Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on September 26, 2014, 06:52:08 AM
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For you die hard F4u pilots, where do you like to set your convergence and why?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
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2 weeks. Er... I mean 300 yards. For all of your knife fighter needs, 300 yards. Dont forget when you set convergence you also have trajectory to contend with. Where are most engagements in AH?
If you are pounding dirt or hunting bombers then maybe 400 yards. But otherwise you cant go wrong at 300 yards.
This goes for all calibers, all fighters, regardless of where the guns are mounted. Some will argue "this" for nose mounted guns, other will are "that" for wing mounted guns, and others will argue "stagger" because of the kind of beer they drank the night before.
KISS. 300 yards. For all knife fighters.
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200 yards. .50cal are buzzsaws at close range. And I can't hit worth crap at distance.
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300 works for me. Even at long ranges it gives a Good "shoot gun" effect to scare the enemy into maneuvering.
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Here is a Wiki quote that they got from "Hammell, Eric (2010). Aces Against Japan. Pacifica Military History. p. 132."
In the Pacific War in mid-1943, American Marine Fighting Squadron 213 harmonised the six .50 inch wing guns of their Mk I Vought F4U Corsairs to converge to a point 300 ft (90 m) ahead. The squadron's usual tactic was to dive upon an enemy from the front and slightly to one side (a high-side attack using full deflection) and fire when at the convergence distance.[
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100yds? That is REALLY close.
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Against some Japanese fighters with little to no armor or self sealing fuel tanks. Consider the spread on the lead with an AP(I) round. They may have had to change it later for Ki61, N1K2, and Ki84. But, for A6m and Ki43, good tactic with F4u.
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I thought I remember some folks set it out a bit because of the F4u barrel nose kinda thing. Easier to aim maybe. I am no F4u expert thats why I am asking here.
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I thought I remember some folks set it out a bit because of the F4u barrel nose kinda thing. Easier to aim maybe. I am no F4u expert thats why I am asking here.
Basically, put your convergence where you do most of your shooting. I set everything to 300 with the exception of the P38, which I set to 650 to keep the grouping as tight as it can be for the longest. 300 gives you enough versatility to be able to put a decent volume of fire onto someone out to 600 or so, and you can still make people turn past that, and in closer it's going to be 2 streams anyways unless you move your convergence in. I don't like shorter than 300 because it widens the pattern once it gets past the zero point too quickly.
Wiley.
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Here is a Wiki quote that they got from "Hammell, Eric (2010). Aces Against Japan. Pacifica Military History. p. 132."
I'm currently reading "Corsair: The F4U in WWII and Korea" by Barrett Tillman, and he said that the normal convergence for the F4U was 300yards.
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Basically, put your convergence where you do most of your shooting. I set everything to 300 with the exception of the P38, which I set to 650 to keep the grouping as tight as it can be for the longest. 300 gives you enough versatility to be able to put a decent volume of fire onto someone out to 600 or so, and you can still make people turn past that, and in closer it's going to be 2 streams anyways unless you move your convergence in. I don't like shorter than 300 because it widens the pattern once it gets past the zero point too quickly.
Wiley.
This^^^
Also, you have to take into account the wings angle too. I know I like to have my 50 on the pony set at 275. I hit in the 5% range with it like that. When I jump in the hog I am no where near that percentage set at the same range. I think Im going to have to try staggering them a bit and see if I can find the sweet spot for the hog and my style.
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Was gonna make a case for 'cross convergence' (being that I've been a supporter/practitioner of such for years)
but as I made more pics the more ambivalent I became. (Please forgive my misspelling of 'convergence.')
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/F4U1A_500_500_zps81de2656.png~original)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/F4U1A_500_525_500_475_zps5b7deed1.png~original)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/F4U1A_500_375_zps809b8601.png~original)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/F4U1A_250_500_zps8ee8ea6a.png~original)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/F4U1A_250_525_500_475_zpscac863b7.png~original)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/F4U1A_250_375_zps8009bb62.png~original)
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Arlo thanks for posting. Those are amazingly detailed and useful images. Facts always seem to speak loudest to me. :salute
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Your rounds out to 500yds never really get out of a 20ft diameter circle. While at 500yds the target makes the target picture dispersion look deceptively dense, the smallest deflection allowance, and where the con will be in 1 second becomes your enemy. Your max effective range is 1200ft in 1\3sec with a drop of 4ft for the AN\M2. By 1sec your drop is 16ft. Then add G forces to that and your drop at 1000ft can be up to 20ft. From WW2, this is the reason you keep finding in your research today, 300yds as a common convergence for the AN\M2. But, then this is a game and every one of us is an expert at cartoon fighting and the digital requirements of the hit counter.
500yd, 300yd and 200yd with the F4u-1A convergence at 275, 300, 325. I chose these three numbers as closest to WW2 across many US rides. Note everything stays inside of that 20ft circle for the most part. You won't see much of a difference in other US wing mounted AN\M2. For the most part it comes down to your ability to judge aiming. I can hit runners in my spit8 out to 800 with the cannons set to 300 because I know to aim 6Mil left or right of the con to focus one gun on him. And this where most of you put your fingers in your ears and your eyes cross when I start talking about actually using WW2 gunsight reticles the way pilots were taught to bet their lives on them.
In the 500yd picture below, if you aim at a 500yd-600yd runner using the center of the open space between the dot and the horizontal line. Your rounds from one wing will all be on him. You will need a bit of elevation to account for time to target.
500yds
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/F4u500.jpg)
300yds
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/F4u300.jpg)
200yds
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/KDavis6030/F4u200.jpg)
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i think it is more a self preference thing 650 is what i use in all birds except spit 1 hurri 1 and a few others and i use 400 on those
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What most of you are not understanding, or choosing to ignore.
In WW2 the AN\M2 was set to 600yds. Then the convergence was set. Then the gunsight line of sight was set through the convergence point. In the end this resulted with the convergence being the harmonization point of your effective range while the gunsight line of sight passed through convergence point first, then the 600-650 point roughly in the top 1\3 of the dispersion pattern second.
Even if you set your convergence to 600-650, your dispersion and time to target is against you other than for straffing. While with bombers you may open up from that far out but, you are rapidly closing, so your rounds are hitting closer to your effective range with more kinetic energy.
With a few exceptions in our game. None of you are including closing speed\time when you speak about your convergence. The majority of your hits against other aircraft are inside of 400 even if you open up from 650. Very few of you spend all of your time in high speed 6 chases with you and your con at fixed ranges with him in your gunsight for a long time.
This is the same fluff argued early in WW2 with the vast majority of US pilots setting their AN\M2 to 300 knowing if they open up past 400, their speed of closing will make the actual impact closer to their max effective range.
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bustr im not saying its right or wrong im saying its my self preference to use 650 i can hit nothing with 400 or less some people chose to not shoot unless then are closer then 400 some dont its more of a self preference thing you can argue convergence all day but in the end what works for one person dont work for another, all i know is my aim is better with 650 than it is at any other setting maybe its because i have the picture of lead down at that convergence and not at 400 no clue what it is but thats just fact 650 is better for me
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Over the years it became obvious if a player allowed you to close to 800, he would allow 650. Many of the long range masters of our game turn off tracers and take advantage of that 1 second lull in many players SA. Once you are at 400, yes it's harder to hit someone because they are very busy not allowing you to.
Then you really need to understand the 100mph principle and how a 100Mil ring works as a deflection estimation tool. Most players cannot judge deflection on demand just like most fighter pilots in WW2 could not. Knowing the numbers of no tracer, shoot at 650, hit and run masters left in our game today. I stopped allowing anyone closer than 1000 who is obviously one of that cadre.
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Over the years it became obvious if a player allowed you to close to 800, he would allow 650. Many of the long range masters of our game turn off tracers and take advantage of that 1 second lull in many players SA. Once you are at 400, yes it's harder to hit someone because they are very busy not allowing you to.
Then you really need to understand the 100mph principle and how a 100Mil ring works as a deflection estimation tool. Most players cannot judge deflection on demand just like most fighter pilots in WW2 could not. Knowing the numbers of no tracer, shoot at 650, hit and run masters left in our game today. I stopped allowing anyone closer than 1000 who is obviously one of that cadre.
Can you bump or repost that info on using the ladder on the Mk.VIII reticle for judging lead?
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Can you bump or repost that info on using the ladder on the Mk.VIII reticle for judging lead?
Seconded. I've been searching for it all morning.
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100mph Principle.
For every 100mph your con travels at, lead by 50Mil(1 radius of your 100Mil main ring) while that con is traveling 90 degrees of your line of travel at 1000ft(333yds). This holds true from 45-90 degrees. In low E turns or a con traveling at 5-30 degrees of your line of travel, lead accordingly with the first 50Mil radius of your 100Mil main ring.
Here is a link to my Historic Package. It has a ww2 manuals folder with all of this, including a NAVY glide bombing manual to use the 125Mil tick ladder in the Mk8 attacker reticle. Bag the Hun is most useful for 5-30 degrees low E deflection shooting. The manual assumes it's audience already understands as you increase your turn past a 30 degree deflection, you increase your G and can't hit anything. The 100mph principle assumes you understand this and will be shooting in an unloaded condition. Otherwise you will be pulling a turn with so much G that the con will be under your nose while your bullet drop will be about 20ft at 1000ft. Yes there is a condition that this under nose blind shot works but, it's under 75yds while you suddenly pull hard shooting and hoping you are avoiding a collision message.
Remember, don't unsip this in your game sights folder. And every gunsight.bmp file has a gunsight.mil size control file that has t be copied with it into the game's sights folder.
Download Link ===>> http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/26509442/file.html
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100mph Principle.
For every 100mph your con travels at, lead by 50Mil(1 radius of your 100Mil main ring) while that con is traveling 90 degrees of your line of travel at 1000ft(333yds). This holds true from 45-90 degrees. In low E turns or a con traveling at 5-30 degrees of your line of travel, lead accordingly with the first 50Mil radius of your 100Mil main ring.
Here is a link to my Historic Package. It has a ww2 manuals folder with all of this, including a NAVY glide bombing manual to use the 125Mil tick ladder in the Mk8 attacker reticle. Bag the Hun is most useful for 5-30 degrees low E deflection shooting. The manual assumes it's audience already understands as you increase your turn past a 30 degree deflection, you increase your G and can't hit anything. The 100mph principle assumes you understand this and will be shooting in an unloaded condition. Otherwise you will be pulling a turn with so much G that the con will be under your nose while your bullet drop will be about 20ft at 1000ft. Yes there is a condition that this under nose blind shot works but, it's under 75yds while you suddenly pull hard shooting and hoping you are avoiding a collision message.
Remember, don't unsip this in your game sights folder. And every gunsight.bmp file has a gunsight.mil size control file that has t be copied with it into the game's sights folder.
Download Link ===>> http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/26509442/file.html
Wonderful! Thank you so much for all of the work you put into this!
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Was playing around with it last night against the drones offline, and damn, does that work. diving down at about 45 degrees deflection, throttled back (but no gear) in the Corsair, line the bandit up on the 100mil ring, open up at ~400yds on the range counter (guns harmonized at 300yds), and BAM, every time. Under 45 degrees using the 50mil ring was the same results.