Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FLOOB on September 14, 2014, 10:33:23 AM

Title: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: FLOOB on September 14, 2014, 10:33:23 AM
mi-28ne's to be exact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhmO1Yi-V0

Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 14, 2014, 10:42:25 AM
What part of Iraq?
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 14, 2014, 11:15:25 AM
This is a very complex helicopter.  Is this really the best helo for a counter-insurgency?
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Nath[BDP] on September 14, 2014, 11:51:04 AM
(http://web.archive.org/web/20110527192141/http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/large/041023F_0MYEDggg.jpg)
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 14, 2014, 12:43:46 PM
Kiowa is a great helo, but it needs a cannon. 
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on September 14, 2014, 02:22:06 PM
Seems kinda vulnerable to small arms fire.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Nath[BDP] on September 14, 2014, 02:43:07 PM
its a scout chopper light and fast

i just thought that was a great picture.  chopper looks battle-worn
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on September 14, 2014, 03:23:16 PM
its a scout chopper light and fast

i just thought that was a great picture.  chopper looks battle-worn

I wonder if that plate next to the co-pilot is retractable armor plating. Would seem nonsensical to leave the crew totally exposed.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 14, 2014, 03:31:34 PM
They've already arrived in Iraq and are being assembled. The Iraqis have also bought Su-25's from Russia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1MNRj2xbuo
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Vulcan on September 14, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Why is there a Rubics Cube mounted on that kiowa?
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: WEZEL on September 14, 2014, 04:36:19 PM
Why is there a Rubics Cube mounted on that kiowa?

I was wondering the same thing  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: bozon on September 14, 2014, 04:56:21 PM
They've already arrived in Iraq and are being assembled. The Iraqis have also bought Su-25's from Russia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1MNRj2xbuo
Where ever the US will pull out of, Putin will take over. Egypt is also going soviet again after 30 years of buying red white and blue, and not out of choice.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 14, 2014, 05:11:40 PM
The Iraqis need stand-off canon capability with infrared sensors.  We've all seen the videos of the Apaches mowing downing insurgents with 30mm cannon at night from a couple kilometers away, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Rockets are very inaccurate, and are really an area fire weapon.  Hellfire missiles (or the Russian equivalent) are incredibly expensive.  Maintaining the Havocs and training competent crew members is going to be an extremely challenging task for the Iraqis.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on September 14, 2014, 07:38:03 PM
The Iraqis need stand-off canon capability with infrared sensors.  We've all seen the videos of the Apaches mowing downing insurgents with 30mm cannon at night from a couple kilometers away, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Rockets are very inaccurate, and are really an area fire weapon.  Hellfire missiles (or the Russian equivalent) are incredibly expensive.  Maintaining the Havocs and training competent crew members is going to be an extremely challenging task for the Iraqis.

The russian equivalent of hellfire is probably relatively inexpensive especially now that rubles exchange rate has sunk to bottom.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Rich46yo on September 14, 2014, 10:36:54 PM
Where ever the US will pull out of, Putin will take over. Egypt is also going soviet again after 30 years of buying red white and blue, and not out of choice.

Well what exactly is the threat level for Egypt and how much can they afford? We have been floating the place to the tune of Billions in years past. Do they really need Yank weapons and can they afford them? We've never really "sold" them anything. If they want to buy Russian we should thank them.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Brooke on September 15, 2014, 01:00:36 AM
Why is there a Rubics Cube mounted on that kiowa?

Also, why are bicycles strapped to the front of two of the tanks?  ;)
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: bozon on September 15, 2014, 01:07:25 AM
Well what exactly is the threat level for Egypt and how much can they afford? We have been floating the place to the tune of Billions in years past. Do they really need Yank weapons and can they afford them? We've never really "sold" them anything. If they want to buy Russian we should thank them.
This is not about economy (though you are wrong about what this means to US industry). This is about the sphere of influence - in case you have not noticed, the cold war is making a comeback. If the US chooses not to play the part of the super-power anymore it has the full right to do so, but I am not sure that most Americans consider the consequences.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on September 15, 2014, 03:57:36 AM
Also, why are bicycles strapped to the front of two of the tanks?  ;)

Desert can be a long walk when your tank blows up.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 15, 2014, 04:55:13 AM
The Iraqis are familiar with Russian equipment, and the Russians could deliver now. If they had ordered AH-64's when could Boeing have delivered them? The Iraqis need them now, not two years from now.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Scherf on September 15, 2014, 06:06:13 AM
^ Cue the F-35!

 :bolt:
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 15, 2014, 06:52:34 AM
What?  :huh
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Slash27 on September 15, 2014, 10:47:59 AM
its a scout chopper light and fast

i just thought that was a great picture.  chopper looks battle-worn
The sand makes the fluid leaks easy to spot.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 15, 2014, 05:01:40 PM
The Iraqis are familiar with Russian equipment, and the Russians could deliver now. If they had ordered AH-64's when could Boeing have delivered them? The Iraqis need them now, not two years from now.

The AH-64 is notoriously difficult to learn to fly.  It also requires a high level of weapons calibrations.  Even the British had a hard time maintaining and calibrating their Apaches in Afghanistan.  So this would obviously not be a good choice for the Iraqis. 
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Flench on September 15, 2014, 06:48:03 PM
Are those really bic's on the front of those tanks ? Look like Iraq would or could just hire some pilot's for the chopper's .
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Masherbrum on September 15, 2014, 09:08:13 PM
The AH-64 is notoriously difficult to learn to fly.  It also requires a high level of weapons calibrations.  Even the British had a hard time maintaining and calibrating their Apaches in Afghanistan.  So this would obviously not be a good choice for the Iraqis. 

But Nicholas Cage flew it with ease..........
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 16, 2014, 02:10:31 AM
Are those really bic's on the front of those tanks ? Look like Iraq would or could just hire some pilot's for the chopper's .

No. They look like stowed mine rollers or some other engineering gear.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: eagl on September 16, 2014, 11:19:17 PM
Nothing wrong with selling them hellfires...  We make them and will make a bit of profit, and the Iraqis have oil so they can afford it.  They're only about $150,000 each...

What they can't afford is to wait for our military sales procedures which can take 2-3 years just to sell a mil-spec flashlight.  To heck with contracts and laws, they have cash and they'll give it to whoever can deliver easy to use hardware tomorrow.  Turns out the US has to many laws and lawyers and politicians for us to compete for business in a country that actually NEEDS military hardware.  Too bad, we could have used the money.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: ozrocker on September 17, 2014, 07:57:05 AM
No. They look like stowed mine rollers or some other engineering gear.
Looks like rolls of Concertina wire, common for vehicles for setting up
Defensive Perimeter (lager).



                                                                                                                                            :cheers: Oz



                                                                                                               
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 17, 2014, 05:19:13 PM
Imo, the Iraqis need to focus on the actual ground war.  Equip their soldiers with body armor, NVGs, better radios, mine resistant vehicles, and tanks.  I think the Merkava would be the best choice.  I don't think there is enough time to train a helicopter cadre.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: 10thmd on September 17, 2014, 05:43:25 PM
That is concertina wire and that is the back of those tanks. Also they probably would not have to train completely from scratch on Helo pilots.... Most of their planes and helos where destroyed on the ground when we went in. I would bet most of their pilots survived the initial invasion and can still fly.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Groth on September 17, 2014, 06:39:15 PM
 I am confused...
 I expected a plane graveyard full of Douglas A-20 Havocs....
          Oh well                                                                  JGroth
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Rich46yo on September 18, 2014, 02:39:14 PM
This is not about economy (though you are wrong about what this means to US industry). This is about the sphere of influence - in case you have not noticed, the cold war is making a comeback. If the US chooses not to play the part of the super-power anymore it has the full right to do so, but I am not sure that most Americans consider the consequences.

Its not making a comeback Bozon. I dont know if you were alive for it, and I cant discuss Politics here, but at its heart the Cold War was an ideological battle for world wide domination of communism/socialism. Now its all about national interest in a multi-Polar world.

The Russians are simply doing business. Sure they would like to extend their sphere of influence on their periphery. But alliances are costly, as they learned when their empire came crashing down. The Hind is simply the right tool, for the right task, at the right price, for the job. And without having to get approved by a US Congress.

Correct me if Im wrong but dont the Iraqi's have experience and background with the Hind?
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 18, 2014, 02:54:34 PM
They had plenty of Hinds under Saddam. However the helo they've bought now is not the Hind, but the Havoc. A pure gunship like the Apache... Even looks like it.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/%D0%9C%D0%B8-28%D0%9D%D0%AD_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9C%D0%90%D0%9A%D0%A1-2007_(02).jpg)
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Flench on September 18, 2014, 04:12:34 PM
Looks like rolls of Concertina wire, common for vehicles for setting up
Defensive Perimeter (lager).



                                                                                                                                            :cheers: Oz



                                                                                                               


What I was thinking .
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on September 18, 2014, 09:16:54 PM
Absolutely junk

it's Commie-made after all
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on September 18, 2014, 09:18:11 PM
^ Cue the F-35!

 :bolt:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OD1RHS9mCjk/UwIj-KLqgDI/AAAAAAAAX7I/ZqHB89P0nDE/s1600/trash.jpg)
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Rich46yo on September 19, 2014, 10:41:08 PM
They had plenty of Hinds under Saddam. However the helo they've bought now is not the Hind, but the Havoc. A pure gunship like the Apache... Even looks like it.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/%D0%9C%D0%B8-28%D0%9D%D0%AD_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9C%D0%90%D0%9A%D0%A1-2007_(02).jpg)

I know but their entire rotary History and experience has been with Russian ones. I expect they will continue to buy a lot of Russians weapons. But last I heard the F16s were still on tract and they were seriously considering a South Korean light trainer/attack aircraft.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Rino on September 20, 2014, 10:58:18 AM
Imo, the Iraqis need to focus on the actual ground war.  Equip their soldiers with body armor, NVGs, better radios, mine resistant vehicles, and tanks.  I think the Merkava would be the best choice.  I don't think there is enough time to train a helicopter cadre.

     Israel selling their MBTs to Iraq??  Not in this universe.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: bozon on September 20, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
     Israel selling their MBTs to Iraq??  Not in this universe.
To Iraq? no.
To the Kurds if they get independence? I can see that happening. There are a lot of hush-hush things happening between Israel and the Kurds for years.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 20, 2014, 01:54:17 PM
I only suggested the Merkava being the best tank for Iraq's situation due to it being able to hold 6 troops in the back.  It is highly unlikely Israel would ever sell them to Iraq.  And the trophy system is a pipe dream too. 
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 20, 2014, 02:07:08 PM
What's even more unlikely is that the Iraqis would want to drive around in something that has "Made In Israel" written on it...
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: DaveBB on September 20, 2014, 11:23:27 PM
It could say "Made in Norway" for all I care.  If I was getting shot at and needed cover, I would definitely get in a Merkava. 
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 20, 2014, 11:33:54 PM
Sure you would, but you don't get to decide what tanks your government buys. A Muslim country buying Israeli hardware is as unlikely as Israel selling it to them.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: bozon on September 21, 2014, 11:02:40 AM
Sure you would, but you don't get to decide what tanks your government buys. A Muslim country buying Israeli hardware is as unlikely as Israel selling it to them.
Israel sold lots of arms, even advanced stuff to Muslim countries - but not to Arab Muslim countries. They would have sold more had the US did not prevent them from doing so (and selling arms themselves).
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: GScholz on September 21, 2014, 11:07:59 AM
Really? What Muslim countries have you guys sold arms to? How did the US prevent you from selling anything?
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: bozon on September 21, 2014, 02:07:04 PM
Really? What Muslim countries have you guys sold arms to? How did the US prevent you from selling anything?
Start with Turkey, then some African countries. Iran, in the past. Not sure about Azerbaijan and the Kurds these days, lots of rumors. Most of it was hushed or unofficial.

The US demands that Israel clears every defense-related deal with them. It was hilarious when a US surveillance plane photographed a Chinese fighter that intercepted it a few years ago and then the US officials freaked out because the missiles on that fighter were recognized as Israelis. The US forced Israel to cancel early-warning radar planes deals with China and India (aka the "falcon deals") making the Israeli companies to lose millions, only to sell India a similar (though inferior) plane themselves. For years Israel was forbidden from selling Kfir fighters because the engine was american (though some were manufactured under license in Israel if I am not mistaken). One of the reasons to the cancellation of the Lavi fighter project was the realization (through not so moderate pressure) that it competes directly with the F16 and the US will prevent any sales, thus killing all possibility to cover its development expenses. Many other examples. With respect to the Merkava suggestion above, there is absolutely no way the US will clear this - if anything, they will sell M1 Abrams instead.
Title: Re: Iraq bought a bunch of havocs
Post by: Rich46yo on September 21, 2014, 10:06:16 PM
Israel both uses, and has stolen, to much US tech to build their military tech. I wont say more. Investigate yourselves.



Start with Turkey, then some African countries. Iran, in the past. Not sure about Azerbaijan and the Kurds these days, lots of rumors. Most of it was hushed or unofficial.

The US demands that Israel clears every defense-related deal with them. It was hilarious when a US surveillance plane photographed a Chinese fighter that intercepted it a few years ago and then the US officials freaked out because the missiles on that fighter were recognized as Israelis. The US forced Israel to cancel early-warning radar planes deals with China and India (aka the "falcon deals") making the Israeli companies to lose millions, only to sell India a similar (though inferior) plane themselves. For years Israel was forbidden from selling Kfir fighters because the engine was american (though some were manufactured under license in Israel if I am not mistaken). One of the reasons to the cancellation of the Lavi fighter project was the realization (through not so moderate pressure) that it competes directly with the F16 and the US will prevent any sales, thus killing all possibility to cover its development expenses. Many other examples. With respect to the Merkava suggestion above, there is absolutely no way the US will clear this - if anything, they will sell M1 Abrams instead.