Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: -ammo- on January 07, 2015, 11:04:34 AM
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If you haven't already seen this, and likely many have, it is interesting.
I am surprised by the very small amount of damage done by the round :O <sarcasm>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk
I really wish we could imbed YT videos in this forum....
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Heh...neat!
This makes sense of something that came up in a recent conversation.
I've been flying IL-2 Cliffs of Dover multiplayer recently. That game models the different ammo types used by both sides, and you can define custom ammo* loadouts for your plane. I fly the 109 E-4 mostly and usually load up the wing cannons with a mixture of the 20mm M-Geschoss (HE) and Panzerbrandgranate Phosphor o.Zerl (AP incendiary) rounds....heavily favoring the 20mm M-Geschoss as its generally acknowledged as the most effective.
The first time I used them I was surprised by the results. They look very impressive when they hit and certainly do damage, but I expected much more out of them (whole wings coming off from just a few hits, etc). I mentioned this on the TS server and one of the other pilots told me he read they are modeled to on actual test data. This video seems to underline the damage potental is modeled fairly well when I compare what I see in the game to the damage from the larger 30mm HE rounds in the test film.
I admit the lack of damage could also be due to my bad aim. :D
Thanks for posting!
* No pun intended. ;)
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This answers many questions.
I suppose the next one would be a shot in the fuselage to see what kind of damage it did there.
In-game when hit by the 30mm the plane typically blows up or the tail comes off. Considering the damage to the wing I would expect in real life the wing would not come off but fold upwards like a Navy plane being stored. This of course would cause the catastrophic loss of control cited in the video. Also, in real life I would guess that the tail would not come off though likely a catastrophic fire would result, likely all control surface wires severed. Both of these would be fatal.
Great info. I'll never question the umpf of the 30mm again.
boo
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There is a video of a 30mm exploding in the fuselage between the wing and the tail of a Blenheim. It was hung there and remotely exploded.
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A postwar study of 50 caliber ammunition found that only API (armor piercing incendiary) was effective in downing enemy aircraft. The reason being that it set off secondary explosions, namely fuel and ammunition. Ball ammo was only effective if it hit the pilot or some major load bearing structure.
On a side note, if this Spitfire was considered to be lost due to the destruction of control cables, what about aircraft like the F4U and FW-190? They both used control rods for aileron control.
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A postwar study of 50 caliber ammunition found that only API (armor piercing incendiary) was effective in downing enemy aircraft. The reason being that it set off secondary explosions, namely fuel and ammunition. Ball ammo was only effective if it hit the pilot or some major load bearing structure.
On a side note, if this Spitfire was considered to be lost due to the destruction of control cables, what about aircraft like the F4U and FW-190? They both used control rods for aileron control.
Good point. I'd think control rods might have a better chance of resisting the effects of indirect damage from explosives.
Does anyone know if the A6M used HE ammo (like the 20mm M-Geschoss) in the wing cannons? I'm pretty sure those cannons were licensed copies of the German MG/FFs. Just curious if the ammo was similar and if that the use of HE rounds might partly account for the reputation of Navy planes taking enemy fire but still able to return to the CV.
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Control rods would most likely get jammed.
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I"ve seen photos online at I think at the Carl library or NatArch of 30mm test on a Blem. bomber. Blew a hole in the fuselage the size of my front door. Surprisingly the air frame ribs were hardly damaged. I guess if there isn't a lot on contain the blast (like open fuselage) the blast is allowed to expand more readily unlike a wing hit where the blast is much more contained.
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Spitfire fuselage hit.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/split.jpg)
Blenheim fuselage hit. (Must be the static test MiloMorai mentioned.)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/mk-108_blenheim.jpg)
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20 mm hit on a 109 tail.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Bf-109%20Damage.jpg)
.50 cal hits on a 109 wing.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/50-cal-hits.jpg)
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What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.
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What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.
If the round was HE rather than an AP I could see where the engine might still run, 30mm or otherwise. Engines being just a big block of steel the explosion would cause damage to hoses, pipe work, etc...which might let the engine run for a bit before the oil ran out, engine overheated etc. I'm not a mechanic... but that seems plausable to me.
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They hit really hard in real life. Here is what happens to a engine
http://youtu.be/rDOAb_E8EtU
http://youtu.be/4sFpis5A_7k
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They hit really hard in real life. Here is what happens to a engine
http://youtu.be/rDOAb_E8EtU
http://youtu.be/4sFpis5A_7k
That first vid with the B-17 showed fuel fires…the hits were in the #1 and #4 fuel tanks.
The B-24 vid was probably a hit to the turbocharger on the #2 engine.
Very difficult to get an engine hit on either of those aircraft from dead 6 like that.
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What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.
If the round was HE rather than an AP I could see where the engine might still run, 30mm or otherwise. Engines being just a big block of steel the explosion would cause damage to hoses, pipe work, etc...which might let the engine run for a bit before the oil ran out, engine overheated etc. I'm not a mechanic... but that seems plausable to me.
Damage to lines, hoses, and wires is most likely. Remember that the engine is in most cases surrounded by the aircraft skin and the round would not detonate against the engine block, cylinder head, etc. That said, a hit near the intake/ supercharger assembly would result in immediate damage to the internal engine components via FODing. Also, given the strength of the 30mm round's explosive charge I could see the concussion forces being high enough to possibly fracture the block or cylinder head. Either way, a hit near the engine would likely knock it out fairly quickly.
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That first vid with the B-17 showed fuel fires…the hits were in the #1 and #4 fuel tanks.
The B-24 vid was probably a hit to the turbocharger on the #2 engine.
Very difficult to get an engine hit on either of those aircraft from dead 6 like that.
108 MG is deadly...
Brutal videos really...
First video - tail gunner was definitely killed. Possible deaths in the mid section and upper turret on the B-17.
Second video - tail gunner killed and left side gunner.
Seems we sometimes forget that while these video's are interesting from a weapons effectiveness, there were very young American boys in our bombers trying to defend their aircraft when the Luftwaffe aircraft suck on their six and killed a bunch of them. All of them had mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and some had wives and children. Not wanting to be a sour sally, but we need to be mindful of what they actually show.
:salute
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Nor should we forget what they were trying to do and why they were being intercepted and killed. War is hell.
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I landed six 30mms on the nose of a ki84 head on collided and he flew off seemingly undamaged.
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I landed six 30mms on the nose of a ki84 head on collided and he flew off seemingly undamaged.
Proof the Japanese used Adamantium spars and plating in the design.
:rolleyes:
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They hit really hard in real life. Here is what happens to a engine
http://youtu.be/rDOAb_E8EtU
http://youtu.be/4sFpis5A_7k
Neither one of these videos shows any MK108 30 mm hits. The first is a FW-190 with air-to-air rockets. The second is a 110 with 20mm.
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No rockets.
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At 0:13-0:14 you can see the airburst.
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At 0:13-0:14 you can see the airburst.
I don't understand why it didn't just have a huge fragment of the wing blown off or the whole thing just blow up.
I did notice what looked like an air burst but I dunno.
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Cameras in those days were not very good especially in combat conditions. The fact remains that there just isn't any known publicly available film of the MK108 cannon (as used in combat) in existence. The real giveaway in the second video is the audio. Even if the German cameras had that capability it would not have been the same quality as that video on YouTube.
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At 0:13-0:14 you can see the airburst.
German 20 mm and 30 mm aircraft armament used ammunition with self destruct fuses.
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The real giveaway in the second video is the audio. Even if the German cameras had that capability it would not have been the same quality as that video on YouTube.
The audio is obviously added in post. No WWII gun camera records audio. However I fail to see what the audio has to do with the authenticity of the video.
Those are both clips from a training film used by Luftwaffe aerial gunnery schools. Here's the whole reel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuxpnx4Tic
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Do some research. When I was working audio for my sound pack I tried to find sources of the original equipment for just about everything. The MK108 30mm audio or gun cameras of any sort from WWII in combat do not exist in any accessible form. You can check with anyone you want (Smithsonian, Dayton, etc.). If it exists at all it will be in cold storage in Russia, or in a private collection. At this point it would be priceless, so I wish you luck.
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What are you on about? Luftwaffe gun cameras did not record audio. Nor did the Allies' gun cameras for that matter. If you find any WWII gun camera footage with audio then the audio has been added to the video in post. That has no bearing on the authenticity of the video. No more so than if music was added.
You're writhing as if you know what you're writing about, but you don't. There are no rocket attacks in those videos, only cannon/MG. The puffs you see are the shells that missed being detonated by the self destruct fuse.
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It's what I am writing that you are refusing to accept. There are no gun camera footages of a MK108 30mm used in combat. If you find one on YouTube that states that it is then it is a fake.
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Because you, the God of the intardnetz, didn't find it? LOL! Could you be more full of yourself. None of the segments specify the armament of the attacking airplane, but several of those 190A-8's in the Luftwaffe training film are probably armed with the MK 108. Same with the 110G-2's.
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That's probably the smartest thing you have ever said, Pred, which is an excellent reason for you to be ignored. It doesn't matter how many of your clique you pull into the forums you cannot change the fact that video of the MK108 30mm in combat simply does not exist. Nor does it change the facts I stated about the 109. It doesn't matter one whit what you think, or what childish insult you resort to. The facts remain as they are.
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Because you are the harbinger of facts damn it! LOL! You must not know what the word means.
There are no rockets in those clips. Accept it or not, there are still no rockets.
It is very likely that there are MK 108's in those clips. The weapon was in widespread use by Reichsverteidigung units who engaged the Allied bomber streams. The weapon was designed for it. Accept it or not.
Go ahead. Ignore everyone who challenges you and your completely unsubstantiated and unsupported "facts".
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Nope, the only thing you have on your side is "LOL." It's much easier to prove a positive, so prove that those videos are 30mm. What you will discover is that the very same video exists with the label "20mm" and "Wfr. Gr. 21."
Like I said already, if you find actual footage of the MK108 it will be priceless. You will never have to work again.
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Putting words in my mouth won't help you. There are no rockets in those videos. If there were they would produce large black flak puffs, not small white ones. The small white ones are cannon shells. Whether they are 20 mm or 30 mm I cannot say and have never made any claims about, but the relative size of the smoke puffs and destruction is an indication of what weapon was used.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=90m0VJaQCPOZsQSg_oDgAg&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DJVxtJULJ0KA&ved=0CBwQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNH2HallxlAxkiNs7oIi1GGQYP_qnA
First link I found. Mk108 30mm footage.
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Chalenge,
Whether you are wrong or right is irrelevant here. You have a very bad habit of dropping the other shoe in bits and pieces never just giving direct sources while using the time to insult your audience. You mention the films and their content tags to the full originals. 20mm and 21cm Wgr.
Give Predator a link to show this please so that he can compare films. MK108 Minengeschoss self destructed at about 1100m after the fuse was armed. By not giving links, you are in the same position you accuse Predator of being in.
We may need to get out the Krusty meter for the two of you.
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Supposedly the last frames of this is a 262 shooting up bombers. I guess 262 don't count for having MK108.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aReAJ4t_ShU
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Supposedly the last frames of this is a 262 shooting up bombers. I guess 262 don't count for having MK108.
There doesn't seem to be a way to really tell. Whoever edited the film put the shots of the 262s together with the gun camera films, but the gun camera films themselves don't indicate (as far as I can see) what sort of gun is being fired.
- oldman
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The real point here is Chalenge has some links to post for Pred.
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Bustr, the evidence is in the film itself. Little puffs of white smoke don't just self-create 20meters above a bomber. For the last fifteen years people have been claiming they have footage of the 30mm in combat. It all stems from one single episode of poorly informed narration from the History channel. Such footage does not exist. You should know that you cannot prove a negative. Instead, prove that there is. You can't.
I do not see where I insulted anyone, least of all pred.
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Now you are using the very same argument you dinged Pred for using to you. You are back to dropping pieces of the other shoe.
Links please to the original full films that have the tech annotations specifying planes and weapons involved. Your responses and refutations to Pred make it obvious to any reasonable person that you infer in your research you have seen them. Thus making you a spot expert on snippets of those films.
I looked for combat footage of BR 21 hitting bombers. Couldn't find any. Found one with a few frames of a 110 launching one just as it got shot to pieces by an escort. You can see what the launch blast and trail looks like but, nothing in terms of an aerial detonation or contact detonation into a bomber. Since it is an 8inch artillery HE round with 90lb of explosive, a direct hit against a bomber would remove the tail end or wing at the point of impact, closer to filmed detonations of 88 ack rounds hitting bombers. Not even the most energetic explosive cannon round in any of those films comes close to 90lb of HA41. Now 85 grams of HA41, yes.
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It's the same rocket as used in the Nebelwerfer artillery system. There is nothing even remotely close to a WGr 21 blast in those video clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtSTMYGEyaM
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Yes, the rocket motor but, the BR 21's war head was increased from 24lb of HA41 to 90lb specifically for the explosion effect to break up bomber formations. It's only us in this kiddy game who think in terms of actually hitting a bomber with that rocket or the 88's.
The greater percentage of destruction, damage, and loss of life in the air war with the bomber streams was from shrapnel. One German pilot in an interview talked about lobbing MK108 rounds from 1100m onto bomber formations so the self destruct would send shrapnel into the bombers. Other wise they were too slow to really get out safe. It would be nice if HiTech updated that feature to the MK108 and M103 Minengeschoss rounds.
Our game gives us a very distorted view of the air war over Europe.
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It's not a recreation of WWII, and a pretty arcade'ish sim compared to what's out there. Though it is a good balance for a MMO.
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Mk108 where mostly used by fw190a8r2, attacking from rear, shoot with 20mm at 400, close in point blank and deliver 2 second blow, almost a certain death for the Buff.
According to most resources Sturmböcken where almost impregnable to .50 return fire from buffs in front of it.
Unescorted buffs where deathtraps when Sturmgruppen found unescorted buff formations.
On occasion as many as 40 4-engined bombers where shot down during a single mission by fighters.
Sturmgruppen paid the price when escort fighters found them, some Sturmgruppen had 500% losses.
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http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8aflosses.shtml
8th AF - Heavy Bomber Heaviest Mission Losses
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Thank you for the link!
One of the best book about Defense of the Reich is "The Luftwaffe over Germany"
ISBN 978-1-85367-712-0
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What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.
Günter Rall once had a barrel burst of his engine mounted 30mm cannon. The plane was rocking, the engine stopped working immediately, the plane wasn't flyable anymore and he had to bail.
But damage in real-life was/is varying greatly.
Loose Deuce still active ? Nice to see you, save ! Greets to the squad !
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Heya Grendl, we are still kicking, I think we have a dozen or so active players, some squaddies are in Battle of Stalingrad (Il2)
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Heya Grendl, we are still kicking, I think we have a dozen or so active players, some squaddies are in Battle of Stalingrad (Il2)
I fly on there. Hit me up some time
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MiloMorai, any info on 15th AF losses ?
63 bombers and 13 escorts was lost 24 april 1944 alone, some of the "lost" buffs flew to Switzerland.
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Using the date in your post save,
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 315: 754 bombers and 867 fighters are dispatched to bomb airfields, aircraft production industries and targets of opportunity in Germany; the bomber claim 20-1-36 Luftwaffe aircraft and the fighters claim 124-6-58 fighters; 40 bombers and 17 fighters are lost; details are: ......
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/USAAFCombatOperations/Apr.44.html#sthash.lm8G7nI3.dpuf
Losses aren't stated for the 15th.
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Thank MiloMorai, I screw up the dates, it was the 29th april, not any other date.
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Numbers in Richard Davis' book say the highest single-target loss for 15th AF bombers was 25 February '44, mission to Regensburg, 32 bombers lost, though I can't find anything to back that up. A total of 8 bombers were lost the same day over two other targets in Austria.
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If it was February of 1944, why weren't the bombers being escorted? You sure that wasn't a typo and February of 43?
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Don't think the 15th was flying in Feb. 43. Mr. Wiki says 15th flew in support of Big Week, lost 89 buffs.
"The ‘Forgotten Fifteenth’ had paid heavily for its involvement in ‘Big Week’; striking from the south, flying deep penetration missions into Germany itself, the 15th AF’s bombers often flew for long periods without fighter escort, gunning their way in and out of the target area. In just four days of sorties, the 15th AF had lost 89 bombers and seven fighters from 500 sorties; an attrition rate of 16% of the total bomber sorties flown, and four times as great as the sustainable loss rate."
http://www.globalaviationresource.com/v2/2014/02/20/d-day-70-pt-3-operation-argument-the-big-week-bomber-offensive-february-1944/
Davis says the 15th lost 88 between the 20th and the 25th of September.
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A little more from that same site:
"The 15th AF encountered the Luftwaffe’s main strength and lost 33 heavy bombers of 176 launched to Regensburg. By contrast, the 8th AF lost a similar number – 31 aircraft – from a far greater number of sorties flown, with bomber strength numbering more than 700. It was another firm indication that unescorted heavy bombers could not hope to carry out their missions without severe casualties – the absence of long-range escorts meant that the 15th AF, unlike the 8th AF, bore the brunt of an opportunistic Luftwaffe which employed to devastating effect the tactics honed during combat in northern Europe, suffering interceptions from up to half a dozen single engine fighters at a time, rocket firing bombers and even air-to-air bombing.
In one raid against Steyr on 24 February, for example, all ten 15th AF B-17s in the rearmost formation were systematically shot down; it was clear that regardless of its gradually sapping strength, the Luftwaffe still posed a threat to the Allied Air Forces and when the opportunity arose, it could still deliver a terrible blow to the heavy bombers and their escorts.
Their contribution cannot be overlooked, for the 15th AF’s raids against Messerschmitt factories and other industrial targets had caused significant destruction and production delay and, to the benefit of the 8th AF, drew the Luftwaffe away from the northern target area. Having been hit hard by ‘Big Week’, the 15th AF withdrew from long-range bomber operations until sufficient escort fighters were available to escort the vulnerable B-17s and B-24s to their targets and back."
Davis' numbers are a bit different - he has a total of 175 15th AF heavies attacking on the 25th, but only 116 of them went to Regensburg, from which, according to him, 32 were lost. The next time the 15th's buffs flew was March 17th.
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save, this will give you monthly losses. It is broken down as 'due to enemy' and 'other'.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a542518.pdf
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The most devastating losses were the two 1943 raids to Schweinfurt and Regensburg. 60 bombers lost on the first raid and 77 on the second. With about twice that number of write-offs from damage. Completely unsustainable and the 8th withdrew from long-range missions for almost half a year until sufficient fighter escorts became available.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweinfurt%E2%80%93Regensburg_mission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Raid_on_Schweinfurt