Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rob52240 on September 08, 2014, 10:29:14 AM
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Do any of you guys own a Bond Arms 45/410 derringer? If so are you happy with it?
I've been looking at getting another gun for a little while now and I've never owned or really been interested in pistols. I've been considering getting one of these derringers because of their small size and large ammunition.
(http://www.gunlistings.org/uploads/1_pistols_bond_arms_derringer_.45lc.410_76148.jpg)
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Small size + large caliber = Owwwwww Find a store with a range so you can try before ya buy. :aok
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I've never been to a gun shop with its own range before and none of the local shops have a range.
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Do I own one? No.
That said, small size + large ammunition = hard to control and not very comfortable. Factor in the two-round capacity and it's really more of a novelty than anything.
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Do I own one? No.
That said, small size + large ammunition = hard to control and not very comfortable. Factor in the two-round capacity and it's really more of a novelty than anything.
I wouldn't call it a novelty. A single shot derringer worked well enough for Booth.
Since it will also fire .410 shotgun shells it will fire up to 5 pellets of .00 buckshot per trigger pull.
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I wouldn't call it a novelty. A single shot derringer worked well enough for Booth.
Since it will also fire .410 shotgun shells it will fire up to 5 pellets of .00 buckshot per trigger pull.
The question isn't can you can kill with it; rather, it's can you stop an assailant by the time the last shot is fired. Typically, only a direct hit to a major artery, heart, or CNS, will stop someone in their tracks. With only two shots, you greatly reduce those chances.
All of that said, I've always been intrigued by pepperbox derringers. I'd love to get one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykLzgTOikek
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As far as the ammo effectively giving the user more shot to shoot. Typical loading would be 3" buckshot or Winchester's .410 bore Personal Defense ammo.
(http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/img/products/original/winchester_ammunition_410ga_3_inch_super_x_000_buckshot_1016206_2_og.jpg)
(http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionImages/new-products/detail/NPD_PDX1_410.jpg)
Animation of the winchester load in flight. I wonder how well those "defense discs" penetrate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR-A8irzyWo
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I wouldn't call it a novelty. A single shot derringer worked well enough for Booth.
Since it will also fire .410 shotgun shells it will fire up to 5 pellets of .00 buckshot per trigger pull.
And a 22 is often the most common round used in suicides and is still deadly well past 400 yards. Doesn't mean its good.
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As a former gun Sales man and a gun enthusiast, this gun just looks like a accident waiting to happen. If you want a .410/45LC weapon look at the poly judge.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=850&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41
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Someone said they are a novelty and thats about it. I bought and carried one for a while. Its not pleasant to shoot at all and really only serves one purpose, "throw down."
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Here's one that I'd get if I wanted a very-small pistol:
(http://northamericanarms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/22lr_1_7.jpg)
http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/lr.html
22 is probably OK for most self defense in that a person shot with a 22 is probably going to stop what he is doing and try to get away from you.
Here's someone shooting with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MihQcJMy8OI
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Looks like with the right ammo it could cause some damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXHzFntUAp4
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Here's one that I'd get if I wanted a very-small pistol:
(http://northamericanarms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/22lr_1_7.jpg)
http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/lr.html
22 is probably OK for most self defense in that a person shot with a 22 is probably going to stop what he is doing and try to get away from you.
Here's someone shooting with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MihQcJMy8OI
Have one in 22mag. Neat little gun. Bought it when I worked at the gunshop I worked at. One of those " well I don't have one of these" type purchases
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Here's one that I'd get if I wanted a very-small pistol
Heh. Back in the early 1980s I represented (for the prelim - hey, it was a public defender thing) a guy who was being transported from county prison to the court house. Because it was a light schedule that day, he didn't go in the sheriff's van, but was transported in a car, with the two sheriffs sitting comfortably in front. They were unpleasantly surprised, halfway along the trip, to see one of these pointed at the backs of their heads. Understandably, they let the guy out of the car.
Freedom doesn't usually last very long in those situations, Hollywood be damned, and my guy was recaptured. I asked him how he managed to get the gun out of the prison (a friend must have smuggled it in), and he refused to tell me. My assumption is that the piece will fit in very tight, uncomfortable places. As Brooke says, it is a very small pistol.
- oldman
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Oh dear god, I hope I'm assuming incorrectly, that this and that .22 listed are being considered for self defense?! If you're looking for a novelty to own for the sake of owning, sure, why not, but if you're genuinely considering trusting your life to one, I hope for your sake the need to use one never comes. Size of the shot isn't an end-all, admittedly coming from someone who favors a .45 for a carry, but it IS a factor. .380 or smaller is generally considered too small to rely on for self defense (Yes, they CAN kill you, but are they likely to stop an assailant set on taking your life? No.) as is round count. There are people (NOT hopped up on drugs) who have continued moving with 5+ rounds of .45 in them. They didn't survive, no, but they kept charging the person they were attacking and even got a few hits in. When you're defending yourself, unlike hunting, a lethal shot isn't enough to stop the attack. You need a shot that will physically prevent them from being able to move, INSTANTLY, and in a high-stress situation like self defense, the best way to achieve such a shot is accuracy by volume. I'm not a professional instructor by any means, so take my advice as you will, but a derringer is NOT a self defense weapon. I honestly think, as much as I love carrying my 1911, it's round count is almost too low. If you want something small that could be used for self defense, look into the Sig 938:
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/pistols-p938.aspx
(http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/02/24/1125749_01_sig_p938_brand_new_640.jpg)
But honestly, you would likely be better served by a Glock 26:
http://us.glock.com/products/model/g26gen4
(http://www.tannersgun.com/images-glock/9mm-glock-26.JPG)
Again, that is all under the possible incorrect assumption you're looking for self defense. If you just want a range toy, go for it. But it WILL be unpleasant to shoot.
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Regarding the 22 for self defense, here is what actual self-defense data indicates as opposed to people's feelings on the matter:
"The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. . . . Caliber really isn't all that important. Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power
People talk a lot about getting attacked by the hopped-up, crazy maniac intent to his last breath on killing you and the need therefore to kill him in one shot. That is a very small percentage of needs of use for self-defense handguns. Out of 100% of the uses of handguns in self defense, some significant portion are going to be drawing the gun and having the attacker back off or run off. Another significant proportion will be firing the gun, not even hitting, and the attacker running off. Another proportion will be attackers who are hit but not hit severely and run off. Way down at the bottom of the list of frequency is the maniac who won't stop attacking until he is dead.
Also, if that is your metric, then you need to carry a shotgun, not a handgun. It's like saying, "Well, if a river floods, and I need to get through to get to the hospital or I'll die, I need an amphibious vehicle. So, don't buy a Ford Focus -- you can get stuck in the river and die." Yes, but the odds of that are miniscule, and the vast majority of people are not going to do all of their driving in an amphibious vehicle anyway.
Another thing to keep in mind is that a 22 that you will carry (because it is so small and light) is infinitely more effective than a larger-caliber handgun that you aren't carrying.
This idea that a 22 isn't capable in self defense or a good choice for self defense is, I think, incorrect.
A small 22 is easiest (and thus most likely) to be carried. You can have a bigger gun in your glove compartment or at home. At home, you can even have the best choice for defense: a shotgun.
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Do any of you guys own a Bond Arms 45/410 derringer? If so are you happy with it?
I've been looking at getting another gun for a little while now and I've never owned or really been interested in pistols. I've been considering getting one of these derringers because of their small size and large ammunition.
(http://www.gunlistings.org/uploads/1_pistols_bond_arms_derringer_.45lc.410_76148.jpg)
What up Rob! We have one here at the house. Its a fun little gun and its not that difficult to control.
Here's one that I'd get if I wanted a very-small pistol:
(http://northamericanarms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/22lr_1_7.jpg)
http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/lr.html
22 is probably OK for most self defense in that a person shot with a 22 is probably going to stop what he is doing and try to get away from you.
Here's someone shooting with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MihQcJMy8OI
We also have one of these, except ours is a 22 mag instead os 22lr. Both are fun guns to shoot.
Both would be an exceptional gun for self defense. However, if you come across someone on PCP or anything of that nature, you may want some more rounds.
If you decided to go with something bigger, id stay away from Glock. They are good guns, but just to bulky to be a simply pocket pistol. Id look into a Ruger LC9, S&W Bodyguard, or anything else of that size.
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For something very small I'd go with Seecamp. Great guns and very reliable
I personally don't like small pocket guns for self def......actually I lie I do like my little SW MOD 60 in stainless. I can put it in the pocket of my shorts and it doesn't print at all. Other than that I dress to carry so it doesn't make much difference. My primary are my 1911 and p225
My little NAA 22mag is more of a novelty.
To the OP. Good luck, hope you find something you like and works out for you.
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+1 for the Seecamp, I've mentioned it here before many times as a great backup or tertiary backup pistol. When I was working for SigArms, Bank Miller who was the lead trainer and ran not only the FBI but the Air Marshall shooting programs previously always recommended the Seecamp as Sig hadn't made a similar sized pistol yet then, as a tertiary or even secondary backup pistol. I bought one based on this, and couldn't be happier with it, however it is expensive.
As for the OP, buy what you like, and remember, that the very WORST handgun made is still a 2x better option then the next available concealable defensive system. .22 isn't optimal not because of any "performance" issues of the round itself, but largely due to the unreliable nature of rimfire primered cartridges, that's all. With a revolver or multi barrel derringer, that reliability issue is negated for the most part, and personally, just IMO, I'd rather have a .22 derringer or small revolver, or even auto, than no pistol at all.
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I'd rather have a .22 derringer or small revolver, or even auto, than no pistol at all.
+1 Any pistol is better than no pistol. Thats as true as it gets!
:aok
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I bought a glock 27 (sub-compact .40) to carry and found it to be too bulky to comfortably carry on a daily bases. I was always worried I was showing an imprint of the gun through my clothes. I was just uncomfortable concealing it. It is my favorite gun and I still have it but I rarely carry it. Instead I bought what my friends and I refer to as "the noisy cricket." A smith and wesson 360pd.
(http://www.genitron.com/Reviews/sw-360pd-3.jpg)
A .357magnum that weighs in under 12grams empty. This is the ideal carry gun for me. I pair it with a holster that goes in my front pocket and leaves and imprint that resembles a wallet. When you draw the gun the holster sticks to the pocket material and stays in your pocket. To say this gun kicks like a mule on cocaine is an understatement. But it is not a range gun. I take it to the range and fire about 20 rounds through it before the rubberized grip tears my skin between my thumb and index finger. It would tear my skin because you have to grip the gun so tight with only 3 fingers when you shot the kick would make the gun jump and the rubber grip would take your skin with it. I was okay with this because as I said this is not a range gun. This is a comfortable carry gun that I shoot well and has lots of stopping power. Unfortunately I sold the gun to my friend to help offset the cost of my Browning 725 shotgun for clay shooting. I regret selling that gun and now the prices have sky rocketed on them. I paid $600 new and now they are around $1000 new. Now I am back to uncomfortably carrying the glock 27 when I need to carry. Dont get me wrong, I love the glock and it is my favorite gun and I am extremely accurate with it. I just feel for an everyday carry piece it is too bulky. If I dont get another 360pd I think im going to look into the small ruger lcp or lcr series.
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Regarding the 22 for self defense, here is what actual self-defense data indicates as opposed to people's feelings on the matter:
"The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. . . . Caliber really isn't all that important. Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power
People talk a lot about getting attacked by the hopped-up, crazy maniac intent to his last breath on killing you and the need therefore to kill him in one shot. That is a very small percentage of needs of use for self-defense handguns. Out of 100% of the uses of handguns in self defense, some significant portion are going to be drawing the gun and having the attacker back off or run off. Another significant proportion will be firing the gun, not even hitting, and the attacker running off. Another proportion will be attackers who are hit but not hit severely and run off. Way down at the bottom of the list of frequency is the maniac who won't stop attacking until he is dead.
Also, if that is your metric, then you need to carry a shotgun, not a handgun. It's like saying, "Well, if a river floods, and I need to get through to get to the hospital or I'll die, I need an amphibious vehicle. So, don't buy a Ford Focus -- you can get stuck in the river and die." Yes, but the odds of that are miniscule, and the vast majority of people are not going to do all of their driving in an amphibious vehicle anyway.
Another thing to keep in mind is that a 22 that you will carry (because it is so small and light) is infinitely more effective than a larger-caliber handgun that you aren't carrying.
This idea that a 22 isn't capable in self defense or a good choice for self defense is, I think, incorrect.
A small 22 is easiest (and thus most likely) to be carried. You can have a bigger gun in your glove compartment or at home. At home, you can even have the best choice for defense: a shotgun.
I'm not saying it's not possible to defend ones self with a .22. However, even the article points out that something as simple as heavy clothing may rule a .22 inadequate. Additionally, looking at your situations, while the majority of the time, you're going to be scaring an individual off without killing them, (A psychological stop, according to your article) a larger weapon is going to be more effective at this. Not to mention that while the number of hits were somewhat similar with .22 with regard to required number to stop the attack, significantly more individuals NEVER ceased to be a threat when engaged with .22 than .45 according to that article. And while the jump from a Ford to an amphib to cover a minute possibility is pretty huge, the difference in weight and size between that .22 derringer and the sig 938 is incredibly small! And considering how small the chances of EVER needing a firearm are, if you're going to go so far as to carry at all, you ought to be prepared to go all the way in any eventuality. Again, I don't claim to know anything, but if I'm going to carry, I want to carry something in which I can be confident in any situation. I don't want to have to count on a "psychological" stop. I want to be capable of a physical stop, quickly, should the need arise. That Sig is TINY, and it will do the job. But then again, I'm also perfectly happy to tote a 1911 around every day.
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If I dont get another 360pd I think im going to look into the small ruger lcp or lcr series.
I like a big gun. Whether on my hip or in my hand, I love the heft of a 1911. One of my very good friends is a big fan of mouse guns (And being hobbit sized and skinny, he has to be...). He started with the LCP and really didn't like it at all. It was even more uncomfortable to shoot than you would expect, and the fit and finish seemed cheap. After about 3 months he traded it in for the Sig 938. I feel like a broken record consistently bringing that one up, especially since I don't own one myself, but of all the mouse guns I've shot, it's the most accurate, best made and most reliable. Give it a look if you're considering the LCP.
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As a former gun Sales man and a gun enthusiast, this gun just looks like a accident waiting to happen. If you want a .410/45LC weapon look at the poly judge.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=850&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41
We keep a Judge at the ranch for rattle snakes around the house. 4-0 Us.
It's a big, heavy pistola, tho.
Wife has a mid-size Beretta. 13 rounds and big enough to handle safely. I wouldn't want her to carry anything smaller.
And no. I don't go out of my way to irritate her. :cool:
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As a former gun Sales man and a gun enthusiast, this gun just looks like a accident waiting to happen. If you want a .410/45LC weapon look at the poly judge.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=850&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41
Why do you see it as an accident waiting to happen?
It's a single action pistol with a safety.
As far as self defense use goes, most violent crime happens at distances < 10' and most property crime happens at arms length.
Weather or not I'm exercising my 2nd amendment right in public I nearly always have a Buck 110 in pocket. I spent 5 years being a butcher and use my Norton 313 in addition to soft & hard Arkansas stones to keep it well honed. I think the Buck knife will keep me as safe as any pistol should the need arise.
What up Rob! We have one here at the house. Its a fun little gun and its not that difficult to control.
We also have one of these, except ours is a 22 mag instead os 22lr. Both are fun guns to shoot.
Both would be an exceptional gun for self defense. However, if you come across someone on PCP or anything of that nature, you may want some more rounds.
If you decided to go with something bigger, id stay away from Glock. They are good guns, but just to bulky to be a simply pocket pistol. Id look into a Ruger LC9, S&W Bodyguard, or anything else of that size.
You flying up for deer season this winter Kirk?
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.44 Snubbie with SPL ammo, but if you plan on a lot of shooting the ammo is a little higher.
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My belief isn't that a 22 is better for self defense for a person who is willing always to carry something larger.
My belief is that, because a 22 is nearly as good as something larger with respect to probability of stopping an attack, it is a decent choice, and for the person who would otherwise carry nothing, it is an infinitely better choice.
With that said, on to specifics.
the article points out that something as simple as heavy clothing may rule a .22 inadequate.
The article doesn't say that. It says that the test didn't take cover, or clothing, or car doors into account and went on to say that, if you are needing to shoot through car doors, larger calibers are useful. In fact, from tests, many of which you can view on youtube, it is clear that 22's go through clothing.
(A psychological stop, according to your article) a larger weapon is going to be more effective at this.
That is your supposition, but not mine. I would bet the process "He's drawn a gun! OK, let me see what caliber it is. Hmm, it's a 22. OK, although I would run if it were a 38, I think I can take some 22 hits, so I'm not running." almost never factors into the thought process. I had a gun drawn on me once. I had just gotten into the passenger side of a car and closed the door when a punk on the street put a gun barrel right up to the window and pointed at my face. I didn't move, but the driver of the car drove off. Afterwards, I replayed it in my mind and suspected that the gun was actually either a pellet gun or maybe a 22 -- it certainly wasn't a 45. None of that calculation ran through my mind at the time.
significantly more individuals NEVER ceased to be a threat when engaged with .22 than .45 according to that article.
Number of people not incapacitated who took 22 hits was 31%. For the 45 ACP, it was 14% -- so a difference of 17 percentage points. But, again, the number of times a person needs to completely incapacitate an attacker in order to stop an attack is small. The average number of shots to stop an attack for the 22 was about the same as the 45 (1.38 vs. 2.08 -- probably within the noise of the statistic).
Also, total effectiveness of a handgun is not just probability of stopping an attack (let's call that Pstop). It is Pstop x (probability that you have the gun on you) -- call that Ptot = Pstop x Pcarry. Pstop for larger calibers probably isn't that much greater than a 22, but even if it were, Pcarry for larger calibers is probably much smaller than for 22's. As a result, when you are looking at a population and not just yourself (as you are willing to carry something larger than a 22 100% of the time), a 22 is a good recommendation.
And considering how small the chances of EVER needing a firearm are, if you're going to go so far as to carry at all, you ought to be prepared to go all the way in any eventuality.
All of your arguments apply to the recommendation to carry a shotgun instead of a 45. Of course, again, the Pcarry for a shotgun is much, much smaller than for a 45 or a 22, Ptot isn't very good, and so it isn't a good recommendation to the general population for carrying around for self defense. But, if you were willing to carry around a shotgun 100% of the time, then a shotgun would be a better choice for you than a 45.
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Basically, the upshot from the data: a 22 is on average a good self-defense gun.
It is not a poor choice; and it is not true that anything less than a 38, 9 mm, 45 or whatever, is ineffective.
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The U.S. Army learned when fighting the Juramentados (Moros of Mindanao) that small caliber weapons possess no stopping power and that even a solitary enemy could advance and kill with melee weapons before they would bleed out. I think the Moros practice of limb wrapping is about the equal of a drugged up aggressor, but anyway that is precisely why the U.S. military adopted the .45 caliber and why the Thompson was developed.
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The U.S. Army learned
Yes, but a military battle is vastly different than civilian self defense. The data isn't a study of 22 pistols used as a primary weapon to stop enemies fighting to the death in a war.
The data is saying that for civilian self defense in the US, a 22 is effective.
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There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
In a shooting scenario, unless a major artery, vital organ, or CNS is struck, then the only damage you have is the hole made by the round, as well as damage done to the surround areas by cavitation due to the shockwave produced by the round.
At one extreme, let's examine a rifle round as it contacts an assailant. We'll assume that hollowpoints are used. The round penetrates, typically at a near-sonic speed. This causes two things to happen:
- Due to the extreme speed and rotation of the round at high speed, the round starts to yaw, destabilizing it and causing it to mushroom. High speed rounds also tend to disintegrate (splinter) as they destabilize, sending out additional shards.
- A shockwave is produced within the tissue and surrounding flesh as the bullet quickly displaces the tissue and imparts energy to it. The tissue moves the opposite direction, tearing and stretching. Once the round has passed, the tissue is left with a semi-permanent cavity.
Now, let's examine a .22 hollowpoint:
- The 22 strikes the assailant, and mushrooms. However, it does not have ample diameter to produce much more than a clean pass-through.
- The 22 has enough energy for penetration, but little left over for cavitation.
It is the expansion and cavitation of a round that typically produces stopping power. This means that, with a .22, unless you shoot someone in the head, heart, or in a major artery, you've simply punctured them with a .22-caliber sized hole. Sure, a lung hit might prove fatal, but not for several minutes. What most people fail to take into account is that during a fight, the body produces huge levels of adrenaline and other chemicals that serve to numb the body to pain and sensation. This is well known in the Law Enforcement and Military fields. Clean-through hits will not incapacitate an attacker, which is why current doctrine is shoot until they're on the ground, incapacitated.
Again, I'm not in any way saying .22's can't kill someone - they can and have. However, many people look a snatch and grab robberies as examples where .22's have performed just fine. What they fail to acknowledge is that the criminals involved in those crimes would have run at the sight of any gun - they weren't trying to kill or stop the victim. Factor in a purposed violent crime where someone wants the victim dead, and the attacker is rarely going to care about being shot after the fact. This is backed up by years of LE and Military studies.
The most important factor in stopping power is the mass+velocity of the projectile. There comes a point where there's diminishing returns, but it suffices to say that 9mm is typically considered the smallest caliber to reliably incapacitate with commercial loads. This is almost universally acknowledged in the LE field, and many departments will not let officers carry anything less than a .40 in caliber.
Lastly, several studies have been done over home defense weapons, and shotguns were found to be one of the least efficient weapons (although arguably they are one of the most intimidating). The safest and most reliable home defense weapons were found to be weapons chambered with hollowpoint 5.56/.223. A single 5.56mm round imparts more energy into soft tissue than a 00 buckshot load. Additionally, 00 buckshot over-penetrated the shooting backdrop and was found to go through numerous walls. In some cases, shotgun loads would go through 4+ internal walls and the outer house walls, and strike houses/structures adjacent to the shooting scene. Pistol calibers yielded the same results.
5.56mm was found to yaw upon contact with a surface and rapidly destabilize, making it both much safer for indoor defense situations, as well as much deadlier. It was also much more accurate than shotgun loads, and the higher capacity (when AR-15's were used) made it better suited for multiple shot scenarios than pistols.
I was looking for the original charts and came across this link. It's posted by Olympic Arms (a questionable AR-15 manufacturer at best), but the information on the page is correct:
Ballistics Tests (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14:223-penetration-information&catid=13:technical-info)
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Yes, but a military battle is vastly different than civilian self defense. The data isn't a study of 22 pistols used as a primary weapon to stop enemies fighting to the death in a war.
The data is saying that for civilian self defense in the US, a 22 is effective.
I say the data is wrong. I can see that there are scenarios in which a .22 might be effective, but a lot more scenarios where it would be like throwing cotton candy. The way I see it the .22 is only good as a quick defense weapon, where you draw it at close range against an unarmed attacker, or edged weapon.
And just to be clear, the 'war' against the Moro people was a lot more like fighting the Apache where you never knew when one would emerge from cover and attack. Mostly the Moro only had a sword, or another edged weapon against the .38 caliber pistol.
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There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
Where? Actually there are a lot of opinions but no real misinformation.
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I say the data is wrong.
Oh -- I reverse my opinion then. The guy who gathered the data is " . . .the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute." Your feeling on the matter is certainly more convincing than this shmoe and his supposed "data." ;)
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Brooke, you keep assuming that just because it's bigger than a .22 it's not going to be carried. Again, I'm not saying you CAN'T take a .22, but the cost in both size AND weight to go from a .22 to a 9mm is negligable.
Your recommended .22 compared to my recommended 938:
OAL: 4" vs 5.9"
Width: 13/16" vs 1.1"
Weight: 4.5oz vs 16oz
Capacity: 5x.22 vs 6x9mm
The 938 compared to your average cell phone (Samsung Galaxy)
OAL: 5.5"
Width: .3"
Weight: 5.11 OZ
Size wize, they're both right around the size of the cell phone in my pocket. The 938 is about three times the weight of either, (Still a mere pound) and roughly the same dimensions as the .22.
If you're going to carry a .22 that MIGHT do the job, why not go a LITTLE farther (Still fits in your front pocket just fine) and carry one more round of a more serviceable caliber.
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Oh -- I reverse my opinion then. The guy who gathered the data is " . . .the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute." Your feeling on the matter is certainly more convincing than this shmoe and his supposed "data." ;)
Again, it's his data that disagrees with the real professionals. That guy has spent so much time teaching he has convinced himself that his knowledge level is superior. Don't bet your life on it.
When I was a young man I spent so many hours at eskrima, arnis, kali, kendo, and kudo that I could not be beat. I could do things no one else could. That does not mean you can, but only that I could.
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I dont care what caliber of gun a person has or how many rounds the gun can carry or how fast the pistol can be reloaded. As a backup or trench partner I'd take a tried and true veteran armed with a .22LR revolver any day over some banana who thinks his fondling a 15+ capacity wonder gun auto loader makes him king of the gun fight.
First, be able to step up and fight through the "flight" stage that consumes most people when a threat presents itself. Until you get put in that situation (THREAT font and center!!!), or at minimum get hammered by a few dozen simmuntion rounds, you wont know how you will react. Most people flinch and sprint for safety until taught differently. Trust me.
Second, be able to USE the platform effectively. No sense in carrying a .357 Magnum snub nose revolver if you cant handle the gun. Too much gun = fail since the user is intimidated by the recoil, noise, etc. Start small, learn it, perfect it, advance to "better" platforms.
Third, accuracy is key. This ties in to the point above. Until a person can pick up a pistol time and time again, and not have a "bad day" at the range, keep practicing. Practice some more. Learning on the .22RL is good, then to the .380 ACP or 9mm (depending on shooter comfort and ability), then to the bigger revolver calibers, if need be. Leave the .40SW in the gun store for those people in the "learning" stage. The 9mm is just as effective with LOTS of other positive attributes (recoil, muzzle jump, ammo costs, weight, etc).
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Brooke, you keep assuming that just because it's bigger than a .22 it's not going to be carried.
Yes.
I don't have data on how many of which type of gun are carried by non-police civilians (not bought, but actually carried). It might exist somewhere, but I couldn't find it in 15 minutes of looking. But it does seem plausible to me, and it is how I feel about it. I would not carry something larger than would fit unobtrusively in my pocket or with more burden than a large key fob. I would not and do not carry a large cell phone in my pocket -- I use a belt clip instead, but wouldn't do that for a handgun. 4" vs. 6" and especially 4.5 oz vs. 16 oz are major differences to me -- the difference between something I would carry in my pocket routinely (like a pocket knife) and something that I would almost never carry.
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Again, it's his data that disagrees with the real professionals.
He *is* a real professional.
It's hard to disagree with data -- data is data unless it is faked or cherry picked. It's possible to disagree with analysis if one can point out how the analysis technique has a flaw. Opinions that are backed up neither by data nor analysis are often nearly useless.
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Second, be able to USE the platform effectively. No sense in carrying a .357 Magnum snub nose revolver if you cant handle the gun. Too much gun = fail since the user is intimidated by the recoil, noise, etc. Start small, learn it, perfect it, advance to "better" platforms.
I had no problem using my .357 snub nose. The gun was not too much for me. The only draw back was the skin tearing after 20 rounds at the range but that shouldn't be a factor after 5 rounds in a defensive situation. If I cant stop the threat with 5 rounds then I'm in trouble anyway and a little torn skin would be the least of my worries. I was never intimidated by the recoil or anything else. I could hit a 4" circle with all 5 rounds at 10yards out.
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To say this gun kicks like a mule on cocaine is an understatement.
I've shot the 360. Pewter, that's about one of the best metaphors I've ever heard describing the recoil. I took 5 rnds of Corbon 140gr JHPs. That was like putting a cattle prod up the arse of the coke fueled mule. I swear my thumb and pointer finger and the inner palm of my hand had a religious experiance. Personally I'd rather dip my nuts in honey and tbag a grizzly bear than ever do that again :lol
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Smith and Wesson Bodyguard .380 in the back pocket with my thin wallet. Just in case somebody catches me slipping.... Oh hello there you want my wallet? ok here it is... BAM!BAM!BAM!BAM!BAM!BAM!BAM! There it is all 7 rounds to the gut.
Also Brooke one thing to remember states that do have concealed carry usually make you take the shooting portion with a .32 or larger.
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Irrespective of caliber, be it a .22LR or a .454 Casull, shot placement is the single most important factor.
Many a perp has collected a .45 ACP and NOT stopped his behavior. Likewise, many a thug has been stopped in his tracks by a .22 round. Obviously, the effectiveness of the .45 ACP is far greater than the .22 LR when striking a portion of the body where instant death will not result. Nothing ends a violent attack like a bullet to the head. The problem is, very few can shoot that accurately while at ease on a range, much less during the extreme stress of defending one's life.
Whatever you are armed with, you must be proficient with it. Practice and practice some more. Not only shooting, but drawing the pistol from where ever you conceal it. It should be nearly automatic, or like they say nowadays, "muscle memory". This will go a long way to overcoming the loss of fine motor skills when the adrenalin starts flowing.
Speaking of bullet effectiveness, I read a piece about a shooting in 1949. A large, very angry man dragged his estranged wife from her house and was beating her on the front lawn with a copper pipe. A 58 year-old man living across the road heard the ruckus and observed what was going on. He grabbed a loaded revolver and ran across the street, ordering the man to stop the beating. He was told to mind his own business and the man resumed beating the woman. The neighbor took aim, and fired one round. The crazed man dropped like a sack of wheel weights, dead.
This story doesn't sound unlike shootings we see in the news now and then, right?
Not exactly.
The revolver used was an Colt Model 1860 Army, manufactured in 1865. A .44 caliber, cap and ball pistol. It originally belonged to the neighbor's grand father. Passed down through the family, the neighbor found it functioning. Figuring that it may come in handy one day, he bought powder, balls and caps. Every year he would walk out into the woods and "shoot it out", clean and reload the revolver. He kept it in the drawer of his night stand for over 20 years. It did, eventually, come in handy.
An autopsy of the dead man revealed massive internal damage. The .451 diameter lead ball entered the man's torso, just below the right armpit. The ball broke two ribs, traversed the man's chest, nicking the liver, going through the right lung, heart, and left lung. The ball exited the man's torso, breaking another rib doing so, then went completely through his left bicep and was found having penetrated the clapboard siding of the woman's house. The 138 grain lead ball was badly distorted, but had retained more than 95% of its initial weight.
Transverse hits often require greater penetration than hits square on the front of a person. The little .22 LR is a good penetrating round, having a small section and a round nose. The wound cavity is small, but the damage it can do is sometimes very large, because of the round's tendency to change direction within the body. The .22 LR round that nearly killed Reagan was fired from a short barreled revolver, and it did a great deal of damage, leading to near fatal internal bleeding. It traveled almost 14 inches through the President's upper body. The bullet was "flattened like a dime", and found about 1" behind Reagan's heart.
Despite all of the discussion on ballistics of handgun rounds, and test results of shooting ballistic jelly, the fact remains that the little .22 LR is lethal if placed where it counts... Will it stop a crazed, drugged up Moro? If I shoot him in the face or head... It surely will.
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... Will it stop a crazed, drugged up Moro? If I shoot him in the face or head... It surely will.
That's a BIG if. . .
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That's a BIG if. . .
Of course, but there's always the testicles..... ;)
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because most guys who breaks into houses are crazed drugged up moros. I dont think the size of the gun matters but more the what you feel comfortable with.
for example I took my gf to buy a 9mm handgun but the sales person keep pushing the 357 as it had more stopping power. when I explained that she didnt feel comfortable with the 357, he still kept pushing it. finally we walked out without buying anything.
I think you should just get what you feel comfortable with. what's the point of having the biggest gun if after the first shot you are gonna be shooting up into the ceiling. or perhaps you hesitate because you know you cant handle the recoil.
semp
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Do any of you guys own a Bond Arms 45/410 derringer? If so are you happy with it?
I've been looking at getting another gun for a little while now and I've never owned or really been interested in pistols. I've been considering getting one of these derringers because of their small size and large ammunition.
I bought one to keep in my bull dozer when clearing brush. Great little pistol for killing snakes. It works great for that! Bird shot isn't too bad but .45 long colt and buckshot sucks! I would think long and hard before carrying this for self defense. IMHO There are plenty of better suited pistols on the market.
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because most guys who breaks into houses are crazed drugged up moros. I dont think the size of the gun matters but more the what you feel comfortable with.
for example I took my gf to buy a 9mm handgun but the sales person keep pushing the 357 as it had more stopping power. when I explained that she didnt feel comfortable with the 357, he still kept pushing it. finally we walked out without buying anything.
I think you should just get what you feel comfortable with. what's the point of having the biggest gun if after the first shot you are gonna be shooting up into the ceiling. or perhaps you hesitate because you know you cant handle the recoil.
semp
Smart move. You're more likely to live when she shoots you accidentally with the 9mm :devil
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because most guys who breaks into houses are crazed drugged up moros. I dont think the size of the gun matters but more the what you feel comfortable with.
for example I took my gf to buy a 9mm handgun but the sales person keep pushing the 357 as it had more stopping power. when I explained that she didnt feel comfortable with the 357, he still kept pushing it. finally we walked out without buying anything.
I think you should just get what you feel comfortable with. what's the point of having the biggest gun if after the first shot you are gonna be shooting up into the ceiling. or perhaps you hesitate because you know you cant handle the recoil.
semp
He didnt explain the .357 can also shoot .38 spl's which have a plethora of loads and bullet types available for it? Many which are perfect for a new shooter/Lady. Revolvers are also simpler machines then semi's and a wheel gun in .38 would be perfect for your GF. Eventually, after enough practice, she might be ready to load the full .357 125 JHPs. And any bad guy you hit with one of those is most likely not getting up.