Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bangsbox on June 02, 2014, 04:09:45 PM
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So lately i have heard on 3 occasions, that the 30mm tater needs to be remodeled and is in the process of being remodeled.
Is there any truth in this?
whats wrong with it now?
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There are some complaints about it not doing the damage it's suppose to. A number of complaints have been filed, but as far as I know only one film sent in.
If HTC finds an issue they will fix it, if not it will stay the same.
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So lately i have heard on 3 occasions, that the 30mm tater needs to be remodeled and is in the process of being remodeled.
Is there any truth in this?
whats wrong with it now?
There was an old bug that prevented cannon round hits (30mm in particular but also affected 20mm and 37mm rounds as well) from being detected properly. It seems as though this bug, after being fixed awhile back has reared its ugly head again.
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30mm proof spit 16s boys! :O
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i have noticed fighters taking a tater and fly away seemingly unscathed (but have only seen that happen 3-4x over past 3 yrs and the 100+ other times fighters fall apart or pop).
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i hit a LA-7 with a 262 and he did not die he was smoking so i assume his engine was out i don't know i have not looked at the film but he still made it home to land
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i hit a LA-7 with a 262 and he did not die he was smoking so i assume his engine was out i don't know i have not looked at the film but he still made it home to land
If that was Friday or saturday morning[cant remember the day] it was me :devil all 3 guns and a oil hit :joystick:
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I have noticed this as well. Snuck up on a 47 while the pilot was AFK, planted a tater square into his tail section. His bird stayed in the air, and when he came back he shot me down. :bhead
IMHO he should have lost his whole tail, not just one stablizer.
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If that was Friday or saturday morning[cant remember the day] it was me :devil all 3 guns and a oil hit :joystick:
it was over the weekend i got the film but have not looked at it i will at somepoint ;)
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I have noticed this as well. Snuck up on a 47 while the pilot was AFK, planted a tater square into his tail section. His bird stayed in the air, and when he came back he shot me down. :bhead
IMHO he should have lost his whole tail, not just one stablizer.
If you hit just one stabilizer with one 30mm round, why would the whole tail come off? Remember, the Mk108 30mm cannon has a great deal of dispersion, even at relatively close ranges, meaning you could center your pipper on his tail, see the big pumpkin hit-sprite on his tail-section, but the round could easily have impacted on either horizontal stabilizer.
I find dead-six tater-shooting particularly difficult for this reason, and prefer to set up some off-angle to get a wing hit, if I can, especially on robust birds like the P-47.
<S>
Ryno
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If you hit just one stabilizer with one 30mm round, why would the whole tail come off? Remember, the Mk108 30mm cannon has a great deal of dispersion, even at relatively close ranges, meaning you could center your pipper on his tail, see the big pumpkin hit-sprite on his tail-section, but the round could easily have impacted on either horizontal stabilizer.
I find dead-six tater-shooting particularly difficult for this reason, and prefer to set up some off-angle to get a wing hit, if I can.
<S>
Ryno
Yup, deflection. Or if dead six, aim between the pilot seat and aileron (think it's called the wing root?).
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Ah, that explains it. The sprite was right in the center of the tail section from my POV, but I suppose it might not have connected exactly in that spot.
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The yellow is more of an after burst of the round impact. If you were to look at pics of 30mm hits in high cons, you might notice a small hit sprite that looks like one of a 50 cal rounds before the "cheese puff". From a dead six attack this is something you won't see. :old:
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I've not ever had issues with the 37mm or the 30mm not working.
Nothing needs to be remodeled with either caliber of weapon.
Most of the gripes come from people who think they are hitting with the "tater", but instead they are hitting with the smaller caliber weapon.
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Well I never use the MG's with the tater, so i think it was just my misperception.
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Taters still mauling things for me. When I can hit away.
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I've not ever had issues with the 37mm or the 30mm not working.
Nothing needs to be remodeled with either caliber of weapon.
Most of the gripes come from people who think they are hitting with the "tater", but instead they are hitting with the smaller caliber weapon.
so your telling me a 262 has smaller guns ok, i am not complaining at all just saying a LA7 took a tater and went home to land is all sir :salute
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I've not ever had issues with the 37mm or the 30mm not working.
Nothing needs to be remodeled with either caliber of weapon.
Most of the gripes come from people who think they are hitting with the "tater", but instead they are hitting with the smaller caliber weapon.
:rolleyes: I wonder how often you use the 30mm? It does seem very random though, but it is definitely happening.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,361888.0.html
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I've not ever had issues with the 37mm or the 30mm not working.
Nothing needs to be remodeled with either caliber of weapon.
Most of the gripes come from people who think they are hitting with the "tater", but instead they are hitting with the smaller caliber weapon.
I've had many planes take a lot of punishment from 30mms. I had an f6f that took 3 "puffs". I fire my secondary (tater) separate from the MG's. The most memorable one to me, was getting a beautiful deflection shot on an a6m2. I was diving from his 9 o clock high, and hit him from prop to tail with 30mm, and he lived to shoot me down :lol .
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I've not ever had issues with the 37mm or the 30mm not working.
Nothing needs to be remodeled with either caliber of weapon.
Most of the gripes come from people who think they are hitting with the "tater", but instead they are hitting with the smaller caliber weapon.
The hit sprites from the 12.7 and the tater are so different I don't think very many people are confusing them.
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:rolleyes: I wonder how often you use the 30mm? It does seem very random though, but it is definitely happening.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,361888.0.html
I've never had a problem differentiating between the big "cheese poof" of the 30 mm and the smaller "pop pops" of the 20mm when flying the 110G. I've also encountered situations where I clearly appeared to score a 30 hit on something that should have gone down (A6M) but didn't. I just write it off as lag because it's pretty rare.
And yes.... "cheese poof" and "pop pops" are technical terms. :)
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and yes.... "cheese poof" and "pop pops" are technical terms. :)
:rofl
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The engine of most aircraft will take a tater hit without destroying the whole plane. The engine is usually dead though. Don't aim for that big solid block of iron up front.
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362989.0.html :cry
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The engine of most aircraft will take a tater hit without destroying the whole plane. The engine is usually dead though. Don't aim for that big solid block of iron up front.
If memory serves I was behind the target, but its possible I admit. Like I said, not a big deal to me. If one doesnt do it, use three! :D
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Taters are easy to aim from dead six, just gotta lead. :cool:
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I've never taken a 30mm hit and lived, that I know of, in fighters. I did take a 37mm hit in a Spit XIV and live once (radiator got holed), but 30mm do a right proper job on me.
I haven't used the 30mm enough to really comment, but in my limited experience it works. I have a couple memorable 30mm kills. I do know that there was a bug that effectively caused duds. Hopefully it hasn't been brought back to life.
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Yes sir it does indeed work....but maybe I don't get as upset on the very rare occations it doesn't because I'm in a 110 and not a K4 ie I have a lot more to toss out in if the first one doesn't do the job. I personally think that's why I seem to be a better shot with it in a 110 as well. I tend to be relaxed and not as worried about hitting on the first shot as opposed to the K4 where I'm thinking about making EVERY ROUND count.
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Yes sir it does indeed work....but maybe I don't get as upset on the very rare occations it doesn't because I'm in a 110 and not a K4 ie I have a lot more to toss out in if the first one doesn't do the job. I personally think that's why I seem to be a better shot with it in a 110 as well. I tend to be relaxed and not as worried about hitting on the first shot as opposed to the K4 where I'm thinking about making EVERY ROUND count.
Makes sense.
I wonder how good I will be in the 262. :devil
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:rolleyes: I wonder how often you use the 30mm? It does seem very random though, but it is definitely happening.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,361888.0.html
A couple of things:
First, I said "most" people who complain are seeing hit sprites of smaller caliber weapons. Not all.
Secondly, I use the 30mm quite a bit actually. In the 109G-14 in most cases. Sometimes though I do use it in the 109K-4 and 190A-8 when bomber hunting.The 190A-8 is real tricky, three different caliber of guns = three very different trajectories so I rarely do not fire far out of convergence (400).
Thirdly, as I said I don't seem to have a problem with the 30mm. Ever. I hit and the target gets damaged or destroyed. I don't use the 37mm much, I'll admit. However, my memory serves me well and I cant recall ever hitting something with the 37mm and not noticing major effects.
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I used to fly the 190A8 almost exclusively. With the 30mom's, if you hit, they almost always go down.
Occasionally you will encounter a single hit to a wing or tail section to that doesn't cause catastrophic damage. This is usually because the shell impacts the very edge of a control surface or tail plane, and the shell simply doesn't do enough splash damage to destroy adjacent components. This is not a bug, it its just an oddity of the all or nothing damage model.
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In the process of burning up perkies in deuces I see far too many instances of popping a fighter or bomber with multiple 30mm sprites to only get an assist.
I am assured that there are NO errors in the coading.
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In the process of burning up perkies in deuces I see far too many instances of popping a fighter or bomber with multiple 30mm sprites to only get an assist.
I am assured that there are NO errors in the coading.
From what I understand the guy who gets the kill is the one that does the most damage up to fatal damage has occurred. After the target has received fatal damage further hits do not count towards getting the kill. So if someone raked the target with .50 cals and did a lot of damage (points), but spread it all over the aircraft so no critical damage occurred, he is likely to get the kill when someone comes in and does that last bit of damage to a critical component. Your first tater probably did that last bit of fatal damage and thus all your subsequent hits didn't count.
Let's say a the wing of the target aircraft can take a total of 100 damage point before failure. I rake that wing with machine guns and do 80 points of damage; not enough to take the wing off. You come in with your 262 and fire a 100 round burst of 30mm shells at the target. Your first shell does the last 20 points of damage to the wing and it falls off. At that point the target has received fatal damage and the game stops registering damage for the purpose of awarding kills (to prevent people from kill-stealing crippled aircraft). The rest of your thousands of points of damage are ignored and you're only awarded 20 points of damage dealt to the enemy. I'm awarded 80 points for my initial attack, and thus I get the kill.
At least that's how I understand how it works...
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From what I understand the guy who gets the kill is the one that does the most damage up to fatal damage has occurred. After the target has received fatal damage further hits do not count towards getting the kill. So if someone raked the target with .50 cals and did a lot of damage (points), but spread it all over the aircraft so no critical damage occurred, he is likely to get the kill when someone comes in and does that last bit of damage to a critical component. Your first tater probably did that last bit of fatal damage and thus all your subsequent hits didn't count.
Let's say a the wing of the target aircraft can take a total of 100 damage point before failure. I rake that wing with machine guns and do 80 points of damage; not enough to take the wing off. You come in with your 262 and fire a 100 round burst of 30mm shells at the target. Your first shell does the last 20 points of damage to the wing and it falls off. At that point the target has received fatal damage and the game stops registering damage for the purpose of awarding kills (to prevent people from kill-stealing crippled aircraft). The rest of your thousands of points of damage are ignored and you're only awarded 20 points of damage dealt to the enemy. I'm awarded 80 points for my initial attack, and thus I get the kill.
At least that's how I understand how it works...
Using your example. To me, the assist should award the perks based on damage done to the target. So the 50 cal user would earn (assuming you earn 1 perk for a kill), .80 perks, and the assist would get you .20. Assist are a punch to the gut, especially when you only seen the enemy, and don't know if he's been in combat or not. So why not give a little bit of a reward for it?
Not meaning to hi-jack, but it is a thought that came up when I read your post.
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So why not give a little bit of a reward for it?
You already get a reward for assist in terms of score points. Actually you can get way more points for assists than for for the kill itself, as score points are based on damage inflicted.
And I'm very much against any additional reward for assists, most notably perk points.
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You already get a reward for assist in terms of score points. Actually you can get way more points for assists than for for the kill itself, as score points are based on damage inflicted.
And I'm very much against any additional reward for assists, most notably perk points.
The only con I can see to it (which is what the current system has an issue with now), is 'pray n spray-ers'.
Didn't know that assist really counted to anything score wise. Too bad scores mean nothing in-game other than rank.. which is useless as well. :rolleyes:
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I got hit by 3 30mms from a 262 coming up from my low 6. Engine smoking, half my right wing and 3 guns shot out.
The pilot politely told me "please die !" on ch200 , I responded "only a scratch" .
When I didn't die, he zoomed in for the kill and collided with me (on his FE) without hitting me again :rofl
I was flying an A8.
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Yesterday I plugged a B25 with at least 3 taters, two in the tail and at least one in the right wing. He didn't lose a single part. Got the kill credit only after another pilot put 300 rounds of .50's in him.
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Yesterday I plugged a B25 with at least 3 taters, two in the tail and at least one in the right wing. He didn't lose a single part. Got the kill credit only after another pilot put 300 rounds of .50's in him.
B25s and b29s are some of the few planes that I understand not dying with a few rounds. Any fighter though, including the Ki84 (sorry ink :P ) should die with 1-2 rounds.
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B25s and b29s are some of the few planes that I understand not dying with a few rounds. Any fighter though, including the Ki84 (sorry ink :P ) should die with 1-2 rounds.
:D
I do agree :aok
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Yesterday I plugged a B25 with at least 3 taters, two in the tail and at least one in the right wing. He didn't lose a single part. Got the kill credit only after another pilot put 300 rounds of .50's in him.
You're two taters short of what the Luftwaffe figured would bring down a four-engined bomber, on average. Bad luck.
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Yak9T should be perked :old:
Thudd! Thudd! Boom!
Only small amount of cannon ammo because more is baggage :old:
Its is a "Typhoon" that is wired :old:
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Thudd! Thudd! Boom!
We will we will rock you!
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Yes!
Its the Freddie Mercury of AH :)
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(http://www.theridersdigest.co.uk/newsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Freddie-Mercury-freddie-mercury-31110774-700-939.jpg)
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(http://www.theridersdigest.co.uk/newsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Freddie-Mercury-freddie-mercury-31110774-700-939.jpg)
While I respect the man tremendously, I didn't need to see him in that costume. :confused:
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Well, it is very... Luftwaffe... :uhoh
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I have a laminated copy of that photo :old:
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(http://www.theridersdigest.co.uk/newsite/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Freddie-Mercury-freddie-mercury-31110774-700-939.jpg)
is this some form of entertaintment or am i wrong?
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If you hit just one stabilizer with one 30mm round, why would the whole tail come off? Remember, the Mk108 30mm cannon has a great deal of dispersion, even at relatively close ranges, meaning you could center your pipper on his tail, see the big pumpkin hit-sprite on his tail-section, but the round could easily have impacted on either horizontal stabilizer.
I find dead-six tater-shooting particularly difficult for this reason, and prefer to set up some off-angle to get a wing hit, if I can, especially on robust birds like the P-47.
<S>
Ryno
Um, yeah.
There was a reason the allies called the mk 108 "the pneumatic hammer"...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/mk108_zpsf6cb7105.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/tymekeepyr/media/mk108_zpsf6cb7105.jpg.html)
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is this some form of entertaintment or am i wrong?
It's Freddy Mercury/Queen on stage.
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I like the "like a G6" tater song :rock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ex9wWCNto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ex9wWCNto)
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I like the "like a G6" tater song :rock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ex9wWCNto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ex9wWCNto)
:rock
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I wonder why the pic's text says "its low muzzle velocity rendered is unsuitable for ground strafing.
Why is that a thing?
Um, yeah.
There was a reason the allies called the mk 108 "the pneumatic hammer"...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/mk108_zpsf6cb7105.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/tymekeepyr/media/mk108_zpsf6cb7105.jpg.html)
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mk108 did not explode on contact if my memory serves me right.
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mk108 did not explode on contact if my memory serves me right.
Wouldn't it just go right through an unarmored airframe then?
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You should probably ask Hitech which detonator he is modeling for the MK108. Also since he is loading a mixed belt of 1 day tracer for 2 non-tracer. He is shooting two different ballistic coefficient rounds due more to the ogive and tail shape of the day tracer round than the loss of mass from tracer burn.
Duplex - Contact explosion
VC70 - Delayed explosion - About 10cm of travel after penetration of the skin.
Anyone who reloads can see the issues with the first round's ogive and tail shape opposed to the second round with day tracer.
Non-tracer
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/MK108/MK10801.jpg)
Day tracer.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/MK108/MK10802.jpg)
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I wonder why the pic's text says "its low muzzle velocity rendered is unsuitable for ground strafing.
Why is that a thing?
I would imagine that is because it didn't have the kinetic energy to penetrate objects as well as some other rounds. It seems to be enough to penetrate an aluminum airframe, however :devil
Wouldn't it just go right through an unarmored airframe then?
No doubt. It seems to me that, even if it didn't detonate, the damage is caused by what debris it picks-up on the way out the other side, creating a larger exit hole. Also, once there is a large hole in the airframe, the structural integrity of the plane becomes compromised and exposed to stresses that it wasn't meant to handle.
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Interesting. So it really is just throwing a bowling ball and hoping it hits.
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If I'm not mistaken incendiary MK108 shells often had hydrostatic fuses, exploding in contact with fuel. Self-sealing fuel tanks were useless against them, obviously!
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There were many different shells available to the MK 108, even armor piercing. Despite its low(ish) muzzle velocity it is still a 30mm cannon with 66,000 joules of muzzle energy. For comparison a Hispano II has 45,000 joules at the muzzle.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/30mmMK108ammo.JPG)
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MK108 couldn't penetrate far enough to be an issue to fuel tanks with longer range impacts than 100m being surface or very shallow penetration explosions. The MK103 shot the same round's as the MK108 between 800-900m\sec due to a larger shell capacity. While it shot the same rebated cartridges as the MK101 with a slight reduced powder load and electronic primer.
Firing tests during ww2 in England were performed at or inside of 100yds under ideal static mounted conditions. Or the round was hung inside of a fuselage and remotely detonated. Not the combat ranges over Germany in the air where most contacts were surface or very shallow penetration explosions.
By 400m the MK108 round slowed down to 400m\sec while the MK103 firing the same round from a larger capacity shell, it only slowed down to 711m\sec. Very quickly with the MK108 you need a perfect 90 degree impact to get even minor penetration before detonation. Other wise it's almost all surface detonation. But, the same explosive power as a single stick grenade going off sitting next to the skin. And there are many photos of bombers and fighters landing after direct and near direct ack hits.
The AAF identified the greatest damage done to aircraft by mine shells 20mm\30mm, was the killing and wounding of bomber crews from the casing shrapnel. But, then our game is not about dismembering humans to achieve war objectives. POST war testing of explosions to blow up planes visa exploding inside of the fuel tank, found 20\30mm rounds could not carry enough content to do the job. Aviation fuel would not stay lit in the slip stream above 110mph. So most fires took place in internal cavities while mostly black smoke was seen until the aircraft slowed down enough not to snuff out the fire in the slipstream.
Much of this is available from declassified testing reports POST WW2 1945-1948 from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds and 8th AAF. Do a search for ADA800109.pdf for fuel tank fires.
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By 400m the MK108 round slowed down to 400m\sec while the MK103 firing the same round from a larger capacity shell, it only slowed down to 711m\sec. Very quickly with the MK108 you need a perfect 90 degree impact to get even minor penetration before detonation. Other wise it's almost all surface detonation.
You're saying a 30mm shell weighing a third of a kilo (three quarters of a pound) going 400 meters per second... that's supersonic btw... won't penetrate the aluminum skin of a plane?
You know... on some WWII planes you could penetrate the skin with a knife.
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If you do not hit at enough angle to the fuze so it engages the skin, the ogive will slide along the skin, and with the sudden impact throwing the striker back on the two fuze types used. Aircraft are made up of curved surfaces. I guess the AAF and Aberdeen need to confer with you in this case. Still, they no longer exist but you do. So you win by existing....cheers..... :aok
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That's ridiculous. Even from a dead six shot it would rip through half the wing before detonation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek
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Would depend on where it strikes probably. Fabric covered control surfaces probably wouldn't offer much resistance regardless of impact angle, also placing the round 'in' the wing.
A Hurricane would be screwed.
But regardless, a 30mm round detonating on or near the airframe will still do considerable damage, so it's a somewhat moot point as to whether the round would actually penetrate the skin.
That spitfire would probably lose its wing were that damage sustained mid flight.
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At 400 meters per second the shell still carries 35,000 joules of kinetic energy. 10,000 joules less than a Hispano II at the muzzle or about twice that of a .50 cal M2 at the muzzle. With that energy a dud shell will pass clean through any aircraft structure and only stop if it hits a major component like an engine or a fuel/oil tank. According to the Luftwaffe the thermite-filled incendiary minengeschoss rounds were very effective in fireballing bombers.
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Striking in an ideal position and angle, I'm sure it could. But striking at an off angle, the skin wouldn't have to stop 35,000j, but only maybe 5000j dispersed over the area of the shell impacting the skin. The rest of the energy is redirected onto a slightly different trajectory.
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What would this angle have to be to allow a 0.032 inch or 0.040 inch (one millimeter ... ONE) plate of aluminum (as on the B-17) to deflect a three-quarter pound supersonic projectile? Is there an angle where a sheet of paper will deflect a pistol round? No. Not unless were talking hypothetical and academic. In real life situations the MK 108 round easily penetrated any aircraft skin it hit, at any angle.
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What would this angle have to be to allow a 0.032 inch or 0.040 inch (one millimeter ... ONE) plate of aluminum (as on the B-17) to deflect a three-quarter pound supersonic projectile? Is there an angle where a sheet of paper will deflect a pistol round? No. Not unless were talking hypothetical and academic. In real life situations the MK 108 round easily penetrated any aircraft skin it hit, at any angle.
It's the same principle as tank armor. Take even the KwK 43 and shoot it at the side of an M4 angled 80 degrees from perpendicular, and it will bounce off, despite having enough energy to punch through the side 7 times over. Because the tip of the shell does not engage the armor, there is no penetration, only deflection.
Now at any real angel, is it going to deflect? No, 1mm of armor isn't thick enough to gain any real benefits of effective thickness. If the tip engages, the round will penetrate. But dead 6? There's a chance of deflection off the wings and fuselage sides, not because the round isn't carrying enough energy, but because 95% of the energy isn't directed against the skin.
To answer your original question, I would guess 65+° for deflection to occur, depending on which round you posted above is impacting the skin. Far right would need ~75+° just because the tip is so steeply angeled.
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Are you serious?! IT ISN'T ARMOR! It's ALUMINUM. It's a tin can! The shell could be tumbling sideways and it would still penetrate every time.
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Are you serious?! IT ISN'T ARMOR! It's ALUMINUM. It's a tin can! The shell could be tumbling sideways and it would still penetrate every time.
Irrelevant, once again, the skin isn't taking the full force of the round. It's absorbing whatever energy is directed perpendicular to the skin, as defined by the component vectors defining the rounds instantaneous vector of travel.
But once again, whether or not the round penetrates is a bit irrelevant, given that it's 19g of HE filler detonating against or very close to the skin. It will cause considerable damage either way.
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19g huh? ... you're clueless. It carries 85g of explosives; 73g for the tracer version.
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Oh, and to continue your tank-armor analogy... slope means nothing, nothing at all, when you have a shot overmatch factor of 30:1!
Overmatching negates the effective slope of the armor, making the armor not as strong if hit by a drastically thicker shell. Overmatching can be determined by a simple formula T/d (Thickness of armor / diameter of shell). Overmatching will not occur if T/d = 1.00 or greater, but will occur if T/d is less then 1.00.
You can angle the armor any way you want, but beyond a certain point of shot overmatching plate, the obliquity will cease to be relevant. A one millimeter plate resisting a 30 millimeter shell is like the 51 mm front glasis plate of an M4 Sherman trying to resist a 1530 mm shell... It is simply ridiculous.
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Oh, and to continue your tank-armor analogy... slope means nothing, nothing at all, when you have a shot overmatch factor of 30:1!
Overmatching negates the effective slope of the armor, making the armor not as strong if hit by a drastically thicker shell. Overmatching can be determined by a simple formula T/d (Thickness of armor / diameter of shell). Overmatching will not occur if T/d = 1.00 or greater, but will occur if T/d is less then 1.00.
You can angle the armor any way you want, but beyond a certain point of shot overmatching plate, the obliquity will cease to be relevant. A one millimeter plate resisting a 30 millimeter shell is like the 51 mm front glasis plate of an M4 Sherman trying to resist a 1530 mm shell... It is simply ridiculous.
Once again, the armor isn't resisting the shell in this case, nor is the plane's skin.
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Then the shell isn't hitting the skin and this is all academic... As I said. As long as the shell's path of motion is intersecting with the plate, penetration will occur no matter what. The End.
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It is contacting the skin, but at such an angel that it's trajectory is near parallel to the skin.
The result is that the tip does not even contact the skin, what first contacts the skin is the corner of the round (if you want to call it that) where the side of the casing begins, and the nose ends. This makes a very poor penetrater, and coupled with the severe angle and resultingly small effective force (only a few thousand joules are actually directed against the skin), the normal force applied BY the skin is sufficient that the round will slightly alter it's course to be either perfectly parallel to or directed slightly away from the skin.
This is part of what makes APDS rounds so effective. The tip can be extremely steep without being extremely long and less practical, thus requiring a correspondingly steep angle of impact before the tip does not engage, and normalization fails to occur.
Now this isn't to say the skin will be unmarked, denting, and minor tearing is likely to occur. But unless the tip gets below the skin, almost all resistive forces will be pushing the round back away from the skin.
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And the resistive forces are effectively nil. The shell will continue to push the tin-can skin aside until the nose contacts the skin. Deflection will effectively be nil. The friction of contact with the skin will even normalize the shell causing it to nose into the skin.
Is there an angle where a sheet of paper will deflect a pistol round? No. Obviously not. And a supersonic 30 mm shell vs a 1 mm plate of aluminum is an even more lopsided case.
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You guys need to tuck away your e-noodle and relax a bit.
Me thinks you both are on the same page, just different angles of how you're getting there.
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So we're talking about a scenario where a 30mm shell is fired at an angle almost perfectly parallel to the skin of another aircraft, where it has an incredibly small chance to skid along the aircraft's surface instead of penetrating. For this to work the shell would also have to dodge any rivets, not catch on a panel line, tumble or simply dig a channel in the aluminium that ends up catching and detonating it. For me it's such an improbable scenario that I really doubt it happened over german skies in WWII. We're at "two bullets shot from two guns collide in mid-air" level speculation.
Or maybe I'm entirely mistaken and I deserve a spanking :uhoh
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No, you got the gist of it...
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So we're talking about a scenario where a 30mm shell is fired at an angle almost perfectly parallel to the skin of another aircraft, where it has an incredibly small chance to skid along the aircraft's surface instead of penetrating. For this to work the shell would also have to dodge any rivets, not catch on a panel line, tumble or simply dig a channel in the aluminium that ends up catching and detonating it. For me it's such an improbable scenario that I really doubt it happened over german skies in WWII. We're at "two bullets shot from two guns collide in mid-air" level speculation.
Or maybe I'm entirely mistaken and I deserve a spanking :uhoh
not really. The plane is more sheet aluminum than rivets, and a shell may or may not deflect before traveling along the skin and having the side scrape against a seam.
Besides that, depending on the sensitivity of the fuze, it might not just fly off into the distance and detonate an inch above the skin, but an inch below it. In this sense, it's purely academic.
Any dead six shot has a chance at generating this and I would bet the fate of the entire free world that it happened.
Now I'm not saying it saved any aircraft, given that it might just detonate against the skin, still doing catastrophic damage, and it's an autocannon.
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Any dead six shot has a chance at generating this and I would bet the fate of the entire free world that it happened.
Now I'm not saying it saved any aircraft, given that it might just detonate against the skin, still doing catastrophic damage, and it's an autocannon.
The more I think about it, the less sure I am that it couldn't happen. It would be impossible to reproduce that scenario nowadays, but I could try something very roughly similar. I got an air rifle (european noguns master race here... :bhead), some aluminium sheets thinner than 1mm and an awful lot of free time. Give me a few days and I'll give you my veredict. Or another complaint from the neighbours :P.
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as an experiment,take 1 rock and a body of water,now drop the rock,does it penetrate the water?
Ok now throw the rock at an angle to the water,what happens?
Same principle as the round striking on an angle,what is the angle required to deflect the round,that is the only thing in dispute here.
Or to use the pistol,take a piece of aluminum and place it at a 90 degree angle,will the bullet penetrate?
Now take the same piece of aluminum and place it at an angle,only the degree of angle will matter.
The LW spent alot of time and money trying to get the fusing correct to acheive the most damage,IIRC I read they had trouble with the rounds going off too soon and not penetrating into the A/C.
:salute
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The LW spent alot of time and money trying to get the fusing correct to acheive the most damage,IIRC I read they had trouble with the rounds going off too soon and not penetrating into the A/C.
That's why they developed a fuse like the Bodenzünder 1584, which was armed by the first impact and only went off at the second impact.
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That's why they developed a fuse like the Bodenzünder 1584, which was armed by the first impact and only went off at the second impact.
Yup! :aok
:salute
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as an experiment,take 1 rock and a body of water,now drop the rock,does it penetrate the water?
Ok now throw the rock at an angle to the water,what happens?
Except that water has a lot more resistance than a 1mm aluminum plate. Water will stop just about any high velocity round in just a few meters. You can skip artillery rounds off water and 4-ton bombs... A 1mm aluminum plate, not so much...
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Except that water has a lot more resistance than a 1mm aluminum plate. Water will stop just about any high velocity round in just a few meters. You can skip artillery rounds off water and 4-ton bombs... A 1mm aluminum plate, not so much...
AS I expected you missed my point,because you are bound and determined to prove yours!
If you dropped a rock on the aluminum will it sink through it? No because it has a much higher density.... doh!
I'm surprize an ex military type like you has never seen a round deflect off a branch or similar substance of less resistance....
YMMV.
:salute
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AS I expected you missed my point,because you are bound and determined to prove yours!
If you dropped a rock on the aluminum will it sink through it? No because it has a much higher density.... doh!
I'm surprize an ex military type like you has never seen a round deflect off a branch or similar substance of less resistance....
YMMV.
:salute
Was shooting pickerel on L.Champlain one evening. My Dad's round skipped off the surface hit a tree, traveled up the tree, hit a branch, deflected straight back, and hit my ole man right in the chest.
True story.
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Was shooting pickerel on L.Champlain one evening. My Dad's round skipped off the surface hit a tree, traveled up the tree, hit a branch, deflected straight back, and hit my ole man right in the chest.
True story.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Your Honour,I rest my case!
:salute
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I think the game doesn't treat aircraft armor the same as GVs. Think of strafing a tank or an IL2 with 30cals, nothing will bounce off the IL. If the changes recently to the 30mm are because of penetration considerations, then neutering the 30mms damage over longer distances is not realistic and gives inconsistent results.
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I suspect no one here has researched the MK108 round far enough to know it had a right hand spin drift issue due to the ballistic coefficient and 23 inch short barrel with 1:16 twist to unlock the fuze. Along with crappy dispersion past 100m. The same round fired from the MK103 didn't experience this issue with a 47inch barrel. Past 100m due to it the single MK108 round had stability issues. Throw in some turbulence from the bomber. That's why ganging the MK108 was the preferred platform method. Some 190 pilots would stay back from the bombers and lob the MK108 rounds hoping for the self destruct at 1100m would send shrapnel into the bombers rather than try to get closer to hit the bombers.
Heavy AAF bombers in the ETO were not blown from the air in droves like we do in the game with the MK108. The greatest danger to the bombers was crew being slaughtered by the shrapnel from flack, 20mm, and 30mm round casings. Bombers were very tough without much armor for the crew. A single 20mm going off in the nose, no bombardier. In the cockpit, no flight crew. Many of the Luft combat footage against single bombers from the rear have some common factors. You don't see the other bombers in the tight elements. Not a lot of return fire is happening. And you don't get the sense of high closing speed by the fighter the camera is filming from. You kill the crew from high speed passes sending 20mm into the fuselage and you end up with crippled stragglers to make nice footage of when you finish them off.
I think Hitech pulls his ww2 blast data from an ARMY historical site that has ww2 AAF ETO bomber post mortem data and pictures of the damage a single 20mm HE can do. A common death for crew was bleeding to death from single tiny round casing fragments cutting arteries, then bleeding out in minutes due to the low air pressure. One post mortem photo showed about 70 tiny 20mm fragments collected out of the radio compartment where the radioman died from exsanguination along with a gunner. It was a very common scenario. Killing crew in ww2 was more likely to happen in a single pass than hitting anything critical enough to drop a B17 or B24 out of the air like we do in the game.
The 88 AA round was never expected to hit the bombers. The detonation was expected to kill crew and damage the bombers with shrapnel. That's why the ack fields were so dense. All testing of the MK108 in Germany and subsequently in England was under ideal conditions for that specific round and it's deficiencies on the ground. For penetration, acknowledged by testing at Rechlin, it was a 100m or less round. It's greatest effect was setting off the equivalent of an antipersonnel stick grenade against the skin of a bomber sending shrapnel into the structures around it. This is not to say penetration wasn't possible. Testing dictated to expect using the round for it's shrapnel effect at distances past 100m.
Many of the photos of ammo beltings for the MK108 and attached shot tubes are misleading about the outcome. The shot tubes are from 163, 262, 110, belly pack, wing pack or Schräge Musik installations. Any armor piercing or incendiary rounds will be most likely for a situation in which the plane could survive being 100m and closer from the target like Schräge Musik in a night fighter.
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I'm surprize an ex military type like you has never seen a round deflect off a branch or similar substance of less resistance....
YMMV.
:salute
Sure I have... Even snow. However that's completely different from a several kilojoule supersonic projectile weighing .73 lbs hitting a tin can. Once the aluminum plate gives it offers no more resistance. Water and snow offers constant resistance no matter how deep they're penetrated.
I'll ask you the same question I asked earlier: At what angle will a sheet of paper deflect a pistol round? The overmatch factor is much greater with a 30mm round and a 1mm plate of aluminum. There is no angle that will cause a deflection. Sure the round can fly parallel to the sheet of paper/aluminum and still touch the surface, but that is really a miss.
:salute
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Sure I have... Even snow. However that's completely different from a several kilojoule supersonic projectile weighing .73 lbs hitting a tin can. Once the aluminum plate gives it offers no more resistance. Water and snow offers constant resistance no matter how deep they're penetrated.
I'll ask you the same question I asked earlier: At what angle will a sheet of paper deflect a pistol round? The overmatch factor is much greater with a 30mm round and a 1mm plate of aluminum. There is no angle that will cause a deflection. Sure the round can fly parallel to the sheet of paper/aluminum and still touch the surface, but that is really a miss.
:salute
Paper is certainly weaker than that 1mm of duralumin relative to the energy is supposed to deflect. It's certainly less stiff.
And you seem to be entirely dismissing the fact that 95% of the round's energy is not directed along such a vector that it will interact with the skin. At 80 degrees, the energy imparted on the skin is less than the force of an 85kg man standing on the wing.
Hell, in your mind, the round could be 3 arcseconds off of parallel, and because the total energy carried by the round is 35kj, 35kj of energy is directed against the skin. In your mind, that round would just go through the wing like it's paper.
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Continuing this discussion would be a waste of time, so lets just leave it at that. :salute
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Paper is very strong for its weight. You can make an effective body armor by strapping phone books around your body. It will stop most pistol caliber rounds unless you're unlucky enough for the round to pass between the books :)