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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 05:13:40 PM

Title: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Ground units/AI and otherwise. Sea units, AI and otherwise. Order of development that doesn't overwhelm the developers but can still offer an immediate draw for potential players and benefit for the existing base (whether ma or event-driven or both).

On a bit by bit basis (whether it's a 'test the waters' thing or a dedicated plan to introduce a broader aspect to the game) I would be glad to see 2 things added:

1. a Japanese carrier

2. C-47s given 'formation' capability and various ground capture targets taking different numbers to capture (why destroy everything to white flag something when you can capture your targets intact? - Maybe, technically, it would be a third wish to see drunks engaging if dropped within a certain vicinity of each other (or a defending force being approached by invaders).

One, two or three things with what I perceive to be a degree of developer difficulty that increases in order of request.
Title: Re: Hey, Sax!
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 05:18:18 PM
Ok, here's my two posts from the F8F thread:

Surface Fleets:

I would add several classes of each ship type, covering the Early, Mid and Late war periods, and include vessels from the four main navies (USN, RN, Kriegsmarine, and IJN). I'd expand the types of fleets as well. IE:

Carrier Battle Group - Surface fleet essentially as it is now (CV, CA and DD escorts) but remove LVTs and PTs, cannot pass within 25 miles of shore.
Light Battle Group - Surface fleet with a CVL and CL in place of the CV and CA (CV vs. CVL can be determined by tonnage. IIRC, most British CVs would be considered CVLs rather than full-sized CVs).
Bombardment Group - Surface fleet replacing CV with a BB.
Landing Group - Consisting of 1 CVE (limited plane set; TBM, F4F, FM2, A6M, B5N, D3A, etc.) 1 LST (LVTs) and escorts of DEs.

Removing landing craft from the CV and BB groups means those two battle groups will now be a bit more realistically used, especially if you increase their closest approach to shore out to 25 miles (distance chosen since that's how far two bases on land should be) for the CV, and perhaps 15 miles for the BB (should still place it in guns range of shore targets). The landing group will be able to approach close enough to deploy LVTs (with the LST acting as a VH; destroy that and the group can't launch LVTs), but the reduced AAA capability means defenders don't have to deal as much with enemy AAA OVER THEIR OWN BASE (which I know frustrates EVERYONE).

Include a couple different classes as appropriate for each ship type from each country and for each arena. Say, an EWMA American-style CV group would consist of one Yorktown-class carrier, one Brooklyn-class cruiser, and several Clemson-class destroyers (I went with the four-pipers because numbers -- 156 of those were built -- and because the four-pipers would be visually distinctive).

This would have the ADDED bonus of providing more options for scenarios and special events. Imagine a Midway scenario where the Japanese fleet is made up of Hiryu, Soryu, Akagi and [/i]Kaga[/i]-class ships vs. three American Yorktowns (have fun with those starboard-side islands on Hiryu and Akagi, kids). ESPECIALLY if the new decal system HTC added to show the chess pieces could be extended to displaying a deck number based on arena settings, instead (so Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet could all be properly numbered).

Ground War:

Rather than introducing an FPS game for infantry, have each "Army" act sort of like a CV. Armies deploy from a new base type (Camp), which can also launch GVs. Going to the army takes you to the Command Post. From the CP, the player can either spawn in a GV from the "motorpool," or issue orders to the army itself (move to a position, entrench, or attack a position). Say, an army that's moving or attacking will be shown in groups of fire teams, say with riflemen, mortars, bazookas, etc. An entrenched army would have machine gun nests, entrenched riflemen, mortarmen, etc. I'd also give tankers the ability to "dig in." It takes so many seconds to go into effect, and once dug-in the tank can't move (except, obviously, its turret). A dug-in tank decreases its icon distance, making it harder to spot, maybe even earthen berms around it to protect it from enemy fire. In order to move again, the tank has to first take so many seconds again to take down its camo netting, sandbags, etc.

Armies can capture Fields, Bases and Camps, which would also be defended by AI ground troops (these defending troops would not be player-controlled). The number or availability of AI ground troops would be determined by the condition of troops at the base. IE, knocking out the barracks at a base means the base doesn't have troops available to defend itself (or deploy additional troops if there are already defenders spawned). Progress of the ground war would then be affected by these factors:

1) Directly attacking and/or defending infantry positions via air or ground.
2) Interdiction of supply convoys or destruction of supply depots.
3) Attacking/defending strategic positions (bridges, etc.)

The army would have a given number of troops. If enough troops are destroyed, the army is destroyed. The army is reinforced by supply convoys (which would launch from supply depots) or player-delivered supplies via air-drops, M3s, etc. The players would also be responsible for providing armor support to the ground troops.

Now, I would NOT eliminate the ability to capture bases via C-47s and other troop carriers. HOWEVER, bases behind enemy lines would suffer penalties, such as:

1) Unable to repair itself/doesn't receive AI supply convoys.
2) Random enemy AI troop spawns at the perimeter (you're behind enemy lines, do you REALLY think the enemy isn't going to try to take it back)?

That means that if players capture a base behind the lines, the PLAYERS have to take responsibility for defending it.
Title: Re: Hey, Sax!
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 05:28:36 PM
An addendum on the army:

One option would be to treat the army like an RTS, so the player commanding the army can move and place individual units (say, at the company level, so maybe the "Army" is actually more like a "Regiment" instead. For gameplay purposes, mortar and machine gun sections, and artillery batteries would be treated like a separate company).

Maybe give the "commander" a map screen with the position of all friendly units that he works from. Enemy ground units can be "marked" on the map either by contact between the enemy and part of the "Army," or if overflown and by aircraft like the Storch (maybe add the L-3 Grasshopper as an Allied version).

Oh, and require that anyone managing an army must first take command of the army to be able to do so.
Title: Re: Hey, Sax!
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 05:36:45 PM
An addendum on the army:

One option would be to treat the army like an RTS, so the player commanding the army can move and place individual units (say, at the company level, so maybe the "Army" is actually more like a "Regiment" instead. For gameplay purposes, mortar and machine gun sections, and artillery batteries would be treated like a separate company).

Maybe give the "commander" a map screen with the position of all friendly units that he works from. Enemy ground units can be "marked" on the map either by contact between the enemy and part of the "Army," or if overflown and by aircraft like the Storch (maybe add the L-3 Grasshopper as an Allied version).

Oh, and require that anyone managing an army must first take command of the army to be able to do so.

As nice as both posts above sound (and I can honestly dig most of what you've covered) what rating would you give on a scale of 1-10 in developmental difficulty if all of it was adopted as a goal/ How long do you think it may take? Is there something that can be envisioned that could perhaps be introduced in piecemeal form? Something where each new element improves the game without having to take an extreme amount of development and coding (like the new graphics engine) and the players are left waiting in anticipation for such a long time that they become discouraged?
Title: Re: Hey, Sax!
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 05:50:02 PM
Frankly, I'd rather see as much as possible implemented whole rather than in pieces. It would be much easier to make sure it all plays nice together that way.

PS: Can you edit your subject in the OP? It's complaining every time I try to post because it's too long.
Title: Re: Hey, Sax!
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 06:38:09 PM
Frankly, I'd rather see as much as possible implemented whole rather than in pieces. It would be much easier to make sure it all plays nice together that way.

When it comes to introducing game-play elements and objects it may actually be best to do such piecemeal. The player base receives a sense of continual development. This is already a tried and proven method with positive response. Working on a large, demanding and intricate large-scale change to the game is not a guaranteed method to avoid coding gremlins and player migration (I wouldn't be surprised if it actually increases the chances). But we're merely discussing a difference when it comes to how major changes should be practically introduced.

Carrier task forces exist. Tactical deployment changes involves developing code that can consistently apply limitations or new abilities to all maps that accommodate AH ships.

Invasion fleets would then have to have the coding currently in place. This may (likely will) require coding to help the maps differentiate the two types of task forces.

You have battle-wagon TFs that will also have limitations when it comes to shore boundaries. But they may also require an better/more advanced ship to ship and long range ship to shore targeting code.

The behavior of drunks is currently a simple code involving them running into a map-room if they are dropped close enough. An AI battlefield where drunks behave differently depending on a number of circumstances and options selected by the players may involve complex targeting and reaction coding. Tying the AI troop availability and replenishment to barracks objects and 'troop factory' objects adds more.

My methodology involves:

1a. Code/model an object/element (let's say an IJN CV).
2a. Code a second CV TF that features the new CV in place of the Essex class.
3a. At this point, several maps may require adjusting (but this is going to happen soon to all the maps with the terrain adjustment).

One element added. Players (especially the event players) have immediate (or at least more timely) immersion improvement gratification. One down for the big pic with players receiving the benefit of the change. 30 days? 60 days? 6 months? I honestly don't know but I suspect it would be less than attempting to introduce even one more element alongside.

Next piece ....

1b. Code/model 2 BBs (one Iowa/one Yamato).
2b. Code 2 battle-wagon TFs - hold off on implementing map limitations.
3b. Map adjustments.

And so forth. Each element seeing the light of day bit by bit. Current player base enjoying the additions. A lure for surface fleet game fans. Other ships added to increase the variety of fleet combat over time. Perhaps a break to introduce more elements for ground battle as we go. Perhaps (*gasp*) some planes (Junkers JU-52 - again for immersion) added alongside these element or in between.

At this point, players once again appreciate continual development (and the 'easy-to-bore' ones might have less tendency for such).

Other than that, I think our 'in the end' vision of what can be added to the game to make it more immersive is quite a lot alike.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 07:54:04 PM
I don't see why you'd need to create separate TG types for an American carrier and a Japanese carrier. If an American TG and a Japanese TG are going to have the exact same capabilities (ship types, closest approach to shore, etc.), with the only differences being the capabilities of the individual ships THEMSELVES (IE number and types of guns, the amount of damage they can take, etc.) just set it up so when the map designer creates a TG he selects what class of CV, CA, DD, etc. to use.

So like I said: You only need to have 3-4 TG types: CV, CVL (and CV vs. CVL could both fall under CV, anyway), BB, LST. Then just set it up so the map designer determines the specifics of what classes that get used.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 08:32:08 PM
I don't see why you'd need to create separate TG types for an American carrier and a Japanese carrier. If an American TG and a Japanese TG are going to have the exact same capabilities (ship types, closest approach to shore, etc.), with the only differences being the capabilities of the individual ships THEMSELVES (IE number and types of guns, the amount of damage they can take, etc.) just set it up so when the map designer creates a TG he selects what class of CV, CA, DD, etc. to use.

Not types. Actual object layout. The current CV TF has the Essex object. If an IJ CV object is modeled then a second type of CV TF exists. Not in form and function (layout) but in object composition.
With new objects come new fleet compositions to select for maps. If I'm wrong in this then a map designer can correct me.

Never-the-less, the game receives benefit for each ship added. With the IJ CV, Pacific events get an immersive platform for the players at time of launch and recovery. Good to add the moment it is modeled.

With the battleships, I envision 2 models added as opposing units (even though the Iowa class and Yamato never met face to face - should just one strategic or tactical decision been made differently they could have and I feel that also a balancing opportunity,as well). A German and British BB being modeled later opens up both an Atlantic match up and even a Pacific match up with the British involved.

Cruisers (one per nation) may be optional based on the amount of player fleet activity seen wih the CVs and BBs added. (I anticipate it will be noticeable.)

I agree, as I've stated in the past, that an AI ground war would be a good option (rather than a FPS). But even if there is a FPS element added (lots of coding there) I envision opposing drunks, much the way you do. I would add C-47 formations (that, i would think, should be an easy code). What many bring up is the troop map-room capture numbers that HTC has stated would be kept to the maximum number of paratroopers one player could drop (I've never seen the post but enough players have referenced I accept it as the case). If that's the case and AI troop function remains the same then map-rooms would surely be adjusted to a 30 drunk capture. At least in phase one. If a second phase is implemented where troops can capture individual buildings in a town until a certain percentage is achieved, then that would challenge the status quo (i think) - for wouldn't a likely percentage be at least 51% (and I don't see the size of towns decreasing). Captures would indeed requite more troops.

Now, if there are no defenders, I suppose troops could actually go from house to house but shouldn't at least one troop be left behind in each house/building to retain capture status? I don't remember the actual number of buildings in a town but if we say that 80 is the norm then it would take 41 troops to take a town (unopposed with no guns for defense left up). If friendly troops are dropped/bused in then a battle ensues. This could mean that one stick of 10 troops dropped manages to kill just one invader but otherwise is wiped out and the town is no longer white flagged. I find this fair enough. The advantage goes to the defender. BUT ..... a plane swoops down and takes out just one building and the town goes white flag again*.

The rules are easy enough to develop. The code that makes it work?  I dunno. In this instance, however, we are simply changing the dynamics of invasion/capture - adding more of a boots on the ground feel.

1. Air transport formations.
2. Captureable objects (town buildings) with more troops needed (players used to easy captures may not like this so much).

However - those 2 steps alone bring a big dynamic change.

Baby steps - giant leaps (all in how one perceives it).

*Unless they had the bad luck of blowing up a town building that was already captured (building blows up - the invading soldier in it dies). Kind of a c-shoot there.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 09:03:45 PM
Not types. Actual object layout. The current CV TF has the Essex object. If an IJ CV object is modeled then a second type of CV TF exists. Not in form and function (layout) but in object composition.
With new objects come new fleet compositions to select for maps. If I'm wrong in this then a map designer can correct me.

As I think about this, I keep going back to the strategy mode mission building in 1942: You specified you wanted a task group and added it on the map. Then you went into the TG settings and selected the specific ships.

I see the same thing here: Mapmaker specifies he wants a CV fleet on the map. He then goes into the fleet object and specifies the actual composition.

There's no reason there should be a need for separate "Essex" Task Groups and "Hiryu/Soryu/Shokaku/Whatever" Task Groups.

And I definitely think it's important to add more than just one ship per type per country. We shouldn't have Essexes and Baltimores in the EWMA, while the Fletchers are REALLY borderline and depends on where the cutoff between EW and MW is (so like I suggested, use Yorktowns, Brooklyns and Clemsons).

Likewise, there should NOT be Iowas in the EW or MW arenas. I'd even argue against Yamato and would advise keeping her for LWMA as she didn't see much in the way of forward-deployment until that period.

I do like the idea of changing capture mechanics to focus on actually holding territory and eliminating the maproom. Which for that matter, if AI (if player-directed) infantry battles were to decide territorial changes, I'd argue that you could do away with destroying town buildings entirely.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 09:21:22 PM
There's no reason there should be a need for separate "Essex" Task Groups and "Hiryu/Soryu/Shokaku/Whatever" Task Groups.

How is the game going to know which nationality of ships to portray without the different map objects being connected to the map?

Likewise, there should NOT be Iowas in the EW or MW arenas. I'd even argue against Yamato and would advise keeping her for LWMA as she didn't see much in the way of forward-deployment until that period.

Without more participation in the EW and MW arenas, I don't see a current point in changing the TF composition, what-so-ever, in those arenas. However, for events, I could see modeling older BBs first (Pennsylvania class for U.S., Nagato for the Japanese). Perhaps model them instead of the Iowa and Yamato, using the older models throughout the war (as some were). The Iowa and Yamato could be held for later release if the player base makes a demand for them.

I'd argue that you could do away with destroying town buildings entirely.

Valid point, for capture purposes. But the bomber boys (self included, time to time) like blowing up churches, hospitals, the mayor's house and brothels.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 09:37:48 PM
How is the game going to know which nationality of ships to portray without the different map objects being connected to the map?

Like I said, all the map object should define is that particular task group is a CV fleet, bombardment group, or invasion fleet. The rest is options specified by the map-maker. Maybe something like this:

Task Group Name:       Automatically populated to use next available field number. IE C6 = Carrier 6, B8 = Battleship 8, etc.
Task Group Type:       <Drop Down Options: Carrier, Battleship, Invasion>
Default Country:        <Drop Down Options: Bishop, Rook, Knight>
Port:                        <Drop Down>
Show Decal:              (Radio Buttons: Yes, No)
Decal Type:               (Radio Buttons: Owner Country, Text)
Decal Text:                [Text Entry Box] This is greyed-out unless the Text button above is selected.
Primary Ship Class:      <Drop Down Options: Yorktown, Hiryu, Essex, Ark Royal...> The available classes are dependent on type of TG. Primary is the ship that triggers respawn of the group if sunk.
Secondary Ship Class:  <Drop Down Options: Baltimore, Brooklyn, Hood...> If you want to tie nationalities, have it determined by the Primary ship. IE, selecting an American carrier means only American ships are available in this list.
Number of Escorts:      <Drop Down>
Escort Ship Class:        <Drop Down Options: Fletcher, Clemson...> As above you can have the primary ship act as filter.

So the object itself isn't a US task group or Japanese task group or British task group. It's JUST a task group.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 09:47:03 PM
Like I said, all the map object should define is that particular task group is a CV fleet, bombardment group, or invasion fleet. The rest is options specified by the map-maker. Maybe something like this:

Task Group Name:       Automatically populated to use next available field number. IE C6 = Carrier 6, B8 = Battleship 8, etc.
Task Group Type:       <Drop Down Options: Carrier, Battleship, Invasion>
Default Country:        <Drop Down Options: Bishop, Rook, Knight>
Port:                        <Drop Down>
Show Decal:              (Radio Buttons: Yes, No)
Decal Type:               (Radio Buttons: Owner Country, Text)
Decal Text:                [Text Entry Box] This is greyed-out unless the Text button above is selected.
Primary Ship Class:      <Drop Down Options: Yorktown, Hiryu, Essex, Ark Royal...> The available classes are dependent on type of TG. Primary is the ship that triggers respawn of the group if sunk.
Secondary Ship Class:  <Drop Down Options: Baltimore, Brooklyn, Hood...> If you want to tie nationalities, have it determined by the Primary ship. IE, selecting an American carrier means only American ships are available in this list.
Number of Escorts:      <Drop Down>
Escort Ship Class:        <Drop Down Options: Fletcher, Clemson...> As above you can have the primary ship act as filter.

So the object itself isn't a US task group or Japanese task group or British task group. It's JUST a task group.

I have a feeling we're talking about the same thing but misunderstanding each other horribly.  ;)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 10:24:08 PM
I have a feeling we're talking about the same thing but misunderstanding each other horribly.  ;)

From what you're describing, you want to make two completely separate map object types for an American CV group vs. Japanese CV group.

What I'm saying is, the map object type would just be, "CV Group."
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 11:05:08 PM
From what you're describing, you want to make two completely separate map object types for an American CV group vs. Japanese CV group.

What I'm saying is, the map object type would just be, "CV Group."

Does the drop-down selection list you describe exist or is it how you envision it would be if additional coding is applied?
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 20, 2014, 11:15:46 PM
Does the drop-down selection list you describe exist or is it how you envision it would be if additional coding is applied?

It's how I envision it.

And obviously, this would just be for establishing the default settings on a given map. Give the CMs the ability to change the group settings on the fly for special events.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 11:35:54 PM
It's how I envision it.

And obviously, this would just be for establishing the default settings on a given map. Give the CMs the ability to change the group settings on the fly for special events.

Nice .... but .... would that actually be easier time/code-wise than just adding an IJ CV model then adding a second type of CV group much like small, medium and large air fields are different but selectable already? I'm still advocating having a quicker immediate impact with less coding to have to be implemented alongside the modeling. Even with my suggestion of coding % based town captures, I believe such would and could be based on existing code (or at least the foundation and framework) and would not require all that many lines from scratch. You seem to be suggesting code be added for functions based on your experiences with other games (if I'm understanding correctly). Such would not be impossible but it does seem to neglect the additional workload that may make the project take longer and be less attractive to the programmer (based on other projects that may be easier to implement) and player base (based on the additional time it would take to see the addition come to pass). - [Picture the current workload the graphics update is taking and the amount of impatience the player base seems to have in it finally becoming a true-blue update.]

Now, let me assure you that I'm not advocating recklessness and haste when it comes to suggesting changes to add more depth to the game ... but I am suggesting potential streamlining and practicality to make my 'step by step' version of our shared vision of additions be more of a steady flow of potential growth and improvement that the players see come to pass every 3 or 4 times they pay on their sub.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 12:40:11 AM
Here's another variant of a step-by-step building of a more robust ship set (and eventual environmental change) for AH:

1. Shōkaku-class aircraft carrier - Commissioned 8 August 1941. Shōkaku and Zuikaku formed the Japanese 5th Carrier Division, embarking their aircraft shortly before the Pearl Harbor attack.

(http://www.angelfire.com/blog/baileyfamily/SHOKAKUo4.GIF)

2. Pennsylvania and Nagato class battleships -
Pennsylvania    Target ship, Operation Crossroads; scuttled 10 February 1948
Arizona            Sunk during the attack on Pearl Harbor, 7 December 1941

Nagato)            Sunk during Operation Crossroads, 29/30 July 1946
Mutsu           Sunk by internal explosion, 8 June 1943

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/290/f/5/uss_pennsylvania_1942_by_lioness_nala-d5i3aoj.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Nagato1944.png)

(If it's not much of a coding monster, a more realistic fire control system would be nice to introduce with this update.)

3. Higgins boat and Daihatsu-class landing craft

4. Battleships Bismark and King George V-class

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Bb_bismarck.png/1280px-Bb_bismarck.png)

(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/ships/ships-uk/hms-king-george-v-1941-battleship-2.png)

5. Illustrious-class aircraft carrier

(http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~nigevids/Commonwealth/Common-Images/CVIllustriousClassIllustrious1940.png)

~~~~~~~~

If all of this was presentable in 90 day increments it would take over a year - but players would be able to enjoy each update
and look forward to the next related one.

Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 21, 2014, 08:29:35 AM
Nice .... but .... would that actually be easier time/code-wise than just adding an IJ CV model then adding a second type of CV group much like small, medium and large air fields are different but selectable already? I'm still advocating having a quicker immediate impact with less coding to have to be implemented alongside the modeling. Even with my suggestion of coding % based town captures, I believe such would and could be based on existing code (or at least the foundation and framework) and would not require all that many lines from scratch. You seem to be suggesting code be added for functions based on your experiences with other games (if I'm understanding correctly). Such would not be impossible but it does seem to neglect the additional workload that may make the project take longer and be less attractive to the programmer (based on other projects that may be easier to implement) and player base (based on the additional time it would take to see the addition come to pass). - [Picture the current workload the graphics update is taking and the amount of impatience the player base seems to have in it finally becoming a true-blue update.]

Now, let me assure you that I'm not advocating recklessness and haste when it comes to suggesting changes to add more depth to the game ... but I am suggesting potential streamlining and practicality to make my 'step by step' version of our shared vision of additions be more of a steady flow of potential growth and improvement that the players see come to pass every 3 or 4 times they pay on their sub.

It's a matter of simplicity in the long run. Making an IJN task group a completely separate map object type from the US group is just going to be redundant clutter. What's the point of doing it this way if the behavior of the two are the same and the only difference is in the models used? So no, I don't see it as being the same as Small/Medium/Large fields at all.

And the more classes of carrier you add, that means adding ANOTHER task group object. So what if you want to add Yorktown or Illustrious? Now that means you have FOUR task group objects, all behaving the same way, and the only difference being what ship models are used.

That's going to be wasteful in the long run when you can just make the model types selectable options for one map object.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
It's a matter of simplicity in the long run. Making an IJN task group a completely separate map object type from the US group is just going to be redundant clutter. What's the point of doing it this way if the behavior of the two are the same and the only difference is in the models used? So no, I don't see it as being the same as Small/Medium/Large fields at all.

I'm of the mind that they are. They seem to be designed as air fields that players can set a course for on the water. It does appear that there are different types of TFs based on the objects involved, already. There are cruiser TFs, there are CV TFs, there are light versions of both (all differing in the types of objects and number of objects in them - there are even freighter/transport 'TFs' seen in events). To the best of my knowledge, this is done without the system you envision. Small, medium and large airfields fulfill the same function on different scales with everyone of them having a degree of redundancy. Maps are designed by selecting airfields and TFs that have redundancy. Having a TF that has an IJ CV instead of an Essex class would seem to follow the same format, to me. There's bound to be a reason that method is used. Hence most of my suggestions being presented within the parameters of what I suspect already exists in form and function of AH design (if possible) without completely re-inventing the wheel. As always, I wholly encourage input from current or past terrain designers.

And the more classes of carrier you add, that means adding ANOTHER task group object. So what if you want to add Yorktown or Illustrious? Now that means you have FOUR task group objects, all behaving the same way, and the only difference being what ship models are used.

Yes - it would involve adding task group objects (just like we have now). In my illustration we add a Shokaku class and an Illustrious class (one right off the bat, the other much later). That gives us a U.S., Japanese and British CV (sufficient for all nations who had significant carrier ops to have a carrier visually and physically represented in the game) - each one a unique carrier TF to add to the map. That's fine, for me. If the masses ask for different classes of the same type ship for more variety within one national ship sub-set and HTC thinks it's worth the time and effort, fine.  :)

That's going to be wasteful in the long run when you can just make the model types selectable options for one map object.

Then again, your suggestion includes more code whereas mine stays within the perceived existing design. I've always been amazed at the efficiency and small download size of the game (although I suspect the DL size may change significantly with the terrain update). I give Dale and co. credit in the coding department and figure they may not use your recommended drop-down object selection for a reason. Granted, that reason may be that they haven't gotten around to it yet (but it may be that they find it just as easy to dispense with that type of system since volunteer map builders seem capable without it).

~~~~

Aren't we nitpicking technical methodology when it may be better to bounce back and forth what would be better, adding everything imaginable in our shared future vision of the game into the programmer soup pot at once and hope it appears in our lifetime or to have a long-term plan and interesting toys that would be fun for the existing masses and draw new types of players, which they see appearing in the game every few months or so?

What do you think of the order of additions I've suggested in my step-by-step 'long term' (I think would actually be quicker than overwhelming the designers with a whole lot at once) AH ship set?
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 12:22:57 PM
What may be a better option for the Japanese battleship may be the Ise class (pre-hybrid). This gives a 12 gun to 12 gun face-off with a Pennsylvania class.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/ONI-Ise-classDrawing.jpg)

The twelve 45-calibre 14-inch guns of the Ise class were mounted in three pairs of twin-gun, superfiring turrets. Numbered one through six from front to rear, each turret weighed 655 long tons (666 t). The hydraulically powered turrets had an elevation capability of −5/+20 degrees. The guns had a rate of fire of 1.5–2 rounds per minute and could be loaded at any angle between -3 and +20 degrees. In 1921 the elevation was increased to +30 degrees and then to +43 degrees during their mid-1930s modernization, except for No. 6 turret as its supporting structure could not be lowered. The recoil mechanism of the guns was also changed from a hydraulic to a pneumatic system, which allowed for a faster firing cycle of the main guns.

By World War II, the guns used Type 91 armour-piercing, capped shells. Each of these shells weighed 673.5 kilograms (1,485 lb) and was fired at a muzzle velocity of 770–775 metres per second (2,530–2,540 ft/s). They had a maximum range of 25,000 metres (27,000 yd) at +20 degrees of elevation and 35,450 meters (38,770 yd) at +43 degrees after modernization. Also available was a 625-kilogram (1,378 lb) high-explosive shell that had a muzzle velocity of 805 metres per second (2,640 ft/s). A special Type 3 Sankaidan incendiary shrapnel shell was developed in the 1930s for anti-aircraft use.

The ships' secondary armament consisted of twenty 50-calibre 14-centimetre guns. Eighteen of these were mounted in casemates in the forecastle and superstructure and the remaining pair were mounted on the deck above them and protected by gun shields. They had a maximum elevation of +20 degrees which gave them ranges of 16,300 metres (17,800 yd). Each gun had a rate of fire of up to 10 rounds per minute. Anti-aircraft defence was provided by four 40-calibre 3rd Year Type 8-centimetre AA guns in single mounts. The 7.62-centimetre (3.00 in) high-angle guns had a maximum elevation of +75 degrees, and had a rate of fire of 13 to 20 rounds per minute. They fired a 6 kg (13 lb) projectile with a muzzle velocity of 680 m/s (2,200 ft/s) to a maximum height of 7,500 metres (24,600 ft). The ships were also fitted with six submerged 53.3-centimetre (21.0 in) torpedo tubes, three on each broadside. They carried twelve to eighteen 6th Year Type torpedos which had a 200-kilogram (440 lb) warhead. They had three settings for range and speed: 15,000 metres (16,000 yd) at 26 knots (48 km/h; 30 mph), 10,000 metres (11,000 yd) at 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph), or 7,000 metres (7,700 yd) at 37 knots (69 km/h; 43 mph).

A twin-gun 127 mm mount on board the battleship Nagato. The mounts used on board the Ise class were the same model.

In 1931–33 the AA guns were replaced with eight 40-caliber 127 mm (5.0 in) dual-purpose guns, fitted on both sides of the forward superstructures in four twin-gun mounts. When firing at surface targets, the guns had a range of 14,700 metres (16,100 yd); they had a ceiling of 9,440 metres (30,970 ft) at their maximum elevation of +90 degrees. Their maximum rate of fire was 14 rounds a minute, but their sustained rate of fire was around eight rounds per minute. Two twin-gun mounts for license-built Vickers two-pounder light AA guns were also added. These guns had a maximum elevation of +80 degrees and a rate of fire of 200 rounds per minute. The pair of 14 cm guns on the upper deck were removed at this time.

During the mid-1930s reconstruction the torpedo tubes were removed and the Vickers two-pounders were replaced by twenty license-built Hotchkiss 25 mm Type 96 light AA guns in 10 twin-gun mounts. This was the standard Japanese light AA gun during World War II, but it suffered from severe design shortcomings that rendered it a largely ineffective weapon. According to historian Mark Stille, the twin and triple mounts "lacked sufficient speed in train or elevation; the gun sights were unable to handle fast targets; the gun exhibited excessive vibration; the magazine was too small, and, finally, the gun produced excessive muzzle blast". These 25-millimetre (0.98 in) guns had an effective range of 1,500–3,000 metres (1,600–3,300 yd), and an effective ceiling of 5,500 metres (18,000 ft) at an elevation of 85 degrees. The maximum effective rate of fire was only between 110 and 120 rounds per minute because of the frequent need to change the fifteen-round magazines. In addition the forward pair of 14 cm guns in the forecastle were removed at this time and the maximum elevation of the remaining guns was increased to +30 degrees.

(I wonder if coding the torpedo capability for the BBs abd DDs would be a monster or not)?
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 21, 2014, 12:24:31 PM
AFAIK there ARE no Cruiser task groups. TGs are tied to the carriers, so whenever there's a CA group in any event I've flown in the CM has had to manually sink the CV and tweak the respawn timers to make it work.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 12:28:30 PM
AFAIK there ARE no Cruiser task groups. TGs are tied to the carriers, so whenever there's a CA group in any event I've flown in the CM has had to manually sink the CV and tweak the respawn timers to make it work.

Seems that BBs will have to be designed as true blue flagship objects, replacing a CV.  :)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 12:57:16 PM
AFAIK there ARE no Cruiser task groups. TGs are tied to the carriers, so whenever there's a CA group in any event I've flown in the CM has had to manually sink the CV and tweak the respawn timers to make it work.

Hasn't AvA featured Cruiser TFs from time to time?
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: cobia38 on September 21, 2014, 01:18:29 PM

 For those that are wishing for Japanese ships,just remember,they did NOT have proxi fuses on their AAA.
 
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 01:37:09 PM
For those that are wishing for Japanese ships,just remember,they did NOT have proxi fuses on their AAA.
 

Are you absolutely 100% sure?

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_39-65_t98.htm

Akizuki class - Fuze-setting machines were attached to the breech faces of the guns.

Oyodo class - The fuze setting on this class was done by a separate machine before the shells were loaded into the gun.

(Fuze setting? Hmmmmm.)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Chalenge on September 21, 2014, 05:08:39 PM
Time of flight or altitude fusing is different from proximity.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 05:30:34 PM
Time of flight or altitude fusing is different from proximity.

Actually it's one of the variants of proximity. Any fuse that's set to explode without a direct hit on anything physically in hopes of releasing shrapnel into a nearby target is considered proximity. It merely isn't relying on an integral sensor.

(Having said that, yes, the radio proximity fuse was indeed an Allied advantage.)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Chalenge on September 21, 2014, 05:53:23 PM
Okay, you can be right about that.

I was looking over the army idea and it seems like a real frame killer. Even a unit as small as a regiment would be 1,000 men, which means 1,000 times whatever the maximum polygon requirement for soldiers (which of course could be less with distance in the LOD reductions). But, as I understand things, if the original soldier is built at 2,500 polys, then each LOD reduction is about half (1,250 , 625 , 310, 155). That leaves about 155,000 at a minimum for a single regiment, upwards to 2,500,000 when a single regiment is engaged by a single tank. Throw in two, or three regiments total for all three countries and instantly you have a problem. And that's just at the regiment level and without the more complex elements of grenadiers, heavy machine guns, artillery, and so on. For a single-player game that's fine, but not something like AH.

Is this really what you are planning on asking for?
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on September 21, 2014, 07:05:15 PM
Okay, you can be right about that.

I was looking over the army idea and it seems like a real frame killer. Even a unit as small as a regiment would be 1,000 men, which means 1,000 times whatever the maximum polygon requirement for soldiers (which of course could be less with distance in the LOD reductions). But, as I understand things, if the original soldier is built at 2,500 polys, then each LOD reduction is about half (1,250 , 625 , 310, 155). That leaves about 155,000 at a minimum for a single regiment, upwards to 2,500,000 when a single regiment is engaged by a single tank. Throw in two, or three regiments total for all three countries and instantly you have a problem. And that's just at the regiment level and without the more complex elements of grenadiers, heavy machine guns, artillery, and so on. For a single-player game that's fine, but not something like AH.

Is this really what you are planning on asking for?

I'm of a slightly different take than Sax. I would merely expand forces by enabling formations for goons, M-3s and the SdKfz 251. Granted, if a half dozen guys on each side drop troops on the same town, one side to capture and the other to prevent such, that would be 360 little men running around. I'm not sure how much of a hit that would end up being (old or new terrain). Once a drunk dies or takes a building it essentially would go away. I still like the idea of capturing towns via percentage of buildings and not 10 in a map room. I also like the idea of defensive drunks and both sides having troops shooting at one another. But then, this is what wishlist discussions are supposed to debate. Is the modeling .... is the coding .... worth it?

And changes don't have to be large scale to have a significant impact. 60 men on each side fighting for a town would still be a battle. With or without formations facilitating.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Chalenge on September 21, 2014, 07:47:07 PM
Just like anything the modeling changes with the target complexity. So if a typical troop has to be capable of transitioning from one duty to another there is a lot more complexity and therefore the development time increases. A typical soldier (US, British, German, etc.) takes about two weeks to build with the skeleton properly constructed. I say properly, because while there are shortcuts if you want to make a model clear to any future motion data then it must be built by certain guidelines. After the initial structure is completed and mapped the model is (generally speaking) modeled with even greater geometry and the skin is baked for mapping to the original low-poly version. Then everything gets passed to the animation phase where either motion-capture data is mapped to the skeleton to create animations, or pose-to-pose positions are created for animation generation (and there are other methods). In order to make sure that there are no 'hitches' in animation there is usually an initial stance for pose-tweening or motion-tweening, and then the animation is tested through coding. As hitches are discovered the process backs up for correction.

If you want more than a single nation to be represented then the data can be shared only if the base skeleton is the same. However, as we know from history the Germans learned one method of battle, the US another, and so on. So, no two nations appear the same in battle and their movements may be used to distinguish the identity of the force. Those traits require additional development time.

Probably, in the case of AH, the soldiers would be limited to a single nation and a single uniform, so that the impact on gaming systems would be minimal.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: EagleDNY on September 25, 2014, 09:08:55 PM
I'm +1 for the idea of having surface combatant groups / shore bombardment groups - but the problem I see is that we do not have a realistic aiming system for guns.  There is no gunsite that determines range for long range bombardment, or for surface group vs surface group battles - and that would really be a requirement for this to work.   We need some kind of gun director in the bridge of a ship that can be manned, so that if someone is sitting in the director he can call out range and bearing in local and then zoom in and report on shot fall.  This would make bombardment and sea combat a team activity as well.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Saxman on September 25, 2014, 11:15:41 PM
There IS also the fact that if the aiming devices are made accurately for each ship class, things can get REALLY lopsided if one side has a South Dakota or Iowa with its radar ranging and target finding, but the other is in a Japanese ship, which didn't.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Tilt on September 26, 2014, 07:30:12 AM
AFAIK there ARE no Cruiser task groups. TGs are tied to the carriers, so whenever there's a CA group in any event I've flown in the CM has had to manually sink the CV and tweak the respawn timers to make it work.

It was possible to alter the ship number ( so that the cruiser become 001) in the terrain editor when deleting the cv. An invisible tower/OC and hanger point object had to be constructed to give the player a view point. ( usually to the side of the cruiser). Only ships guns were available ( set in arena settings) or maybe the odd PT or LVT.

Then a CV free battle fleet could be created. Several Scenario terrains had this. ( early BoB, Niemen )

Indeed some MA terrains had two cruisers  per CV fleet and at least one scenario terrain had fleets with multiple CV's all using the same tools.

HTC discourages the use of " modified" object groups these days.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Mister Fork on September 26, 2014, 08:55:52 AM
Spawn a LVT from a carrier close to shore - land the LVT and it becomes a vehicle spawn point.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Lusche on September 26, 2014, 11:01:00 AM
Indeed some MA terrains had two cruisers  per CV fleet and at least one scenario terrain had fleets with multiple CV's all using the same tools.

HTC discourages the use of " modified" object groups these days.


Not only we have an old terrain with 2 CA groups in game, (Ozkansas) but the most recent addition (Fester) has TG's with 3 CA's.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Zacherof on October 02, 2014, 02:47:28 PM
Ground units/AI and otherwise. Sea units, AI and otherwise. Order of development that doesn't overwhelm the developers but can still offer an immediate draw for potential players and benefit for the existing base (whether ma or event-driven or both).

On a bit by bit basis (whether it's a 'test the waters' thing or a dedicated plan to introduce a broader aspect to the game) I would be glad to see 2 things added:

1. a Japanese carrier

2. C-47s given 'formation' capability and various ground capture targets taking different numbers to capture (why destroy everything to white flag something when you can capture your targets intact? - Maybe, technically, it would be a third wish to see drunks engaging if dropped within a certain vicinity of each other (or a defending force being approached by invaders).

One, two or three things with what I perceive to be a degree of developer difficulty that increases in order of request.
Is your name AI in real life??? :D
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 02, 2014, 02:58:12 PM
Is your name AI in real life??? :D

No, it's 'Otherwise.'
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Tilt on October 03, 2014, 08:00:38 AM
I would love to see AI driven ground battles set to an equilibrium such that player intervention ( air, land or from sea) tips the balance one way or another.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 03, 2014, 08:28:25 AM
I would love to see AI driven ground battles set to an equilibrium such that player intervention ( air, land or from sea) tips the balance one way or another.

I can see the coolness in that. If frame rate keeps up, I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 10:25:23 AM
There IS also the fact that if the aiming devices are made accurately for each ship class, things can get REALLY lopsided if one side has a South Dakota or Iowa with its radar ranging and target finding, but the other is in a Japanese ship, which didn't.

It's not like AH models every detail and certain elements can be eliminated for balance sake. Just model the optical rangefinders, which were fairly universal for all battleships of the day.
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 10:40:02 AM
Battleship comparison - Nagato vs. Colorado

(http://stephenesherman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ijn-battleship-nagato-0007.jpg)

(http://wiredstar.com/images/WoWs/BB-45-USS-Colorado-ONI.jpg)

Guns: 8 - 16 in. 45 cal.
         8 - 5 in. 38 cal.
        10 - 5 in. 51 cal
        
Armor:  16" - 14" belt
            8" belt (aft)
            3" deck (ends)
           16" - 9" funnel bases
           18" - 9" turrets
           16" conning tower and tube
           3.5" upper and 2.5" lower armor decks

Displacement: 32,500 tons

Designed S.H.P. 27,300 = 21 knots
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 11:07:39 AM
Battleship Tirpitz (for comparison with above)

(http://www.coatneyhistory.com/TirpitzONI2.JPG)

Bismark (for comparison all-around)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/bismark_stats_zps66c84365.png~original)(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/bismark_views_zps30552483.png)

H.M.S. King George V (for likewise comparison)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/king_george_v_stats_zps2ee06b9a.png~original)
(http://acepilots.com/ships/hms-king-george-v-0001.jpg)

H.M.S. Hood (for likewise comparison)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/hood_stats_zpse91bb73b.png~original)
(http://www.hmshood.com/images/hood41.gif)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 12:33:43 PM
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/major_caliber_guns_and_turrets_zpsd7bb0674.png~original) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wT1xkRpCKk)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/battleship_x_USS_S_Dakota_zps1b51e233.png) (http://youtu.be/S1mX_K9lFbA)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 05:16:53 PM
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/The_Battleships_zps177ce859.png~original) (http://youtu.be/ofING1ESS20)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 06:45:17 PM
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/battle_of_leyte_zps3d62c490.png~original) (http://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/second-world-war/the-largest-sea-battle-in-history/1937320733001/)
Title: Re: Practical ways to expand AH ground and sea potential.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2014, 07:52:43 PM
Cruisers

And then there's cruisers. We got one in the game. It's a U.S. cruiser - specifically, a Baltimore class (U.S.S. Pittsburgh).

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/AH_CC_Pitt001_zps7be10d31.png~original)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/AH_CC_Pitt001_top_zps314db105.png~original)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/AH_CC_Pitt001_hangar_view_zpscb3cf062.png~original)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/USS_Pitt_Stats_zps4388c1c9.png~original)
Armor: 6"-8" side 3+2" decks

The Japanese 'equivalent?'

How about the Tone class?

(http://stephenesherman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ijn-cruiser-tone-0029.jpg)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/Tone__Stats_zps0e9189c6.png~original)

Or .... the Mogami class?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Mogami-1.jpg)

(And wouldn't it be nice to put the gun directors you see on the Pittsburgh to good use?)  :)

(http://www.history.navy.mil/pics/radar-p31.jpg)