Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on June 08, 2014, 01:49:28 PM
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:airplane: There have been many post's in this forum concerning flying aircraft in here and in real life. One of the keys to learning how to fly in here and in real life, is knowing the different flight controls and how they affect aircraft performance. Following are some questions for you to ponder!
A- An aircraft, be it a Storch or F-15 in real life, operate about 3 axe's!
1-Name the three axe's
2- Which axe's does the ailerons control?
3- Which axe's does the elevator control?
4- Which axe's does the rudder control?
All the aircraft in AH operate useing these flight princpals! Having said that, which flight control is the most important for maintaining safe flight?
When flying with auto trim off, which keys on the computer keyboard can you use to trim your aircraft with?
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yawl like to pitch these little quizzies around so much we roll around laughing :rolleyes:
but seriously,only a fool would let his ailerons go :(
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Although cobia already (cleverly) gave the answer I'll try too:
1) Yaw (rotation about an axis vertical through the cockpit), Pitch (rotation about an axis through the wings), Roll (rotation about the axis down the fuselage).
2) roll
3) pitch
4) yaw
I wouldn't want to be without pitch (elevator). If the wing has dihedral you can get the plane to roll using the rudder or you can get the plane to yaw using the ailerons. But without an elevator I see a faceplant in my future.
On my setup the I and K trim pitch and J and L trim roll and < and > trim yaw.
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yawl like to pitch these little quizzies around so much we roll around laughing :rolleyes:
but seriously,only a fool would let his ailerons go :(
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:airplane: While you make a point about the ailerons, in a real life situation, in here or the real thing, the rudder would be the most effective. The reason I say this is, in the slow speed flight confg, while trying to land, the rudder would be most effective in directional control, which you would need for landing. Pitch control can be maintained using a combination of power,(throttle), landing gear and or flaps. While the ailerons would be of some use to you, if you stalled the aircraft trying to land, ailerons would be of no use to you at all, where as the rudder is the most and quickest way to recover from a stall condition. As an aircraft slows down, the ailerons are the first control to lose effectiveness.
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Although cobia already (cleverly) gave the answer I'll try too:
1) Yaw (rotation about an axis vertical through the cockpit), Pitch (rotation about an axis through the wings), Roll (rotation about the axis down the fuselage).
2) roll
3) pitch
4) yaw
I wouldn't want to be without pitch (elevator). If the wing has dihedral you can get the plane to roll using the rudder or you can get the plane to yaw using the ailerons. But without an elevator I see a faceplant in my future.
On my setup the I and K trim pitch and J and L trim roll and < and > trim yaw.
:airplane: Correct on all points!
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:airplane: While you make a point about the ailerons, in a real life situation, in here or the real thing, the rudder would be the most effective. The reason I say this is, in the slow speed flight confg, while trying to land, the rudder would be most effective in directional control, which you would need for landing. Pitch control can be maintained using a combination of power,(throttle), landing gear and or flaps. While the ailerons would be of some use to you, if you stalled the aircraft trying to land, ailerons would be of no use to you at all, where as the rudder is the most and quickest way to recover from a stall condition. As an aircraft slows down, the ailerons are the first control to lose effectiveness.
I have yet to land a plane missing both ailerons in this game,it allways results in an upside down situation.
SO i will have to disagree with you :P
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What is the normal order of rotation when using these as classic Euler angles.
HiTech
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I have yet to land a plane missing both ailerons in this game,it allways results in an upside down situation.
SO i will have to disagree with you :P
The 38 excels at this! :lol
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I guess from a programing perspective you would use Euler angles opposed to the OP asking for Tait-Bryan angles.
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I have yet to land a plane missing both ailerons in this game,it allways results in an upside down situation.
SO i will have to disagree with you :P
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p659/XxDaSTaRXx/ahss32_zps7c430c5b.png)
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(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p659/XxDaSTaRXx/ahss32_zps7c430c5b.png)
:O
:rofl :rofl :rofl
thats awesome.
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(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p659/XxDaSTaRXx/ahss32_zps7c430c5b.png)
:airplane: This is a good example of a successful landing, by a pilot, who knew his aircraft, its controls and how they affect flight. While it is great to have "split" throttles on multi-engine aircraft in this game, its really not necessary for control purposes. The one intent of this thread was to put emphasis on the fact that the one control that you will always have some method of controlling the aircraft is the RUDDER! I would recommend that every pilot in this game, work on slow flight, using just the rudder, so that when the time comes, and it will, you HAVE to land using nothing but rudder, then it is no big deal, just careful planning ahead. The only aircraft in this game that I fly on a regular basis, which does not have a very effective rudder is the B-29, all other bombers and multi engine aircraft have very effective rudders and was modeled, near as I can tell, correctly.
For any of them, I would recommend a 100IAS, plus 10 on final approach, that way control should be no problem using just rudder for directional control.
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In AH, I've landed planes missing 1 set of each control surfaces and maybe in one case missing rudder and elevators, but never missing ailerons and rudder (which to me seems impossible).
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In AH, I've landed planes missing 1 set of each control surfaces and maybe in one case missing rudder and elevators, but never missing ailerons and rudder (which to me seems impossible).
Missing ailerons AND rudder IS pretty much impossible. (Unless they're shot off AS you're flaring for landing)
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Missing ailerons AND rudder IS pretty much impossible. (Unless they're shot off AS you're flaring for landing)
Impossible? No. Difficult? Yes. Remember, you don't have to land on the runway, just exit the plane on the runway. I've taxied a long way, steering with the brakes, until I was on pavement...
I fly the A-20 a lot... Losing control surfaces is a common malady. You learn to adapt, use differential engine power... Just get it down somewhere near the base and taxi in...
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I would say that in real life you are screwed without elevators and that is most likley the cause if u loose ailerons too. W/o elevators all efforts to slow down will inevitably make the nose drop and make the plane dive. Flaps could help u a little, it depends on wht plane you are flying, but the chanses of a successful landing is only theoretical. The stability of the plane and the rudder can help u fly a plane w/o ailerons and its possible, yet unlikley, that u will land safely.
I have seen one case of aileron loss irl and it went as u could expect. (May he rest in peace. :salute ).
U can fly w/o rudder, landing could be more of a challenge but as long as u avoid crosswind it is possible to do.
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I had a good CFI. He made me land without using the elevator on more than one occasion so it is certainly possible. Same with flight without ailerons. The issue would be a jammed control surface if the alternate methods were not able to counter the jammed control.
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What is the normal order of rotation when using these as classic Euler angles.
HiTech
I always thought it was alpha beta gamma about the z, N ( or x' ), then Z... But this is counterintuitive to me and stretches my memory.
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I had a good CFI. He made me land without using the elevator on more than one occasion so it is certainly possible. Same with flight without ailerons. The issue would be a jammed control surface if the alternate methods were not able to counter the jammed control.
True, there is a big difference btw just lost of control if the control surfaces could be affected by the trim, In those cases it is def. possible to make a safe landning, and jammed or lost control surfaces. In AH it is all about loss of the control surface itself and that is a much more serious situation than just a snapped wire or something like that.
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True, there is a big difference btw just lost of control if the control surfaces could be affected by the trim, In those cases it is def. possible to make a safe landning, and jammed or lost control surfaces. In AH it is all about loss of the control surface itself and that is a much more serious situation than just a snapped wire or something like that.
:airplane: To put a point on this thread, you can lose all your controls at one time and if you have multiple engines, you can control the aircraft to some degree. Remember the DC10 at Sue City, Iowa? It had no controls of any kind, but crew managed to get it down on an airport and yes, a lot of people died, but a lot of people lived to, including the crew. If they had rudder, then would have been able to keep it on runway and then they might have all lived! But, they didn't and aircraft touched down beside runway, cartwheeled and crashed.
If I have a choice, give me the rudder every time, as directional control is very important when landing!
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I claim that u are very wrong at that point. Flight 232 had not done anything better w rudder control. They hit the ground with a high speed and high level of decent because they where unable to slow down or flare the plane. On final they had 240kn of airspeed and a sink rate of 1850 fps. Do u really thing that a rudder would have saved them? Ok, it havent made it worse but i bet the pilots would have trade that rudder for the elevators.
Edit: the fact that so many survived after all was primary due to a number of lucky circumstances, that the National Guard where on scene for an excercise for example.
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Flight 232 had not done anything better w rudder control. They hit the ground with a high speed and high level of decent because they where unable to slow down or flare the plane. On final they had 240kn of airspeed and a sink rate of 1850 fps. Do u really thing that a rudder would have saved them? Ok, it havent made it worse but i bet the pilots would have trade that rudder for the elevators.
Having rudder would have been very helpful. They were using differential power for yaw control so they couldn't use all power to slow sink rate. They cartwheeled because they hit a wing on landing, with rudder they might have been able to keep wings level.
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I claim that u are very wrong at that point. Flight 232 had not done anything better w rudder control. They hit the ground with a high speed and high level of decent because they where unable to slow down or flare the plane. On final they had 240kn of airspeed and a sink rate of 1850 fps. Do u really thing that a rudder would have saved them? Ok, it havent made it worse but i bet the pilots would have trade that rudder for the elevators.
Edit: the fact that so many survived after all was primary due to a number of lucky circumstances, that the National Guard where on scene for an excercise for example.
:airplane: You have made some points, but I would point out that they were not able to aligned themselves with the runway, hence they touched down on grass beside runway, gear dug in and then wingtip. Had they been able too touch down on pavement, I think they would have had a much better chance of survival because the gear was down and locked and they might have had directional control through the nose wheel steering. Not sure if it, on the DC10 is hydraulic, or electric, but at any rate, I doubt if they would have cartwheeled, which is what caused most of the deaths. If you review the video of the crash, you will see that they were in a level attitude prior to touchdown which would have also enhanced their chances, if they could have touched down on the runway.
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Good doc on the DHL flight that landed successfully with no hydraulics and thus no working controls except engines.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18udw1_mayday-s03e02-attack-over-baghdad_shortfilms
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:airplane: You have made some points, but I would point out that they were not able to aligned themselves with the runway, hence they touched down on grass beside runway, gear dug in and then wingtip. Had they been able too touch down on pavement, I think they would have had a much better chance of survival because the gear was down and locked and they might have had directional control through the nose wheel steering. Not sure if it, on the DC10 is hydraulic, or electric, but at any rate, I doubt if they would have cartwheeled, which is what caused most of the deaths. If you review the video of the crash, you will see that they were in a level attitude prior to touchdown which would have also enhanced their chances, if they could have touched down on the runway.
But still. With 240kn and 1800 fpm sink rate u dont land, that was a semi-controlled crash. and even u have to admit that the elevators had done more to the crew than the rudder. Elevator control had given them the opportunity to land at a much lower speed and at a lower sink rate.
As i said earlier, rudder control would not have make anything worse but the elevators would have been far more helpful.
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But still. With 240kn and 1800 fpm sink rate u dont land, that was a semi-controlled crash. and even u have to admit that the elevators had done more to the crew than the rudder. Elevator control had given them the opportunity to land at a much lower speed and at a lower sink rate.
As i said earlier, rudder control would not have make anything worse but the elevators would have been far more helpful.
I tend to agree. With differential thrust available for yaw control, elevators to control pitch would have made a huge difference.