Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: DmonSlyr on September 18, 2014, 10:02:09 PM
-
I was finally able to get a good film I wanted of this maneuver. Very important for defensive flying!
I don't know why the sound is not working, this is my first video I've posted to youtube.
Enjoy!
P.S Thank me later :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8)
-
What I use to get most of my defensive kills in the 110. The roll I use isn't quite that tight, however.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially a Barrel Roll Defense, like what has been shown since this old (2006?) animation? http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif
Yours is certainly a nice roll to set up the shot, but I believe your break turn into the attacker prior to the roll makes the whole ACM shown more than just a loaded roll, and puts it into the realm of the BRD, no? (I'm not saying what you show is wrong, as it's a great maneuver, I just want to confirm my understanding of a loaded roll as a maneuver vs. the BRD as combined ACM is correct.)
Cool film with pilot view. And very nice shot at the end!
<S>
Ryno
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially a Barrel Roll Defense, like what has been shown since this old (2006?) animation? http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif
Yours is certainly a nice roll to set up the shot, but I believe your break turn into the attacker prior to the roll makes the whole ACM shown more than just a loaded roll, and puts it into the realm of the BRD, no? (I'm not saying what you show is wrong, as it's a great maneuver, I just want to confirm my understanding of a loaded roll as a maneuver vs. the BRD as combined ACM is correct.)
Cool film with pilot view. And very nice shot at the end!
<S>
Ryno
Essentially, it could be 2 different maneuvers combined. A nose down turn fist, then a loaded roll, it is not a direct barrel roll and this roll generally works simultaneously with a nose down turn.
It is a half loop then a roll to conceive the angle, the illusion makes it seem like it could be a barrel roll or a loop, when it is actually both. It would not be a BRD because it's more extreme in the vertical. The nose down turn is designed to kill the opponents E by forcing them to make a tough angle shot, then follow you vertical as you are performing the loaded roll over them.
Another way to explain.
The tough angle shot forces them to blackout or lose sight of you, as you are positioned under their nose, then you pull the loaded roll and use their momentum from the nose down turn to their disadvantage by doing an opposite direction loaded roll over the top for a quick snap shot as they go in the vertical.
And yes the video does demonstrate that maneuver as well. I haven't seen that film in a while.
-
Hey DmonSlyr,
I just watched your youtube video...... nice set up and shooting :aok
whether one is using a nose low break turn to force the overshoot for the beginning of a barrel roll defense, a rolling scissors, or what have you, they all pretty much start out the same way.........
sometimes one can even be going nose high and preform the same break turn followed with barrel roll, provided they have enough E to follow through with it...
the key is forcing your opponent to follow "Their Greed" or "Fixation on you" baiting them in... that's where they are flying what's known as gunsight bfm..... not actually being able to see the fight in a 3-D perspective
If that Yak in your video had their mindset in the right place, they would of went high and away from your down and right turn heading........ this is where SA steps in and people playing can only learn from experiencing this type of fight over and over several hundreds of times.... some finally get and can eventually see it coming, while others never will... and will keep on falling for it......
btw.... is one of my favorite maneuvers to do.... also love a good elongated rolling scissors duel.....
<S>
TC of the Damned
-
Hey DmonSlyr,
I just watched your youtube video...... nice set up and shooting :aok
whether one is using a nose low break turn to force the overshoot for the beginning of a barrel roll defense, a rolling scissors, or what have you, they all pretty much start out the same way.........
sometimes one can even be going nose high and preform the same break turn followed with barrel roll, provided they have enough E to follow through with it...
the key is forcing your opponent to follow "Their Greed" or "Fixation on you" baiting them in... that's where they are flying what's known as gunsight bfm..... not actually being able to see the fight in a 3-D perspective
If that Yak in your video had their mindset in the right place, they would of went high and away from your down and right turn heading........ this is where SA steps in and people playing can only learn from experiencing this type of fight over and over several hundreds of times.... some finally get and can eventually see it coming, while others never will... and will keep on falling for it......
btw.... is one of my favorite maneuvers to do.... also love a good elongated rolling scissors duel.....
<S>
TC of the Damned
Yes, this move works great against people who are not aware they are getting pulled into a maneauver death trap.
I wanted to share this maneuver to prove to some of the new guys that defensive flying has its perks. You don't have to run away!
Also If you are going slow and have planes diving on you constantly, this is the move to learn.
If the yak would have pulled up into a loop to come back around, I would have pulled the same maneuver again. Although it gets a bit tougher each time as the enemy gets slower and slower every time they pull for another loop, however if you can get them slow by doing this, they will eventually follow thinking they can hit you. If you pull the manauver on a plane that is going pretty slow and you are able to get around on them, they will be stuck right in your sights for an easy kill.
-
It is a half loop then a roll to conceive the angle, the illusion makes it seem like it could be a barrel roll or a loop, when it is actually both. It would not be a BRD because it's more extreme in the vertical. The nose down turn is designed to kill the opponents E by forcing them to make a tough angle shot, then follow you vertical as you are performing the loaded roll over them.
Oh, I do understand the maneuver(s) used. The distinction I was trying to clarify and perhaps get confirmation on is the difference between the single maneuver of a "loaded roll" vs. a "Barrel Roll Defense" -- in other words BFM vs. ACM. It's kind of a semantics thing, but an important one in my opinion, especially for newer folks trying to grasp the difference. I think of a "loaded roll" as a single maneuver, whereas the Barrel Roll defense is ACM -- applying and adapting several maneuvers into a dynamic combat setting to gain advantage against an opponent.
I think just calling this a "loaded roll" is selling yourself a bit short, actually. The whole ACM is more complex than that. You make a nice nose low break turn (increasing the closure rate and making it impossible for the Yak to pull lead -- as you said), then force the overshoot with a roll over the top, all while keeping the enemy sight to see how he reacts (another important distinction between BFM and ACM). Since the Yak keeps turning, you roll your nose into a lead angle for the shot (again, nicely executed) and then make an excellent snap shot. I think all of these put together are important to point out.
That is also why I think I would still categorize this as a BRD, despite the "size" of the roll (though extreme in the vertical, as you said). I guess I was looking for someone to back me up on that idea. Just as TC said the nature of the break turn (nose high or nose low) can vary, so too can the size (or vertical aspect) of the roll vary, depending on what you need to force the overshoot (which depends on the relative speed of the attacker).
Regardless of what we agree to call it, the film is a good example of how to use the attackers speed, and (more importantly) over-aggressiveness, against them. Nicely done.
<S>
Ryno
-
I always thought this was a BRD...
-
Oh, I do understand the maneuver(s) used. The distinction I was trying to clarify and perhaps get confirmation on is the difference between the single maneuver of a "loaded roll" vs. a "Barrel Roll Defense" -- in other words BFM vs. ACM. It's kind of a semantics thing, but an important one in my opinion, especially for newer folks trying to grasp the difference. I think of a "loaded roll" as a single maneuver, whereas the Barrel Roll defense is ACM -- applying and adapting several maneuvers into a dynamic combat setting to gain advantage against an opponent.
I think just calling this a "loaded roll" is selling yourself a bit short, actually. The whole ACM is more complex than that. You make a nice nose low break turn (increasing the closure rate and making it impossible for the Yak to pull lead -- as you said), then force the overshoot with a roll over the top, all while keeping the enemy sight to see how he reacts (another important distinction between BFM and ACM). Since the Yak keeps turning, you roll your nose into a lead angle for the shot (again, nicely executed) and then make an excellent snap shot. I think all of these put together are important to point out.
That is also why I think I would still categorize this as a BRD, despite the "size" of the roll (though extreme in the vertical, as you said). I guess I was looking for someone to back me up on that idea. Just as TC said the nature of the break turn (nose high or nose low) can vary, so too can the size (or vertical aspect) of the roll vary, depending on what you need to force the overshoot (which depends on the relative speed of the attacker).
Regardless of what we agree to call it, the film is a good example of how to use the attackers speed, and (more importantly) over-aggressiveness, against them. Nicely done.
<S>
Ryno
Thanks a lot for the comments.
Yeah I always just assumed it was a single ACM. But I definitely do think it could be separated into 2 different maneuvers because you dont have to do the roll, However, I wouldn't recommend doing this loaded roll without first going into the nose down turn. I'm not a real pilot so I cannot accurately interpret the correct connotation of the maneuvers and I haven't directly studied it so I'm not sure which to call it.
The reason I don't think it is directly a BRD is because a BRD would happen if both of you were in a scissors at close range and you got into the position of being able to cut engine and do a right BR over the the top to squeeze inside of them. Or if f they are going extremely fast and you had to do a quick roll as they speed past you for an over shoot. So yes you'd still have to enter a slight verticle angle but not extreme and its more of a quick roll rather than a loop to roll technique.
The loaded roll is mainly performed when you are forced to go into a nose down turn. And you made a good point kingpin, when I do the nose down turn, I try get as close to them as possible (without them hitting me) to shorten the distance. The tighter you can make the turn the easier it is to do the loaded roll over them and the heavier they black out in the turn.
I also attempt to get enemies in this "advantage" position when they are maybe about to HO me. Instead of flying straigt at them, turn left or right, give them a very tough shot to make, and when they miss, you can perform this same loaded roll to gain their 6 after the merge.
This move
-
When you combine a roll input and a pitch up the result is a ___________ .
A. Lag displacement roll
B. Barrel roll
C. Corkscrew
D. Loaded roll
E. All of the above
-
When you combine a roll input and a pitch up the result is a ___________ .
A. Lag displacement roll
B. Barrel roll
C. Corkscrew
D. Loaded roll
E. All of the above
:x :x :x :x :x :x :x
Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS........ It's A,B,C,D and maybe just E..... :bolt:
:salute
-
:x :x :x :x :x :x :x
Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS........ It's A,B,C,D and maybe just E..... :bolt:
:salute
Good answer Morf, and the most accurate one since there's no discussion or apparent awareness of lift vector application going on.
-
since there's no discussion or apparent awareness of lift vector application going on.
Another good point, Puma.
I was starting by trying to make the distinction between the "loaded roll" just being one maneuver and the Barrel Roll Defense being the overall ACM.
<S>
Ryno
-
It's good you recognize there is a difference. Not pointing at you or anyone else here, but when a statement is made that "when you see this, do this loaded barrel roll" to defeat it (AS AN EXAMPLE FOR DISCUSSION) without any discussion about lift vector and how it should be applied, it suggests a lack of basic BFM fundamentals. It's not possible to say, when you see a guy do this, pull a double ratsinfrats out of your bag of tricks and you'll defeat him. Dogfighting is a very fluid situation and requires constant adjustments to counter the opponent. So, suggesting a loaded roll will defeat this situation or that, most likely won't work. The opponent will see your loaded roll and adjust his lift vector to counter the move he/she sees. :salute
-
The loaded roll is mainly performed when you are forced to go into a nose down turn.
Why is that?
-
Thanks a lot for the comments.
You're welcome for the comments, as I think there are some good points to be made on this topic.
The first is the difference between BFM (Basic Flight Maneuvers) vs. ACM (Air Combat Maneuvering).
Yeah I always just assumed it was a single ACM.
Here is where I think the confusion is coming from. There isn't really a "single ACM". ACM (Air Combat Maneuvering) is applying basic maneuvers to a combat situation in order to defeat an opponent.
Saying your film shows a loaded roll is saying it is one maneuver. What is it really showing is ACM, a series of maneuvers used to convert a defensive position into an offensive one. In this case, a form of the Barrel Roll Defense, which is not a maneuver but is ACM.
The reason I don't think it is directly a BRD is because a BRD would happen if both of you were in a scissors at close range and you got into the position of being able to cut engine and do a right BR over the the top to squeeze inside of them.
The BRD is defensive ACM, so not something you'd do in a close scissors. A scissors generally implies closer E-states, so if you were barrel rolling while in a close scissors, it would be a rolling scissors (still using a barrel roll, but not the BRD).
Or if f they are going extremely fast and you had to do a quick roll as they speed past you for an over shoot. So yes you'd still have to enter a slight verticle angle but not extreme and its more of a quick roll rather than a loop to roll technique.
This is kind of my point, it's still a BRD despite the size of the barrel roll used. Yes, you can just do a tighter one against planes that can't turn to pull lead on you in a tighter roll (generally someone coming in much faster than you) but it's a BRD despite how you set it up and how tight you roll to execute the reversal.
I think what you are calling a "half loop" is actually the first half of a large barrel roll. It feels like loop because there is a lot of vertical, but you have a roll component in during nearly all of the maneuver and actually "roll around" the Yak's flight path. That's the BRD. Part of what makes it feel like you "loop" back into him is his pulling up back into you.
Again, I'm not trying to pick apart your film, as it is an excellent display of ACM. My point is to distinguish between a single maneuver (like a loaded roll or barrel roll) and the overall ACM application of the BRD, because I think this discussion might be helpful to others.
<S>
Ryno
-
when a statement is made that "when you see this, do this loaded barrel roll" to defeat it (AS AN EXAMPLE FOR DISCUSSION) without any discussion about lift vector and how it should be applied, it suggests a lack of basic BFM fundamentals. It's not possible to say, when you see a guy do this, pull a double ratsinfrats out of your bag of tricks and you'll defeat him. Dogfighting is a very fluid situation and requires constant adjustments to counter the opponent.
I couldn't agree more! I've always found it interesting how simple air combat can seem when you just think in terms of lift vector and lead angle (why doesn't it always seem that simple when I'm flying though!?) :)
One reason I was trying to emphasize the difference between a "maneuver" and ACM here is because I agree with you that some players fall into the oversimplification trap of "do this move", instead of thinking about all the variables in a "IF this, THEN do THIS, in THAT way" approach. The "just do this move" explanation is like teaching someone to play chess without them looking at the opponent's side of the board. Or like running an offense without looking at what the defense is running.
I use those two analogies a lot, depending on if I'm talking to a chess player or sports player. To extend the analogy: BFM is like learning how chess pieces move or how to run with a football. ACM is like learning chess openings or how to run the read-option offense.
<S>
Ryno
-
Yep, .......crawl, walk, run! :aok
-
Why is that?
So really in truly, I am most likely not correct with my terminology, as I have never actually "studied" flight combat in actuality. That being said, I wasn't sure of the difference in context you were talking about, but I do know what I am flying about :)
I thank you guys for presenting this in a direction for me to understand the difference in terminology without belittling my understanding of each concept. I presumably was not sure of the direct difference, and here is why...
To answer your question as well Puma,
This move is not a "you should do this every time just like this type trick". But, I think you should hahaha. If you would like, I can post another film of a fight I had against a spit vs my g14 where he had more E than me and started the fight on my 6. then I made him kill his E. The video will demonstrate how effective this maneuver works throughout a fight vs a plane that has the advantage in its entirety.
The reason why you should be in nose down turn, is because it works best when the pilot is blacking out or attempting to get a lead shot on you. The whole idea is to a get out of their sights but also let them "think" they can get a shot on you. The nose down turn is the least risky way to set yourself up to perform a counter attack against an unsuspecting player. This moves gives you a chance to land a couple of shots, rather than just getting away from the attacker. It would very difficult to make this maneuver work without first setting your opponent up with a nose down turn.
This is why I was unaware that a BRD was an ACM rather than just a Maneuver. When a Loaded Roll would just be a maneuver rather than a steady stream ACM all in one attack.
Thank you,
:salute Violator
This move, if you want to be effective against defending faster planes, is one I would highly recommend learning.
-
Great discussion guys!
This puts a lot of things into perspective for a guy like me who isn't to knowledgeable of such things.
-
Now, figuring more than 90% of the players we have don't understand nor can they recognize these types of maneuvers.... making it a good move to learn, can you imagine what this game would be like if you could convince half of those that there is more than "pointing your nose at the other guy"?
The fights would be.........
what for it......................
EPIC! :D
-
One point about semantics is that the USAF and USN use some terms differently. What the USAF manual calls BFM the USN manual refers to as ACM and allows BFM as an alternate term for basic ACM.
-
So really in truly, I am most likely not correct with my terminology, as I have never actually "studied" flight combat in actuality.
This move is not a "you should do this every time just like this type trick". But, I think you should hahaha.
This is why I was unaware that a BRD was an ACM rather than just a Maneuver. When a Loaded Roll would just be a maneuver rather than a steady stream ACM all in one attack.
I'm glad you see my point about a maneuver vs. ACM, because that's also what I'm trying to point out -- not just the semantics, but also that ACM is recognizing the dynamics of the fight and knowing the correct maneuver in a given situation. No one move is a "cure all".
I agree the Barrel Roll Defense is something everyone should know, but it isn't something that is always going to work, in the sense of creating an overshoot and a reversal that results in a firing solution. In the analysis of your film, you have to recognize that the Yak made mistakes which allowed you to get the shot. You make an excellent move to set him up for that, but an important dynamic to acknowledge is what the opponent did or didn't do.
For example, what if the attacker recognized what you are doing when you break turn into him (increasing closure rate, forcing an overshoot and defeating a shot lead angle) and he doesn't go for the shot and instead goes up, using a lag roll (lag displacement roll or high yo-yo) which keeps him behind your 3/9 line? Then the following vertical component of your maneuver may not work. In fact, he could wind up with a shot on you as you climb in front of him.
If he then continues to keep the pressure on while remaining behind your 3/9 line, and you continue to break turn (rinse and repeat), eventually you run out of E (either insufficient speed to go vertical or altitude left to break low). The BRD is effective at defeating a guns pass by a higher speed AC, but it does rely on some level of over-aggressiveness by the attacker in order to yield a reversal and shot.
That's really my point about BFM vs. ACM. With ACM you have to take in account all the variables: energy states, AC performance characteristics and most importantly what the opponent is doing. If your opponent doesn't play right into your hand, then a certain "move" may not get the result you want. You also have to recognize when a move will work and when it won't work -- in my opinion, THAT'S ACM in a nutshell, applying the correct move for the given situation.
Again, your film is an excellent example of how to reverse an overly aggressive opponent attacking you with speed advantage, but I think both the reversal maneuvers made and the mistakes of the opponent need to be acknowledged to recognize why it worked, in order for this to be a good learning tool.
<S>
Ryno
-
Imagine what the fights would be like
...
EPIC! :D
Yes. In fact, a recent fight comes to mind where I was jumped by two higher, faster mustangs 1v2, in an angles fight no less against my 190. I won, but the fight might've ended differently had the pilots known some basic maneuvers. The general population could definitely use some ACM education.
-
I'm glad you see my point about a maneuver vs. ACM, because that's also what I'm trying to point out -- not just the semantics, but also that ACM is recognizing the dynamics of the fight and knowing the correct maneuver in a given situation. No one move is a "cure all".
I agree the Barrel Roll Defense is something everyone should know, but it isn't something that is always going to work, in the sense of creating an overshoot and a reversal that results in a firing solution. In the analysis of your film, you have to recognize that the Yak made mistakes which allowed you to get the shot. You make an excellent move to set him up for that, but an important dynamic to acknowledge is what the opponent did or didn't do.
For example, what if the attacker recognized what you are doing when you break turn into him (increasing closure rate, forcing an overshoot and defeating a shot lead angle) and he doesn't go for the shot and instead goes up, using a lag roll (lag displacement roll or high yo-yo) which keeps him behind your 3/9 line? Then the following vertical component of your maneuver may not work. In fact, he could wind up with a shot on you as you climb in front of him.
If he then continues to keep the pressure on while remaining behind your 3/9 line, and you continue to break turn (rinse and repeat), eventually you run out of E (either insufficient speed to go vertical or altitude left to break low). The BRD is effective at defeating a guns pass by a higher speed AC, but it does rely on some level of over-aggressiveness by the attacker in order to yield a reversal and shot.
That's really my point about BFM vs. ACM. With ACM you have to take in account all the variables: energy states, AC performance characteristics and most importantly what the opponent is doing. If your opponent doesn't play right into your hand, then a certain "move" may not get the result you want. You also have to recognize when a move will work and when it won't work -- in my opinion, THAT'S ACM in a nutshell, applying the correct move for the given situation.
Again, your film is an excellent example of how to reverse an overly aggressive opponent attacking you with speed advantage, but I think both the reversal maneuvers made and the mistakes of the opponent need to be acknowledged to recognize why it worked, in order for this to be a good learning tool.
<S>
Ryno
In that type of situation the manauever is based on judgement. Initially, some people do pull up, which is the smart thing to do. You are in a defenseive position so generally you would have less E. In the position there, I had to judge E, cut throttle, and put a notch of flaps in, that's something that is hard to know in the video without sound. It looks a lot easier performed here than it actually is. That's why I don't personally consider it a BFM. He wasn't going that fast. But just fast enough to catch me. If you noticed, he had stall limiter on. He could have cut throttle a lot more and stayed in the turn better. But I would have pushed it harder too. Pull up go round and round, he should have killed me. He didn't see it coming, that's the point, and most people dont.
I honestly don't think there is a better defensive maneuver. When a plane has a considerable amount of E, there ain't much you can do to stay out of there sights and then get a chance to hit them too.
-
Rolling when loaded is admittedly fun.
BTW, it looked like a barrel role defense to me.
-
I honestly don't think there is a better defensive maneuver. When a plane has a considerable amount of E, there ain't much you can do to stay out of there sights and then get a chance to hit them too.
If you don't know the fundamentals and always depend on your best move, eventually someone who does know the fundamentals will come along, easily counter your best move, and lower the hammer. Be alert he is lurking about waiting for you. :uhoh :salute
-
On fualt. I realise that you can perform the maneuver while going into a nose high turn and then doing the roll to spiral climb tecnique. As i was experimenting tonight. However, as Rynorush mention to me in a conversation we had earlier tonight, these would both be BRD but different forms of the trick. So ultimately I'd like to point out that the BRD can incorporate each of these tactics. So with that being said, I think what I wanted to show in that video was the exact move I was trying to demonstrate when having to go into a nose down turn.
From the video you could not see or be able to understand his E state. But it was the correct move to perform during the circumstances. So I wanted the community to see the move on film in its entirety.
-
If you don't know the fundamentals and always depend on your best move, eventually someone who does know the fundamentals will come along, easily counter your best move, and lower the hammer. Be alert he is lurking about waiting for you. :uhoh :salute
First: I wouldn't call this move a "fundamental" trick, and you must know the fundamentals to perform this properly.
Second: There is no better defensive trick to use other than this one in this type of situation.
3rd: Yes there are people who know how to defend against this trick, but that's is obligatory because they are in the advantage and it should be avoidable. Being in the disadvantage with a plane that is going faster than you starting on your is a tough position. The attacker will get greedy and impatient almost every time. Depending on their plane, you can almost get them into this position every time.
4th. I can garauntee you Puma, that if we were to meet in the MA, without you knowing it was me, and you saw a low 109g14 to pounce on, you would almost certainly follow me in the turn unless you were I90d or something or had way too much speed. I promises you that you would fall for it.
5th: I could show you some other tricks in AH that would completely suprise you. So while you may know what you are writing, I don't think you'd have a very good time seeing how well they get performed against you in the virtual skies of AH. Just saying.
-
4th. I can garauntee you Puma, that if we were to meet in the MA, without you knowing it was me, and you saw a low 109g14 to pounce on, you would almost certainly follow me in the turn unless you were I90d or something or had way too much speed. I promises you that you would fall for it.
This statement proves that you don't know the fundamentals nor do you seem interested in them. One thing for sure, you can't guarantee or promise anything. Your best move is all you've got.
-
Your best move is all you've got.
That may be overstating things a bit. I may not always agree with Violator, but he's a good stick.
Just sayin', sir. :salute
-
Nice Violator. :aok
-
Some players want to know the tricks and some players want to understand how to use energy, turn rate, and geometry to win fights. Sometimes they end up doing the same thing but they talk about it differently. :D
-
This statement proves that you don't know the fundamentals nor do you seem interested in them. One thing for sure, you can't guarantee or promise anything. Your best move is all you've got.
Lol. With all do respect, I don't think you understand what I was trying to accomplish with this video, nor do you have an idea about why I pefrormed this maneuver in the first place. If you don't think I know "fundamentals" in AH flight model you got another thing coming.
Please enlighten me on how you would perform a defensive tactic on plane with more speed, E, and alt, especially when you don't have a ton of speed and are low to begin with.
I rarely see people even attempt this maneuver, much less any real defense technique that is valuable to their survival while attempting to get a kill from it aswell. That is why I posted this.
Tbh I don't think you'd stand a chance vs me with all the "fundamentals" I know in AH.
-
Lol. With all do respect, I don't think you understand what I was trying to accomplish with this video, nor do you have an idea about why I pefrormed this maneuver in the first place. If you don't think I know "fundamentals" in AH flight model you got another thing coming.
Please enlighten me on how you would perform a defensive tactic on plane with more speed, E, and alt, especially when you don't have a ton of speed and are low to begin with.
I rarely see people even attempt this maneuver, much less any real defense technique that is valuable to their survival while attempting to get a kill from it aswell. That is why I posted this.
Tbh I don't think you'd stand a chance vs me with all the "fundamentals" I know in AH.
Hey gents, can I respectfully request we try to keep this civil and leave the ego out of it?! The Training Forum is not the place for "I am better than you" arguments, and the ACM topics in discussion are too valuable to get the thread locked.
Let me play peacemaker here for a second and point out that BOTH Violator and Puma have valid points:
First, Violator, I don't think Puma is trying to discredit your film. I think he agrees with me that it is a good example of a form of the BRD. All I believe Puma is trying to do is make a counterpoint to the idea that "this is the best move" -- because even the BRD will not work all the time. He is correct in stating that. You are correct in saying it is a valid move "for that situation" because it was. The two points aren't mutually exclusive.
Your film is a great example of a well executed BRD reversal, but it's important for people to know that the move can be countered and won't always yield the same result (a reversal and kill shot). Personally, I believe there are many pilots (those who tend to fight with energy advantage) who do know how to counter it. I think you know this, Violator, so I am not directing that comment at you. I (and probably Puma as well) are simply saying these things so that OTHERS who don't know as much about ACM who read this thread see that point as well.
You said you "rarely see people even attempt this maneuver" -- which I believe is true. I have observed you fighting and I think there is a reason you may not see it used a lot. You fight very aggressively and tend to convert your E for angles to go for the kill -- even in a multi-con situation. Nothing wrong with that, it's just one fun way to fly. You know you are good at fighting defensively, so you don't worry about losing your E, getting slower and putting yourself at a disadvantage. Again, this is no criticism, just an observation as someone who has fought you in the MA.
Perhaps one reason you may not see your move as often as I do (or maybe Puma does) might be a function of angles fighting vs. E fighting. I tend to fly the Pony, Corsair and (to a lesser extent) Dora -- all planes where you generally want to keep fast in a mulit-con combat zone and be careful about using up your E. When I do fly these (and because I do) I tend to see others using the BRD quite a bit. I will say that when I do see someone use that move, it alerts me to the fact that I am fighting against someone who knows what they are doing.
That said, I also see plenty of players who DON'T use the BRD effectively, and could probably benefit from seeing your film. That's why I feel this is an important discussion.
But, it's important they understand what they are seeing and know when/why it may not work. That's why I chimed in (and probably Puma too -- though I'm carefully trying not to put words in his mouth), not to criticize your film, but rather to expand the discussion of it.
Hope that clears the air a little, gents.
<S>
Ryno
-
every BFM...ACM...has a counter move that will put you in better position...
there is no one perfect maneuver...
the real fighters are the ones that deploy the correct BFM and ACM at the correct time.
and most importantly they land their hits and make the kills.
IMO
skill set to be practiced to become an AH stick worthy of fighting.
Aim>SA>BFM<ACM
-
Hey gents, can I respectfully request we try to keep this civil and leave the ego out of it?! The Training Forum is not the place for "I am better than you" arguments, and the ACM topics in discussion are too valuable to get the thread locked.
Let me play peacemaker here for a second and point out that BOTH Violator and Puma have valid points:
First, Violator, I don't think Puma is trying to discredit your film. I think he agrees with me that it is a good example of a form of the BRD. All I believe Puma is trying to do is make a counterpoint to the idea that "this is the best move" -- because even the BRD will not work all the time. He is correct in stating that. You are correct in saying it is a valid move "for that situation" because it was. The two points aren't mutually exclusive.
Your film is a great example of a well executed BRD reversal, but it's important for people to know that the move can be countered and won't always yield the same result (a reversal and kill shot). Personally, I believe there are many pilots (those who tend to fight with energy advantage) who do know how to counter it. I think you know this, Violator, so I am not directing that comment at you. I (and probably Puma as well) are simply saying these things so that OTHERS who don't know as much about ACM who read this thread see that point as well.
You said you "rarely see people even attempt this maneuver" -- which I believe is true. I have observed you fighting and I think there is a reason you may not see it used a lot. You fight very aggressively and tend to convert your E for angles to go for the kill -- even in a multi-con situation. Nothing wrong with that, it's just one fun way to fly. You know you are good at fighting defensively, so you don't worry about losing your E, getting slower and putting yourself at a disadvantage. Again, this is no criticism, just an observation as someone who has fought you in the MA.
Perhaps one reason you may not see your move as often as I do (or maybe Puma does) might be a function of angles fighting vs. E fighting. I tend to fly the Pony, Corsair and (to a lesser extent) Dora -- all planes where you generally want to keep fast in a mulit-con combat zone and be careful about using up your E. When I do fly these (and because I do) I tend to see others using the BRD quite a bit. I will say that when I do see someone use that move, it alerts me to the fact that I am fighting against someone who knows what they are doing.
That said, I also see plenty of players who DON'T use the BRD effectively, and could probably benefit from seeing your film. That's why I feel this is an important discussion.
But, it's important they understand what they are seeing and know when/why it may not work. That's why I chimed in (and probably Puma too -- though I'm carefully trying not to put words in his mouth), not to criticize your film, but rather to expand the discussion of it.
Hope that clears the air a little, gents.
<S>
Ryno
That's true ryno I am very aggressive while flying. I'm not the most patient fighter in the MA hehe but I do get a lot of kills this way. I have become pretty good in defensive flying as BnZ is boring to me and I tend to fly slower planes therefore I get jumped a lot.
I wanted to show players that there is another method besides running or extending away or not knowing what to do and just flat spinning hoping they miss. This is a way to to avoid the attack possibly, get a shot, and still have enough E just in case you can't get a shot and they roll back around.
This is a move that takes timing, reading E, and knowing your plane's stall and E characteristics. Like I said before, this move is not as easy as it looks in the film and doing it correctly takes a lot of practise. Especially with people who are going slower, who avoid it the first or second time, or are good shots. I even sometimes let people think they are gonna get a shot on me, they typically miss, and this sets me up for a good roll around on them.
I am going to attempt to post another film today of a full on fight with me in a 109g14 vs a spit8 that has alt, E, and starts on my 6 to begin the fight. I fight the whole entire fight in defensive mode. Maybe this will be a better video of defensive flying techniques.
-
I'm not going to be able to post it. I don't have the right software to use and the only lowest quality Id want to go only plays 20 seconds of the it.
Oh well
-
THanks for posting Violator, more food for the "noodle" to ponder. I love these kind of discussions, it helps those of us still in the lower end of the learning curve to see ways to improve our skills and land more of our kills. As for me, just surviving the attack is an accomplishment. :D
-
THanks for posting Violator, more food for the "noodle" to ponder. I love these kind of discussions, it helps those of us still in the lower end of the learning curve to see ways to improve our skills and land more of our kills. As for me, just surviving the attack is an accomplishment. :D
You're welcome jimmyD.
This move gets me out of a lot of trouble and if performed correctly is certain to get you in a neutral position with the attacker if they give up there E states. The hardest part is timing and stall control but hopefully by watching this video you can get a good idea of what the maneuver looks like when it is performed inside the cockpit.
-
If both pilots recognized what was going on this could turn into a scissors fight correct? I have done this quite a bit and seems 99% of the times turns into a rolling scissors fight, which I LOVE :rock
-
If both pilots recognized what was going on this could turn into a scissors fight correct? I have done this quite a bit and seems 99% of the times turns into a rolling scissors fight, which I LOVE :rock
Yes that is the goal. This way you can use their E against them if they aren't sure what to do after an overshoot. If they attempt to roll over after the overshoot, you will be able to roll sharper in the scissors because you are initially slower, which then if performed correcly, puts the fight to your advantage.
-
I use this move and believe it to be a version of the BRD. Regardless of what you call it, it does work. More importantly, it works well.
Good shooting BTW.. I usually get them in front of me, but the shooting part is my undoing. :aok
-
Yes that is the goal. This way you can use their E against them if they aren't sure what to do after an overshoot. If they attempt to roll over after the overshoot, you will be able to roll sharper in the scissors because you are initially slower, which then if performed correcly, puts the fight to your advantage.
That is correct But remember he move laterally the least wins. That means the plane with the highest E will have the advantage as long as he tries to stay behind your 3-9 line. Most pilots don't remember that. IF a slower plane begins a rolling scissors rememeber to travel vertically behind his 3-9 line.
Also use God's G to turn at the top of the scissors. Also use throttle control coming through the bottom of your loops.
-
I use this move and believe it to be a version of the BRD. Regardless of what you call it, it does work. More importantly, it works well.
Good shooting BTW.. I usually get them in front of me, but the shooting part is my undoing. :aok
Thanks. Yes BRD is the actual name, I actually didn't know the name and had heard the term "loaded roll" somewhere before. But we cleared that up in the discussion.
That is correct But remember he move laterally the least wins. That means the plane with the highest E will have the advantage as long as he tries to stay behind your 3-9 line. Most pilots don't remember that. IF a slower plane begins a rolling scissors rememeber to travel vertically behind his 3-9 line.
Also use God's G to turn at the top of the scissors. Also use throttle control coming through the bottom of your loops.
Unfortunately, you cannot hear the sound, but I cut throttle at the top and use a notch of flaps. I do want to say though, that it is a judgment issue how how high you want to do the roll. If they are going really fast use more of a corkscrew roll, if they are going slow to your speed you really need to get as far past that 3-9 as you can in the vert and then roll over. A lot of times people don't lift up high enough and the move puts you in a easy kill.
You are right about the overshoot. The plane overshooting should pull up into a split S behind the 3-9 and either do another split S to completely rope them or continue the spiral up over them hoping they follow.
The reason why it worked well here is because the dude wasnt going quite fast enough so when he overshot was close enough for me to get a shot. The goal is to get them to slightly have more E in the end so that they over shoot but cannot climb up, back, and away without being in your sights. It is a very timing, judgmental, and patience trick.
-
(http://www.simplecomfortfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/loaded-steakhouse-sandwich.jpg)
My idea of a loaded roll. :lol
Thanks for posting, Violator... Good stuff. :salute