Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Someguy63 on August 17, 2014, 01:46:28 AM
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What do you P38 tards suggest setting convergences to in this plane? :headscratch:
:)
:salute
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I have tried numerous setting on the 38 from short to the very long. It really doesn't matter as long as you stick to one setting. I found what suits me best is a match to about the same setting I use for the 47. In other words i try to make the shooting range the same for all the planes I fly so I change planes with not much change in shooting.
I set the 50s to 300 and the canon to 325. No magic in these setting.
As a side point it is a nice advantage to have separate trigger functions for the 50's. Not essential just nice. You can use the 50s to start strong pinging a plane faster than the 38 as an example to get them to turn at 1000 with ease.
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I read, on bbs?, on birds with nose guns, convergence doesn't matter. Is that right or wrong?
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I read, on bbs?, on birds with nose guns, convergence doesn't matter. Is that right or wrong?
The bullet drop changes, so you have to aim above or below, depending on your convergence and how far away the bandit is.
I use a convergence of 200, so that I'm aiming above the target as the plane gets further away.
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I read, on bbs?, on birds with nose guns, convergence doesn't matter. Is that right or wrong?
Doesn't matter near as much might be a better way to put it since the convergence point does not have a big angle like wing mounted guns.
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I've always had them at 650.
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I have mine set to 400 since my aim sucks... :(
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P-38 seems like a special plane. For my 109s (another nose mounted plane) I have to set the guns to 300 (my preferred setting) since the bullet ballistics are different. On the P-38 though I don't really feel that difference. I don't know if the 50's and 20mm have a similar ballistic pattern or what it is but the guns seem to fire pretty straight and accurate.
I set mine to 450, both the 50's and 20mm. Seems to work for me pretty well.
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Quite the variation of responses in this thread...so I'm guessing I'd better find what works best for me..
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It's B38, forget guns, use it to bomb things :old:
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It's B38, forget guns, use it to bomb things :old:
:lol
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all guns in the nose = 650
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The bullet drop changes, so you have to aim above or below, depending on your convergence and how far away the bandit is.
I use a convergence of 200, so that I'm aiming above the target as the plane gets further away.
Same here......
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Quite the variation of responses in this thread...so I'm guessing I'd better find what works best for me..
There you go. The exact right answer.
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There you go. The exact right answer.
Yep. Figure out what works best for you. There is no magic convergence.
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What do you P38 tards suggest setting convergences to in this plane? :headscratch:
:)
:salute
Since it's nose mounted guns, it's largely a matter of personal preference in what you think works best for you. Personally, I've left my convergence at default and it's worked great for me.
ack-ack
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Quite the variation of responses in this thread...so I'm guessing I'd better find what works best for me..
Yes, this is your best bet. But I will throw my experience in here, for what it's worth. (Not even two cents. I only hear one penny dropping)
I fly the P38L almost exclusively. When I started, I set the convergence all the way out. All the guns are in the nose, no need for convergence, right? Anyway, I read some posts about how the convergence setting affects the bullet drop over distance. So I went into offline practice, and used the .target function to see for myself.
To make a long story short (I know, too late) I found that setting the convergence to 300 kept the bullets mostly centered in my gun sight all the way out. Any other setting had the bullets drifting high or low at different distance.
As we've already said, your mileage may vary. Find out what works best for you.
Of course, even with all this work, I'm still a lousy shot. :bhead
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I fly the P38L almost exclusively. When I started, I set the convergence all the way out. All the guns are in the nose, no need for convergence, right? Anyway, I read some posts about how the convergence setting affects the bullet drop over distance. So I went into offline practice, and used the .target function to see for myself.
Convergence doesn't actually affect "bullet drop" per se (if you define bullet drop as the effect of gravity and drag/air-density), but convergence DOES change how the guns are angled upward in order to converge at the pipper at your set convergence distance, which in turn does affect the ballistic arc. The reason this is important to understand is your convergence does affect your vertical aim point to some extent (even with nose mounted guns) at different distances. You are correct that setting them at 300 will give you kind of a "middle ground", but you will still need to adjust your aim slightly, firing a little lower when in very close and a little higher when your target is further out.
I just tested this in the TA using a P38J and below are screen shots of my results. What is interesting to note is that when using the LONGEST convergence setting (650 yards) you get a very small vertical separation even when shooting well inside your convergence range (at 200 yards).
You can see when shooting a target at 200 yards with a 650 yard convergence (1st picture, left side), the vertical separation is not that great (only 1-2 feet above the aim point). On the other hand, when running a 200 yard convergence and firing at a target of 650 yards (2nd picture, left side), the vertical separation at distance is much greater (6-8 feet below the aim point), and in addition you start to see a 2-3 foot separation in the bullet patterns of the 20mm and 50cals.
Based on this information, if you're not sure the distance you tend to shoot at (which should be a primary factor in choosing a convergence), then for a beginner, I would actually recommend using the maximum convergence distance in the P38 of 650 yards, because this setting requires less vertical adjustment of the aiming point at various ranges and keeps the bullet streams of both the cannon and 50 cals closer together over a greater range. This advice applies ONLY to the P38, as longer convergence distances in other aircraft, especially those with wing-mounted guns, has other greater ramifications.
In the following screen shots, the distances of the targets is noted in the upper left. The pipper was always placed precisely on the horizontal line. The bullet patterns are 150 rounds of 20mm and 250 rounds of 50 cal fired in short bursts. Here you can see how the aim point will vary based on range and convergence setting:
(http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh599/Rhino551988/38J_conv_200v650_target200_zpsea56b00f.jpg)
(http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh599/Rhino551988/0cefc5a2-e899-403c-bab5-c0e338d40cff_zps4d054582.jpg)
Another valuable (but unrelated) thing to note is the relative size of the bullet dispersion patterns. At 650 yards the bullet dispersion is over 20 feet wide (even when running a 650 convergence), whereas at 200 yards the bullet dispersion is less than 10 feet. Point being, more bullets hit when you shoot in close -- one reason why it's always better to shoot at close range.
Hope this is helpful.
<S>
Ryno
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cannon 650
MG 600
LtngRydr
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If you over shoot targets high, a lower convergence 250 to 350 will help.
If you undershoot targets low, a higher convergence 450 to 650 will help.
If you aim around the middle of the target use 375 to 425
You can really notice the way convergence in nose mounted (or really any) planes works by watching how they act during a lead shot.
If you find yourself over leading planes more often than not, you will want to use the lower convergence.
If you find yourself underleading targets and don't get the nose far enough out, use the higher convergence.
A lower convergence will make the bullets drop a lot more quickly in a lead turn.
A higher convergence will make the bullets soar rather than drop.
Planes don't always fly straight. And the majority of your shots will be lead shots. So really pay attention to your lead shots and if you over or under lead generally. Once you find this out, you can choose convergence in the lower or higher or middle slots and you'll drastically see your aim improve.
I tend to set all my bullets in each plane to the same convergence in hopes that if I hit them all my bullets will hit and not just one set. Idk how well that works though, it's hard tell.
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If you over shoot targets high, a lower convergence 250 to 350 will help.
If you undershoot targets low, a higher convergence 450 to 650 will help.
If you aim around the middle of the target use 375 to 425
You can really notice the way convergence in nose mounted (or really any) planes works by watching how they act during a lead shot.
If you find yourself over leading planes more often than not, you will want to use the lower convergence.
If you find yourself underleading targets and don't get the nose far enough out, use the higher convergence.
A lower convergence will make the bullets drop a lot more quickly in a lead turn.
A higher convergence will make the bullets soar rather than drop.
Planes don't always fly straight. And the majority of your shots will be lead shots. So really pay attention to your lead shots and if you over or under lead generally. Once you find this out, you can choose convergence in the lower or higher or middle slots and you'll drastically see your aim improve.
I tend to set all my bullets in each plane to the same convergence in hopes that if I hit them all my bullets will hit and not just one set. Idk how well that works though, it's hard tell.
Yup I remember you telling me this when I needed help with the tater…so I would have to find out exactly how I do with nose mounted 50's since I rarely fly the P38.
Edit :As a quick guess I'd say I would most likely over lead since I'm so used to using taters.
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Yup I remember you telling me this when I needed help with the tater…so I would have to find out exactly how I do with nose mounted 50's since I rarely fly the P38.
Edit :As a quick guess I'd say I would most likely over lead since I'm so used to using taters.
I'd recommend 400.
50 cals are light so they will fly quickly but they will also curve back pretty fast in a lead shot. So with 400 you could see in medium level where you typically shoot during a lead. Then you could make adjustments. I had mine in the 1A accidently set at 250 because I forgot to set them. My aim was horrendous for a min, knew it was my convergence because I typically aim low anyway. Setting them to 400 allowed me to see the bullets easier when I made lead shots and it works for me well in most cases.
If you are one to make super quick close range snap shots in a non nose mounted plane, I'd set convergence to 300. But if you are a sprey and preyer from 400 who takes shots but doesn't like to follow enimies in a turn, and don't typically make slash style quick low E snap shots. You should be in the higher convergence level.
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I'd recommend 400.
50 cals are light so they will fly quickly but they will also curve back pretty fast in a lead shot. So with 400 you could see in medium level where you typically shoot during a lead. Then you could make adjustments. I had mine in the 1A accidently set at 250 because I forgot to set them. My aim was horrendous for a min, knew it was my convergence because I typically aim low anyway. Setting them to 400 allowed me to see the bullets easier when I made lead shots and it works for me well in most cases.
If you are one to make super quick close range snap shots in a non nose mounted plane, I'd set convergence to 300. But if you are a sprey and preyer from 400 who takes shots but doesn't like to follow enimies in a turn, and don't typically make slash style quick low E snap shots. You should be in the higher convergence level.
Ok so then I'm gonna put the guns at 300, since in non nose mounted planes like the P51 I like to get close and make quick kill shots, I never like making long distance shots.
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That will probably be good. Ohh and make sure to hold the trigger down longer. Us 109 guys like to make super quick shots while using less ammo. But the 50cals don't do as much damage so make sure you drill them by holding the trigger down for a second longer
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I like to get close and make quick kill shots, I never like making long distance shots.
There's the answer to your question right there! YOUR convergence should be set to the range at which YOU tend to do most of your shooting.
I feel effective gunnery is much more about consistently flying to the shot you want (and know how to take) with the settings you have, rather than using the convergence to adjust for something, as that can really be a chasing-your-tail type exercise.
<S>
Ryno
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50 cals are light so they will fly quickly but they will also curve back pretty fast in a lead shot.
That is an illusion. As you bank to pull lead you are increasing G along with your drop at 1000ft increases. Every time you fire a round it travels in a line out from the barrel of the gun curving downwards to the center of the earth in response to G force and other factors. You and your con both fly away from that isolated round as it curves on down towards the ground. Does not matter how many rounds your gun fires in a minute. Each is an unrelated firing with each round describing a generally straight path out from the mussel while arching down in response to G forces.
As you turn your wings are banked, and the curving back illusion is because you are banked and can see a small slice of the round curving down toward to the earth. Part of why when you swing a hose in a circle it looks like your water is curving back from the nozzle.
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From AAF Manual 200-1
alt 15,000ft, range 1000ft(333yd), 1G gravity, speed 300
Bullet drop
50 cal - 21in
20mm - 20in
For the P38 under G load in a 60 degree banked turn. The combined 5 gun 4Mil dispersion cone at 1000ft drop.
2G - 6.4ft
3G - 13ft
4G - 19.4ft
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With in 1 or 2 feet all 50 cal and Hisso based 20mm mountings will describe the above under the same conditions.
Lots of curving going on here but, only towards the center of the planet. One of the reasons the NAVY Mk8 reticle has the 45 degree down ward rays. Even the AAF N9 has cuts in the ring at 45 degrees. And why pulling more than 2G lead gets problematical in our game.
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The illusion you see if your tracers are turned on will be like taking your garden hose and swinging it in an arc. The stream of water will look like it is bending behind you as the water rushes out. On the ground though it will create an arc of wet as a definition of the water falling to the ground in response to gravity. Like when you fire the 50cal from the M3 in a burst while swing the barrel to follow something. The result looks like a curved stream of tracers with individual round impacts following behind the stream.
Your brain will try to help you make sense out of all the tracers by connecting the dots in an illusion of your machine gun fire being connected as a cord of lights curving behind you. Vilolator's comment about 50cals are so light and curve behind you. Each dot is an individual round describing it's individual straight line outward and curving down in response to gravity. Since you have so many rounds with tracers burning behind them, it looks like the stream from a hose but, as lights curving behind the turning nose of your fighter.
That's why fighter pilots were taught to not aim with their tracers. Instead, to aim with the reticle of their gunsight which describes your guns harmonization to some point in front of you.
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There's the answer to your question right there! YOUR convergence should be set to the range at which YOU tend to do most of your shooting.
I feel effective gunnery is much more about consistently flying to the shot you want (and know how to take) with the settings you have, rather than using the convergence to adjust for something, as that can really be a chasing-your-tail type exercise.
<S>
Ryno
:cheers:
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I have been known to fly the 38 sometimes and i use Default setting