Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on September 03, 2014, 09:10:57 PM
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Preface
Strategic raiders tend to come in at very high altitudes. Because unlike with tactical (base) attacks, it totally pays off to spend that much time for a climbout because
- There's no dynamic battle situation to account for
- Three hours of object downtime doesn't mean your 1 hour of climbing is wasted for killing something that's back up in 15 minutes.
This faces the defender with a real challenge, especially as with the new dispersed strats and a strat raider is not easily to spot any more.
The question is: What is the closest distance the incoming bomber can have for an interceptor to take of with still at least a minimum chance of engaging successfully?
The setting:
Interceptor:
Assumes taking one of the best planes for the job in terms of climb rate, speed, and firepower: The Ta 152H with 100% fuel
The interceptor takes time to get to altitude, to get up to a reasonable combat speed (400mph) and needs time to combat the bombers. The latter one I set to an arbitrary 5 minutes, though in the case of 30k+ bombers this is an extremely short timespan with little chance to kill all three bombers.
Bombers:
Assumes three very typical cases:
Lancaster at 20k
B-24 at 25k
B-17 at 34k (maximum loaded altitude and much more prevalent than some might think)
B-29 at 30K and 34K as well.
I tested the bombers combat speeds with bombs, as well as the climbing time of the Ta 152H (Full initial WEP) to the respective altitudes.
I spare you the details and jump directly to
the results:
Bomber min. distance
Lancaster 61 miles
B-24 75 miles
B-29 at 30k
& B-17 @ 34K 110 miles
B-29 @ 34k 140 miles
I have to emphasize again that especially with the very high altitude bombers, these are the bare minimum distances, only very few fighter pilots will actually have a chance to get the job done before the bombs are falling.
To show what these distances mean on a map, I visualised them on the current map, Fester (mainly just because I had the graphics up anyway). But you can easily transfer this to most other maps in rotation. Just think of NDsisles with the factories being right on the frontlines!
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/interceptfester_zpsa1aac613.jpg)
The range circles were centered on City and on the AA factory.
As you can see, the high alt minimum distance circles are already extending past the front lines. Which means what you thought to be the darbar of some Jabos or bombers doing attacks on some nearby bases may actually turn out to be city raiders.
Unless they fly in "carelessly" low or are unlucky, most shot down strat raiders die only logn after they dropped their bombs.
The only reasonable solution for that dilemma: Flying cap over the strats.
But the relatively small population during much of the day, dispersion of the strats and most importantly the fact that it takes only one buff in three hours to have alasting effect makes it not a very realistic option - because it very well might include 1-2 hours of uneventful crusing up& down.
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The only problem with strat targets is other then dar. They have no meaningful effect on the game and as such thus provide little reason to defend them.
Hell more then half the time people barely up to do anything about HQ getting hit until after its been hit to resupply it. When was the last time you heard a call out "Raid on the ammo factory!!!"
I dont think I've ever seen such an urgent message
The little time I spend in bombers I've hit strats and typically dont encounter any resistance until after I've dropped and am on my way home and then its usually only 1 or two planes.
Be better off stealing a page from AW and include factories that if destroyed deny a popular weapon platform for even a limited amount of time such as they had with the spit factory. People whined when it was hit yes. But they also typically tried to defend it even though spits were only disabled for something like 20 min.
It had a real but limited impact on the game that people found a need to protect.
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They have no meaningful effect on the game and as such thus provide little reason to defend them.
Increasing downtimes of ack or ords from 30 to up to 150 minutes is "no meanignful effect?"
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Increasing downtimes of ack or ords from 30 to up to 150 minutes is "no meanignful effect?"
:rolleyes:
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:rolleyes:
:headscratch:
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:banana:
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Still a better lovestory than twilight...
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:rolleyes:
:headscratch:
:banana:
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smileys/Emoticon_chainsaw.gif~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/smileys/Emoticon_chainsaw.gif.html) (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smileys/scared.gif~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/smileys/scared.gif.html)
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What would the ring for the Mossie XVI and Ar234 look like?
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What would the ring for the Mossie XVI and Ar234 look like?
For a 25K mossie with 1x4k internal about 34% larger than for a B-24 at same altitude... almost 100 miles
30k Mossie: A tad larger than the 30k B-29 circle
For a 20k Arado, assuming the Ta would have to climb to 25k for some additional dive speed... slightly over 100 miles
All this, like the inital examples, are pretty much under ideal conditions with the fighetr havign a good idea what to expect, and where.
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The only problem with strat targets is other then dar. They have no meaningful effect on the game and as such thus provide little reason to defend them.
Hell more then half the time people barely up to do anything about HQ getting hit until after its been hit to resupply it. When was the last time you heard a call out "Raid on the ammo factory!!!"
I dont think I've ever seen such an urgent message
The little time I spend in bombers I've hit strats and typically dont encounter any resistance until after I've dropped and am on my way home and then its usually only 1 or two planes.
Be better off stealing a page from AW and include factories that if destroyed deny a popular weapon platform for even a limited amount of time such as they had with the spit factory. People whined when it was hit yes. But they also typically tried to defend it even though spits were only disabled for something like 20 min.
It had a real but limited impact on the game that people found a need to protect.
Wow. I really don't understand this response at all. What did I read incorrectly?
Lusche gave clearly presented irrefutable data demonstrating that it is physically impossible to intercept bombers before they take out the strats and your response is "we need to make the pain worse so people try harder"? How will "trying harder" overcome physically impossible? Do you also feel that the worlds energy problems can be solved if people just didn't give up so easily on perpetual motion machines?
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This is one of the reasons I miss the old strat system, both as a bomber and interceptor. As a bomber you had the additional challenge of flying through more ack, and a higher chance of running into someone. In maps like Fester's it's rare to see an upper unless you're crossing multiple radar rings, and even then most of the time you still get to drop your bombs. Also, with the centralized strats there's a higher risk but also a higher reward, like hitting city + AAA in a single sortie, the classic base taking combo.
From an interceptor's position centralized strats let you patrol a few sectors knowing that the most probable approaches are from one or two diections, so you have a chance to intercept the buffs. Also, The patrol zone isn't spread across hundreds of miles. For example, in Fester's map you could be patrolling AAA, but if someone hits city there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
One of my favorite tactics is flying NOE in Lancasters to HQ, popping barely a sector away and wep climbing before the drop. Such a trip is possible on HQ or city, but in the centralized strats it was pretty much impossible since the ack tears you apart.
And It's quite obvious that the most important factory (AAA) in the current map is always much, much closer to one country than the others. If we're not going back to centralized strats at least it could be put in line with city and HQ but further away, to the current distance from the edge of the map.
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Increasing downtimes of ack or ords from 30 to up to 150 minutes is "no meanignful effect?"
None that anyone cares about. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. But do You see many people rushing to defend those targets? I dont
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if they just add alt. and speed information to dar contacts that will solve all the problem...
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Wow. I really don't understand this response at all. What did I read incorrectly?
Lusche gave clearly presented irrefutable data demonstrating that it is physically impossible to intercept bombers before they take out the strats and your response is "we need to make the pain worse so people try harder"? How will "trying harder" overcome physically impossible? Do you also feel that the worlds energy problems can be solved if people just didn't give up so easily on perpetual motion machines?
And Im saying that people in general dont bother even trying to stop them.
Most of the strat raiders I see lately come in at around 20K unless its a really large mission. An alt I routinely see fighters at
Personally I'd like to see more of a chain of supply and zone bases in a combination of the old old strat system and the newer one with the large cities we had not too long ago kind of a local and national strat. Local would be worth less but easier to hit. national would be worth more but harder to hit
As well as weapons platform factory (pick one) AKA high value targets
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I doubt HTC are going to go back to a single strat city having just got rid of it. So what else could be done to rebalance the game?
Real radar's range increases with altitude and also for larger targets. So have the game generate a greatly increased radar dot radius for bomber formations, either all the time or for formations over a certain alt.
Hopefully we will get large cloud formations back in the MA in the new version. If so it might be possible to arrange a 50% chance of cloud cover over each strat at say 15K. Higher bombers would then be forced to try an alternate strat or make a second pass when it has cleared.
More vicious or variable high alt wind shear effects could be introduced that make very high alt bombing really inaccurate and so forces bombers down to where fighters have a better chance of intercepting.
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Another solution to Lusche's point would be to make it near impossible for a single bomber formations or even a pair of formations to have any effect on strats without coming in at a lower altitude to cut the time.
Harden the target
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I doubt HTC are going to go back to a single strat city having just got rid of it. So what else could be done to rebalance the game?
Real radar's range increases with altitude and also for larger targets. So have the game generate a greatly increased radar dot radius for bomber formations, either all the time or for formations over a certain alt.
Hopefully we will get large cloud formations back in the MA in the new version. If so it might be possible to arrange a 50% chance of cloud cover over each strat at say 15K. Higher bombers would then be forced to try an alternate strat or make a second pass when it has cleared.
More vicious or variable high alt wind shear effects could be introduced that make very high alt bombing really inaccurate and so forces bombers down to where fighters have a better chance of intercepting.
I think as per my suggestion a couple of posts ago they should do both. That is have local and national strats. National would have a more drastic effect but be both more dangerous and difficult to achieve.
Another option to encourage defending these targets might be to have some sort of medal or award system for shooting down bombers within a certain distance of a strat target. People seem to like the achievement awards and stars they get now
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. . . Hopefully we will get large cloud formations back in the MA in the new version. If so it might be possible to arrange a 50% chance of cloud cover over each strat at say 15K. Higher bombers would then be forced to try an alternate strat or make a second pass when it has cleared.
More vicious or variable high alt wind shear effects could be introduced that make very high alt bombing really inaccurate and so forces bombers down to where fighters have a better chance of intercepting.
Well done Lusche.
Greebo is on the right track. There should be a price to pay for the bombers seeking high altitude safe haven by way of bomb hitting results.
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Greebo the only problem with the radar dot solution I see is that the reason we have limited local radar now was to simulate on the ground spotters because all the bases didn't have radar in WWII. But up to about 15k the ground spotters could identify type, approximate speed and alt of the planes.
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None that anyone cares about. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. But do You see many people rushing to defend those targets? I dont
They people that do not care about the strats should not care about strats. Those that just want to fight and do not care about wining the map should not be forced to defend the strats. What we are discussing here is how can someone who wants to defend the strats do it - currently he often simply can't.
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I want guys hitting strats & HQ. I want them to have a decent chance at being successful. I just don't want the results of successful strat & HQ raids to be so hard to undo that people log off. Later at night 5 people logging off makes a big dent in action. Bombing strats, intercepting strat bombers, escorting strat bombers, resupping strats, killing guys who are resupping strats, escorting resuppliers is all good stuff. Long down times with no reasonable way to undo it is not.
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Bombers:
Assumes three very typical cases:
Lancaster at 20k
B-24 at 25k
B-17 at 34k (maximum loaded altitude and much more prevalent than some might think)
B-29 at 30K and 34K as well.
I tested the bombers combat speeds with bombs, as well as the climbing time of the Ta 152H (Full initial WEP) to the respective altitudes.
I spare you the details and jump directly to
the results:
Bomber min. distance
Lancaster 61 miles
B-24 75 miles
B-29 at 30k
& B-17 @ 34K 110 miles
B-29 @ 34k 140 miles
I have to emphasize again that especially with the very high altitude bombers, these are the bare minimum distances, only very few fighter pilots will actually have a chance to get the job done before the bombs are falling.
Nice post Lusche but it omits one thing.
Back in the day when I flew strat missions against the dispersed factories, I would make several passes plinking targets to make sure I dropped the whole factory. If I took a squadmate, we would kill (< 10%) more then one factory.
Back then, people knew you'd be sticking around to make multiple runs and we always had interceptors come up for extra fun.
Admittedly I haven't flown the MA in a couple of years, so maybe things are different now.
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I doubt HTC are going to go back to a single strat city having just got rid of it. So what else could be done to rebalance the game?
Real radar's range increases with altitude and also for larger targets. So have the game generate a greatly increased radar dot radius for bomber formations, either all the time or for formations over a certain alt.
Hopefully we will get large cloud formations back in the MA in the new version. If so it might be possible to arrange a 50% chance of cloud cover over each strat at say 15K. Higher bombers would then be forced to try an alternate strat or make a second pass when it has cleared.
More vicious or variable high alt wind shear effects could be introduced that make very high alt bombing really inaccurate and so forces bombers down to where fighters have a better chance of intercepting.
I love going after strats. I love it even more when there is a substantial degree of difficulty (interception, cloud cover, drift, etc..) What's a bomber mission without a fight? Boring... incredibly boring. The uncertainty of success, the fight, and the "fog of war" is the attraction.
The fighter guys love it, too. The escorts have something to protect, and the interceptors have an enemy mission to disrupt and destroy. Makes for great fun.
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Admittedly I haven't flown the MA in a couple of years, so maybe things are different now.
If you had flown against the dispersed strats several years ago, it had been the old zone strats. And yes, things had been very different at that time. A factory has now a massive prolonged effect on objects all over a country and are themselves down for a much longer times (3h).
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Lusche, great post sir, thank you.
I do have a question. How many of the group of 3 buffs do I have to kill to diminish their impact on closing the HQ. Assuming it is just one set of 3 and the HQ has not been previously hit.
I do love hunting buffs and it has been more difficult with the dispersed strats. First, to be successful, what you need is patience. Only then can you work on the actual intercept and defense. It is a chess match at time, with some of the pieces hidden. I thank all you buff drivers who also have the patience to climb enough to insure at least the possibility of success. Your patience is greater than mine because you must remain focused on what is most likely just one objective, one target. I have the luxury of being able to intercept anything that "strays" into my airspace. You can't cover the whole map as an interceptor, but you can "stake out" some territory and defend that airspace.
Sometimes that makes me feel like I am a Spider with a 50 mile web, if you tickle the strings, the spider comes running :)
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I do have a question. How many of the group of 3 buffs do I have to kill to diminish their impact on closing the HQ. Assuming it is just one set of 3 and the HQ has not been previously hit.
If they are Lancs, 1 bomber.
In case of B-29s: Even after killing a drone the two remaining B-29 can, in theory, have enough raw destructive power to kill the HQ (2x40x500lb bombs =44,000lb of damage). But I don't know if that's practically possible at all (bomb dispersion, great distance between lead bomber & drone).
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Thanks Lusche. Excellent information.
Kill 1 buff of 3 unless it is B29's and you have saved your HQ. The task of defense is not quite as daunting if you understand this.
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They people that do not care about the strats should not care about strats. Those that just want to fight and do not care about wining the map should not be forced to defend the strats. What we are discussing here is how can someone who wants to defend the strats do it - currently he often simply can't.
I very much agree with this post.
I never would want a strategic target meaningful enough so everybody would have to defend them at all cost. I have always liked the sandbox approach of the MA, with the players abillity to play the game on so manny diferent ways & levels at the same time.
The MA should provide the players with the abilty to fly massive long range missions with a purpose, just goof around in furballs, enjoing themselves in tank combat or organize combined offensives.
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Thanks Lusche. Excellent information.
Kill 1 buff of 3 unless it is B29's and you have saved your HQ. The task of defense is not quite as daunting if you understand this.
Actually this thread was not about the HQ, but more about the other strats. HQ is a different topic with a different dynamic and conditions.
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I defend HQ and strats a lot, for quite a while with my machine that was all I could do as my frame rate was so low but now I know just how far they have to be away before I have a chance at them, THANKS VERY MUCH
SALUTE
ab8aac/dmdchief
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Actually this thread was not about the HQ, but more about the other strats. HQ is a different topic with a different dynamic and conditions.
Gotcha. Sorry, i was not trying to hijack your post, I've always considered the HQ as part of the strats, i.e. "Targets of Strategic Value"
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There was a reason that the British invested heavily in large coastal radar stations - they needed the warning time to make interception possible. The same thing goes here - we need real dar coverage - large strategic radars that can show something is coming from a long way off. Our radar ranges here are laughable.
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There was a reason that the British invested heavily in large coastal radar stations - they needed the warning time to make interception possible. The same thing goes here - we need real dar coverage - large strategic radars that can show something is coming from a long way off. Our radar ranges here are laughable.
Dot dar everywhere is not a good idea for the rest of the game. Perhaps a half-way solution is to have a long range radar at the strats that detects planes at over say 20k. This will not affect the tactical war, but will highlight possible high alt bombers. Give the high alt dar a different color to its dots. Make it destructible.
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Dot dar everywhere is not a good idea for the rest of the game. Perhaps a half-way solution is to have a long range radar at the strats that detects planes at over say 20k. This will not affect the tactical war, but will highlight possible high alt bombers. Give the high alt dar a different color to its dots. Make it destructible.
I respectfully disagree.
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Dot dar everywhere is not a good idea for the rest of the game. Perhaps a half-way solution is to have a long range radar at the strats that detects planes at over say 20k. This will not affect the tactical war, but will highlight possible high alt bombers. Give the high alt dar a different color to its dots. Make it destructible.
While I disagree with the high alt indicator, I do believe a long range radar at HQ would be better so it can be effectively defended.
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There was a reason that the British invested heavily in large coastal radar stations - they needed the warning time to make interception possible. The same thing goes here - we need real dar coverage - large strategic radars that can show something is coming from a long way off. Our radar ranges here are laughable.
I'd at least like a chance at completing my objective using tactics and blind spots. I don't go for the "know-all, see-all" approach. I think the dar bar/dot dar system maintains a good balance. In my experience, especially on small maps, dar bar has well within our territory- right down to the launch base location(s)- made the enemy aware of something taking place. Therefore, the enemy launched not long after to determine what was needed to stop us. Worked pretty well for them on small maps because there would be times we were still slow and climbing. Once we got to alt, we would box up into the "meat grinder", and try to maintain that for the duration if we could. There were times we still got torn apart even with escorts.
So, really, I don't see the need to change a whole lot with the current system. Part of what makes a fight fun is the uncertainty of what you may face. It makes you think.
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Dot dar everywhere is not a good idea for the rest of the game. Perhaps a half-way solution is to have a long range radar at the strats that detects planes at over say 20k. This will not affect the tactical war, but will highlight possible high alt bombers. Give the high alt dar a different color to its dots. Make it destructible.
I'd agree. But how about reducing base dar range and adding radar stations in between that can be taken out just like base dar.
Or another suggestion. How about when bombers life from backward bases we get a teletype.
"G2 reports bombers lifting from A-102 destination unknown"
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I'd at least like a chance at completing my objective using tactics and blind spots. I don't go for the "know-all, see-all" approach. I think the dar bar/dot dar system maintains a good balance. In my experience, especially on small maps, dar bar has well within our territory- right down to the launch base location(s)- made the enemy aware of something taking place. Therefore, the enemy launched not long after to determine what was needed to stop us. Worked pretty well for them on small maps because there would be times we were still slow and climbing. Once we got to alt, we would box up into the "meat grinder", and try to maintain that for the duration if we could. There were times we still got torn apart even with escorts.
So, really, I don't see the need to change a whole lot with the current system. Part of what makes a fight fun is the uncertainty of what you may face. It makes you think.
I actually do defend the strats and the HQ a lot and part of the fun is trying to figure out where they are in a given sector when there is a dar bar. THE HUNT IS THE THING ! oh and wondering if I am high enough, LOL
salute
ab8aac/dmdchief
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I'd agree. But how about reducing base dar range and adding radar stations in between that can be taken out just like base dar.
Or another suggestion. How about when bombers life from backward bases we get a teletype.
"G2 reports bombers lifting from A-102 destination unknown"
No. I've already made note as I see their darbar appear at that rearward base and am keeping an eye on them as they ingress. Not just them, as it's possible I won't be intercepting for an hour, but I know they are coming. There is a lot of information to be had already with the tools we have now to use, and as I have said many times before, I'm not interested in easy. No, i don't get to see them lift if the HQ is down, but that really isn't as often as some here lament. I also, most of the time, call out on country channel for others to join in the intercept, or if you are a Knight you may at any time, PM me and ask what I see coming if you would like to check on what you might have missed. Teamwork will overcome most adversity, including when the HQ is down.
When HQ is taken out, what we should see is country channel text light up with information from individuals to supplement the lost dar information.
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Interesting discussion gents.
at the risk of looking noobish (not that i care), what about an air launch from a rear base to mitigate the interception rings detailed by Lusche. I know it's not ideal in the scope of the MA, but is it a total no-no? Is there no way of implementing without balance?
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I doubt HTC are going to go back to a single strat city having just got rid of it. So what else could be done to rebalance the game?
Real radar's range increases with altitude and also for larger targets. So have the game generate a greatly increased radar dot radius for bomber formations, either all the time or for formations over a certain alt.
Hopefully we will get large cloud formations back in the MA in the new version. If so it might be possible to arrange a 50% chance of cloud cover over each strat at say 15K. Higher bombers would then be forced to try an alternate strat or make a second pass when it has cleared.
More vicious or variable high alt wind shear effects could be introduced that make very high alt bombing really inaccurate and so forces bombers down to where fighters have a better chance of intercepting.
I still wonder why an HQ for example, responsible for the whole dar system of a country, does not have it's own "dar ring"? If you manage to spot the tiny blip the strats give when attacked and are able to scramble some rockets, you still face the problem of spotting any attacker. I repeatedly upped rockets to intercept an incoming raider, just to find out when I reached 30 k that it was a bomb-bailer driving in a set of lancs at 8 k... :rolleyes:
Spread out strats are fine by me, I sometimes like to take a 152 to 40 k, full gas and circle reading dar bars or whatever. Yet, the chance to bring down a set of determined raiders are still pretty small, as I see a succesful intercept only happening when no bombs reached target. Maybe a small dar circle like 6 miles or so would improve the situation and balance it out?
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at the risk of looking noobish (not that i care), what about an air launch from a rear base to mitigate the interception rings detailed by Lusche.
Doesn't matter. This analyis is strictly based on time. The time the interceptor (in this case a Ta-152H) takes to reach the target altitude vs the distance the bomebr covers in the same time.
It's somewhat simplified, as I didn't take into account wind speeds. But then, this wasn't meant to give the fighter an exact 'interception tool', but just to illustrate a problem he faces.
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But it's all even more difficult. We have many maps, on which crucial factories are placed at practically indefensible locations near the front. This might even be very unbalanced between the countries as well. For example SMpizza:
SMPIZZA
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/smpizza_zpsf0bfd2d4.jpg)
Ammo factory right in front of an enemy 3.5 base. The other two countries have their ords factory far more removed to the rear.
SFMA
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/sfmaaa_zps64b8100f.jpg)
Even without A35 the AA factory has no chance being defended unless you put up a constant cap.
NDSILES
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/ndislesaa_zps5640636e.jpg)
TT insures there are constantly darbars up in 9.9 and 10.9. A low/medium altitude bomber formation can easily go through the south of these sectors. No skill or rocket science required, when you cross into 11.9 to attack the AA factory it's too late for any defender to up.
He will possibly catch you if he tries, but only after the attack happened.
But why you don't just fly cap then?
Three hours downtime.
If you fly cap there, 'they' just will strike elsewhere. It needs only one or two sets to break the factory for a few hours. Flying cap would need like 3-4 players hovering over the factories for hours without any combat.
But it's the same with bases! You can't stop 25k bombers unless you fly cap!
Most bombers attackind bases fly lower than this, because with shorter downtimes of local objects and fluid battles it doesn't pay off as much to climb to 34k. Getting your hangars down for 10 minutes is also just a short time local effect.
IMHO it's again a matter of balance and concentration of combat (I will elaborate on that)
We had dispersed factories before, which often could, like these ones, easily be hit by medium bombers with little risk of being intercepted before the drop. But theres a big difference:
Old dispersed strats: Zone system, local effect only with also smaller impact - Short factory downtimes (45 minutes, well resupplyable)
New dispersed strats: country wide effect, much harder impact on the bases - Long factory downtimes (180 minutes) - resupplyable, but only at a small pace (4 mins per drop)
These new settings had been great for central strats, which were somewhat more difficult to attack and required much more time investment by the buff pilots.
But then the strats were dispersed and not a thing was adjusted. You still have the same huge impact, but now often little chance to defend them at all.
Please take also into account that there had been much less strat defenders than strat attackers. With the strats all over the place, it's often like 1 player trying to cover them all the time.
And finally the the mission magnet:
The central strats, particularly on large maps, were a nice tool to create large bomber raids, it was even big enough for a nice B-29 mission. I personally loved battling against huge high alt escorted raids.
The largest single target left is the City, which can easily put to 0% by two B-29s alone. For any factory, two Lancasters or B-24 can do about the same.
Taking all of this into account, I'm all for this approach
I think as per my suggestion a couple of posts ago they should do both. That is have local and national strats. National would have a more drastic effect but be both more dangerous and difficult to achieve
That would leave still targets open to bomb with shorter ranged, more vulnerable bombers like G4M, He 111, Ju 88
I wonder if anybody actually reads all this wall of text...
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you can please all the people part of the time,or you can please part of the people all the time.
BUT YOU CAN NOT PLEASE ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME ;)
.
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But it's all even more difficult. We have many maps, on which crucial factories are placed at practically indefensible locations near the front. This might even be very unbalanced between the countries as well. For example SMpizza:
SMPIZZA
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/smpizza_zpsf0bfd2d4.jpg)
Ammo factory right in front of an enemy 3.5 base. The other two countries have their ords factory far more removed to the rear.
SFMA
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/sfmaaa_zps64b8100f.jpg)
Even without A35 the AA factory has no chance being defended unless you put up a constant cap.
NDSILES
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/ndislesaa_zps5640636e.jpg)
TT insures there are constantly darbars up in 9.9 and 10.9. A low/medium altitude bomber formation can easily go through the south of these sectors. No skill or rocket science required, when you cross into 11.9 to attack the AA factory it's too late for any defender to up.
He will possibly catch you if he tries, but only after the attack happened.
But why you don't just fly cap then?
Three hours downtime.
If you fly cap there, 'they' just will strike elsewhere. It needs only one or two sets to break the factory for a few hours. Flying cap would need like 3-4 players hovering over the factories for hours without any combat.
But it's the same with bases! You can't stop 25k bombers unless you fly cap!
Most bombers attackind bases fly lower than this, because with shorter downtimes of local objects and fluid battles it doesn't pay off as much to climb to 34k. Getting your hangars down for 10 minutes is also just a short time local effect.
IMHO it's again a matter of balance and concentration of combat (I will elaborate on that)
We had dispersed factories before, which often could, like these ones, easily be hit by medium bombers with little risk of being intercepted before the drop. But theres a big difference:
Old dispersed strats: Zone system, local effect only with also smaller impact - Short factory downtimes (45 minutes, well resupplyable)
New dispersed strats: country wide effect, much harder impact on the bases - Long factory downtimes (180 minutes) - resupplyable, but only at a small pace (4 mins per drop)
These new settings had been great for central strats, which were somewhat more difficult to attack and required much more time investment by the buff pilots.
But then the strats were dispersed and not a thing was adjusted. You still have the same huge impact, but now often little chance to defend them at all.
Please take also into account that there had been much less strat defenders than strat attackers. With the strats all over the place, it's often like 1 player trying to cover them all the time.
And finally the the mission magnet:
The central strats, particularly on large maps, were a nice tool to create large bomber raids, it was even big enough for a nice B-29 mission. I personally loved battling against huge high alt escorted raids.
The largest single target left is the City, which can easily put to 0% by two B-29s alone. For any factory, two Lancasters or B-24 can do about the same.
Taking all of this into account, I'm all for this approach
That would leave still targets open to bomb with shorter ranged, more vulnerable bombers like G4M, He 111, Ju 88
I wonder if anybody actually reads all this wall of text...
Yes, because what you type usually makes sense.
I agree that the balance is off and a "tweak" is needed.
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Yes, because what you type usually makes sense.
I agree that the balance is off and a "tweak" is needed.
I concur.
I also agree with drediocks post quoted in lusche's 'wall of text'. :devil
And yes, I read it all, for the same reason as lusche, for you make sense. :airplane:
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On a big map with low-intensive fights, HQ down means a percentage of the affected country players simply log off. Harden the target(s) is by far the easiest way to keep them online.
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On a big map with low-intensive fights, HQ down means a percentage of the affected country players simply log off. Harden the target(s) is by far the easiest way to keep them online.
This is not the HQ thread :P
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Dar bar appears at high altitude enemy field.
It slowly creeps toward my country's strats.
Word goes out on 200 of possible start raid with suspected yummy b-29s, updates given every few minutes.
Strats start flashing after many updates over the last 75 minutes.
On country channel......."oh my god!" "Our starts are under attack."
I guess you drive the bus for 11 one-way trips and surrender many a proxy to the pistol wielding chute standing below your bailing c47.
OR..........you can up a proper cap while afk climbing, check back on enemy dar bars while you do something productive, and then sit down to a 400mph interceptor with a chance of tasty enemy b-29s nearby.
You would be amazed how far some planes will go "up there"
Some planes are so long legged, you can hunt high buffs over enemy starts and maybe bag a defender on the way out.
It's not hard to find entertainment in this sim and most have barely scratched the surface.
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Personally...the first thing I do when I log on is check strats. ..it lets me know how difficult defending will be and who's bases to try and take..I would love to be able to defend our strats but I have a bad habit of thinking the best way to hit a bomber is to get saddled up on there six...never works out..some of the bomber pilots are extremely accurate...one in particular..we know who he is..when I know it's him flying the bomber I run away...I mean mean extend
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Well done Lusche.
Greebo is on the right track. There should be a price to pay for the bombers seeking high altitude safe haven by way of bomb hitting results.
There already is an accuracy price high alt bombers pay, as well as a more important one: time to target.
As much as some of us might want to, we can't be playing this game 24/7. We have a limited amount of time in our lives to devote to AH, and strat runs are time consuming, especially the ones in which you grab those extra 10 or 15k of alt. High alt strat runs are already "costly" enough without adding some arbitrary penalty just because they're difficult for the minority of players in the game who actually care about them to stop.
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There already is an accuracy price high alt bombers pay
Barely any. Bombing accuracy is a total non issue in bombers unless you have no idea what you are doing. In AH most players will achieve better accuracy with a 25k level bomber than they will with a dive bomber, unless the latter rides the bombs into the target.
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You are all poo. :ahand
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Barely any. Bombing accuracy is a total non issue in bombers unless you have no idea what you are doing. In AH most players will achieve better accuracy with a 25k level bomber than they will with a dive bomber, unless the latter rides the bombs into the target.
I'm actually a pretty good bomber pilot, and accuracy at 30k is by no means a non-issue. I can do ~30% more damage to city strats at 10k than I can at 30k, for example.
But time investment is my larger point, and it just seems a bit funny to me that a lot of players won't take the 20 minutes or whatever it is to climb to alt to have a decent chance of intercepting high alt strat raiders, when we buff pilots often took an hour or more to get to the same spot on the map.
I understand Lusche's point that spread out strats on some maps means that some targets are virtually indefensible--at least before the buffs drop on target--but to me that adds an interesting different dimension to the game, not just an easier target. With towns and AAA out of action longer you--as a player and as a team--have to adjust your tactics in order to succeed. I like that.
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I'd like to point out that earlier today, thanks to a timely intercept by the Snailman and his trusty ta152, the only thing my b29 was able to destroy was a knit farmer's field...
From the Rook side, I upped a single B-29 with the intention of getting to 25k and pounding knit ammo and AAA factories. I was able to get leveled out at 25k just before I hit knit airspace, certainly the bare minimum of climb distance and time to reach my goal. As I lined up for the first target (AAA I believe it was), I noticed an enemy dar bar was looming in front of me. Sure enough, as I calibrated and got the AAA factory in my sight, a 190 class aircraft appeared at my 12 o'clock level thundering towards me. I manned my nose gun and managed to get a brief ping with no apparent damage; he however oiled my #4 engine. At this point I was too far past the AAA factory and could not drop my eggs. He made several more passes at me, damaging my #3 engine as well as I desperately tried to fend him off. Knowing that I could not possibly reach the ammo factory, I jettisoned my bombs to loose weight on the hapless knit countryside below. On the fourth pass I managed to deal a deathblow to the 152, sending it into a tailspin. My journey was not over, as I was fighting to keep a level and true course home on two functioning engines with a bf-109g6 dogging me. Ultimately I was able to critically injure this plane enough for it to make a retreat down to its field with no more damage to myself. The landing was precarious. Knowing that perk points were on the line with only my port engines working, I lowered the flaps and barely managed to clear the trees on the edge of the runway before dropping down to the pavement. All told is was a harrowing 1.33 hour flight.
Though I had won but a small tactical victory, Snail claimed the much larger strategic victory by saving the knit factories... for now... :t
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The final deathblow to the Ta 152H was preceded by an earlier PW to the same plane, so the interceptor pilot decided to make some fast, more aggressive attacks before finally losing consciousness.
It didn't work out :ahand
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I doubt HTC are going to go back to a single strat city having just got rid of it. So what else could be done to rebalance the game?
Real radar's range increases with altitude and also for larger targets. So have the game generate a greatly increased radar dot radius for bomber formations, either all the time or for formations over a certain alt.
Hopefully we will get large cloud formations back in the MA in the new version. If so it might be possible to arrange a 50% chance of cloud cover over each strat at say 15K. Higher bombers would then be forced to try an alternate strat or make a second pass when it has cleared.
More vicious or variable high alt wind shear effects could be introduced that make very high alt bombing really inaccurate and so forces bombers down to where fighters have a better chance of intercepting.
I'm still trying to figure out what the thinking was on that - I liked the big city with all the strats as it made big buff missions fun thing to do on squad nites. What the big city strat complex lacked was any real ack protection - same thing we get with the CV group. A single box of bombers flying into a well defended strategic target should be blown out of the sky at least 50% of the time. especially if you are coming in low. As it is now all you get is a couple of pings and you fly away and get your paint touched up. Fix that issue and a lot of the single box noe strat raiders will go away.
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I'm still trying to figure out what the thinking was on that - I liked the big city with all the strats as it made big buff missions fun thing to do on squad nites.
That's what I miss most on a personal level - large, escorted, high altitude bomber missions.
What the big city strat complex lacked was any real ack protection - same thing we get with the CV group. A single box of bombers flying into a well defended strategic target should be blown out of the sky at least 50% of the time. especially if you are coming in low. As it is now all you get is a couple of pings and you fly away and get your paint touched up.
The old central strats (and the leftover City) even still was quite well defended by ack VS noe raiders. Today's single factories have just a few light ack guns left, and not even a single puffy ack at all.
Puffy ack over the City/central strat was also nice, but (like CV puffy as well) suffered from the fact that puffy can & will hit the lead bomber only:
From Sep 12 to Dec 13 I did 549 attack runs on the Central Strats losing 51 bombers to puffy and got various degrees of damage on maybe twice as many. But not even once a drone was visibly hurt by puffy, no *boom*, no smoking engines, no fuel leaks, nada.
No wonder puffy doesn't do much against bombers when 2 of 3 planes in a formation are invulnerable to it.
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Less than 1/10 losses over the strats? Hmmm, my mossie got PW'ed one time in four, each time at the same moment as a flak hit in the port wing.
Grump.
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Less than 1/10 losses over the strats?
My detailed strat run AA losses:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/centralacklosslsuch_zpsac3c155f.jpg)
note that a mission consists of three AH 'sorties' (=1 formation)
And as said before, not a single drone was ever even hurt by puffy ack.
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I must be magnetic then. I posted a fairly extensive WhineWhaaaLookatmeeee thread on the subject. Like I say, I lost one Mossie in every four (single birds, I never flew formations, didn't have the perkies), to PWs due to flak over the strats. Each time, the film showed a hit sprite somewhere on the port wing.
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That's what I miss most on a personal level - large, escorted, high altitude bomber missions.
You've intercepted some of mine. :). Damn, I miss those days. Next month, I'll see about resurrecting some of that... hopefully.
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{snip}
When HQ is taken out, what we should see is country channel text light up with information from individuals to supplement the lost dar information.
:D I don't know what game you have been playing..... definitely doesn't sound anything like the group in AH ;)
It would be nice, but text chat is for calling each other dweebs, HOs and such :bolt:
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Like I say, I lost one Mossie in every four (single birds, I never flew formations, didn't have the perkies), to PWs due to flak over the strats. Each time, the film showed a hit sprite somewhere on the port wing.
Flying formations would have changed that to one Mossie in every twelve :D
And yes, the hit placement system is a bit strange too (even when putting aside the fact that drones don't get hit at all): I very frequently get hit in the Center Fuel tank in my B-29. The odd thing is, I can't find any entry in my logs that a different fuel tank has been hit at all :headscratch:
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How about we simply intensify the numbers of ack over and around HQ and the rest of the strats
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Increase the difficulty of pinpoint bombing like it was when AH first started. What was the accuracy of WW2 bombers? Certainly not 99-100% like we have here. That would change the base takers ability to down hangers so quickly and easily. The wind layers seem to have no effect either. :airplane:
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Increase the difficulty of pinpoint bombing like it was when AH first started. What was the accuracy of WW2 bombers? Certainly not 99-100% like we have here. That would change the base takers ability to down hangers so quickly and easily. The wind layers seem to have no effect either. :airplane:
Dunno. I cant hardly hit doodly in a bomber at anything over 12K.
Then again Im not what can be considered a dedicated bomber jock
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Increase the difficulty of pinpoint bombing like it was when AH first started. What was the accuracy of WW2 bombers? Certainly not 99-100% like we have here. That would change the base takers ability to down hangers so quickly and easily. The wind layers seem to have no effect either. :airplane:
No, it can't be buff specific, it needs to be HQ specific. If you make bombing harder well have less bombers. If you make the damage to little the buffs will disappear. Right now we just need the balance adjusted.
One guy can knock out radar in an hour or so for his trip and it takes one guy 3 or 4 hours to repair that damage. So adjust it so it only takes 1 guy 5 trips to bring it back up.
I know, but if 5 guys run supplies it will only be down for 12 minutes making the bombers run a waste.... not if there is 5 guys spaced out 12 minutes apart. Now the run becomes a tactic instead a "griefing" play.
This way the attacker has to work at just as the defender does.
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I logged in on Saturday and our HQ was hit. My wingman, Wiley, logged in and we spent the day defending the strats and the HQ. Not once did HQ get taken out again and we had many many try. We flew TA152's which I consider to be the finest interceptor in the game. We traded off landing and rearming so there was always at least one of us in position. Frankly, it was very fun and very exciting. In conclusion, yes, you can defend your HQ but you need patience, determination and a decent skill set.
Wiley has been a member of JG11 for a couple weeks now and I'm glad to have him, great guy, really good stick and fearless. Sometimes, he's even higher than me (when I'm taking off or landing).
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Frankly, it was very fun and very exciting. In conclusion, yes, you can defend your HQ but you need patience, determination and a decent skill set
It works that way only at and near prime time, and on a map that makes it possible. On SFMA for example, one had to hover directly over the HQ for an attack which may, or may not come in the next two hours.
That's about as exciting as flying resupply goons for the same time
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It was a lot of fun, and I'm sure we saved the HQ once (barely) and probably our presence saved it from being hit repeatedly because the bombers knew we were there waiting for them. After we halted them cold, nothing more came in. I'm sure we made a difference to our side.
With that said, I can only think of a couple other people who enjoy that kind of gameplay that would be willing to commit to that kind of mission over the course of a day. It is definitely not for many.
It works that way only at and near prime time, and on a map that makes it possible. On SFMA for example, one had to hover directly over the HQ for an attack which may, or may not come in the next two hours.
That's about as exciting as flying resupply goons for the same time
Yeah. It was across Saturday afternoon, not peak numbers but not dead either. There were enough guys that thought they had a free shot at first to make it fun, but like you say, loitering for 2 hours is not fun gameplay. If you keep an eye on the likely approach vectors though, it is possible to go do something else and still retask back to the strat area as needed.
...I can't believe I just said that to Snailman, of course he knows that... ;)
I'm starting to like a lot of things about Fester the more I play on it.
Wiley.
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I am a puffy ack magnet I don't care what any chart says.
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How about we simply intensify the numbers of ack over and around HQ and the rest of the strats
2 times 0 is still 0. I've done tests regarding the CV puffy ack (and the CV group has a lot of it). In ten tests in B17s (at 10K I think) the CV puffy ack had zero probability of taking out my set of 3 bombers before I dropped. In fact it managed to take out a single plane of the 30 total.
If someone wants your HQ or strat target dead, you're only option is to assign someone to fly around each target for hours doing nothing whatsoever. And, given that your one plane with maybe two to four guns that can damage a bomber are going up against 3 planes with a total of something like 30 guns that can kill you instantly, that still isn't a guaranteed save of the strat/HQ.
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One problem I see with HQ/strat defense is no one ups when the early warning is put out. Second, when people do up they are upping at a base 10-20 miles from the raids current location. At the point you're never going to catch them as you're climbing and trying to run them down. Theres a 7k base behind the HQ on festema, its maybe two sectors back but thats 7k you don't have to climb and bring a drop tank. In a 152 you should be able to them if you up when they are a sector from the city
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Theres a 7k base behind the HQ on festema, its maybe two sectors back but thats 7k you don't have to climb and bring a drop tank. In a 152 you should be able to them if you up when they are a sector from the city
A loaded 24k Lancaster covers one sector in 5.5 minutes (without wind).You will never get a Ta 152H from that 7k base 4 sectors away from the city to catch the Lancaster if you up when it's only one sector away.
High alt bases save fighters less time and distance than often assumed.
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A loaded 24k Lancaster covers one sector in 5.5 minutes (without wind).You will never get a Ta 152H from that 7k base 4 sectors away from the city to catch the Lancaster if you up when it's only one sector away.
High alt bases save fighters less time and distance than often assumed.
Exactly. You also need an advantage so you aren't attacking from the rear and the time to make at least 3 passes to kill them all even if you are very good. I want a 5k advantage, a position advantage and I want to be at speed so it is I that controls the fight.
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Quick test: Upping from that 7k base, A 100% Ta 152H was at 24K after 7 minutes and reached the HQ after almost 12 minutes, with he City still being two full sectors away. A 24K Lancaster would have covered two sectors in the meantime
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Beer was a factor at that time so i must of time traveled. I'll need to look at the map again to see about where they were, when i took off.
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And all of that doesn't matter anyway when the enemy is going NOE
As I write this, our City is getting totally whacked by a NOE raid. On a map like Fester, it's absolutely impossible to defend at such an attack, because the airbases are too far away. It takes only 3 minutes for the raiders to get to the City when the alarm goes off. There is no prior indication of such a raid.
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One problem I see with HQ/strat defense is no one ups when the early warning is put out.
That's because players do not sit in the tower and wait for the "scramble!" order to be given. Most players will not disengage their current fight & bail out just to scramble a fighter to HQ/strat - and rightly so. My playing time is too short and precious to waste on 30k impossible interceptions, or endless CAP with no action.
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like idea of large coverage area within a high alt radar system.
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My experience on the instances I do up to respond to an HQ alert I see the darbar go to a dar arrow, and off the map they go.
The entire reason most HQ grief mongers hit strats and hq is to avoid combat... They will do almost anything to keep from engaging.
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+1 to the mega cluster strats affecting whole country and localized zone strats Idea
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When the first Ploesti Raid lead navigator turned short and attacked Bucharest, he was unknowingly attacking the HEADQUARTERS of the German Air Defense Command. They repulsed the main thrust shortly thereafter.
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Okay, let's clear up the nonsense. HQ going down for extended periods of time 30 minutes or more (have seen it downtime 190 minutes), causing the loss of visual aid in finding fights is counter productive for gaming experience. The only "winner" is the goof who thinks it is funny that an entire country has been affected by his actions and enjoys the negative attention.
Lusche has pointed to many facts about the myth that such action can be driven out by players alone. Forgive those like myself that would like to enjoy a game that they subscribe to during our leisure time, that happens to coincide with prime time in Australia ( :salute my Aussie mates who have subscribed for as long as I can remember).
We, off hours players, would like to do as you say and drive these HQ raiders away and out. The problem that anyone trying to make sense here has to concede, the reward for taking out HQ is too grave and is not a 1 v 1 venture. There are far more other things, that do promote good fights and online player interaction, that I shouldn't have to abandon every time a contact is alerted within 150 miles of a strat.
Searching for an enemy strat raider who is purposefully avoiding detection, guessing his intentions (target), guessing his altitude, and guessing his air speed, even with all the radar functions working is simply not a good use of my limited time to play.
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Okay, let's clear up the nonsense. HQ going down for extended periods of time 30 minutes or more (have seen it downtime 190 minutes), causing the loss of visual aid in finding fights is counter productive for gaming experience. The only "winner" is the goof who thinks it is funny that an entire country has been affected by his actions and enjoys the negative attention.
Lusche has pointed to many facts about the myth that such action can be driven out by players alone. Forgive those like myself that would like to enjoy a game that they subscribe to during our leisure time, that happens to coincide with prime time in Australia ( :salute my Aussie mates who have subscribed for as long as I can remember).
We, off hours players, would like to do as you say and drive these HQ raiders away and out. The problem that anyone trying to make sense here has to concede, the reward for taking out HQ is too grave and is not a 1 v 1 venture. There are far more other things, that do promote good fights and online player interaction, that I shouldn't have to abandon every time a contact is alerted within 150 miles of a strat.
Searching for an enemy strat raider who is purposefully avoiding detection, guessing his intentions (target), guessing his altitude, and guessing his air speed, even with all the radar functions working is simply not a good use of my limited time to play.
Off-peak players are simply not valued. :bhead