Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Someguy63 on June 11, 2014, 10:48:14 AM
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I've heard that having auto combat trim enabled during a fight, can end up mis-positioning you, and can also mess up a shot that you have during that fight.
I've seen people mention that they have it off when in a fight, and I'm wondering what exactly this auto combat trim does and why people suggest turning it off while fighting? :headscratch:
:salute
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Combat trim sets your trims to keep you fairly close to in trim depending on the speed of your aircraft. It assumes a clean airframe, no flaps or gear out, 100% throttle. Varying any of those things will mean you will be further from trim.
I keep combat trim on most of the time when I'm cruising or BnZing. When I remember to, I turn it off if I start getting into a turnfight, particularly if I've deployed flaps. Having combat trim on with full flaps gives you a lot of nose high trim. My basic rule of thumb is to turn it off when I drop below 180-200mph.
Wiley.
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Combat trim sets your trims to keep you fairly close to in trim depending on the speed of your aircraft. It assumes a clean airframe, no flaps or gear out, 100% throttle. Varying any of those things will mean you will be further from trim.
I keep combat trim on most of the time when I'm cruising or BnZing. When I remember to, I turn it off if I start getting into a turnfight, particularly if I've deployed flaps. Having combat trim on with full flaps gives you a lot of nose high trim. My basic rule of thumb is to turn it off when I drop below 180-200mph.
Wiley.
I've got it, thanks! :aok
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This is a topic I am interested in as in my whole aces high career I have never turned combat trim off.
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Manual trim takes a bit of getting use too. You have to find your trim set buttons or slider pretty quick sometimes if you get caught slow and need to pickup speed. Sometimes I think combat trim has a bit of a damping effect. Landing is sure easier with manual.
Delirium made note in his P-38 training class that in his opinion combat trim offered a more stable gun platform.
Bozon and I spoke of combat trim in a dive bomb attack. He preferred manual an I CT. I should not though CT can make it a little harder to make small adjustments in your attack.
At Bozon's suggestion I will switch back to manual trim dive bomb attacks.
I easiest plane to run manual trim on is the mustang. I am sure there are others but the 51 comes to mind.
Interesting the P47 in WW2 testing was always noted as a hard plane to trim if I remember right. IN AH it is no worse or better than the P-38.
My biggest problem with manual trim using a slider is resetting it for takeoff.
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This is a topic I am interested in as in my whole aces high career I have never turned combat trim off.
It doesn't make you fall out of the sky, and depending on your fighting style/plane choice it will have more or less of an effect on you. I only started fiddling with turning it off the last few months as I noticed in the situations I described above it can affect how smooth a maneuver is. It seems to me if I am making a hard turn with CT on, riding the blackout tunnel with the stick motionless, as I slow down it feels like the amount I'm pulling on the stick hitches slightly as the CT adjusts for the decreasing airspeed. I can see the blackout tunnel hitch slightly without moving the stick. Without CT on, that hitching goes away, and the pull is smoother. In the 'game of inches' of turnfighting, I find it helps a little bit, or it could all be in my head.
Best example of a plane that benefits from it is an F4U with flaps out. With full flaps out, you've got to put in a buttload of forward stick to keep the nose level. If you manually trim your nose down a few clicks to turn off CT, it's a lot easier to handle in the stall-150mph range.
If I'm doing anything other than stallfighting or landing, I keep my CT on. If I'm landing, I get all my flaps out and gear down, kill the throttle, and autopilot on angle to get the plane flying true for whatever condition I'm intending on setting down in, and then move the stick to turn it off and land.
Wiley.
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CT constantly trims your plane for level flight at full throttle regardless of what you are currently doing. Its only input is your current IAS.
In a dog fight the problem with CT is that it tends to make me bleed too much energy in a turn - If you hold the stick at a constant deflection, as your plane loses speed in the turn it keeps triming you nose-up, i.e. increase your angle of attack for the stick deflection that you are holding. For this reason I tend to keep it off most of the time.
In a dive, CT will keep triming you nose-down as speed builds up, making pull out ever more difficult. On planes like the 109, P-38, mosquito and some others it is almost a suicide device.
On the other hand, you generally do not want to be far off the "neutral" (i.e. level flight) trim. The compromise I adopted is to use the CT as a quick rough trimmer. When trim starts to bother me and I do not want to mess with the manual trims I turn it on for a second and immediately off again. I have it mapped to a button on my stick and go click-click when my speed changes and I feel "out of trim". In some planes the rudder needs a lot of trim input as speed varies (F6F for example, mosquito to a lesser degree). It is important to keep the slip/skid ball centered to conserved energy. Click-click, problem solved. I pulled some hard break turn and lost lots of speed, I find I keep constant back pressure on the stick - click-click, done. I am as close to trimmed as I need. For non-maneuvering flight, you have the auto-level, auto-angle and auto-speed (aka auto climb) trims.
One warning about turning CT on & off - do not do it while you are pulling Gs and in particular when the stall buzzer is buzzing. It will "jump" your trim instantaneously and you risk it pushing you beyond the stall and snapping the plane into a spin.
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I have had manual trim dump me into the water on a NOE below 50 feet when switching to and from auto level flight. Not sure exactly sure how it happens but seems to happen when there is a large discrepancy between manual trim and auto level trim.
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I turn CT off when climb turning in a fight and manually trim up instead. I feel like this I fight the stick less, this is mostly with spits, K4s, KIs, LAs, P38s...ect All the fighters where it is in your interest to slow down and try to force your enemy to bleed off his energy in a climb fight. When I have him flattened out however, and have the advantage, I CT to shoot.
For some odd reason CT hurts my dive bombing. I will trim manual before starting the attack.
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I have always left CT on...
it does not make that big a difference.
stall limiter....YES turn that off.
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I have always left CT on...
it does not make that big a difference.
stall limiter....YES turn that off.
I disagree... CT makes a HUGE difference the slower you get.
Try this one time, and get back to me. Set a button to turn it on and off. To do this you won't need to manually trim anything, just get an on off button set up.
When you get into a combat situation, at 200, turn it off. When you are turning and burning, especially when you nose up for a shot, you will find that with CT off, you will not be fighting so hard to get a shot. The instability is worse when you add in flaps.
I use to have the worst time in a hog, low slow, with flaps out trying to get guns on target. I found out that CT was adjusting the trim, and my nose was going all over the place. Now when I fly the hog, all I do is click off CT at 200, and don't turn it back on till I am out of a fight.
Try it, you may see a difference.
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38s are great in the zoom. You can get under 100 coming over the top easily with control unless you have CT on. With it on and that slow the 38 almost gets stuck in the air. With it off I have no trouble kicking rudder and coming around on a guy. Hit him with rounds as I dive back down, or so much.
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Hey Scca,
Some planes in AH having CT turned on and dogfighting and angles/turn fighting when slow under 200 ias or slower, it will not be as pronounced as it is in the F4U series ....
Some of the more forgiving aircraft in AH are the Zekes, most of the spitfires just to name some...
As you already are aware, using CT in the F4U series and flying slower than say 250~240 ias and you'll start experiencing stuff like nose bounce and nose popping upwards, each time you drop another notch of flaps.... Damn battery is dieing... Got to find my charger...
I'll come back to finish my post....
A quick note: I Seldomly if ever use CT ( combat trim ), I normally will get whatever plane I am in to regular straight level cruise speed flight ( usually somewhere from 270 ias thru 325/335 ias , depending on aircraft type ) then, I'll turn CT off ... Before I enter a dogfight...
This way, I help my self with more than just the nose bounce and flaps problems....
Will come back later, phone dieing...
<§>
TC
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IMHO most newer players are best served with leaving CT on,it reduses pilot load and lets the player consentrate on the fight. Stall limiter should be turned off asap.
While CT does have some issues,as it doesnt take flaps into account and tends to dial in full up elevator which can cause you to fight the nose up attitude,I still think most new players should leave it on until they are familar and comfortable enough to turn it off.
I use CT about 90% of the time,there are only a few planes I turn it off for as a rule,38 comes to mind but I also have trim mapped to a couple of hatswitches which makes adjusting trim easy and I can override CT with a simple tap of a button,likewise I can turn it back on with another button.
Most new players tend to fly either the spits or 51,while the 51 might benefit from using manual trim the spits will be even easier to fly if you leave CT on.
It's pretty easy to tell players to turn it off,you dont need it but you must remember when you first started and how difficult it was to just keep your plane in the air once you learned to turn off stall limiter! Most players would be better off learning BFM long before turning off CT.
YMMV.
:salute
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Morf I'm sure you mean to say that combat trim dials in full up elevator trim not full up elevator. :aok
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I disagree... CT makes a HUGE difference the slower you get.
Try this one time, and get back to me. Set a button to turn it on and off. To do this you won't need to manually trim anything, just get an on off button set up.
When you get into a combat situation, at 200, turn it off. When you are turning and burning, especially when you nose up for a shot, you will find that with CT off, you will not be fighting so hard to get a shot. The instability is worse when you add in flaps.
I use to have the worst time in a hog, low slow, with flaps out trying to get guns on target. I found out that CT was adjusting the trim, and my nose was going all over the place. Now when I fly the hog, all I do is click off CT at 200, and don't turn it back on till I am out of a fight.
Try it, you may see a difference.
I have tried it...right now I have it mapped to down on my castle hat switch....I just never use it....it may make a difference but it certainly isnt the same as stall limiter....it truly is minor IMO
it could be it has more effect on different planes :headscratch:
I have taken to the Ki last year or so, and have always flown the turny birds..have thousands of fights....probably more like hundreds of thousands of fights.....but truly never thought fighting the best in the DA or 5-6-7-8 and more guys in the MA..... damn I coulda won if my CT was off.
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Morf I'm sure you mean to say that combat trim dials in full up elevator trim not full up elevator. :aok
Indeed I did,fell asleep at the keyboard yet again,sux getting old I tell you! :old:
:salute
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it could be it has more effect on different planes :headscratch:
Ink, yes, the effect is much more pronounced in certain planes, especially planes where flaps are used more often and whose flaps have a bigger effect on the FM. You probably don't notice it much in the Ki-84. Try flying any of the Corsair series for a tour and I think you'll see what I mean.
My simple rule of thumb for CT use (particularly in the Corsair) is: flaps down, CT off -- flaps up, CT on.
As Morf said, it does create more workload (at least one more button push to remember) for those planes that are affected by it.
<S>
Ryno
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Ink, yes, the effect is much more pronounced in certain planes, especially planes where flaps are used more often and whose flaps have a bigger effect on the FM. You probably don't notice it much in the Ki-84. Try flying any of the Corsair series for a tour and I think you'll see what I mean.
My simple rule of thumb for CT use (particularly in the Corsair) is: flaps down, CT off -- flaps up, CT on.
As Morf said, it does create more workload (at least one more button push to remember) for those planes that are affected by it.
<S>
Ryno
CC that... :salute
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I've never used CT, perhaps that's why I'm so awful :)
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Combat trim doesn't work at very high and very low speeds. I gave a toggle mapped to my stick. I leave CT on when I'm just flying around but turn it off when I enter a fight, then, if I get a chance to unload the airframe momentarily I'll flip it on then off to reset trim to my current speed.
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Any of you guys uses Trim Set during a dogfight?
I experience it to be the quickest way to trim your plane perfect to any given attitude. Flaps, no flaps, whatever.
I have mapped Trim Set and CT on the castle switch.
Pull any maneuver, hit trim set, when leveling out, reengage CT.
I miss anything?
For landing I turn off ct and neutral al trims manual.
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Hey Scca,
Some planes in AH having CT turned on and dogfighting and angles/turn fighting when slow under 200 ias or slower, it will not be as pronounced as it is in the F4U series ....
Some of the more forgiving aircraft in AH are the Zekes, most of the spitfires just to name some...
As you already are aware, using CT in the F4U series and flying slower than say 250~240 ias and you'll start experiencing stuff like nose bounce and nose popping upwards, each time you drop another notch of flaps.... Damn battery is dieing... Got to find my charger...
I'll come back to finish my post....
A quick note: I Seldomly if ever use CT ( combat trim ), I normally will get whatever plane I am in to regular straight level cruise speed flight ( usually somewhere from 270 ias thru 325/335 ias , depending on aircraft type ) then, I'll turn CT off ... Before I enter a dogfight...
This way, I help my self with more than just the nose bounce and flaps problems....
Will come back later, phone dieing...
<§>
TC
:salute TC... Long time no see...
You are likely 100% correct. I started AH in the Spit IX, then did a session with a trainer, the best F4U trainer I could find... you :)
Since I pretty much only fly 'merican stuff now, I do make sure to turn off CT during all ACM when things slow down. It's uncommon for me to be found in anything but the big radials....
:cheers:
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38s are great in the zoom. You can get under 100 coming over the top easily with control unless you have CT on. With it on and that slow the 38 almost gets stuck in the air. With it off I have no trouble kicking rudder and coming around on a guy. Hit him with rounds as I dive back down, or so much.
Are you saying that the trim tab over rides the authority of the elevator?
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Are you saying that the trim tab over rides the authority of the elevator?
I'm not really sure WHAT I'm saying, ask anybody :D
It seems to me that if Im almost strait up at 80 with Combat Trim on I have lots of trouble getting the nose to come around. If I flick off Combat Trim and do the same zoom climb I have far less trouble coming around at 80. I've notched the same in the pony and F4u as well but try not to get THAT slow in those. I understand I have far less control authority at slower speeds but with the CT on it feels like I get stuck in the air for a second or two.
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I'm not really sure WHAT I'm saying, ask anybody :D
It seems to me that if Im almost strait up at 80 with Combat Trim on I have lots of trouble getting the nose to come around. If I flick off Combat Trim and do the same zoom climb I have far less trouble coming around at 80. I've notched the same in the pony and F4u as well but try not to get THAT slow in those. I understand I have far less control authority at slower speeds but with the CT on it feels like I get stuck in the air for a second or two.
Still un-clear, please define what you mean by coming around, are you attempting to loop the aircraft, your at the top and pulling back pressure to bring the nose over the top and head down hill ? or are you pushing negative G's trying to push the nose over and proceed down hill?
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I have a CT on/off button on my joystick, and I use it alot. Always turn it off when in a dogfight, just switching it on/off if the speed changes so I feel the nose start going up or down.. Just to reset the trim to my current speed, as others have mentionned before me..
Before when flying the corsairs I even used manual trim while in hard turns on full flaps, I thought it was easier to handle the corsair really slow if I trimmed the nose up a tad just enough so I did not have to pull so hard on the stick. I even noticed a few clicks on the trim could make me gain on the equal corsair pilot if we ended up in a whitenuckle looping turnfight for eachothers 6.
It should not make any difference in the turning ability of the plane wether it was trimmed or not, the stall would still be the same and the plane don't turn any harder than the laws of physics allow even with manual trim. But maybe I just found it easier to keep steady when I did not have to pull back as hard on my stick, I don't know.. But it worked quite well for me anyway. :)
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CT constantly trims your plane for level flight at full throttle regardless of what you are currently doing. Its only input is your current IAS.
In a dog fight the problem with CT is that it tends to make me bleed too much energy in a turn - If you hold the stick at a constant deflection, as your plane loses speed in the turn it keeps trimming you nose-up, i.e. increase your angle of attack for the stick deflection that you are holding. For this reason I tend to keep it off most of the time.
In a dive, CT will keep trimming you nose-down as speed builds up, making pull out ever more difficult. On planes like the 109, P-38, mosquito and some others it is almost a suicide device.
On the other hand, you generally do not want to be far off the "neutral" (i.e. level flight) trim. The compromise I adopted is to use the CT as a quick rough trimmer. When trim starts to bother me and I do not want to mess with the manual trims I turn it on for a second and immediately off again. I have it mapped to a button on my stick and go click-click when my speed changes and I feel "out of trim". In some planes the rudder needs a lot of trim input as speed varies (F6F for example, mosquito to a lesser degree). It is important to keep the slip/skid ball centered to conserved energy. Click-click, problem solved. I pulled some hard break turn and lost lots of speed, I find I keep constant back pressure on the stick - click-click, done. I am as close to trimmed as I need. For non-maneuvering flight, you have the auto-level, auto-angle and auto-speed (aka auto climb) trims.
One warning about turning CT on & off - do not do it while you are pulling Gs and in particular when the stall buzzer is buzzing. It will "jump" your trim instantaneously and you risk it pushing you beyond the stall and snapping the plane into a spin.
First please read this:
"Trim tabs are small surfaces connected to the trailing edge of a larger control surface on an aircraft, used to control the trim of the controls, i.e. to counter aerodynamic forces and stabilize the aircraft in a particular desired attitude without the need for the operator to constantly apply a control force. This is done by adjusting the angle of the tab relative to the larger surface.
Changing the setting of a trim tab adjusts the neutral or resting position of a control surface (such as an elevator or rudder). As the desired position of a control surface changes (corresponding mainly to different speeds), an adjustable trim tab will allow the operator to reduce the manual force required to maintain that position—to zero, if used correctly.
Thus the trim tab acts as a servo tab. Because the center of pressure of the trim tab is farther away from the axis of rotation of the control surface than the center of pressure of the control surface, the moment generated by the tab can match the moment generated by the control surface.
The position of the control surface on its axis will change until the torques from the control surface and the trim surface balance each other."
The sole purpose of Trim is to counteract aerodynamic forces on the aircraft in a particular desired attitude. One more time, The sole purpose of Trim is to counteract aerodynamic forces on the aircraft in a particular desired attitude.
it doesn't make the aircraft turn faster. The attitude of the aircraft is altered with a combination of control inputs, to move the rudder and ailerons on a given wing configuration the result of those inputs is a given attitude of the aircraft. If you alter the wing configuration (add or reduce flaps) the attitude will change and may or may not require a trim change as a result in the aerodynamic forces on the controls.
An aircraft that is "in Trim" performs better than an aircraft that is "out of Trim". Aircraft that are "out of Trim" will slow faster and require more energy to maintain altitude and cruise slower. If your stick controls will not allow you to pull enough G's to achieve a max performance turn and you are using trim to increase that AOA, then you need to re-calibrate your stick.
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SAJ73 do you scale the pitch axis?
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SAJ73 do you scale the pitch axis?
I have not played alot with the scaling no, I should probably try that and see if I notice anything better or worse.. :aok
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The reason I ask is because scaling benefits from trimming the nose up since it leaves you more "scaled" at the critical AOA. Without scaling it's just a difference in spring tension.