Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Wiley on August 08, 2014, 04:41:34 PM
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It was mentioned in another thread today and I figured it would work better here instead of as a hijack.
I've seen more than one person mention how they flew a significant distance with no vstab and ditched or landed their plane. HOW?!
Any time I've lost my vstab I have had approximately 10 seconds of vaguely controlled flight before my plane fluttered toward earth mother's welcoming embrace like a leaf.
Wiley.
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From last month's FSO:
Gear down - No Elevators or Rudder.
Hardest landing I ever pulled off.
(http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/stampf/noelev_zpsed7e920c.jpg)
Here's how I pulled it off. It was crazy. First attempt at the runway was going to end in a crash so I went around again. Obviously I had no way to keep the nose down, and could not rudder down for flap speed. Figured I would just stay up and run intell until I ran out of gas. Then my engine quit (oil hit too) so I had only the choice of riding it in or bailing out. Was too far from airfield runway and spotted a nice clearing. Rolled over inverted so my nose pointed down, got flaps and gear out while upside down, and about 10 feet above ground I rolled back right side up, and touched down. Was really cool. I bounced hard and thought I might buy the farm...but she held together.
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Wiley without film it's just a story.
Maybe they only lost their rudder and elevators. Nice landing. :aok
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Wiley did you loose the whole unit or just the movable part? As long as you have the fixed fin, you can get it home, or to a ditch with some work. FLS would know which rides can sustain missing the whole unit. Most need at least the fixed fin.
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Wiley without film it's just a story.
Maybe they only lost their rudder and elevators. Nice landing. :aok
Waitwaitwait... you mean people don't always tell the truth? :(
I kind of wondered if that might be the case, but enough people have mentioned it I figured there might be something to it.
I'm pretty sure I kept the film of the only time I've done anything other than die with no vstab when I ditched a 262 without one once, but I had precisely zero control over my heading. I just happened to have enough control to keep my wings level and my descent rate low enough that the happy coincidence of my sub-200mph speed allowed me to survive ditching in the water.
bustr- I'm talking about losing the fixed fin. I had assumed that was what people were talking about, but maybe some of them do mean rudder.
Stampf- Nice landing. I've brought in one or two missing everything but an aileron, but it wasn't easy and I don't think I could do it in a deadstick 190. I have enough trouble deadsticking one in that has all its moving parts. :D
Wiley.
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Complete loss of all vert stab surface?
first off kill your engine...but after that...I have never landed one with complete loss of stab and rudder. Shouldn't be possible, except under extreme pre-existing low speed/low alt conditions, resulting in basically a crash that one walked away from.
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If you were somehow stable enough to fly you'd likely destabilize if you slowed to land. You might get a survivable crash.
Many things are possible even though they are unlikely, as we've seen with other films, but without film there isn't much to explain.
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It was mentioned in another thread today and I figured it would work better here instead of as a hijack.
I've seen more than one person mention how they flew a significant distance with no vstab and ditched or landed their plane. HOW?!
Any time I've lost my vstab I have had approximately 10 seconds of vaguely controlled flight before my plane fluttered toward earth mother's welcoming embrace like a leaf.
Wiley.
I landed a 109E with no vstab last night. I was practicing offline to see how short/long of a burst it took with the MGs only to kill various planes, which requires shooting in very close. I tried some of these on BnZ passes, and many times could get the enemy plane to explode before I collided, except once.
I ducked too late under one of the planes that didn't go "boom" and lost my vStab, rudder and left elevator. Once I realized the 09E was maintaining level flight, I was able to turn it (slowly) around 180 degrees while reducing power and bringing it into a long approach to the field. I was able get a safe (survived) crash-landing on the runway. Unfortunately, I didn't think to save the film as it didn't immediately strike me as unusual, as I have landed planes with a variety of damage before (but perhaps not without the vstab).
I was in roughly level flight at relatively high speed for the 09E (over 300 mph+) at the time of the collision. I don't know if speed was a factor in not losing immediate control or if it was more the fact that I was simply continuing in level flight and not at a greater AoA. The plane did remain surprisingly stable even as I turned and slowed for approach, having cut throttle in order to descend.
Something special about the 09E that may have assisted this?
I may try duplicating it again (with an intentional collision) and will post a film of it if I do. AH doesn't have a .hurtme command like there was in WB's does it?
<S>
Ryno
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Much of the yaw that we counter with rudder comes from the spiral slipstream pushing the vertical stabilizer. Remove the stabilizer and there is less yaw to deal with along with the loss of your primary yaw control.
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AH doesn't have a .hurtme command like there was in WB's does it?
<S>
Ryno
Nope, unfortunately not. :)
Managed to find the film (yay) and cut it down to the pertinent part. ...We will not speak of the gunnery run on the Lanc, I have no idea what I was thinking. ...Now that I think about it, it's kind of shameful that my 262 got schwacked by a Lanc, but oh well.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ci2u9q4v972vn6z/nostab262ditchcut.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ci2u9q4v972vn6z/nostab262ditchcut.ahf)
So basically I was a leaf on the wind, I was grumbling at myself as I fell then noticed I could vary my descent rate and was going slow enough I might survive, so I figured I'd try to save half my perks.
Turning trails on shows how little control I had available to me as I fell with style.
Wiley.
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Did you try throttle control for yaw? Jet engine response is slow but you do have 2 engines.
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Did you try throttle control for yaw? Jet engine response is slow but you do have 2 engines.
Throttle was firewalled the whole way through. My basic thought process at the time was "I'm around 100mph and descent rate is occasionally getting into the survivable range, I'm not going to touch anything."
Wiley.
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Hope that you're right side up when you lose the surface use small corrections in roll throttle if needed to keep the plane moving forward and also down you will be rotating in a flat spin, try to keep thr plane upright and semi aim for an open patch next hope/prey that you get your timing right to be at correct attitude and speed to skid to a stop instead of falling from the sky. Ive landed two in the manner pure luck on the timing but speed and knowledge of the affected a/c is crucial to getting to the hope/pray section of the exercise...
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Complete loss of all vert stab surface?
first off kill your engine...but after that...I have never landed one with complete loss of stab and rudder. Shouldn't be possible, except under extreme pre-existing low speed/low alt conditions, resulting in basically a crash that one walked away from.
I have flown to a safe ditch distance many times and almost back to a field a couple others with no vert stab. It's easier the better your plane's roll rate is (and less a chance with those ac to trigger the "don't move your controls too rapidly "), like a 190 :devil . The best way to describe it is like flying down a half pipe, you feel the plane slipping from controlled flight, roll it 180, it will quickly start wanting to slip the other way, so you roll counter to the last another 180 - rinse and repeat add nauseum. A few times practicing it, and you can start controlling it enough to ditch and then maybe controlling a general direction of flight (for successful ditching and maybe even land it.
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the 109e is the only plane I have found in AH that can fly without a Vstab. Bug or design, not sure.
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the 109e is the only plane I have found in AH that can fly without a Vstab. Bug or design, not sure.
Yeah I've managed to fly it very far without a vstab just last night...I was very surprised.
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I have landed a few F4U's without the Vstab...I have no film, but I think it is an "accomplishment" thingy you may be able to look it up in my stats. to see that I actually did accomplish the task.
Without the Vstab you have to use throttle and elevators and you prolly might try flying 90 degrees from level...in other words, your elevators become your Vstab, and your throttle becomes your elevators, and you may have to switch from one mode of flying to the other. It is not easy to accomplish but it can be done and it takes concentration and patience!
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the 109e is the only plane I have found in AH that can fly without a Vstab. Bug or design, not sure.
Mosquito can fly and land without the vertical stab quite easily. Did it many times. I suppose all the twins can, but I never had to in a different one. The 38 has two tails - the chances of losing both with the rest of the plane not disintegrating is small.
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Anything with dihedral would have some yaw compensation.
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Mosquito can fly and land without the vertical stab quite easily. Did it many times. I suppose all the twins can, but I never had to in a different one. The 38 has two tails - the chances of losing both with the rest of the plane not disintegrating is small.
Ah, I never had that luck in her. Did you use dual throttle for this or just careful control?
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Ah, I never had that luck in her. Did you use dual throttle for this or just careful control?
If you are careful and use gentle control inputs she can fly without differential throttles. The latter can get you out of trouble if you roll the plane too much and induce a strong side slip. I used 2/3 throttle and had #2 engine selected (I have only 1 physical throttle) so I can throttle it up/down to center the ball more or less, but as I said it was not really needed. Happened at least 2 times that I can remember.
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very interesting, thank you for the tip
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I have several films of landing a mossie without vertical stab or rudder. If you want to see them will find and post.
You get achievement for landing without both elevators (also done in a mossie).
Ringo