Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: -tronski- on August 10, 2014, 12:48:32 AM
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After 16 long months I'm just over 28 days (fingers crossed) from being to purchase my first handgun - the way things are here its very difficult to try different firearms unless you know someone at your club who has one and is willing to let you try it - which lets face it most shooter do. I've narrowed it down to either a Walther PPQ Navy SD or 1911. I usually use our clubs CZ SP-01, M&P 9l and a SAM 1911 .38 super but even though Ive never used the Walther if I went a polymer pistol I've been pretty impressed with what I've read and seen about it.
However even though I apparently have hands of a woman - I do love a 1911 so am leaning towards either a 9mm Springfield Loaded, Range Officer or a Remington R1 Enhanced.
Does anyone have experience in these or could offer an opinion about their serviceability, ease of maintenance etc?
In Aus you must have a legal reason to be licensed for firearms and mine is target shooting as home defence etc is not considered a reasonable legal reason - anything bigger than a .38 needs a special permit hence the 9mm and these are ok priced as pistols in Australia go.
Tronsky
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Interestig ... a 9mm 1911. In France I had a 8mm 1911. :joystick: Thank God in the US I have a 'real' 1911 :lol
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The 9mm 1911s I've spent time with are good in the accuracy department, but have had reliability issues. Nothing crippling, but short-strokes from time to time.
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The 9mm 1911s I've spent time with are good in the accuracy department, but have had reliability issues. Nothing crippling, but short-strokes from time to time.
Using factory ammo, or reloads (not your own)?
Can't help on the 9mm 1911's. I've own shot .45's and 10mm in a 1911, so no idea about the 9mm varieties. :frown:
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Hand guns (pistols) are horrible weapons. They are only effective if you are precise about shot placement. SHOT PLACEMENT. This is how the VTECH killer and the Muslim Army Psychiatrist in Texas were able to get so many kills. So basically, if you are much more efficient with the 9mm rather than the 45 caliber, you are better off. Personally, I use a Remington 870 pump action shotgun for personal defense. At close range, each pellet has the same amount of kinetic energy as a .38 caliber round.
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Using factory ammo, or reloads (not your own)?
Can't help on the 9mm 1911's. I've own shot .45's and 10mm in a 1911, so no idea about the 9mm varieties. :frown:
Factory ammo. I don't have extensive experience, I've used a buddy's at the range several times, and in about 3 range outings and I would say 20 magazines, I had probably jams. I went the .45 myself, but sadly it doesn't seem to be an option for the OP.
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Interestig ... a 9mm 1911. In France I had a 8mm 1911. :joystick: Thank God in the US I have a 'real' 1911 :lol
You can get a high cap permit for pistols chambered between .38 and .45, but theres no way I can satisfy the licensing requirements otherwise I'd be looking at .40 or .45 myself.
But the 9mm is a good start - and the ammo is fairly cheap too
Personally, I use a Remington 870 pump action shotgun for personal defense.
Unfortunately pump action shotguns are restricted, as are self loading rifles etc otherwise to be honest I'd probably already have one, and or probably some type of AR-15.
But like pistols you can get them but the hoops you need to jump through to not only obtain but then keep them is designed to discourage all but those willing to put in the time and effort to tick all these boxes....and there are plenty of boxes. Normal long arms are easier, and there are plenty around but there is a lot of heat in the public when it comes to pistol shooting & ownership.
Tronsky
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You can get a high cap permit for pistols chambered between .38 and .45, but theres no way I can satisfy the licensing requirements otherwise I'd be looking at .40 or .45 myself.
But the 9mm is a good start - and the ammo is fairly cheap too
Unfortunately pump action shotguns are restricted, as are self loading rifles etc otherwise to be honest I'd probably already have one, and or probably some type of AR-15.
But like pistols you can get them but the hoops you need to jump through to not only obtain but then keep them is designed to discourage all but those willing to put in the time and effort to tick all these boxes....and there are plenty of boxes. Normal long arms are easier, and there are plenty around but there is a lot of heat in the public when it comes to pistol shooting & ownership.
Tronsky
No offense Tronski, and I have met some fine people from Australia, but those restrictions suck!
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Polymer pistols are quite comfortable to shoot and may be your best option with the 9mm load.
Like some have said the lower power round doesn't cycle the 1911 action as well as a 45 cal.
Better to have a reliable piece than none at all. :aok
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First off, forget the debate regarding 9mm vs 45 in the 1911. It is a purely a moot point for your country restrictions. There are tons of folks competing and shooting the 9mm 1911 style pistol all the time with no more problems than the 45 version. The 9mm is actually higher powered both in pressure and velocity to the 45 so function is not a factor in the caliber. Condition of the gun (cleanliness, lube, mechanical factors like magazine) and quality of the ammo are far more critical to function than caliber per se. Using modern ammo, ie Hornady self defense puts the 9mm to be about as effective as the 45 is. It's the old ball ammo (solid slug, no hp) that makes the 38 and 9mm so bad compared to 45 ball.
Buy a quality pistol like the range officer, use good magazines and decent ammo and you will be fine. Unless the polymer pistol flexes alot, felt recoil will be the same. The polymer pistol can have MORE recoil since it tends to be lighter and a lighter gun has less mass to absorb the recoil pulse. In the 9mm that's not that big of a deal anyhow.
You can also get recoil springs of varying strength to use to set the pistol to the ammo you use. Should you slow the 9mm down to 45 velocity a weaker spring will enhance reliability. Just go back to the full strength one when you use full power ammo. In any case use a good grip when shooting. Limp wristing a semi auto pistol can induce malfunctions in ANY caliber including 45.
The 38 super is just short of the 357 sig for velocity but the ammo is likely to be more expensive and harder to find. 9mm is very very plentiful compared to other calibers because it is a standard military round. Lots of companies manufacture it.
The 1911 format is also very easy to find custom parts, grips, sights to use to make the gun your own idea of a great fit. Maintaining it is a snap as long as you learn to dissassemble and reassemble it properly. Keep it clean and lightly lubed and it will run fine. Personally I like stainless more than blue steel simply because it tends to look better over time. Bluing tends to wear a bit with heavy use or where there is high humidity since it will rust far easier. YMMV as these things are always subjective.
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Using modern ammo, ie Hornady self defense puts the 9mm to be about as effective as the 45 is. It's the old ball ammo (solid slug, no hp) that makes the 38 and 9mm so bad compared to 45 ball.
That's not a fair comparison. While both are great rounds, there is NO WAY a 9 MM will compare in both exterior and terminal ballistics givin a comparable projectile. I don't think a 115 grain or even a 147 grain 9MM hot load will come close in terminal performance to a 185 or 235 grain .45 with the same bullet. The 45 will win hands down
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Get the PPQ and go on with your day. Of those mentioned its the least likely to cause you trouble.
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Ive seen far less of a real life difference then a paper difference. A quality +P or +P+ JHP in 9mm is all the defense you'll ever need. The importance of placement far outweighs any possible argument in paper ballistics. Mind you I carry a .45ACP every day but also carry a SW 3953 without hesitation. In it I carry 110 grn +P+ JHPs and worry not at all.
I think many shooters would be better served with a 9mm they can shoot better then a .45 . In the summer months we get 30, 40, 50, 60, a week "NOT stopped" by handgun rounds of all kinds. Very, Very few of them mouse guns or bad ammo. If you dont hit lung/heart, spine/brain, you will be thoroughly unimpressed with handgun round performance.
That's not a fair comparison. While both are great rounds, there is NO WAY a 9 MM will compare in both exterior and terminal ballistics givin a comparable projectile. I don't think a 115 grain or even a 147 grain 9MM hot load will come close in terminal performance to a 185 or 235 grain .45 with the same bullet. The 45 will win hands down
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I've always favored the 1911 due to how it fit in my hand and pointed, it has the perfect grip angle for me, and is wide and narrow in all the right places IMO. I've also really like shooting the 9mm chambered 1911's I've owned. My first was a polymer framed 14 rnd cap Para Ord 1911, but I've had Commander length 9mm's from several manufacturers, and several full size from various as well. 3000$ Knighthawk 9mm is excellent, but you can get by just fine with a sub 1000$ 9mm 1911 from anyone, so long as you check it out for quality, lock up, parts quality, etc. Some 9mm may have higher "pressure" than most .45 rounds, but that isn't all that is involved in term of felt recoil, generally nearly every 9mm chambered 1911 will result in less felt recoil and muzzle flip than its .45 chambered counterpart. 556 is generally higher pressure than 762x51, yet in the same AR platform for example, 556 will always result in lower recoil and flip. Personally where I really notice a large difference in felt recoil and flip is with the Commander length 1911 in 9mm, they have far less to deal with than their 45 counterparts.
As the OP stated due to his location, terminal ballistics aren't really important to him, so the whole usual argument that is always brought up regarding "defense" load performance (I think it was post 3 or 4 this time) is irrelevant to him. This has been covered on this BBS recently already, and Rich46yo likely has the best information you can ask for. If I want to know about rifle and pistol service life and longevity under abusive conditions for example, I would seek out a rental range than pounds rounds by the 1000's through them. If I wanted to know about rifle round performance, I would seek out somebody who has recently used or seen their effects in recent wars.
Pistols - well, there aren't a lot of places in the world that see the focused use of mainly pistol rounds, not rifle, on people that Chicago does, and Rich is on the front line dealing with that. His info tracts exactly with what all the major gunfighting schools teach, as well as the few instances where I've seen handgun rounds effects myself. The further the rounds strike from the cone of vulnerability which stretches from below the belt buckle to the top of the head, and is around a 5" oval column in the vertical, the less effective they are. Anyhow, like the OP said, this isn't a concern to him, and IMO a 1911 in 9mm is a great pistol for target shooting and learning to use a pistol properly, and is less expensive to feed than almost every other caliber other than .22.
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As a beginning shooter, I highly suggest the 9mm. I'm not so sure the 1911 is a good model to start with though. It is a complicated system.
Check out the Sig P6. There are a ton of them being imported right now from Germany (they were used by German law enforcement). They are cheap (less than $400); high quality (Sig-Sauer and made in Germany); have a single stack 8rd mag (comes with 2 mags); and cheap to shoot (9mm Luger/Parabellum). I really like mine.
Keep it simple. Dont listen to the lectures on which caliber is "better", or which gun is better, or which platform is better, blah blah blah. Just keep it simple. Learn this basics and THEN spend the money on other stuff. Your biggest expenditure over the next few years should be ammo, not new guns, scopes, camo, or other such tacti-coolio BS. Whatever you do, I suggest sticking to the 9mm for a multitude of reasons.
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Keep it simple. Dont listen to the lectures on which caliber is "better", or which gun is better, or which platform is better, blah blah blah
Good advice, advice which pertains directly to the P6 you recommend. Many countries, Australia being among them, have barrel length restrictions for handguns. Canada for example has a 106mm minimum length for importation of restricted handguns. You have to be careful when recommending things to folks outside of the USA as a whole different set of rules applies.
FYI - I worked for Sig for 11 years off and on, so I don't disagree that the P225 surplus aren't a great way to go, however they are considered a prohibited weapon in Canada and are banned from import for most civilians. Australia is a similar deal, and has complicated bbl length restrictions based on the size of the overall frame/pistol, but generally 120mm and 100mm/if pistol is 250mm overall measured parallel to the bbl, so the P225 at 98mm is out as well there. Confused yet?
Anyhow, the OP wanted a 1911, and I don't see them as being THAT much more complicated or difficult to get parts for, or learn to shoot safely and properly with proper instruction. It could be argued that due to the single action nature of the 1911, following the 4 major safety rules is even more important, and a good way to learn things the correct way first, with a pistol that isn't designed to prevent lawsuits. I was taught with a 4" Smith 38 and a 1911 .45 before learning to drive, and things turned out just fine for me.
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Some great opinions thanks fellas
Mav -all great advice and I too prefer a stainless 1911
Smokin Loon - SIG make a fine pistol, but they are very expensive here with a P226 starting at $1600 with the X5 $2000+. Anytime the words Firearm & Australia are combined it instantly climbs in cost. A Glock 17 & M&P9l both start mid $800, with a Gen 4 nearly $900. And Gman is correct, the min barrel length here is 120mm so if I'm correct that if the P6 is a subcompact it is a restricted barrel length. But I also agree with Gman about your offer of Keep it simple thats a great way to start
No offense Tronski, and I have met some fine people from Australia, but those restrictions suck!
None taken - and they do, so you can imagine the frustration we have with it all
Tronsky
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULysvxSYfoU
Some gun pron to remind you what you can't have... :P
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I wouldnt hesitate to buy a CZ 9mm.
I also kinda figured your reason for buying <wink> <wink> also included home defense.
I always had an interest in the .38 super. Most of all back when I was competing. I never got around to getting one but if your reloading then why not consider it? It, and the 10mm, were always rounds I wished I had a reason to buy. Add the .357 SIG to that list.
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The fact that im seeing people talk about the 38Super makes me grin like the Cheshire cat.....I shoot a custom IPSC 1911 (EGW/Baer) in 38super. Love that round.
Ive shot a few of the 1911s in 9mm, a pure joy to shoot..... one was a Kimber, the other a Springfield..Very enjoyable.
Smokin...I knew you had class :D :aok I have a Sig P225 which is one of my primary CCW guns, but also love target shooting with it, thing is a tackdriver.....great mention there sir!!
Biggest difference in the P6 from the P225 that ive read are the main spring is heavier (28lbs vs 24lbs) And some blurbs ive read that due to the feed ramp, they (p6s) arent the most reliable with JHP rounds...theres a notch in the hammer of the P6 and the sights are usually just plain black........
None of these would mean much if your shooting ball target loads thru it, and they are readily available....
Good luck tronski....let us know how you make out sir :aok
Edit....sry tronski...just noticed the posts regarding your BBL length restrictions......scratch the P6
Rich if your ever in PA and want to shoot my 38super....offer is out there...shoot me a note if your commin out this way
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I actually prefer the P225 over many of the P229 models as the slide serrations and slide itself are larger and far easier to manipulate with gloves on, or under stress when fine motor skills begin to degrade somewhat. Outside of the USA the Sig P220 in 9mm is pretty popular as well, it's a single stack 9 round capacity variant of the P220/.45, and is more narrow and lighter than the 45 common variant, yet still has the (IMO) better grip angle than the P226 that the 220 has. It also qualifies as importable both in Aus and Canada due to having a barrel length that is over 106 for Canada, and fits the 100mm/250mm overall for Australia. Another good pistol as well. There are many, many good options to begin with, but like the OP said, and I mentioned before, the 1911 in 9mm is a great way to start, and is one of my favorite pistol to plink on the range with as well.
O/T below.
I too shot 38 super back in the 90's and very early 2000's, I had a couple Caspian race guns that I used for competing up here. Lots of flash and noise to get those compensators working, it's always strange for new shooters when they shoot them, seeing such huge flashes and unreal concussive noise, yet very, very little muzzle flip and recoil due to the comps functioning as they should.
I picked up a couple 10mm pistols back in the day as well, just things I picked up out of interest in the caliber and that were good deals that came by the shop/range I worked at as a kid and while in school. 1006 Smith and a Delta Elite Colt in 10mm. I've never shot them all that much, but 10mm was a great semi auto round.
Regarding 357 Sig - If you like 1911's, Sig Sauer offers various 1911's chambered in 357 Sig now. It's a great platform for it, the bottle nose rounds have no trouble with feedramp stoppages with the 1911 design, and all the advantages of the round are seen with the 5" or 127mm barrel giving a little bit more velocity over most semi auto pistols in the low or sub 100mm range. The round is already very quick obviously, and the bonus from the extra 10% length over many comparable pistols is notable. 9 round mags are standard, with 10's being around and reliable, giving a slim framed 1911 an 11 round capacity with 357 Sig. The Commander length 357 1911's are great IMO for CCW, flat and narrow in all the right places with a good holster, and still with the 11 rnd cap.
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After 16 long months I'm just over 28 days (fingers crossed) from being to purchase my first handgun - the way things are here its very difficult to try different firearms unless you know someone at your club who has one and is willing to let you try it - which lets face it most shooter do. I've narrowed it down to either a Walther PPQ Navy SD or 1911. I usually use our clubs CZ SP-01, M&P 9l and a SAM 1911 .38 super but even though Ive never used the Walther if I went a polymer pistol I've been pretty impressed with what I've read and seen about it.
However even though I apparently have hands of a woman - I do love a 1911 so am leaning towards either a 9mm Springfield Loaded, Range Officer or a Remington R1 Enhanced.
Does anyone have experience in these or could offer an opinion about their serviceability, ease of maintenance etc?
In Aus you must have a legal reason to be licensed for firearms and mine is target shooting as home defence etc is not considered a reasonable legal reason - anything bigger than a .38 needs a special permit hence the 9mm and these are ok priced as pistols in Australia go.
Tronsky
i've got the Remington r1 enhanced in .45acp. it is my favorite of all of my pistols. it's a $%$% gorgeous gun, fits my hand perfectly, and almost seems to aim itself.
the trigger's smooth as silk, very light, very nice short reset. she's reliably cycled virtually any ammo i've put through her.
with the weight of the Remington, in 9mm, your recoil will be almost nothing. oh yea.....i'm biased towards my 1911's. i can shoot my other pistols all day long, but when i put my 1911 in my hand, it just feels soooooo dam good. :aok
teaser....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/P4020205_zps48340ae0.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/P4020205_zps48340ae0.jpg.html)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/P4020202_zps752d6d1c.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/P4020202_zps752d6d1c.jpg.html)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/P4020200_zps07b09b00.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/P4020200_zps07b09b00.jpg.html)
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The 45 will win hands down
because shooting twice is just silly.
because i want what i shot to stay shot.
:devil
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Lots of folks like top tout the 45 as the be all and end all of handgun calibers, usually pointing and degrading other calibers. The simple fact is that the real world stats, not ballistics tests, tell a different story. The 9 and 38 are very close in performance in one shot stops when the results of real world shootings are tabulated and morgue info is totalled up. The .357 mag is even better than the 45 even though it is the same diameter as the 9 / 38. The new slugs that have been developed has made a world of difference in performance compared the old ball or even solid lead slug we used to use in the 60's. There is no "manliness" to it, just the way things are. Handguns are lousy manstoppers and it takes a rifle or a shotgun at close range to really do the job.
The argument will live on irregardless of the facts since handguns / caibers are a point of subjective opinion for many who only have range experiance to base it on.
The key factor in any fight is shot placement. A center punch to the forhead with a 22 LR is far far better than a periferal hit with a 500 S&W. Shoot what you can hit with, not what some wag on a forum touts as the solution to all problems.
The OP has a restriction he has to deal with so caliber debate is moot.
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Lots of folks like top tout the 45 as the be all and end all of handgun calibers, usually pointing and degrading other calibers. The simple fact is that the real world stats, not ballistics tests, tell a different story. The 9 and 38 are very close in performance in one shot stops when the results of real world shootings are tabulated and morgue info is totalled up. The .357 mag is even better than the 45 even though it is the same diameter as the 9 / 38. The new slugs that have been developed has made a world of difference in performance compared the old ball or even solid lead slug we used to use in the 60's. There is no "manliness" to it, just the way things are. Handguns are lousy manstoppers and it takes a rifle or a shotgun at close range to really do the job.
The argument will live on irregardless of the facts since handguns / caibers are a point of subjective opinion for many who only have range experiance to base it on.
The key factor in any fight is shot placement. A center punch to the forhead with a 22 LR is far far better than a periferal hit with a 500 S&W. Shoot what you can hit with, not what some wag on a forum touts as the solution to all problems.
The OP has a restriction he has to deal with so caliber debate is moot.
Mav, you are correct of course in the context of the OP's original post. Right on.
Arguing caliber, brand, revolver vs pistol, shotgun for home defense, etc... has, is, and always be a fun discussion with lot's of opinions backed up by statistics, ballistic comparisons and the like. Threads like this always get derailed but nevertheless are entertaining.
here's my Kimber Stainless II, which unfortunately cannot be bought by the OP in his homeland. What a great pistol this is. The quality is amazing and the firearm is much more accurate than it's current owner.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb1/bigsargewells/wellsfamilyvacation2009097.jpg) (http://s207.photobucket.com/user/bigsargewells/media/wellsfamilyvacation2009097.jpg.html)
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The only current 1911 I own is a Springfield milspec. I have no problem recommending one. Their customer service is excellent. The kimbers are excellent too.
Its really up to the Op. Does he want a serious race gun or just a plinker. I did very well in competition but they were mainly Police ones and mostly Local. I wasnt on no big time shooting circuit so I never bought an expensive race gun. Had I I would have very seriously considered a .38 super. Theres a reason this round still clings to life and thats cause its an inherently accurate round with a wide range of bullet types and weights hard core shooters love. The rifle comparison would be a .30 caliber something. With the amounts of bullet weights and types available dedicated handloaders can match and hone to a particular firearm.
When it was developed the .38 Super was THE hot defense round of its day. I couldnt begin to guess what the modern handloader can squeeze out of it in 130 grn or less bullet weights but I'd bet the performance is impressive. Or a hot ammo maker like CorBon.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULysvxSYfoU
Some gun pron to remind you what you can't have... :P
Lol thanks - I actually really like Jerry Miculek's channel - I also quite like hickok45
I wouldnt hesitate to buy a CZ 9mm.
I also kinda figured your reason for buying <wink> <wink> also included home defense.
I always had an interest in the .38 super. Most of all back when I was competing. I never got around to getting one but if your reloading then why not consider it? It, and the 10mm, were always rounds I wished I had a reason to buy. Add the .357 SIG to that list.
I'm not looking to reloading just yet - .38 super (and .357 sig) is a good round imo - but its also expensive here compared to 9mm.
home defense is not a legal reason to obtain a firearm in this country - it would not be appropriate to use my firearm to defend my family in a crisis.
I actually prefer the P225 over many of the P229 models as the slide serrations and slide itself are larger and far easier to manipulate with gloves on, or under stress when fine motor skills begin to degrade somewhat. Outside of the USA the Sig P220 in 9mm is pretty popular as well, it's a single stack 9 round capacity variant of the P220/.45, and is more narrow and lighter than the 45 common variant, yet still has the (IMO) better grip angle than the P226 that the 220 has. It also qualifies as importable both in Aus and Canada due to having a barrel length that is over 106 for Canada, and fits the 100mm/250mm overall for Australia. Another good pistol as well. There are many, many good options to begin with, but like the OP said, and I mentioned before, the 1911 in 9mm is a great way to start, and is one of my favorite pistol to plink on the range with as well.
I've never really considered a centerfire SIG because of the cost, but I might ask around about the P2022 as a quick search says its in the same price range as the Remington - I considered a .22LR mosquito during my probationary period (which is the maximum caliber allowed) - but the law in my state is that you cannot own a rimfire AND a centerfire pistol at the same time :huh
i've got the Remington r1 enhanced in .45acp. it is my favorite of all of my pistols. it's a $%$% gorgeous gun, fits my hand perfectly, and almost seems to aim itself.
Thats a sensational looking thing alright - I'm right in saying they don't come in a stainless 9mm? - otherwise that would be the icing on the cake
here's my Kimber Stainless II, which unfortunately cannot be bought by the OP in his homeland. What a great pistol this is. The quality is amazing and the firearm is much more accurate than it's current owner.
Another beauty - you can get these here with 127mm/5 inch barrel - just a bit out of my price range thats all
The only current 1911 I own is a Springfield milspec. I have no problem recommending one. Their customer service is excellent. The kimbers are excellent too.
Its really up to the Op. Does he want a serious race gun or just a plinker.
Plinker - maybe a bit of classic, or if I do end up with a poly - then shoot some standard div. For every firearm you own with target shooting as your legal reason - you have to shoot 3 comp & 1 club shoot to satisfy your license conditions. For every subsequent centerfire pistol you add 4. For alot of people it can be hard to satisfy the legal comp shoots - but I think thats the point and why they made it that way
Tronsky
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Check out the Cz-75 and all its clones. Very reliable handgun that gets better with Age. My favorite is the SAR B6 Steel Frame. Turkish made gun of very nice quality.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/wolfhunter007/wm_5159388_zps3c30ed37.jpg) (http://s294.photobucket.com/user/wolfhunter007/media/wm_5159388_zps3c30ed37.jpg.html)
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i've got the Remington r1 enhanced in .45acp. it is my favorite of all of my pistols. it's a $%$% gorgeous gun, fits my hand perfectly, and almost seems to aim itself.
the trigger's smooth as silk, very light, very nice short reset. she's reliably cycled virtually any ammo i've put through her.
with the weight of the Remington, in 9mm, your recoil will be almost nothing. oh yea.....i'm biased towards my 1911's. i can shoot my other pistols all day long, but when i put my 1911 in my hand, it just feels soooooo dam good. :aok
teaser....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/P4020205_zps48340ae0.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/P4020205_zps48340ae0.jpg.html)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/P4020202_zps752d6d1c.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/P4020202_zps752d6d1c.jpg.html)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/P4020200_zps07b09b00.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/P4020200_zps07b09b00.jpg.html)
Cap I have the same , mine is R1 carry model. I also have another 1911 Colt. I would have no other for home defense then these two weapons for same reason you stated.
They knock down.
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Lots of folks like top tout the 45 as the be all and end all of handgun calibers, usually pointing and degrading other calibers. The simple fact is that the real world stats, not ballistics tests, tell a different story. The 9 and 38 are very close in performance in one shot stops when the results of real world shootings are tabulated and morgue info is totalled up. The .357 mag is even better than the 45 even though it is the same diameter as the 9 / 38. The new slugs that have been developed has made a world of difference in performance compared the old ball or even solid lead slug we used to use in the 60's. There is no "manliness" to it, just the way things are. Handguns are lousy manstoppers and it takes a rifle or a shotgun at close range to really do the job.
The argument will live on irregardless of the facts since handguns / caibers are a point of subjective opinion for many who only have range experiance to base it on.
The key factor in any fight is shot placement. A center punch to the forhead with a 22 LR is far far better than a periferal hit with a 500 S&W. Shoot what you can hit with, not what some wag on a forum touts as the solution to all problems.
The OP has a restriction he has to deal with so caliber debate is moot.
i was being more sarcastic than anything with my comments about caliber. i've got both 9, and 45. i greatly enjoy shooting them both. my carry gun is a ruger sr9c. it's nice and compact, and i can conceal it rather easily.
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Unfortunately pump action shotguns are restricted, as are self loading rifles etc otherwise to be honest I'd probably already have one, and or probably some type of AR-15.
AFAIK lever action shotguns, like Winchester Model 1887 and its reicarnations (Norinco/Chiappa 1887) are not restricted. Aussi lawmakers did not see "Terminator2" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMzsDsYtnFc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMzsDsYtnFc)
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TimRas! It's a lightyear since I last saw your name here! :salute
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Hello Bizman.
And apologies to Grendel.
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Pic of mine but not a good one . Gun just like Well Smith used in that zombie movie , can't remember the name .
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y313/LittleGeorgeJr/Picture048_zpsbdd43323.jpg) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/LittleGeorgeJr/media/Picture048_zpsbdd43323.jpg.html)
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Rich if your ever in PA and want to shoot my 38super....offer is out there...shoot me a note if your commin out this way
Thank you. I'd love to.
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Pic of mine but not a good one . Gun just like Well Smith used in that zombie movie , can't remember the name .
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y313/LittleGeorgeJr/Picture048_zpsbdd43323.jpg) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/LittleGeorgeJr/media/Picture048_zpsbdd43323.jpg.html)
I like your style. :)
I have a couple of those. They're tanks. :rock
A 1006 and 5906. Everybody that shoots them loves how they feel.
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I like your style. :)
I have a couple of those. They're tanks. :rock
A 1006 and 5906. Everybody that shoots them loves how they feel.
Thanks katanaso , your right they are sure tanks . I had a Browning 9mm first all most just like the S&W 9mm but I like the S&W better .
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I think I said earlier in the thread that I have a 1006 as well. I had two but traded one. I picked the one I kept up for 400$ Canadian at a show back in 2000. Very well built Smith, it was one of my favorites back then, I used to reload some pretty ridic high velocity 10mm rounds for it as well. I probably only have about 5k through it tops, but it hasn't had any parts failures, and few if any stoppages that I can recall. It's been a long time since I've shot it, but it still looks about 95%, and still points and feels as well as it ever did.
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1911s are one of the best if not the best firearm you can buy. Don't ruin it by buying the 9mm unless you have shot the 45 and prefer the 9 for some reason. I have many 9mm`s including my favorite CC, but my 1911 is a .45 the way God and Colt meant them to be.
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I carry a Kimber Pro Carry 1911 in .45 ACP because I was trained on the Colt .45 ACP 1911 when I was in service, and thus, the 1911 is second nature to me in it's operation; the fact that the 1911 design fits my hand well is also a large consideration for my choice of a carry weapon.
As for caliber, well, this issue has been hashed and re-hashed ad infinitum for decades, and I agree with Maverick...
The argument will live on irregardless of the facts since handguns / caibers are a point of subjective opinion for many who only have range experiance to base it on.
The key factor in any fight is shot placement. A center punch to the forhead with a 22 LR is far far better than a periferal hit with a 500 S&W. Shoot what you can hit with, not what some wag on a forum touts as the solution to all problems.
...and it is the reason I also carry a .22 Magnum S&W Airlite as a back-up!
You can argue ballistics until you are blue in the face about how well one caliber performs against another, but when all is said and done in a fight, it all comes down to where you placed your round while you were under extreme pressure, adrenaline was coursing through your veins, your heartbeat was highly elevated, and your hands were shaking! I once read a Police Coroner's ballistic study on wounds in which he stated that hollow point rounds didn't perform as well as regular ball ammunition because clothing tended to clog the hollow point and did not allow the hollow point to perform as advertised. Again! It is subjective and really is all about shot placement.
Personally, I love the 1911 design because it fits my hand well and I have been well trained on its operation. I also love my S&W Model 19 in .357 Magnum, but it doesn't hide as well as my Kimber.
One last caution about 1911's, and for that matter, any auto-loading firearm; once you jack a round into the chamber, you always have a round in the chamber! Always, always, always assume that there is a round in the chamber! A common mistake made by people who are unfamiliar with auto-loading firearms is to remove the magazine and forget that they previously had jacked a round into the chamber and by simply removing the magazine, they thought the gun was safe! No auto-loading firearm is safe until you have removed the magazine and locked the slide, or bolt, to the rear and can visually verify that there is no round in the chamber!
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Patches, in years past I would very much agree that HP's were problematic, especially in the wintertime when folks wear heavier coats and such. With todays ammunition, that has changed, especially with the new Hornady crtical defense / duty ammo. Using a small soft filler in the hp seems to have taken care of the packing that cloth did. Newer designs in the jackets have also made significant gains in reliability than when it was just a copper cup filled with a lead slug, hp or not.
Pistol velocities were pretty slow to open up the older hp designs. If you could get the slug over1800 to 2000 fps it was a whole new ball game. The new slugs are a great shift in performance.
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I think I said earlier in the thread that I have a 1006 as well. I had two but traded one. I picked the one I kept up for 400$ Canadian at a show back in 2000. Very well built Smith, it was one of my favorites back then, I used to reload some pretty ridic high velocity 10mm rounds for it as well. I probably only have about 5k through it tops, but it hasn't had any parts failures, and few if any stoppages that I can recall. It's been a long time since I've shot it, but it still looks about 95%, and still points and feels as well as it ever did.
You got a pic ?
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Thanks for the information, Maverick, I'll take a look into the newer ammunition. :-)
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Patches, in years past I would very much agree that HP's were problematic, especially in the wintertime when folks wear heavier coats and such. With todays ammunition, that has changed, especially with the new Hornady crtical defense / duty ammo. Using a small soft filler in the hp seems to have taken care of the packing that cloth did. Newer designs in the jackets have also made significant gains in reliability than when it was just a copper cup filled with a lead slug, hp or not.
Pistol velocities were pretty slow to open up the older hp designs. If you could get the slug over1800 to 2000 fps it was a whole new ball game. The new slugs are a great shift in performance.
highlighted part...it also gets you around stupid laws where hollowpoints are bastardized.....couighpfrnjco ughcough
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I carry a Kimber Pro Carry 1911 in .45 ACP because I was trained on the Colt .45 ACP 1911 when I was in service, and thus, the 1911 is second nature to me in it's operation; the fact that the 1911 design fits my hand well is also a large consideration for my choice of a carry weapon.
As for caliber, well, this issue has been hashed and re-hashed ad infinitum for decades, and I agree with Maverick...
...and it is the reason I also carry a .22 Magnum S&W Airlite as a back-up!
You can argue ballistics until you are blue in the face about how well one caliber performs against another, but when all is said and done in a fight, it all comes down to where you placed your round while you were under extreme pressure, adrenaline was coursing through your veins, your heartbeat was highly elevated, and your hands were shaking! I once read a Police Coroner's ballistic study on wounds in which he stated that hollow point rounds didn't perform as well as regular ball ammunition because clothing tended to clog the hollow point and did not allow the hollow point to perform as advertised. Again! It is subjective and really is all about shot placement.
Personally, I love the 1911 design because it fits my hand well and I have been well trained on its operation. I also love my S&W Model 19 in .357 Magnum, but it doesn't hide as well as my Kimber.
One last caution about 1911's, and for that matter, any auto-loading firearm; once you jack a round into the chamber, you always have a round in the chamber! Always, always, always assume that there is a round in the chamber! A common mistake made by people who are unfamiliar with auto-loading firearms is to remove the magazine and forget that they previously had jacked a round into the chamber and by simply removing the magazine, they thought the gun was safe! No auto-loading firearm is safe until you have removed the magazine and locked the slide, or bolt, to the rear and can visually verify that there is no round in the chamber!
only one correction if i may?
there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, unless it is fully disassembled. if it's a complete firearm, i treat it as if it's loaded....even after locking the slide back, and verifying empty chamber. i just can't make myself do it any other way.
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I would also add that doing a physical contact check of the chamber with your pinky or other finger is an important technique to use, every time, regardless of lighting conditions. The point is to train yourself through repetition to always do it, every time. The reason for this is there may be times where you need to clear a weapon, or even just check to see if it is loaded/unloaded in low light conditions. I realize it may look odd doing it in a well lit environment, but again, it's just a matter of simplicity and repetition to do it the same way every single time. It's always the last thing I do in my check, after the visual inspection once the firearm has been cleared and the action locked open.
Also, all of the major 4 safety regs play their part in safety. Checking to ensure a firearm is unloaded before handling it in a non shooting environment/situation IS important, but equally important is muzzle control discipline as well as finger off the trigger and pressed with some reasonable force above and outside the trigger guard. I see many, many, many cases on the net, on TV shooting shows, and at the range, where people clear their firearms, then proceed to sweep everything and everyone in sight with the muzzle, and the same goes with the ol buggar picker on the trigger. I can usually tell if somebody is professional and trustworthy around firearms within a few seconds of observing the way they move with them, particularly when unloading/checking and then doing some sort of demonstration directly afterwards. If they move the firearm's muzzle around other people and their own bodies, always keeping it pointed in a place where it wouldn't harm any human or launch rounds far downrange out of sight, as well as keeping good fire control finger discipline - I then will relax, at least a little, and listen to what they're saying/teaching as opposed to cringing then opening my yap to tell them they are being unsafe.
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Only time I ever unload my firearm's is when I go onto the range . All other time's they stay loaded . It's a good idea to check the barrel I learned the hard way with a shotgun . It got mud in the end of the barrel and I did not see it and blue the hole end off of it , lol .