Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hotcoffe on May 27, 2014, 11:13:11 AM
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p47 should be this tafff... in the game as well...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64KkHHpBHRs
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Cherry picked data does not make for good representation.
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Johnson's incident is well known, and there are other stories testifying of the P-47's ruggedness. I would argue that it is pretty well represented in AH given the damage model.
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I'd say it's one of the tougher models in the game. It's the only plane in the game I know of where an oil leak means I should probably only stick around in enemy airspace for a few more minutes before RTBing, rather than immediately RTBing if I want to make it.
Wiley.
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There are some anomalies in AH though (IMO). There are a couple of AC that I think the damage model is inaccurate based on what I have read and perceive. But that has nothing to do with the P-47 so I digress
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Imo the A-20's damage model is absolute crap. Hose it down with hispanos, and a flap falls off if you're lucky.
190F also seems damn near impervious to ack.
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Imo the A-20's damage model is absolute crap. Hose it down with hispanos, and a flap falls off if you're lucky.
You're not a very good shot if you fail to bring down a Havoc after 'hosing it down with Hispanos'.
ack-ack
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Maybe he should switch to Brownings? :devil
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Question to ask is if the jugs known to survive huge amount of damage were hit with 30 cal or larger rounds?
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The P-47 can make three passes on a full up small air field without major damage albeit I would rather not make that third pass. Of course there are exceptions to this.
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Imo the A-20's damage model is absolute crap. Hose it down with hispanos, and a flap falls off if you're lucky.
190F also seems damn near impervious to ack.
Oh? I've no issue bringing down an A-20 when I'm in the A6M3. As for the 190F? Seriously??? A fart in the wind on the OTHER side of the map and I get a PW. Ack??? HA! Always seems to me that if it so much as looks in my direction, I'm missing a wing already. :bhead
As for the P-47, I have taken hits that normally sent me to the tower in just about every other attacker. Swear the thing is tougher than the Il-2... :noid
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Imo the A-20's damage model is absolute crap. Hose it down with hispanos, and a flap falls off if you're lucky.
190F also seems damn near impervious to ack.
I have no issue using my F4U's or P47's to bring down an A-20 in a single pass. The 190F isn't exactly tough either, the wings are easier to rip off than a wish bone.
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Oh? I've no issue bringing down an A-20 when I'm in the A6M3. As for the 190F? Seriously??? A fart in the wind on the OTHER side of the map and I get a PW. Ack??? HA! Always seems to me that if it so much as looks in my direction, I'm missing a wing already. :bhead
As for the P-47, I have taken hits that normally sent me to the tower in just about every other attacker. Swear the thing is tougher than the Il-2... :noid
Some can take a tater :bhead
The worst is TBM's :furious
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Ya know....if ya haven't seen the video, do. If ya have....that German...he can see the P47 is crippled and not only tries to get a cheap kill but has the audacity to pull up alongside to see the man he's about to try and kill!
3 times!
I'd have shot the P'tach (damn swear filter) with my sidearm. And then spat at him and made every rude gesture you can think of.
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Ya know....if ya haven't seen the video, do. If ya have....that German...he can see the P47 is crippled and not only tries to get a cheap kill but has the audacity to pull up alongside to see the man he's about to try and kill!
3 times!
I'd have shot the P'tach (damn swear filter) with my sidearm. And then spat at him and made every rude gesture you can think of.
Exactly. I've seen quite a few people (not the OP) refer to this incident as some form of chivalry with Egon Mayer wagging his wings in salute to Johnson and flying off when it was anything but. If Mayer still had rounds, especially cannon rounds, he would have kept firing until Johnson was dead. It was Mayer's running out of ammo that saved Johnson's life.
ack-ack
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It was Mayer's running out of ammo that saved Johnson's life.
That and 7 tones of pure luck. He should have landed his 47 next to a lottery stand and bought a ticket first thing.
The most amazing thing is that the tires were not punctured. Rubber is rubber, even in the P-47.
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Mayer was already out of ammo for his cannons. Only had couple hundred rounds of 7.98 mm left. If i remember correctly Johnson's 47 was hit by only one or two 20 mm shells.
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Mayer was already out of ammo for his cannons. Only had couple hundred rounds of 7.98 mm left. If i remember correctly Johnson's 47 was hit by only one or two 20 mm shells.
I have read about the Mayer/Johnson incident in several books and I can't recall if it was stated how many 20mm hits HV-P took in either reference. AFAIK, it has never been specified.
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Here are a couple of photos of Johnson's HV-P. You can clearly see the single 20mm hit in the rear cockpit area that wounded Johnson and damaged the hydraulics. It also trapped him inside the aircraft. The rest of the aircraft (that we can see) looks intact, but with a lot of small .30 cal holes. Johnson was very lucky those .30 cals didn't damage his controls (enough) and make him a trapped passenger in an uncontrollable aircraft.
What a feeling that must have been... Waking up in a vertical dive, oil and blood everywhere, and realizing you couldn't get out.
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/bytor94/P-47DRobertJohnonJune43HV-Pbattleda.jpg)
(http://cdn.teamflyingcircus.com/forum/attachments/f10/38223d1323371765-brutus-flight-blog-rsj5.jpg)
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I concur with what you just posted, but no way you can tell from those photos (I have them too) how many 20mm hit the AC - simply supposition. We know his AC caught fire at the initial bounce and I believe, totally conjecture on my part, that 20mm strikes caused it.
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Another thing thing to note: In the Dogfights episode, they presume Johnson tried to escape through the top part of the canopy assuming the plexiglass was shot out. These photos clearly show that was impossible. In Johnson's book Thunderbolt, he states he tries to escape.
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Yeah, I seem to remember Johnson say or write that the engine had been hit as well, but I haven't been able to find a picture of that. Which is strange since they obviously documented the damage to this P-47.
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You know things caught on fire before the use of 20mms was common.
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One thing to consider is that planes returning with damage like this were flukes. For every one that made it home untold numbers didn't make it. Also, those that did make it had very little damage by "AH standards", usually no more than a handful cannon hits, and it was these birds that gave the P-47 its reputation for toughness. Surviving a single 20mm hit in any other single engined fighter was considered lucky.
In AH I squeeze off a two second burst and send 40 20mm shells and 35 30mm shells into my victim...
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I tried watching the OP's video, but after 5 minutes I just couldn't take the exaggerations, wild animations and bravado. I much prefer the following recounting of that fateful day in Johnson's life, told by the man himself:
https://vimeo.com/96749579
Btw. in this extraordinary machinima they say that "Half Pint" took 22 cannon hits. If accurate, that's an astonishing, simply incredible amount of damage for a P-47 to survive. That's what the Luftwaffe found was needed to bring down a four-engined bomber! On that day Johnson must surely have been the luckiest man alive.
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God, 22 rounds would shred the airframe. I'd be shocked if you could detonate 22 rounds on one in a controlled environment and still have the frame be able to withstand the stress of flight.
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Johnson's incident is well known, and there are other stories testifying of the P-47's ruggedness. I would argue that it is pretty well represented in AH given the damage model.
I was surprised to find that Freeman, in "Wolfpack Warriors," casts some doubt on Johnson's version of the event.
- oldman
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I was surprised to find that Freeman, in "Wolfpack Warriors," casts some doubt on Johnson's version of the event.
- oldman
I did too! It is a great book and would encourage everyone here to pick up a copy. A bit off topic but another thing I found interesting in the book was the contrast in leadership styles of Zemke and Schilling
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I tried watching the OP's video, but after 5 minutes I just couldn't take the exaggerations, wild animations and bravado. I much prefer the following recounting of that fateful day in Johnson's life, told by the man himself:
https://vimeo.com/96749579
Btw. in this extraordinary machinima they say that "Half Pint" took 22 cannon hits. If accurate, that's an astonishing, simply incredible amount of damage for a P-47 to survive. That's what the Luftwaffe found was needed to bring down a four-engined bomber! On that day Johnson must surely have been the luckiest man alive.
Nice find, I have never seen that before :cheers:
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I killed Jazzi's P47 last night with about 5 cannon rounds left. 303's took about 25 minutes at 50 ft to saw his wing off.
He even commented on 200 saying 'holy he'll, how many rounds did you have to to put into me'
I guessed that he was sat in the tower listening to pings for a good while.
Jun's in game are this tough already :old:
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I tried watching the OP's video, but after 5 minutes I just couldn't take the exaggerations, wild animations and bravado. I much prefer the following recounting of that fateful day in Johnson's life, told by the man himself:
https://vimeo.com/96749579
Btw. in this extraordinary machinima they say that "Half Pint" took 22 cannon hits. If accurate, that's an astonishing, simply incredible amount of damage for a P-47 to survive. That's what the Luftwaffe found was needed to bring down a four-engined bomber! On that day Johnson must surely have been the luckiest man alive.
thnx for sharing
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I really wonder if there is any document left by the german pilot , telling the story from his side.
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I was surprised to find that Freeman, in "Wolfpack Warriors," casts some doubt on Johnson's version of the event.
- oldman
Didn't Freeman make the claim in that book that it was another Jug from the 56th, flown by Gerald Johnson, that was responsible?
ack-ack
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I really wonder if there is any document left by the german pilot , telling the story from his side.
If there is, no one has found any personal comments or even official records.
I was curious myself so I did a little research and it turns out that there is quite a bit of evidence in the historical record to indicate that Ergon Mayer wasn't the German pilot. That claim can be attributed to Barret Tillman and later repeated by Freeman in the "Mighty Eighth" that claimed Ergon Mayer gave a radio interview during the war in which he claimed to have shot down 3 P-47s, including one with the markings "P HV" (Johnson's P-47). However, there is no record of such interview nor did Mayer file any kill claims on that day and he was reported to have been in Brittany with his squadron.
There are records for 3 German pilots that put claims for P-47s that occurred in the area Johnson described in his own account. According to Johnson, he was attacked near Dieppe, over the English Channel. One of the German pilots, Lt. Waldemar Radener put a claim in for a P-47 after he saw it go into a spin after hitting it and another German pilot, Wilhelm Mayer, put in another claim for a P-47 in that area but had to settle for an unconfirmed as there was no other German witnesses. Mayer's claim also meshes with Johnson's account in which he stated the last attacker was a single FW 190. The third German pilot that put a claim for a P-47 in that area was Wilhelm-F. Galland, but it most likely was another 56th P-47 he shot down as Galland also put in another claim for a P-47 near Neufchâtel-en-Bray.
I guess we'll never know the other side of the story.
ack-ack
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Just checked myself, and Egon ("E" as in "egg" but hold the "E" longer + "gon" as in "gone", not "Ergon") Mayer made no claims that day. However it is possible he would not have made a claim after letting Johnson go. Who knows.
Another pilot did make a claim on that date though:
26.06.43 - Fw. Günther Scholz 5./JG 26 - P-47 - 20 km. N. Neufchâtel - 2.500m. - 19.00
Maybe it was me! :O
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IIRC the LW didn't make claims for fighters damaged or probable, though LW pilots did get credit for heavy bombers shot out of formation.
Stories tend to "expand" with the telling. "Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot/But he'll remember with advantages/What feats he did that day" as the bard said. I've read a story by a P-47 vet, in which he encounters an Fw 190-D, equipped with four 20mms, head-on over Holland in spring 1944, and returned to the U.K. with several hundred holes in his mount.
<shrug> What's to be done?
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another German pilot, Wilhelm Mayer, put in another claim for a P-47 in that area but had to settle for an unconfirmed as there was no other German witnesses. Mayer's claim also meshes with Johnson's account in which he stated the last attacker was a single FW 190.
ack-ack
Wilhelm Mayer of 7./JG 26 was the pilot who shot down G/C Pickard on the Amiens prison raid, also won the Ritterkreuz.