Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 06, 2001, 11:22:00 AM
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..and remember how I was asking if the tires blew? Well, here's a photo (1 of 8 I received today) of one set of landing gear...LOL!
(http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1722739&a=13570446&p=53852679)
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Here's a few more images:
Another image (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1722739&a=13570446&p=53852924)
And another (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1722739&a=13570446&p=53852923)
Tracks left by tireless rims (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1722739&a=13570446&p=53852925)
"Hi, I'd love to stop and chat, but I have to go clean out my shorts..." (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1722739&a=13570446&p=53853228)
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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"Airbus, maker of the A330 that glided for 20 minutes before landing safely on the Azores Islands Friday, said the fuel leak was caused when a fuel pipe and a hydraulic pipe feeding the right engine rubbed together.
Rolls-Royce, manufacturer of the jet's two engines, had issued a service bulletin in March, 1999, modifying the two pipes to ensure adequate clearance between them."
There you go. Obviously it was a manufacturer/engineering error. They didn't allow enough clearance between the hydraulic and fuel lines, so they rubbed and made a hole in the fuel line.
Oh, wait.. that CAN'T be...
"She confirmed the plane's right engine had been changed four days before the mishap after a routine check detected metal filings in the engine oil. The change, which was performed by Air Transat mechanics, would have required the reconnection of the fuel and hydraulic pipes."
That's it! It was a mistake by the mechanics! Or at least an airline management mistake for not "getting the word" about the service bulletin to the line mechanics. Anyway, couldn't be an engineering defect.
Oh, wait.. that CAN'T be...
"Investigators are trying to determine how the plane, which had been adequately fuelled before takeoff, could have lost enough fuel to cripple both engines. The plane is designed to allow fuel leaks to be isolated and valves closed to stop a leak."
NOW we have it! They had plenty of fuel but those BLOODY PILOTS goofed up! It couldn't be a management or mechanic error.
Pilot Error! That's IT!
It's not that the manufacturer/engineers initially designed it so that the pipes rubbed together.
It's not that the airline failed to inform it's mechanics of the service bulletin.
It's not that the mechanics who changed the engine failed to perform the service bulletin.
It's that the PILOTS incorrectly assessed the situation and dumped the fuel overboard through the leak.
...ah.. we can rest easy now!
"There is no problem so complex that it cannot simply be blamed on the pilot.
— Dr Earl Weiner"
:D
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Those yoke monkeys always screw up!
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Pilots are goofy crazy morons, they almost got everybody kilt!
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errrm Canadian Airlines is Air Transat?!
srry if i should know this...
SKurj
btw they got a $250,000 fine for the installation of the wrong components in the engine which lead to this incident
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Very good reply toad
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Originally posted by SKurj:
errrm Canadian Airlines is Air Transat?!
srry if i should know this...
SKurj
btw they got a $250,000 fine for the installation of the wrong components in the engine which lead to this incident
Call sign TSC236
Airbus 332
Air Transat
Canadian Airline
Flying from Canada to Lisbon
Diverted to Lajes with fuel emergency
293 POB
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Air Transat is an airline based out of CANADA...not Canadian Airlines (which was merged with Air Canada).
Toad I like your post you hit the nail on the head.
1. Manufacture screwed up in design.
2. Company screwed up getting their bellybutton in gear to fix the glitch.
3. Mechanics screwed up in the change over.
4. Pilot screwed up allowing plane to run out of fuel.
Result --- 300 people almost died.
Now let me explain the pilot error part. And let me first say I'm no pilot and have nothing to do with any airline. As I understand it the pilots knew they were losing fuel and rather than let the engine die they transferred fuel over to the side that was leaking thus causing the fuel to run out completely.
In the end after all is said and done the pilots (who are hero's for gliding a 40ton airplane 100 miles) will likely take the brunt of it.....even though they don;t deserve to.
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Originally posted by skernsk:
Air Transat is an airline based out of CANADA...not Canadian Airlines (which was merged with Air Canada).
Duuh, no toejam Sherlock! (Think Canadian as in "the country it came out of.." ya dip!)
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Leave Skernsk alone, he's a Canuck, and therefor deserves our pity. :p
SOB
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Heheh rip is just afraid that his BOING paper plane company will go kaputt now that European companies know that the Americans are using Echelon to steal industrial secrets from major European aircraft manufacturers and are taking steps to make it a wee bit harder.
:D ;) :cool:
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Sounds like the mechanics messed up the fuel shut-off spar valve too.
It just kept leaking and leaking after the pilots surely pulled the T-handle before transfering all the fuel overboard.
:eek:
Actually, pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Topped out Mechanic - $38/hour
Topped out Dispatcher - $47/hour
Tooped out Captain - $270?/hour. Just enough to be a hero when they forget to watch their fuel. :p
(rates projected per recent contracts, not sure what the pilots will be raking in)
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[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Quote:As I understand it the pilots knew they were losing fuel and rather than let the engine die they transferred fuel over to the side that was leaking thus causing the fuel to run out completely.
Erm, Airbus 330 won't fly on one engine? :eek:
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Yeah, you have to wonder why such a big disparity, eh Creamo?
Maybe you guys oughta join ALPA or APA. :p
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AMFA.
Less pie for pilots, safer air travel, FINALLY. Its coming, 2002.
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I wish you the best of luck with it but...
remember: The only thing worse than a Union is No Union.
And I'd suggest you get them to bake a much bigger pie. Because if History teaches anything it's that when the pilots take a pay cut everybody else on the airline does too. You've probably experienced this phenom yourself.
Looks like we're getting into those times again.... Why poor old Wolf and Gangwahl are only splitting $41 million because the UAL merger failed. (They have to be rewarded for the immense effort they put into that EXCELLENT idea.) Only $41 million between them (in addition to their regular salary of course)! So you know times are tough.
What do you think the US Air employees will get because the merger failed?
You're always aiming the gun at the wrong people Creamo. ;)
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Toad,
Naw, you missed the point. Mechanics NEVER do anything wrong, thats why we are gods in our own right! Why just the other day we received a call to check as to why a thrust reverser was failing to deploy on a "airline that uses tons of contract maintenance". Further investigation turns out that the whizbangers from the only major contract company still around (it begins with an S) had neglected to finish installing the hookups to the actating servos, and on top of that, had the audacity to get hostile when questioned over it and why they failed to finish the job. From what little I discerned (I do not understand gibberish English) the shreck up was done in Newark and by contract company, that apparently when the mechanics shift ran out, he simply closed the area up and stopped work. Meanwhile he still finished out his paperwork stating the job was done so he could get his time credit thus being paid. When questioned as to why he had done this, he claimed that he could not understand the directions he was given by the maintenance supervisor as his English was poor.
It seems to me, that this type of crap is going to continue to get worse until enough people finally put their foot down and say "enough." Institute tougher tests for A+P's and specialise them into areas, and make damn sure they speak / comprehend the language their damn manuals are in. Hey, it is only worth our lives.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Duuh, no toejam Sherlock! (Think Canadian as in "the country it came out of.." ya dip!)
So if someone said an American Airlines 747 blew up you wouldnt think they meant an "American Airlines" 747?
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Ya Rip quit buggin us canucks :p.
May a seagull christen your newly aquired,washed and detailed German Automobile.
:D
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Originally posted by Pongo:
So if someone said an American Airlines 747 blew up you wouldnt think they meant an "American Airlines" 747?
Big difference between "An" American Airlines and saying "the"American Airlines
"An" would be designating a specific carrier.
They teach the difference in 2nd grade here in America.
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Holy toejame Rip! You fediddleing blew a gasket over nothing.
I merely wanted to point out the "possible" confusion in the post.
ie: The Canadian Airlines Airbus.
You can argue all ya want but it does leave the door open for some confusion.
Enough said....wasn't trying to piss all over your post Rip. :)
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Skernk, all I have to say is:
"Blame CAN-NA-DA...Blame CAN-NA-DA"
(Think Southpark) :D
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Sorry, Creamo, I think Toad's got it here.
Airlines are like any other major operation run by know-nothing MBAs (Think Hospitals, for a similar case). There's one group of highly-trained specialists who are sacred (Doctors). There's another group of idiots whose numbers and paychecks seem to keep growing because they're the ones who run the company (administrators). Then there's the highly trained support staff that actually does the work that's the first to get screwed every time they slash the budget (RNs), as well as all the other associated personnel who just get flushed down the toilet.
But when most people make a decision on hospitals, they think of the doctors.
And, the airline pilots are getting paid a decent wage, and that's so that when something goes wrong, we can blame them. :D
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No, no, no Toad, Im not pointing a gun at anyone. Goofing on the pilots a bit yes, but not blaming them entirley for the wage disparities. These CEO's that make 40million in bonuses, and a flying public that demands and EXPECTS to fly a modern jetliner from SFO to JFK for under $200 is to blame. Add in Buch who will not alow airline strikes because, duh, it will cripple the economy.
The problem with the wages is as a A&P you can go to work and make more at Disneyland. Many of the top professionals have moved to diffrent industry. As a example, a crew chief gets paid $1.50 more an hour. And that is supposed to make a highly responsible job competative? People will bid it with little or no experience.
Cutting costs at the maintenance level is absurd, just as Bohdi said of the contract mtx prove. I've seen some toejam that would flat out scare you off flying. Sometimes I think the pilots realize this, then go back to reading Yahting Unlimited forgetting as soon as it all goes wrong up there, they are just passengers on the way down. Certainly you have seen this" Oh well, you could have chose to fly" attitude, instead of working with the MTX unions to fix a possible pending disaster.
It's a long, LONG topic best left for the union BBS. (good analogy Ding)
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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I've said it on this BBS before and I'll say it again:
I think you guys are underpaid and underrespected; always have been.
However, the idea that "the pilots get too much of the pie, we need to take some of it from them" is a nice idea, fostered by Management, to get the employees focused on fighting each other....
while they all meet at the ATA week-long parties and brag about their $40 million dollar bonus and how they just nailed their employee groups for more concessions.
(Bet I really sound Republican now, don't I? LOL.)
Bottom line: you want pay and respect, you will have to fight for it. YOU will have to fight for it... no one ever fights for the other guys pay.
In this part of the Century, it's a damn tough proposition. (Of course, it never was easy, I guess.)
As I said, Good Luck to you guys.
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Dinger, I gotta disagree with you a bit :).
My father's a doc. My sis is a med student about to finish off her last exams.
Both work very hard. Both have jobs with a very high level of resposibility - there ain't no rebooting or reformatting if you screw up in that line of work.
Nurses are very important to hospitals - and are under-appreciated. But don't take that out on the poor docs who at least here are overworked big time and make *very hard decisions* that requires of them a lot of the knowledge they've accumulated throughout their academic training and practical experience. Nurses can't do the job of a doc - and in general, docs have a helluva lot more responsibility.
I am glad that I ain't the one having to be out ther, fresh outta med school and facing having to make decisions that potentially could mean the difference between the life or death of another human.
Bureaucratic organisations such as hospitals are generally set up in such a way that routine work can be governed by rules - and 90% of the players involved are necessary, one way or another. All contribute. Including docs :).
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Hey Santa....
You know the difference between Doctors and Airline Pilots, right?
Doctors get to bury their mistakes one at a time. ;)
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The only thing worse than a Union is No Union... Amen brother, but you forgot the military version of the Union, Congress, so...
The only thing worse than No Union is Congress acting as your Union. From talking to our Nato brothers here at Sheppard, it's the same all over the world when your employer is also the only group who can (by law) be your advocate. The USAF isn't the only organization losing it's most expensively trained people to companies that seem to give a toejam about them in the long term.
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FYI: http://www.tc.gc.ca/releases/nat/01_h107e.htm (http://www.tc.gc.ca/releases/nat/01_h107e.htm)
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hiya all:
well I am glad the pilot did not freak out and was able to land the plane. and I am sure all the people on board and there familys are glad the pilot was able to land the plane.
it sure as hell could have been worse then it was.
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Well I find this whole incident interesting 'cause
1:The plane ran outta gas cause pilots were sleeping or routed gas to wrong engine.
2:An"Alert Service Bulletin" is just a weak manufacturer's warning when they not sure of something.If they were truly concerned an "Air Worthyness Directive" would have been issued mandating what parts are compatible.
3:The Press...Making a hero outta the pilot..He was lucky he wasn't 10 minutes later when he made couse correction..Remember the Gimly Glider when that Jet ran outta gas and glided down onto a drag strip?..He was a hero in the press until he was charged with negligence...Failed to manually check fuel levels when gas gauges were inop..Trusted ramp rats with fuel load calculations.
When the toejame hits the fan on this one,the mechanics will go down as the only ones who did their job right.RR and Hero pilot will get reprimanded.
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Sirloin, if I may add a few comments to what you have written.
Well I find this whole incident interesting 'cause
1:The plane ran outta gas cause pilots were sleeping or routed gas to wrong engine.
The pilots were not sleeping, but tried to identify a problem and determine what
exactly was wrong on the plane, and how best to fix it. The problem was a leaking
fuel line between the fuel boost pump (in the tank) to the fuel feed filter (on
the engine).
The crew was alerted with a master caution and low fuel pressure alarm as soon as
the line developed a leak. That much they have said. All they knew at that time
was they had an alarm, but not how much fuel they were leaking.
All Airbus planes use fuel to keep the planes in trim when flying. The planes have
fuel tanks in the wings, and tanks in the nose and tail that fuel can be pumped in,
to trim out the weight. This is a design that is used to qet as much fuel economy
as possible out of a flight. Any time you have to trim a surface for a straight
and level flight, you create drag and less fuel economy.
The flight crew could have closed the fuel crossfeed valves, which would have stopped
the fuel flowing from the good tank to the leaking tank, or used the fuel scavenge
pumps to pump the remaining fuel from the leaking tank to the good tank. The crew
may have calculated they had enough fuel remaining to divert to Layes Airport, only
to come up around 90 miles short. Only the flight crew will be able to say what
happened that night.
2:An"Alert Service Bulletin" is just a weak manufacturer's warning when they not sure
of something.If they were truly concerned an "Air Worthyness Directive" would have been
issued mandating what parts are compatible.
"A 1999 Rolls-Royce service bulletin instructed operators on how to modify both pipes
to ensure adequate clearance between them. The modification involved swapping the pipes
for different part numbers that won't come in contact with each other.
The Air Transat A330's No 2. engine had a new-style fuel pipe, which the bulletin calls
for, but an old-style hydraulic pipe, according to information released by the manufacturers.
The plane's No. 1 engine had the modification done correctly, and its fuel and hydraulic
pipes showed no signs of wear or chafing.
When doing the bulletin modification, Rolls-Royce told operators in the post-incident
telex, both the new fuel pipe and new hydraulic pipe must be used "to avoid a hard contact."
Investigators are focusing on an engine change done five days before the incident as
the potential source of the problem. The No. 2 engine that Air Transat was putting on
the A330 needed a hydraulic pump, and the recommended service bulletin wasn't done.
In doing the work, mechanics apparently mixed the type of fuel pipe called for in the
bulletin with an old-style hydraulic pipe."
When the toejame hits the fan on this one, the mechanics will go down as the only ones
who did their job right. RR and Hero pilot will get reprimanded.
The flight crew did manage to save every life on that plane, and for that we're all grateful.
Events.
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I have to quote Bob Mason from "Chickenhawk" on this one. If the rotor came off in flight and the helicopter crashed, killing everyone aboard, the judgement was usually "pilot error".