Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BnZs on June 09, 2014, 09:37:40 AM
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Not surprisingly, the P-51D had the most kills with 13,903. What does surprise me a bit is the 190-D9(6672), La7 (6663), and P-47M (4287). Similar role planes, each one superior to the PonyD in several respects, yet far less usage.
Second in sheer number of kills was the SpitfireXVI, with 7050. The two other important spits in the MA, the VIII and the IX added 2241 and 2204 kills respectively, bringing the total for the 3 significant Spits up to 11,495. The XVI had the highest k/d, at 1.21, followed by the IX at 1.07. The VIII lagged at third with .98. I guess roll rate really is important.
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The other big winners in fighters with over 5000 kills each appear to have been the F4U1A, F6F, and N1K.
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dora has no flaps, bad ballistics and views
P47M is nice, but no ordonance and kindof naked when the WAP runs out
La7 has no ord, and no legs.
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P51 can carry good amount ords, making it the best thing for multi role base taker types.
Not to mention it's more user friendly than 190D and La7.
P47M is a high alt specialist, there's not much to kill up there.
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there's not much to kill up there.
True, but there are things "up there" that will kill you
:devil
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1 Zoney in per 500 square miles. :lol
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1 Zoney in per 500 square miles. :lol
:x :banana:
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It's the plane that won the war!
Peeps don't fly just the planes that are the best for the job. They fly what they like. Most players are Americans...
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It's the plane that won the war!
Peeps don't fly just the planes that are the best for the job. They fly what they like. Most players are Americans...
Correct, the market isn't entirely rational.
P47M is a high alt specialist, there's not much to kill up there.
It is as fast on the P-51D on the deck, out-turns it, out-climbs it, out-rolls it, has superior firepower, and withstands damage better.
The D9 does literally everything better than the P-51D at typical MA alts except turn.
The market is not entirely rational.
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nt
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Correct, the market isn't entirely rational.
It is as fast on the P-51D on the deck, out-turns it, out-climbs it, out-rolls it, has superior firepower, and withstands damage better.
The D9 does literally everything better than the P-51D at typical MA alts except turn.
The market is not entirely rational.
51 also has great visibility, very accurate guns, and high speed flaps that can be used to out-turn a Dora pretty badly. From my experience, Dora's don't stand much of a chance 1v1. A P-47M is a much harder opponent in my opinion.
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You're forgetting the Ordinance factor. Most of AcesHigh's player base is involved in base taking missions. P51D is the best non perked fighter bomber around.
The P51 can not only take out ord bunkers hit VH or town etc, but also switch after doing that to field suppression and escort duty.
P47M can only fight and the 190D can only drop less than half the ords of the 51D, plus the P51 has fuel range advantage over the Dora.
The pros in the P51 outstrip the others in the MA environment.
The Market's intelligence shouldn't be mocked off hand.
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51 also has great visibility, very accurate guns, and high speed flaps that can be used to out-turn a Dora pretty badly. From my experience, Dora's don't stand much of a chance 1v1.
P-51s don't stand much chance 1v1 vrs a Spit16 or La7, yet Ponies get twice the usage of either...
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The Market's intelligence shouldn't be mocked off hand.
I dunno, if the market is that obsessed with moving cartoon mud maybe we should go ahead and mock. :lol
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But there aircraft choice is sound.
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P-51s don't stand much chance 1v1 vrs a Spit16 or La7, yet get twice the usage...
Only if you get jumped really. Above about 7k you outrun an La-7, and you can get away from a Spit16 without too much trouble. Simply reset the fight on your terms and there's not much they can do. The La7 is tougher because it will track you down on the deck, but once again you can use the high-speed flaps to force an overshoot on most pretty easily. Some of the best pilots in an La-7 can track you down and kill you, but I would chalk that up to SA more than anything. If you do get forced into that situation, the 51 can still put up a helluva fight and he'll have to really know his stuff if he wants to kill you.
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Only if you get jumped really. Above about 7k you outrun an La-7, and you can get away from a Spit16 without too much trouble. Simply reset the fight on your terms and there's not much they can do. The La7 is tougher because it will track you down on the deck, but once again you can use the high-speed flaps to force an overshoot on most pretty easily. Some of the best pilots in an La-7 can track you down and kill you, but I would chalk that up to SA more than anything. If you do get forced into that situation, the 51 can still put up a helluva fight and he'll have to really know his stuff if he wants to kill you.
Well yes, but my point was the D9 disengages at will from most things even easier because of it's high power/weight ratio.
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The D-9 is a very challenging aircraft to use. It can roll very well, climb very well, accelerate very well, zoom climb very well, maintains E very well, the guns are good (bad ballistics???), and the views are well enough (though not as giving as others). I think the only plane that turns worst (sustained) is the 190A/F-8. Take away its speed and it is much easier to deal with.
Take speed away from the La7 and P51x, and they both can still dance.
The Spitfire Mk XVI is by far the most agile plane in the game, and it is fast too. Its worst attribute is its longevity in the fight thanks to limited ammo. That mostly comes in to play vs bombers though.
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I didn't get the "bad ballistics" handle on the D9 either - although it'd certainly apply to the K-4. Otherwise, that latter has excellent speed once you get some alts and reasonable turn rates that can be used against other fast birds, if not against turny birds. The climb is, of course, excellent.
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P-51s don't stand much chance 1v1 vrs a Spit16 or La7, yet Ponies get twice the usage of either...
... and the Pony has a overall K/D of 1.25 vs the Spit 16 this year so far.
The Pony is a truly great, easy to fly plane and well balanced for general MA usage. In a classic 'duel' the Spit 16 holds the cards for sure, but it's in the Pony pilot's hands to not let it come to that.
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People keep saying the P-51D is the best fighter-bomber in the game. It is not. The P-38L carries more and gets it to the target faster. The P-47D-40/P-47N carry even more, but do take longer to get to the target. The Typhoon and Mosquito carry almost as much and get to the target much faster.
For my money, the P-38L is the best fighterbomber in AH.
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... and the Pony has a overall K/D of 1.25 vs the Spit 16 this year so far.
The Pony is a truly great, easy to fly plane and well balanced for general MA usage. In a classic 'duel' the Spit 16 holds the cards for sure, but it's in the Pony pilot's hands to not let it come to that.
TJ specified 1v1 when he compared the D9 and P-51 though.
BTW, 1.25? That is actually doing incredibly well versus the P-51 considering the Pony is so 30+mph faster and probably vulches a ton of Spixteens.
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People keep saying the P-51D is the best fighter-bomber in the game. It is not. The P-38L carries more and gets it to the target faster.
And this is probably why 26% of the P-38L's kills are vehicles, while it's only about 8% for the P-51D :old:
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And this is probably why 26% of the P-38L's kills are vehicles, while it's only about 8% for the P-51D :old:
Not too many seem to take the time to learn to fight the P-51 air to ground from what I've seen. It's by far my favorite plane in the game.
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Not too many seem to take the time to learn to fight the P-51 air to ground from what I've seen. It's by far my favorite plane in the game.
Bombing tanks in a P-51D that much different from a P-38 or P-47? :headscratch:
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I'm confused by the words "air-to-ground" and "fight" occurring in the same sentence. :headscratch:
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Mossie should be one of the favorites for fighter-bomber missions.
Bozon fly away from my A8 with 2 bombs in his cargo-bay, 4*20mm Hispano and 4000 small caliber rounds on top of that.
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Mossie should be one of the favorites for fighter-bomber missions.
Bozon fly away from my A8 with 2 bombs in his cargo-bay, 4*20mm Hispano and 4000 small caliber rounds on top of that.
and? Mossies are awesome! twice a Spitfire! Wooden Wonder!
Looking at the graphs Mosssie without WEP 9k is most advantage 5k with WEP. I guess the twin engines give it that little extra oomph when those heights are usually pretty decent for the A8.
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People keep saying the P-51D is the best fighter-bomber in the game. It is not. The P-38L carries more and gets it to the target faster. The P-47D-40/P-47N carry even more, but do take longer to get to the target. The Typhoon and Mosquito carry almost as much and get to the target much faster.
For my money, the P-38L is the best fighterbomber in AH.
Depends on the mission really. If the goal is to level a single target, the Mossi lags behind in the high speed dive category to be able to drop all 4 bombs, or 2 bombs/8 rockets, and use a few hundred pounds worth of cannon damage as compared to a P47, P38, or P51 with dual 1k bombs and rockets. The Mossi is better a hammering a town than a P51 thanks to the 4 bombs and cannon (and dont forget the mountains of .30 cal ammo either!). Either way, it can bring the pain faster. :aok But... it does lack the capability to be a pure fighter once the ords are gone, it is simply too lumbering to contend with the automatic La7 that is going to pop up.
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Not surprisingly, the P-51D had the most kills with 13,903. What does surprise me a bit is the 190-D9(6672), La7 (6663), and P-47M (4287). Similar role planes, each one superior to the PonyD in several respects, yet far less usage.
Second in sheer number of kills was the SpitfireXVI, with 7050. The two other important spits in the MA, the VIII and the IX added 2241 and 2204 kills respectively, bringing the total for the 3 significant Spits up to 11,495. The XVI had the highest k/d, at 1.21, followed by the IX at 1.07. The VIII lagged at third with .98. I guess roll rate really is important.
Mosquito VIs had 1936 kills and 1.26 K/D. not bad.
Except that just 3 players account for 30% of those kills... :)
<S> NikonGuy and Razor
Honorable mention to Skully7 :salute
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dora has no flaps, bad ballistics and views
Im pretty sure that at slow speeds the Dora handles better than the pony. Medium and high speeds, the pony wins though.
Ballistics... meh... still fairly good and 500 rounds from the 20mm is enough for anything.
Views are awesome on the Dora.
Where it really suffers against the pony is the combat radius and flying time. Chopping the throttle wont help too much either as it does on the La7.
One more note: my favourite matchup was a Dora against a well-flown, agressive pony. Just wonderful how evenly they are matched.
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Views are awesome on the Dora.
Generally yes, but the frames on the forward cockpit seem PERFECTLY designed to be in the way just as you are ready to squeeze the trigger on a crossing deflection shot. :bhead
One more note: my favourite matchup was a Dora against a well-flown, agressive pony. Just wonderful how evenly they are matched.
Yes, it is quite fun getting these two planes slow against each other. The fight WILL be ended by a Spit or the like coming in and killing one of you now that you are both slow of course. :devil
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The fight WILL be ended by a Spit or the like coming in and killing one of you now that you are both slow of course. :devil
that bugger :uhoh :D
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Generally yes, but the frames on the forward cockpit seem PERFECTLY designed to be in the way just as you are ready to squeeze the trigger on a crossing deflection shot. :bhead
Yes, it is quite fun getting these two planes slow against each other. The fight WILL be ended by a Spit or the like coming in and killing one of you now that you are both slow of course. :devil
THat's like Dr. Death last night - twice: First was a matchup b/w me in the XVI and a K-4. MAge fought bravely but it was fairly easy to just do a brainless high-g lead pursuit on him. Of course, I was fixated and Dr. Death finished me shortly after Mage died. The next one was with a Ki that put up a more extended fight. I oiled him but couldn't quite get the kill before Dr. D showed up.
Regardless, the XVI is the brainless man's fighter. You've got to do something stupid/careless, be grossly outnumbered, or have your X-52 come unplugged (happened last night twice) to die in it. It kind of suffers for this - it's less intriguing/challenging. I want to fly JUNK.
Besides, I still do dumb things all the time, given that death is riskless here.
Anyway, let me reiterate, just to be provocative: Spit XVI = da shif'less man's way to make a bazillion kills...
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Anyway, let me reiterate, just to be provocative: Spit XVI = da shif'less man's way to make a bazillion kills...
From what I understand, the Spit XVI was a fantastic pure dogfighter in WWII...one of the best of the war.
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Anyway, let me reiterate, just to be provocative: Spit XVI = da shif'less man's way to make a bazillion kills...
It has it's failings but few of them are in the dogfight itself.
I think the Spixteen tends to make a large number of other fighters which might otherwise be flown semi-hangar queens, (The "junk" you speak of) since it is as fast or faster than so many things while out-turning them as well, with class of the field guns, roll, and acceleration. In the MA it is important to either be very fast or very maneuverable to deal with the 2nd most popular plane, leaving many planes that are in the middle on the speed/turning ability spectrum out in the cold. Of course, this is counterbalanced to an extent by the fact that Aces High has a semi-taboo against the best pilots flying the SpitXVI a lot.
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Not surprisingly, the P-51D had the most kills with 13,903. What does surprise me a bit is the 190-D9(6672), La7 (6663), and P-47M (4287). Similar role planes, each one superior to the PonyD in several respects, yet far less usage.
Second in sheer number of kills was the SpitfireXVI, with 7050. The two other important spits in the MA, the VIII and the IX added 2241 and 2204 kills respectively, bringing the total for the 3 significant Spits up to 11,495. The XVI had the highest k/d, at 1.21, followed by the IX at 1.07. The VIII lagged at third with .98. I guess roll rate really is important.
The IX has a high KD because it comes in pink. Right Pepprr?
I really like the 47M, it's my main 51 chaser. When it meets a 51 co alt/E it runs... By the time it returns, I am gone... Once slow, the 190 is poopy.
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I dont fly the 16 cause it has no challenge to it. Not that Im a top gun but the freaking thing does everything either well or great. IMO it deserves a perk even more then the La-La. 2 Hispanos and 2 0.50s are a premium ATA package. The thing climbs like a monkey, rolls and dives well, turns well, accelerates tremendously. Ive always been embarrassed after getting killed while in a spitxteen cause I know it was my fault for doing so. Mostly it happens when I put myself in a bad position against a superior pilot.
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I dont fly the 16 cause it has no challenge to it. Not that Im a top gun but the freaking thing does everything either well or great. IMO it deserves a perk even more then the La-La. 2 Hispanos and 2 0.50s are a premium ATA package. The thing climbs like a monkey, rolls and dives well, turns well, accelerates tremendously. Ive always been embarrassed after getting killed while in a spitxteen cause I know it was my fault for doing so. Mostly it happens when I put myself in a bad position against a superior pilot.
Exactly. I'm not the greatest stick in the game but, in a Spix, it's fairly east to outduel a high-ranking K-4 stick or bring a skilled KI driver to his knees. Even on takeoff, you've got vulch-proof evasives once you're off the concrete. The thing is just uber. I was holding edge of stall easily in it. The VIII and IX are more challenging - but, imj, the VIII can make evil reversals because of its wingloading.
I'd support perking it. It's like a bunghole or bellybutton - everybody's got one, seems like.
All that said, I ruined a pair of Spix's day - they were both newbs but I must've PW'ed the first guy because he took off and showed as kille dlater. The first guy was already smoking when I found him - and he fought, and died. But that was Spix on Spix ultraviolence. - and sweet ultraviolence it was.
Perk it. In fact, perk most of the late war crap. Let's get people to rediscover the art.
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In fact, perk most of the late war crap. Let's get people to rediscover the art.
I was going to give this a thumbs up, but then I thought "in the Late War Arena?"
I tried to fly a P-40 and a Wildcat exclusively in the LWA for a month last year and it was a joke. Too bad there are not more people in the mid and early war arenas. The LWA is all about the uber planes which I think include the Spit XVI, Pony, K4, Ki-84, La-7, Dora and company, not just the hated 16 and Pony.
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It's the plane that won the war!
Peeps don't fly just the planes that are the best for the job. They fly what they like.
What's irrational about that?
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Bombing tanks in a P-51D that much different from a P-38 or P-47? :headscratch:
Yes. The P-51 suffers worse than most from dropping one bomb and having an unbalanced load. In a P-47 or especially an F6F or F4U (both of which carry the bombs inboard of the gear, unlike the pony) I hardly notice the difference, in the P-51 it's enough to affect my aim on the second bomb run. That's really only important for killing GVs because with anything else you're most likely going to line up to drop both bombs on the same run. I almost never fly 38s but I imagine they'd be more stable than any of the single-engine planes with an unbalanced load.
The P-51 and 109K4 seem to be the planes of choice for picking from nosebleed alt. That plus the fact that the K4 is a much tougher plane to fly probably account for a lot of the pony's popularity and success for air-to-air combat. People aren't taking risks in them.
I'm sure that the stigma attached to the Spit XVI is a major factor in both its lesser popularity and its lower-than-expected k/d rate. Because of the stigma more experienced pilots leave it to newbies who are doomed regardless of what they're flying.
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I'm glad the spitfire 16 is easy to fly, as is the 51. Both offer new pilots planes that fit nicely into the bnz and turn roll. To those that continue to fly them after being new, its there 15 bucks and if that's what they enjoy all the power to them.
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I'm glad the spitfire 16 is easy to fly, as is the 51. Both offer new pilots planes that fit nicely into the bnz and turn roll. To those that continue to fly them after being new, its there 15 bucks and if that's what they enjoy all the power to them.
The P-51 IS easy to fly. You can take off, cruise about, and land in it very easily. Of course, that is true of most planes in AHII.
But when it comes to DOGFIGHTING anything actually aware of your presence, the P-51 and the SpitXVI are light-years apart in how simple they are to kill with, as PJ has been pointing out.
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The P-51 and 109K4 seem to be the planes of choice for picking from nosebleed alt. That plus the fact that the K4 is a much tougher plane to fly probably account for a lot of the pony's popularity and success for air-to-air combat.
I've always found the K4 easier to fly and fight in than the P-51, and have always had a better K/D ratio in the K4. The P-51 doesn't have the acceleration, rate of climb, or the drop dead firepower that the K4 has, so I think ease of use depends on the pilot. I would put a newb in a K4 before a Pony if choosing between the two.
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The pony is easy to fly but hard to fly well, especially since it has no tricks in the bag like the 109s/190s.
The spit... well you can enter a 3v1, do literally everything wrong and still come out as a winner... thats the spit16.
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I've always found the K4 easier to fly and fight in than the P-51, and have always had a better K/D ratio in the K4. The P-51 doesn't have the acceleration, rate of climb, or the drop dead firepower that the K4 has, so I think ease of use depends on the pilot. I would put a newb in a K4 before a Pony if choosing between the two.
A 109 has a very busy cockpit especially the K4, unless of course your just buzzing around at full throttle and not turning very often. Personally when I am up in a K4 once I engage a con I am making constant changes to either flaps, trim, or throttle.
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I've always found the K4 easier to fly and fight in than the P-51, and have always had a better K/D ratio in the K4. The P-51 doesn't have the acceleration, rate of climb, or the drop dead firepower that the K4 has, so I think ease of use depends on the pilot. I would put a newb in a K4 before a Pony if choosing between the two.
that noob in a K4 would never get a kill.....
while the 51 would most definitely.
most likely the K4 noob is gonna Auger....and will take many many sorties to get to know the 30mm....
overcome the Giant canopy bars...
the insane torq is a PITA to a noob
while the 51 noob hits 550 plus and still has control....
out climbs everything at that speed....
has plenty of ammo and if he has even a minor bit of Aim he will land hits.
now take vets.... vets that actually fight....yes the K4 is the more dangerous plane.
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that noob in a K4 would never get a kill.....
while the 51 noob hits 550 plus and still has control....
out climbs everything at that speed....
Would you mind showing your work (the physics) on that "outclimbs everything" at 550 bit? I personally think a Corsair or a Jug going 550mph would keep pace with a zooming Mustang doing that same speed just fine, and that this claim of yours needs to be filed in the same place as "The Pony out-turns everything at high speed". Which turned out to be physically impossible, what with the virtual pilots always subject to the same G-limit.
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I've flown them both in the past. The gun packages on the Pony and Kurt have exactly the opposite strengths and weaknesses. The Pony is good for getting some hits at long range and high deflections, yet you may often find yourself landing hits to little effect, especially on short range crossing snapshots or shooting with a very high closure rate. The tater gun will never serve as a sniper weapon, yet if one learns to follow the "damn near ram" philosophy of shooting, it is satisfying overkill that won't let yo down at close range. (The La7 gun package seems to basically split the difference)
Neither is a good noob's plane, the P-51D simply doesn't have any attributes, especially turning ability, that will compensate for offensive/defensive mistakes except the ability dive away. Not very inspiring. The K4 can do much more (including running even faster) but the tater gun is simply a handicap for noobs.
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Neither is a good noob's plane, the P-51D simply doesn't have any attributes, especially turning ability, that will compensate for offensive/defensive mistakes except the ability dive away. Not very inspiring. The K4 can do much more (including running even faster) but the tater gun is simply a handicap for noobs.
There is a stage in a noobs development that both planes can fit. This is usually the second stage after "just getting the basic flying" nailed down (Spits, Zekes, etc for that part). At this point the noob wants to be able to see combat but survive. If he actually kills something is just a bonus. At this stage players tend to be attracted to fast planes with decent visibility that allow them to disengage and run away from a fight they are about to lose (i.e. any fight with an enemy that sees them coming, plane matchup irrelevant). Flying a turny plane will allow them to survive the "oh-@$#%" moments a bit longer, but no turning ability will save a noob.
The P-51 gives them the speed and the dive ability to run away. It is also a decent JABO which gives them some sense of being useful even though they can't really fight yet. The 109K will allow them to come higher than anyone else in visibility range and offer great acceleration for escaping, but will have a problem with diving escapes. The visibility is also not as good as in the pony and the tater is a clear vice for them (low ammo, low accuracy, difficult aim) - with the 0.5s they can get assists and the occasional kill even if another greenie finish it for them. It is this ability to run away that can give them the confidence to try and engage with some hope of surviving. A slow turny plane meas total commitment once engaged, and so makes them more timid in approaching/choosing the fights. La7 of course can fill the same need with even more escapability, but other vices.
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that noob in a K4 would never get a kill.....
while the 51 would most definitely.
I still think it depends on the noob. I went back to make sure my memory was still working and in my 4th month in AH my noob numbers were:
Pony: Kills 7 Deaths 34
K4: Kills 11 Deaths 11
the next month I stopped flying the Pony and went 24/29 in the K4.
I found the Pony hugely more difficult than the K4 as a noob. All it takes is one or two taters from a K4 for a kill. With the Pony I got a million assists.
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There is a stage in a noobs development that both planes can fit. This is usually the second stage after "just getting the basic flying" nailed down (Spits, Zekes, etc for that part). At this point the noob wants to be able to see combat but survive. If he actually kills something is just a bonus. At this stage players tend to be attracted to fast planes with decent visibility that allow them to disengage and run away from a fight they are about to lose (i.e. any fight with an enemy that sees them coming, plane matchup irrelevant). Flying a turny plane will allow them to survive the "oh-@$#%" moments a bit longer, but no turning ability will save a noob.
The P-51 gives them the speed and the dive ability to run away. It is also a decent JABO which gives them some sense of being useful even though they can't really fight yet. The 109K will allow them to come higher than anyone else in visibility range and offer great acceleration for escaping, but will have a problem with diving escapes. The visibility is also not as good as in the pony and the tater is a clear vice for them (low ammo, low accuracy, difficult aim) - with the 0.5s they can get assists and the occasional kill even if another greenie finish it for them. It is this ability to run away that can give them the confidence to try and engage with some hope of surviving. A slow turny plane meas total commitment once engaged, and so makes them more timid in approaching/choosing the fights. La7 of course can fill the same need with even more escapability, but other vices.
This is really well stated, Bozon. But I found it much easier to fly up their tailpipe in a K4 and put a tater in them than the marksmanship that it took in the Pony which came much later (heck, I'm still working on that...lol).
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Would you mind showing your work (the physics) on that "outclimbs everything" at 550 bit? I personally think a Corsair or a Jug going 550mph would keep pace with a zooming Mustang doing that same speed just fine, and that this claim of yours needs to be filed in the same place as "The Pony out-turns everything at high speed". Which turned out to be physically impossible, what with the virtual pilots always subject to the same G-limit.
My own claim here: engine off, props feathered, they will be damn close, especially if in a similar drag configuration w/r control surfaces. Why? Because they're basically just ballistic at this point and, given that the cd for the two contemporary birds of similar class and purpose is likely similar, the drag effects will offset.
Now, engine on, otoh, they're both "thrusting" ballistics - which is kind of like a jumbo shrimp. F=sigma(ma) will govern and T-D will be critical - and I'd suspect the Pony will be a little better but, at that speed, isn't freestream actually tending to overspeed the prop (and thus the spinning prop is just another drag contributor)?
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This is really well stated, Bozon. But I found it much easier to fly up their tailpipe in a K4 and put a tater in them than the marksmanship that it took in the Pony which came much later (heck, I'm still working on that...lol).
I augered every 109 I flew as a noob. I still do occasionally as an expereinced noob. Must remember the trim... Actually, nowadays, it's always because I want to cut it close. If you're screaming down at 525 and tracking a turning spit, it's entirely possible to overshoot your point of no return on the pullout. It's just embarassing, and I did it a lot. Even so, I always preferred the 109 to the Pony.
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My own claim here: engine off, props feathered, they will be damn close, especially if in a similar drag configuration w/r control surfaces. Why? Because they're basically just ballistic at this point and, given that the cd for the two contemporary birds of similar class and purpose is likely similar, the drag effects will offset.
Now, engine on, otoh, they're both "thrusting" ballistics - which is kind of like a jumbo shrimp. F=sigma(ma) will govern and T-D will be critical - and I'd suspect the Pony will be a little better but, at that speed, isn't freestream actually tending to overspeed the prop (and thus the spinning prop is just another drag contributor)?
I once did a zoom climb test on multiple AH planes for my own knowledge. The procedure was 1. Dive to sea level and above 400mph, full WEP. 2. Just as the speed bled down to 400, pull up at 4G until straight vertical, 3. Hold until the plane becomes uncontrollable. All the single engine aircraft I tested did basically the same, six thousand some odd feet in every case.The P-38 did a little better, getting over 7000, because it can hold nose up a little longer 'cause it doesn't fight torque.
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Would you mind showing your work (the physics) on that "outclimbs everything" at 550 bit? I personally think a Corsair or a Jug going 550mph would keep pace with a zooming Mustang doing that same speed just fine, and that this claim of yours needs to be filed in the same place as "The Pony out-turns everything at high speed". Which turned out to be physically impossible, what with the virtual pilots always subject to the same G-limit.
once again you show you do not actually read what you are reading.
or it could be I am just not good with words....
when you are doing 550 in a 51....you wont see any others doing that...more then likely you are the fastest around....and no other planes are gonna be able to climb with you....
obviously if you and another guy are doing the same speed they will...
but that is very rarely the case and not what I was talking about.
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I still think it depends on the noob. I went back to make sure my memory was still working and in my 4th month in AH my noob numbers were:
Pony: Kills 7 Deaths 34
K4: Kills 11 Deaths 11
the next month I stopped flying the Pony and went 24/29 in the K4.
I found the Pony hugely more difficult than the K4 as a noob. All it takes is one or two taters from a K4 for a kill. With the Pony I got a million assists.
some people are better shots....and if you can land with the tater then ya the K4 is a monster....
most though it takes a long time to get used to that gun.(or some good training at the onset of your AH career)
the 51 is a far more stable plane for staying alive, and getting kills to the average guy.
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See Rule #4
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The pony is easy to fly but hard to fly well, especially since it has no tricks in the bag like the 109s/190s.
The spit... well you can enter a 3v1, do literally everything wrong and still come out as a winner... thats the spit16.
What are the 190s tricks in the bag that the Pony doesn't have? I've always thought the two planes were in basically the same boat for the most part.
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See Rule #4
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What are the 190s tricks in the bag that the Pony doesn't have? I've always thought the two planes were in basically the same boat for the most part.
I was wondering that myself. I mean, we know that the 109 can do some impressive nose standing but, with the 190 the only thing I think of as "special" is the vomit-inducing roll rate. That's great for a violent evasive but the high wing-loading (shared by the Pony - almost) means that a rolling scissor, which, last time I got involved in one didn't demand anything like max roll rate but was rather more gentle, is going to be a helix that arcs downward pretty quickly.
I got into one with a Jug once. He and I remained fixed in each other's view, eerily, at least until he hit the ground. I had pulled out myself just before that. I'm thikning mister spitty can out-scissor the rolling Dora for the same reason it can out-turn it.
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scissoring in front of an A8 without pulling up hard at the same time is bad karma for most planes if the 190a8 have speed.
A snapshot kills easy up to 400 yards if he has 4*20mm.
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See Rule #4
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All this talk about K4's and Pony D's..... makes me appreciate my Yak 9T. The best of both. :)
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See Rule #4
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That a plane at the same speed can zoom with you is a truism one would hardly think needs stating. Your wording made that very unclear, in fact it made it sounded almost EXACTLY like you were claiming the Mustang would outzoom anything else starting from those speeds. There are numerous planes that can and do dive with a Mustang fairly easily just by opening the throttle and unloading-Corsairs, Hellcats, Jugs, 190s, etc.
At typical MA alts, Spitfires and 109s can easily dive with a pony, as can the C205.
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What are the 190s tricks in the bag that the Pony doesn't have? I've always thought the two planes were in basically the same boat for the most part.
At slow speeds, the pony is a complete dog, out of airfoil its just helpless. For "over-pulling" the stick, it wont benefit anything while the 190 is able to do some limited tailwhip moves - true, not as fine as a 109. The pony will never be able to pull a perfect hammerhead at 40mph as smooth and controlled as a 190, possibly because it has pratically no torque to play with. Since i have never ever faced a pony stick who could clearly beat the 190 in a very low speed fight, looks like its a logical consequence that the 190 is better than the pony under 140-150mph.
Above that, the pony wins easily.
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At slow speeds, the pony is a complete dog, out of airfoil its just helpless. For "over-pulling" the stick, it wont benefit anything while the 190 is able to do some limited tailwhip moves - true, not as fine as a 109. The pony will never be able to pull a perfect hammerhead at 40mph as smooth and controlled as a 190, possibly because it has pratically no torque to play with. Since i have never ever faced a pony stick who could clearly beat the 190 in a very low speed fight, looks like its a logical consequence that the 190 is better than the pony under 140-150mph.
Above that, the pony wins easily.
Interesting :banana:
One would *think* the P-51D should hammerhead well since it seems just a bit unstable in yaw, ball goes over to the left every time one puts on the Gs. Maybe not enough rudder authority?
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The P51 rudder is very lacking
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Neat and clean hammerheads don't usually happen in a 51, as the torque will pull you out of phase very easily and the rudder is pretty weak. However, it does have some nasty moves up its sleeves. If you've ever seen the Dogfights episode with the 51, and know the maneuver Don Bryan was able to pull off on a trailing 109, that move is possible in AH and can be a mean surprise for a trailing con when you decelerate so quickly.
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For air to ground, especially against armor, I prefer the F6F-5. It can go from air to ground to air to air quick enough. Since much of my flying is defensive (my preference, in general), being able to handle fighters while down on the deck is important to me. And, the F6F-5 can tackle enemy fighters quite well.
Two 1,000 lb bombs, and six 5" rockets if you want (I usually don't bother). It carries the same ordnance load as the P-51D. It also has more MG ammo than the Mustang. Unlike the Mustang, It doesn't have to avoid turning fights with Spitfires, Nikis and Ki-84s. Flying below 3k much of the time, I often have to deal with 190s, P-51s, P-38s and Jugs that have both speed and altitude on me. I rarely lose a Hellcat to fighters. Even fighting from a disadvantage. It's an adequate ride for intercepting bomber raids. Outstanding for killing porkers (no prop fighter can dive away from the Hellcat). It's a jack of all trades fighter.
I haven't had the time to fly yet in the current tour, but last tour I flew the F6F quite a bit. It's rugged, agile and very lethal. Fly it smart, and you can run up good scores.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10257374_10203786729054062_2730916408291190685_o.jpg)
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What are the 190s tricks in the bag that the Pony doesn't have? I've always thought the two planes were in basically the same boat for the most part.
I was wondering that myself. I mean, we know that the 109 can do some impressive nose standing but, with the 190 the only thing I think of as "special" is the vomit-inducing roll rate. That's great for a violent evasive but the high wing-loading (shared by the Pony - almost) means that a rolling scissor, which, last time I got involved in one didn't demand anything like max roll rate but was rather more gentle, is going to be a helix that arcs downward pretty quickly.
I got into one with a Jug once. He and I remained fixed in each other's view, eerily, at least until he hit the ground. I had pulled out myself just before that. I'm thikning mister spitty can out-scissor the rolling Dora for the same reason it can out-turn it.
The 190D and 51D share a "D", speed and have similar roll rate. However the 190D accelerates much faster and climbs like a rocket. If a 109 and a 51 had a baby it would be the 190D. So the 190D can do a lot more in the vertical, like 109s... AND change direction quicly and dive like a 51.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=44&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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If a 109 and a 51 had a baby it would be the 190D.
Ki61 :old:
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Ki61 :old:
No, that's a 109 and a Zeke... ;)