and how I saw it. (3:00 mark) :cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHznnJ04JcY