Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SysError on May 24, 2014, 04:21:11 AM
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Interesting. Thoughts?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140522-are-these-the-worlds-worst-plane
click through and one of the links takes you here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnGZBhrrlMk
The Caproni Ca.60 Noviplano flying boat. Or as someone put it "'The flying Balcony"
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The Messerschmitt Me-163 Komet was the only rocket fighter to enter service; pilots only had three minutes' worth of fuel
:huh
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Whomever wrote that obviously never tried out the AH version of the old Buffalo cause it is Uber and deadly. LOL!
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:huh
Our 163 pilots shut off their engines for cruise. I've seen guys coax them all the way to the middle of the map through a combination of this and not dropping their gear/carriage.
Whomever wrote that obviously never tried out the AH version of the old Buffalo cause it is Uber and deadly. LOL!
They're probably referring specifically to the F2A-3, which was horrendously overweight and underpowered. We have the stripped-down B-239, which was an excellent fighter. The export version we sent to the Dutch was similar. It was the British export and the -3 used at Midway that tarnished the F2A's reputation (Boyington thought the earlier marks were wonderful little fighters).
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Our 163 pilots shut off their engines for cruise. I've seen guys coax them all the way to the middle of the map through a combination of this and not dropping their gear/carriage.
They're probably referring specifically to the F2A-3, which was horrendously overweight and underpowered. We have the stripped-down B-239, which was an excellent fighter. The export version we sent to the Dutch was similar. It was the British export and the -3 used at Midway that tarnished the F2A's reputation (Boyington thought the earlier marks were wonderful little fighters).
Agreed. But then there was probably very little flying in 1941 that could outclass a seasoned Japanese Navy pilot in his Rei-sen. That first crop kido butai Zeke drivers could make pretty much anybody and their machine look bad.
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But then there was probably very little flying in 1941 that could outclass a seasoned Japanese Navy pilot in his Rei-sen.
In the Pacific yes.
Put Douglas Bader or some other multiple-ace 1941 RAF veteran in a Spit V against the best IJN pilot.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=17&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=17&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Put Jochen Marseilles or some other multiple-ace 1941 Luftwaffe veteran in a 109F against the best IJN pilot.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=13&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=13&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Or better yet put them in Fw 190A's which entered service in the summer of 1941.
It would be a very one-sided contest... and not in the IJN's favor.
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It would be a very one-sided contest... and not in the IJN's favor.
Probably in the IJN's favor actually. The problem is the first contact. Westerners tended to grossly underestimate the Japanese and Japanese aircraft. Odds are, particularly for the RAF aces, they'd have been too agressive and turned with the A6M. No second chances.
Performance isn't everything. Hiroyoshi Nishizawa shot down the first F4U he ever saw and he was in an A6M3, something that every American had been told not to turn with. Now, that F4U pilot likely wasn't a 'Tin Legs' Bader in waiting, but by your simplistic speed = win formula at the least he ought not have been threatened by Nishizawa's A6M3.
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Probably in the IJN's favor actually. The problem is the first contact. Westerners tended to grossly underestimate the Japanese and Japanese aircraft. Odds are, particularly for the RAF aces, they'd have been too agressive and turned with the A6M. No second chances.
And incidentally, that's EXACTLY what happened to the first Spitfire pilots who encountered the Zero. Because of the lessons of the Battle of Britain, they believed their Spitfires could outturn anything.
They were wrong.
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Wall of text warning...
What people consistently fail to consider is that no Spitfire ever encountered the Zeke in 1941... Nor in 1942... The first combat Spits didn't arrive in the Far East until 1943, and then they were still only Spit VC Trop of 1941 origin. In the air battles over Darwin where these 1941 Spit V's met the Zeke for the first time they faced not the 1941 model A6M2, but the late 1942/early 1943 A6M3. These Zekes were much more comparable in performance to the now two year old Spitfires, especially since the Spits were tropicalized with the cumbersome and much maligned Vokes air filter which reduced the already outdated Spit V's performance. By 1943 the Allies had long since discovered the Zeke's performance advantages and flaws so there were no surprises left in them.
The first battles between the Spitfire and Zeke came about as a result of the Australian city of Darwin being bombed repeatedly in 1942. In response Churchill dispatched a wing of Spit VCT's to defend the city. The squadrons became known as the "Churchill Wing", although they were almost entirely crewed by Australians. The first Spits became operational in early February 1943.
On February 6, 1943 they drew first blood, shooting down a Ki-46 Dinah recce bomber, but it was to be the 2nd of March that they first faced Zekes: 21 A6M3s of the 202nd Kokutai escorted 9 G4M Bettys of the 753rd on a raid against Darwin. 20 miles off the coast a flight of six 54 squadron Spit Vs caught the raiders. An 8 minute dogfight ensued and both sides claimed to have shot down several enemies, but in fact only one Spitfire and two Zekes were damaged. Wg Cdr Caldwell noted that in tight 160 mph turns the Zeke didn't get dangerously close until after the second turn. He "easily evaded the Zeke with a downward break".
On March 15, returning from night ops and with their oxygen supply depleted, 452 sqn attacked a force of 50 Japanese aircraft split evenly between fighters and bombers. Four Spitfires were lost, but four Zekes were shot down along with three bombers, and a further seven Japanese aircraft were damaged. Two of the Spitfire pilots downed were killed, including the 452's CO, Sqn Ldr Thorold-Smith.
On May 2nd another 50 plane Japanese raid was met by all 33 of the Wings operational fighters. In a twenty five minute running battle the Spitfires suffered five losses, but claimed ten enemy aircraft in return with many more damaged. However, a further ten Spitfires were lost to fuel shortages and technical problems... The press release from MacArthur's office stated they had suffered a "severe reverse". With no way of knowing how many of their damaged foes made it back to base there was no way to refute the report; the mud stuck. When the air war over Darwin is mentioned today, the loss of 15 Spitfires for just 10 enemy aircraft inevitably surfaces. Usually with a snide comment about the accuracy of the 10 claimed by the Aussies...
On May 9, Spitfires destroyed two Zekes and damaged a third. One Spitfire was lost in a landing accident.
May 28, six Spits met thirteen Japanese aircraft. They lost two of their own, but shot down two bombers and damaged a third.
On June 20 the JAAF decided to try their luck. 30 bombers and 22 Ki-43 Oscars were met by 46 Spit VCT's. 9 bombers were destroyed, 8 more damaged, 5 Oscars were shot down and 2 damaged without losing a single Spitfire.
On June 28 a mixed bag of 18 Zekes and Bettys were bounced by 457 sqn. 3 Zekes were destroyed, 2 bombers probably joined them, for no RAAF losses.
June 30 saw the Japanese attack the USAAF base at Fenton with 27 Bettys and 20 Zekes. 4 bombers were destroyed, 4 more probably destroyed, 3 Zekes were destroyed with 6 probables, for no Spitfires lost.
July 6 saw 26 bombers and 21 fighters being engaged by the Spits. 9 Japanese aircraft were destroyed. 2 Spitfires were shot down, but 6 more were lost to mechanical failures.
The Japanese had finally had enough; they switched to night bombing...
The Spitfires, on the other side of the world from their supporting factories, often heavily outnumbered and suffering from conditions that their desert fighters were never designed to cope with, had achieved the task Churchill set for them. Far from being defeated by the Zekes, they ground them down until they could no longer support further attacks. Skill, courage and a superb fighter carried the day, even if the Spits were two years out of date, and was up against the elite 202nd Kokutai. The Japanese lost 60+ aircraft over Darwin. They shot down 16 Spitfire V's in return.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Spitfires_Darwin_%28AWM_014484%29.jpg)
Btw. I ripsnorted a lot of the engagement figures, so don't quote me as an original author.
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That British Broadcasting Corporation film cannot be watched from the UK as it is an international service, not covered by the exorbitant licence fee :bhead
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Evaded the Zeke from a 160mph luffberry by diving? Not in AH he didn't
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In the Pacific yes.
Put Douglas Bader or some other multiple-ace 1941 RAF veteran in a Spit V against the best IJN pilot.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=17&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=17&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Put Jochen Marseilles or some other multiple-ace 1941 Luftwaffe veteran in a 109F against the best IJN pilot.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=13&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=71&p2=13&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Or better yet put them in Fw 190A's which entered service in the summer of 1941.
It would be a very one-sided contest... and not in the IJN's favor.
Thats nice and stuff, but consider that the Zeke was a carrier-based fighter with all the required equipment, also its design's key criteria was the extra long range.
Both the Spitfire and the 109 are land based fighters and they both suffered from the short combat range.
Still in many vs many, the Zeke has never been a real threat to any land-based fighter.
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Spit V was a carrier based as well. Called the Seafire. It's in the game. :aok
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Spit V was a carrier based as well. Called the Seafire. It's in the game. :aok
Ever noted how sluggish the Seafire feels compared to the almost Zeek-like Spit V?
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Nope. I'm not much of a Spit driver. However, I find that strange since they both have the exact same in-game speed and climb performance curves. If one was noticably heavier than the other the climb performance would be affected. Are you sure it's not just a "feeling"?
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Pretty sure. When i was new in this game, tested every single aircraft's turning performance on the deck, with fuel for 10 mins (MA settings).
The Spit V could turn around in ~ 15.3-15.6 seconds while the Seafire needed ~16.9-17.3 seconds for the same move. There was some dispersion between the multiple re-tests.
True, it was in 2010.
Edit: the A6M2, the best turning aircraft before the arrival of the Ki-43 and excluding the Val, completed a sustained turn in ~13.7 seconds while the A6M5 needed ~14.4s for the same move.
Both aircrafts lost quite a lot from the dps while opening the flaps, the Zeeks were up in the 15.9-16.2s range, the Spit V around 16.9-17.3s and the Seafire at 18.2s.
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When you were new I think the Spit V had a higher "late-war" WEP boost. Though I'm not sure it was nerfed before or after 2010...
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You could check the weight in-game just to be sure...
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The Seafire weights more, about 440 lbs. The performance charts compare both at the same weight. The performance is approximately equivalent with the Seafire at 25% fuel compared to the Spit V at 100% fuel.
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When you were new I think the Spit V had a higher "late-war" WEP boost. Though I'm not sure it was nerfed before or after 2010...
That was changed when the Spitfires were remodeled. 2005 I seem to recall. We've had a 1941 Spitfire Mk Vb ever since.
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In AH the spitV turns way better than the seafire II. Without using flaps the La7 has a smaller turning circle and better turn rate than the seafire. On Mosq's list the spitV is number 14, the seafire is number 37.
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That was changed when the Spitfires were remodeled. 2005 I seem to recall. We've had a 1941 Spitfire Mk Vb ever since.
Ok :aok
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The Seafire weights more, about 440 lbs. The performance charts compare both at the same weight. The performance is approximately equivalent with the Seafire at 25% fuel compared to the Spit V at 100% fuel.
Ok. That makes sense considering the navalization equipment added. It is still a far better fighter than the A6M2 though.
I wonder if we will ever get the most produced Seafire, the L.Mk.III. An upgraded IIc, it had among other imporvements, Hisso V's, a more powerful Merlin (low-blown for better performance at low-medium alt which was typical for the Pacific War) and leading edge fuel tanks in the wings for increased range.
Legendary Grumman test pilot "Corky" Meyer got a chance to fly the Seafire in 1943 at the joint USAAF/USN fighter conference at Eglin Army airfield. His impression:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Seafire%20Corky%20Meyer.JPG)
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I would very much like to see the Seafire L.Mk III added to AH. :aok
The final fighter vs fighter dogfight of WWII was Seafire L.Mk IIIs against a similar number of A6M5s. While the Japanese did score, the Royal Navy pilots came off the winners in that one.
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I would very much like to see the Seafire L.Mk III added to AH. :aok
Which land based version is that Seafire converted from?
It is still a far better fighter than the A6M2 though.
Pretty much. And even more, considering how much developement potential the SpitV had (8, 16, 14, Spiteful) while the A6M2 was actually close to the design's limitations.
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Which land based version is that Seafire converted from?
It wasn't. Seafire Mk III was the first purpose built Seafire. Folding wings and everything.
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Technically it was based on the Seafire IIc which was a modified Spit V, but it was a heavily modified design straight from from the factory. (But then again, so was the Spit IX.)
(http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/3588/Seafire_F_Mk.III.jpg)
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Technically it was based on the Seafire IIc which was a modified Spit V, but it was a heavily modified design straight from from the factory. (But then again, so was the Spit IX.)
(http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/3588/Seafire_F_Mk.III.jpg)
Yeah, that is true. But that is about as true as saying the Spitfire Mk VIII is based on a Spitfire Mk II. The changes to it were significant to the point that it has to be considered purpose designed and built.
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Yup.
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Our 163 pilots shut off their engines for cruise. I've seen guys coax them all the way to the middle of the map through a combination of this and not dropping their gear/carriage.
They're probably referring specifically to the F2A-3, which was horrendously overweight and underpowered. We have the stripped-down B-239, which was an excellent fighter. The export version we sent to the Dutch was similar. It was the British export and the -3 used at Midway that tarnished the F2A's reputation (Boyington thought the earlier marks were wonderful little fighters).
The Brewster engine also overheated in tropic enviroment but worked perfect in the colder Finland. The Finns had a kill-to-death ratio of 25-30 to 1 in the brewster during 1941-44.
from the wikisite: after evaluation of claims against actual Soviet losses, aircraft BW-364 was found to have been used to achieve 42½ kills in total by all pilots operating it, possibly making it the highest-scoring fighter airframe in the history of air warfare
Sure the lack of tactic and training in the soviet air force helped the Finns but it´s still a remarkable acivement.