Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lulu on January 21, 2015, 08:48:14 AM
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Is p51 zoom climb better then 109 and 190 zoom climb?
It seems the opposite in the game.
Or not?
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109's and some 190's better in the vertical.
Of the 109's a G14 and K4 are best in pure vertical, while the 109F, G2 and G6 do better in a vertical stall fight.
The 190A5 pretty much matches the 51 (I think) the A8 doesn't, nor the F8, the 190 D9, I dunno about that, and lastly the 152 does better.
Edit: I think the G2 and 6 might be able to keep up with a 51 under some circumstances.
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Climbing ability from deck: 109K4, 190D9, Ta152, P51D
Zoom Climbing ability from deck @ 500mph+ : Ta152, 109K4, 190D, P51D
At least this is how it seems to me. It feels like the P51 has the flight characteristics of a rock when you point the nose straight up.
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Thing about the P-51 is that you can maintain a good amount of control in a dive at greater speed than just about anything else. This greater speed can, if you're careful, be traded for altitude at a seeming greater rate (faster zoom) than anything chasing you, simply because of the compressibility of your opponent's aircraft while in a steep dive. Problem is it's climb rate isn't as sustainable as, say, a 109-[insert model]. But it gets you high up in a hurry.
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Is p51 zoom climb better then 109 and 190 zoom climb?
It seems the opposite in the game.
Or not?
Test them. From top speed on deck then pull vertical at 1-2Gs. Not that big of a difference.
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Test them. From top speed on deck then pull vertical at 1-2Gs. Not that big of a difference.
We just told him. :bhead
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Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
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Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
What!!! You shut your engine off when performing a zoom ?
Climb performance absolutely has an impact on zoom performance.
HiTech
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P51 is pretty poor compared to other uber mode rides.
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Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
Then how come my p40 can't zoom climb with a 109k4 :headscratch:.
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Is p51 zoom climb better then 109 and 190 zoom climb?
It seems the opposite in the game.
Or not?
there's one little thing that most people forget to include when comparing climb rates, zoom rates, etc. and that is the speed of the guy chasing you.
the other day I killed a 262 that was going a zillion mph on the ground so he claimed it was impossible for my pony to get him. he didnt know I was 10k above him and started the nose down dive to a point I thought he might pass and he did. almost compressed, overshot him, but I did nail him.
I have done the same thing to a la7 in my zeke...
climb rates, charts... mean nothing when you dont know exactly what the other guy's speed is.
semp
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Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
What!!! You shut your engine off when performing a zoom ?
Climb performance absolutely has an impact on zoom performance.
HiTech
If ever there was a time for a "BOOM! [mic drop]", this might be it. :lol
Might even be sig-worthy, actually...
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What!!! You shut your engine off when performing a zoom ?
Climb performance absolutely has an impact on zoom performance.
HiTech
Hehehehehehehehehe
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Didn't someone do a test of ballistic climbs awhile ago? IIRC the p38 was the one who got the highest for no reason other then not having to fight torque.
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Is p51 zoom climb better then 109 and 190 zoom climb?
It seems the opposite in the game.
Or not?
lulu, the example you are no doubt thinking of is the Clarence Anderson engagement that he mentions in most of his interviews, including the Dogfights episode that features him. The thing is that the engagement occurred at 28k and he was flying the 'B' model P-51. Also, the 109 he identifies as a 'G' model was likely a G-6, which certainly is outclassed at 28k where the P-51B is in its best performance range.
The way the history channel portrays the stall of the 109 is also not accurate, but the pilot of the 109 scrubbed his 'E' by pulling heavy loads before attempting the vertical zoom.
Nothing outside of AH performance in that story.
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IIRC the p38 was the one who got the highest for no reason other then not having to fight torque.
No reason? How about it's ability to retain energy better than quite a bit of the planes in this game? It's lack of torque isn't the main reason for the P-38s zoom ability and high energy retention.
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What!!! You shut your engine off when performing a zoom ?
Climb performance absolutely has an impact on zoom performance.
HiTech
oops....wrong quote.... :old:
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No reason? How about it's ability to retain energy better than quite a bit of the planes in this game? It's lack of torque isn't the main reason for the P-38s zoom ability and high energy retention.
IIRC - If i recall correctly - from the guy who posted that, the p38 got to around 7000 while the others to 6000-6500 in his test, and he said torque was the reason why, not me. This was awhile ago.
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Ya...I thought it was kind of a funny statement from a professional pilot....... :old:
We're talking in-game performance. Real life is a different story. In AH, there are many more factors, such as torque modeling, that affect functional climb rates. There's always outliers (e.g. Me 163), but you can hold this true as an overall rule of thumb.
For example, if we're trying to argue that X aircraft gains an overly-generous 800yds (2400ft) altitude difference in zoom climb over Y aircraft, most neglect that 800yds is still well within guns range and you're going to get shot by the guy you're trying to out-zoom climb. And that's an extreme example, most perform well within 1000ft of vertical climb distance of each other.
For all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter much when comparing two aircraft zoom-climbing at the same speed. That is the context of the original statement.
What matters most is low drag / higher aspect wing ratio. This equates to a decent amount of maneuverability, with much less induced drag. This allows the pilot to go from varying climb angles and avoid the opponent climbing to them, while retaining enough E advantage to continue zoom climbing.
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I did some tests for you AKAK
Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:
109K4 12.4k
190D9 12.4k
P38L 12.7k
P51D 12.5k
Ta152 12.6k
You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.
Dare I say skyyr was right?
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I did some tests for you AKAK
Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:
109K4 12.4k
190D9 12.4k
P38L 12.7k
P51D 12.5k
Ta152 12.6k
You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.
Dare I say skyyr was right?
Actually, you'd be saying HiTech is wrong since he's the one that said Skyyr was wrong.
Edit: nice passive/aggressive attack tho...not transparent at all, lol
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I did some tests for you AKAK
Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:
109K4 12.4k
190D9 12.4k
P38L 12.7k
P51D 12.5k
Ta152 12.6k
You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.
Dare I say skyyr was right?
Those test does nothing to affirm your statement that the lack of torque on the P-38 is the reason for it's excellent zoom climb capabilities. How do you explain the zoom capabilities of the A-20G/Boston III? Can't use lack of torque as an explanation for those two planes.
ack-ack
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How do you explain the zoom capabilities of the A-20G/Boston III? Can't use lack of torque as an explanation for those two planes.
Mass.
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I did some tests for you AKAK
Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:
109K4 12.4k
190D9 12.4k
P38L 12.7k
P51D 12.5k
Ta152 12.6k
You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.
Dare I say skyyr was right?
It appears he was right with the aircraft referenced as he corrected in a later post talking about in game modeling only...... :old:
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It appears he was right with the aircraft referenced as he corrected in a later post talking about in game modeling only...... :old:
I wasn't correcting the statement, I was simply clarifying. I didn't think that people would apply my comment regarding ingame aircraft performance to real life.
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Actually, you'd be saying HiTech is wrong since he's the one that said Skyyr was wrong.
Edit: nice passive/aggressive attack tho...not transparent at all, lol
I didn't say AKAK was wrong, I said I did some tests for him. I literally said the error margin was big, therefore my tests are no way hard evidence. What are you even doing here, you haven't said anything productive.
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Those test does nothing to affirm your statement that the lack of torque on the P-38 is the reason for it's excellent zoom climb capabilities. How do you explain the zoom capabilities of the A-20G/Boston III? Can't use lack of torque as an explanation for those two planes.
ack-ack
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant to imply that all the planes of that test basically had the same resulting altitude from a zoom climb starting at the same speed. And the reason the P38 was slightly higher was that it didn't torque over like the other planes did, it was able to use the last bit of its speed unlike the single engine planes who spun over before they reached 0 airspeed.
As for those two planes, weight and drag would come to mind... but what do I know.
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Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant to imply that all the planes of that test basically had the same resulting altitude from a zoom climb starting at the same speed. And the reason the P38 was slightly higher was that it didn't torque over like the other planes did, it was able to use the last bit of its speed unlike the single engine planes who spun over before they reached 0 airspeed.
As I pointed out, the test doesn't prove the claim that the lack of torque is the reason for the P-38's zoom ability. Yes, the lack of torque helps but it's not the main factor as was your initial claim.
Might want to look at Skyyr's reply for the answer as to why the P-38 has an excellent zoom ability.
ack-ack
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As I pointed out, the test doesn't prove the claim that the lack of torque is the reason for the P-38's zoom ability. Yes, the lack of torque helps but it's not the main factor as was your initial claim.
Might want to look at Skyyr's reply for the answer as to why the P-38 has an excellent zoom ability.
ack-ack
My bad then. It is not the, "main factor".
It was never a claim though, I was posting what I remembered someone else saying. Keep in mind that all the planes were within guns range of each other at their final altitude.
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I notice your test didn't include p40 f4f or any of the poor climbing planes :uhoh :ahand :bolt:
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I want to see this test done with an I-16! :old:
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500 mph in an open cockpit... :bhead
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500 mph in an open cockpit... :bhead
Very possible. :old: :banana: :banana:
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Very possible. :old: :banana: :banana:
Not for raynos. He would get tempted to stick his head out the side.
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Not for raynos. He would get tempted to stick his head out the side.
lol
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Whats wrong with sticking my head out of the sidee :uhoh?
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Whats wrong with sticking my head out of the sidee :uhoh?
Your neck would be snapped.
Maybe not that but you'd get some skin blown off. :aok
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i've got a strong neck from my late night "job" :uhoh.
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It a lot of factors to concider in this case. In the game u can loose a zoom climb for a lot of reasons even if u are in a better plane. Con having higher initial speed is one but he might also zoom in an angle rather than vertical in order to catch u and in that case he is helped by the lift from the wings.
I havent tested but in the case of ww2 fighters i have hard to belive that engine power alone had any dramatic effect on the zoom ability When compare one fighter with another. Atleast if u compare planes of the same era.
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Skyrs attempt to insinuate that in real life vs AH there are different effects of engine performance with regard to zoom climbs, is nothing but talking out his excrement orifice.
Now he is trying to back pedal on his claim that
Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have NOTHINGto do with climb performance.
by saying he was talking about real life vs AH.
Note the word NOTHING, not words like very little, or is the smallest of factors regarding zoom climb, but the word NOTHING.
Simple test. Take a plane and zoom with engine on and engine off. If climb performance (obviously it will be drastically effected with engine on vs off) has nothing to do with its top out alt of the zoom then the two tests should perform EXACTLY the same i.e. NOTHING different in the results.
Cripes I have done this 100 of times at different throttle setting in real life. With out a doubt my RV zooms higher at higher power settings.
I don't rant like this often, but when someone is trying to argue against basic physics I just want to show them as the knowledgeable person they really are.
HiTech
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Skyrs attempt to insinuate that in real life vs AH there are different effects of engine performance with regard to zoom climbs, is nothing but talking out his excrement orifice.
Actually, sir, my statement was based only on ingame performance between different aircraft, as Poison aptly exampled. Now, if you're saying that real life performs the same as AH, then my original statement should still stand, as the planes tested showed less than a 500ft variance, despite greatly differing performance. Given that 500ft is not enough to gain an advantage in a pure zoom climb situation (which I can say I do better than most here) and would still keep you in your opponents gun range, my original statement is indeed true.
I never stated once that engine performance didn't matter in real life. We are on a video game forum, and therefore a statement made without subjections or dependencies is assumed to apply to said video game. For example, I might say "Shooting a plane at 800yds is relatively easy" - that is understood to apply to the game, because we are talking about the game and that statement is true within the scope of the game. Applying that same statement to real life gunnery would make it false, as shots were rarely made at even half of that distance. However, no one would reasonably assume that I was talking about real life unless I prefaced my statement with "In real life, 800yd shots..."
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Skyrs attempt to insinuate that in real life vs AH there are different effects of engine performance with regard to zoom climbs, is nothing but talking out his excrement orifice.
Now he is trying to back pedal on his claim that by saying he was talking about real life vs AH.
Note the word NOTHING, not words like very little, or is the smallest of factors regarding zoom climb, but the word NOTHING.
Simple test. Take a plane and zoom with engine on and engine off. If climb performance (obviously it will be drastically effected with engine on vs off) has nothing to do with its top out alt of the zoom then the two tests should perform EXACTLY the same i.e. NOTHING different in the results.
Cripes I have done this 100 of times at different throttle setting in real life. With out a doubt my RV zooms higher at higher power settings.
I don't rant like this often, but when someone is trying to argue against basic physics I just want to show them as the knowledgeable person they really are.
HiTech
I don't think Skyyr was talking about a ballistic climb with engine off being the same as a ballistic climb with engine on in the game. I believe he meant with engine on full the ballistic climb would be similar in the aircraft mentioned...:old:
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I don't think Skyyr was talking about a ballistic climb with engine off being the same as a ballistic climb with engine on in the game. I believe he meant with engine on full the ballistic climb would be similar in the modelled aircraft...:old:
Precisely.
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I never stated once that engine performance didn't matter in real life.
Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
So which is it, are you stating that in real life climb performance doesn't matter, on in AH climb performance doesn't matter. I gave you a simple way to test in AH to prove you wrong.
It really doesn't make much difference because in all cases you are wrong i.e. incorrect, i.e. you are trying to back pedal on a statement you made.
One of the areas AH is extremely accurate in is basic performance numbers of things like climb rates, drag numbers, top speeds at all alts ect. If those are correct, zoom climbs have to match real life.
HiTech
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So which is it, are you stating that in real life climb performance doesn't matter, on in AH climb performance doesn't matter. I gave you a simple way to test in AH to prove you wrong.
It really doesn't make much difference because in all cases you are wrong i.e. incorrect, i.e. you are trying to back pedal on a statement you made.
One of the areas AH is extremely accurate in is basic performance numbers of things like climb rates, drag numbers, top speeds at all alts ect. If those are correct, zoom climbs have to match real life.
HiTech
Please show me where I said that engine performance didn't matter, or that I mentioned the words "engine" or "throttle" prior to you bringing it up. I didn't.
You interpreted my comment to mean that an airplane will climb the same regardless of power configuration. That is not how I meant it or implied it, nor did I bring power settings up, nor was I referring to any single aircraft with multiple configurations.
My statement was in regards to different aircraft being at the same airspeed. Despite their different engines and climb performance, they will all effectively zoom climb to the same altitude given the same configurations. This is because in WWII aircraft, the T/W ratios are both low enough and yet similar to each other that they don't grossly affect ballistic performance when comparing one aircraft to another. A 500mph P-51 will climb to effectively the same altitude as a "better climbing" 500mph TA-152 or D9, despite having poorer climb performance and less excess power.
Poison's test confirmed this, and I knew this from testing it myself several months ago. You could run the same test with each aircraft having their engines off and see that they still end up at virtually the same altitude as each other (albeit lower than they both would have been with engines running).
As a rule of thumb, T/W ratio is not a primary factor for WWII aircraft in combat ballistic climbs, nor is overall climb performance. Yes, maximum throttle is assumed, but no where was it suggested that you would zoom climb with less than max throttle. This is a given parameter for energy fighting tactics.
If my post read any other way to you, then I apologize. I can say with 100% transparency that the above is exactly how I intended my post to be interpreted originally.
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Please show me where I said that engine performance didn't matter, or that I mentioned the words "engine" or "throttle" prior to you bringing it up. I didn't.
WHAT? you still keeping to the line that climb performance does NOTHING to effect zoom, or are you just trying to change the subject?
HiTech
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WHAT? you still keeping to the line that climb performance does NOTHING to effect zoom, or are you just trying to change the subject?
HiTech
Again, you misunderstood the original statement. My previously reply outlined it as clearly as I know how to.
Differences in climb performance between WWII fighters (as in the net climb performance of each aircraft compared to another) don't have any major effect on their zoom climb results. The results posted backed this up. If that statement was false, the results would not have confirmed it.
My statement was the equivalent of stating that a T/W ratio of .5 is virtually the same and therefore indistinguishable in results when compared against a T/W of .49 or .47 in a zoom climb. You're coming in and stating that if you arbitrarily drop T/W to 0.0, my statement doesn't hold up. Nowhere did I suggest that T/W didn't affect aircraft performance, and that's a red herring. We were (and are) talking about relative differences between different aircraft in the same configuation, not absolute differences between different configurations of the same aircraft. You seem to be focusing on the latter.
I never said thrust or engine performance didn't affect zoom climb. I said that "most planes will zoom climb the same" and that any apparent advantages one has over another in a zoom climb are not due to differences in climb performance.
When a D9 matches and/or beats a K4 in a zoom climb (which it can), it has virtually nothing to do with the measured climb performance of the D9, as it's actually less than the K4's and it has a lower T/W ratio.
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Again, you misunderstood the original statement. My previously reply outlined it as clearly as I know how to.
Differences in climb performance between WWII fighters (as in the net climb performance of each aircraft compared to another) don't have any major effect on their zoom climb results. The results posted backed this up. If that statement was false, the results would not have confirmed it.
I understand perfectly that you are simply trying to save face by purposely trying to cloud the issue by changing the topic.
Why in the above statement did you change the word NOTHING (your original claim ) to "don't have any major effect"? Because those two words/phrases are not even remotely similar.
HiTech
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I understand perfectly that you are simply trying to save face by purposely trying to cloud the issue by changing the topic.
Why in the above statement did you change the word NOTHING (your original claim ) to "don't have any major effect"? Because those two words/phrases are not even remotely similar.
HiTech
I'm not trying to save face at all. The results posted by Poison showed my statement to be correct, ergo there's nothing for me to save. Even Canspec understood the context of my initial statement.
If I was wrong, then the planes with the highest T/W ratios would have the best zoom climbs. In many cases, the exact opposite is true. My statement is fully correct in terms of comparing zoom climb performance between two aircraft in similar configurations... which is precisely what the OP started this thread over.
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500 mph in an open cockpit... :bhead
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3497/3219132945_7f795227a6.jpg)
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I'm not trying to save face at all. The results posted by Poison showed my statement to be correct, ergo there's nothing for me to save. Even Canspec understood the context of my initial statement.
If I was wrong, then the planes with the highest T/W ratios would have the best zoom climbs. In many cases, the exact opposite is true. My statement is fully correct in terms of comparing zoom climb performance between two aircraft in similar configurations... which is precisely what the OP started this thread over.
word NOTHING (your original claim ) to "don't have any major effect"
So which of your statements (NOTHING or MAJOR) is correct and which one is wrong? Because the both can not be correct. I will not even begin to get into the problems in your above quoted reasoning. Because your simple statement of T/W ratio is completely meaningless with regards to prop driven planes because thrust varies with speed and hence with out other parameters T/W is meaningless .
HiTech
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(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3497/3219132945_7f795227a6.jpg)
:rofl
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So which of your statements (NOTHING or MAJOR) is correct and which one is wrong? Because the both can not be correct. I will not even begin to get into the problems in your above quoted reasoning. Because your simple statement of T/W ratio is completely meaningless with regards to prop driven planes because thrust varies with speed and hence with out other parameters T/W is meaningless .
HiTech
Here's my original statement:
Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
Climb performance, as I'm sure you're aware, is the sustained rate of climb (or RoC) that can be achieved for a given flight configuration. RoC, then, which is how we determine climb performance, and it is defined as the following:
"In aeronautics, the rate of climb (RoC) is an aircraft's vertical speed – the rate of change in altitude. In most ICAO member countries (even in otherwise metric countries), this is usually expressed in feet per minute (ft/min)."
Forgive me for quoting wikipedia, as my training materials are at home at the moment. However, the definition is correct.
Climb performance, then, can be summarized, or represented by RoC. My statement, logically, becomes:
Performance in a zoom climb has nothing to do with rate of climb.
This statement is correct.
You then brought up throttle settings, and I understand why - climb performance is chiefly dependent upon throttle setting, and adjusting the throttle setting would also affect zoom climb performance; however, climb performance is not synonymous with throttle setting. Otherwise, any plane at 100% throttle could be assumed to have the same climb performance as any other plane at 100% throttle. No, actual climb performance is based on multiple factors, such as throttle, flap settings, etc. I simply acknowledged where you were coming from, even though it's technically not the same subject nor are we discussing it.
The only reason I adjusted my wording is to account for outliers, as I mentioned in my second reply, such as the Me 163. Now, zoom climb might be dependent upon climb performance configuration settings, but yet again, this is not the same thing as the definition for "climb performance."
Again, the statement remains correct.
This was never about aerodynamic debates, it was about functional air combat rules. My initial reply still remains the same and unchanged: an aircraft's zoom climb performance has nothing to do with its sustained climb performance. The two are unrelated. This was understood apparently by the majority of the other posters here, and Poison and Canspec both readily understood the context of the statement. This is entirely what I meant from the beginning.
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So which of your statements (NOTHING or MAJOR) is correct and which one is wrong? Because the both can not be correct. I will not even begin to get into the problems in your above quoted reasoning. Because your simple statement of T/W ratio is completely meaningless with regards to prop driven planes because thrust varies with speed and hence with out other parameters T/W is meaningless .
HiTech
Dale,
But, but, but....that's what Shaw said on page 313 of Fighter Combat!!! It must be right!!!!!!
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Oh MAN things are going to be INterestig at the home office when Skuzzy has to lock THIS one...
That Clarkson pic was the first thing I pictured too with ray hangin his head out the cockpit lmao
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Dale :ahand skyyr
:rofl
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Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have nothing to do with climb performance.
Aye, this statement is true.
Provided said climb takes place in a vacuum, such as the one found in thine intracranial void.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
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We're talking in-game performance. Real life is a different story. In AH, there are many more factors, such as torque modeling, that affect functional climb rates. There's always outliers (e.g. Me 163), but you can hold this true as an overall rule of thumb.
For example, if we're trying to argue that X aircraft gains an overly-generous 800yds (2400ft) altitude difference in zoom climb over Y aircraft, most neglect that 800yds is still well within guns range and you're going to get shot by the guy you're trying to out-zoom climb. And that's an extreme example, most perform well within 1000ft of vertical climb distance of each other.
For all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter much when comparing two aircraft zoom-climbing at the same speed. That is the context of the original statement.
What matters most is low drag / higher aspect wing ratio. This equates to a decent amount of maneuverability, with much less induced drag. This allows the pilot to go from varying climb angles and avoid the opponent climbing to them, while retaining enough E advantage to continue zoom climbing.
Thou art punching far above thy weight.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
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Thou art punching far above thy weight.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
I wasn't aware punching was taking place. I thought we were having a logical, educated discussion.
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See Rule #4
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I wasn't aware punching was taking place. I thought we were having a logical, educated discussion.
Methinks’t thou art a general offence and every man should beat thee.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
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Please, whom do you think you are fooling. You aren't capable of that any more than you are capable of admitting you are wrong. You are a consistent sociopath at least.
Unless an individual is diagnosed a sociopath. Sociopath and Psychopathy look exactly alike to the layman. If any of you have been around these forums long enough, just let Hitech handle this. It is rare that he involves himself to this degree. We are only muddying the waters or taking advantage with cheap shots.
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I thought the difference was a Psychopath does wrong unknowingly but a Sociopath does wrong even knowing that it is wrong
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I thought the difference was a Psychopath does wrong unknowingly but a Sociopath does wrong even knowing that it is wrong
Actually the correct definition does not include right or wrong. It's based on societal norms (hence the root "socio"), not morality.
The Jews were quite literally sociopaths to the Nazis. Being classified as such doesn't make the Jews wrong by any means.
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^ beet1e?
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Actually the correct definition does not include right or wrong. It's based on societal norms (hence the root "socio"), not morality.
The Jews were quite literally sociopaths to the Nazis. Being classified as such doesn't make the Jews wrong by any means.
I request that thou refrain from soiling this assembly, with thine circumsized lies.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
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Actually the correct definition does not include right or wrong. It's based on societal norms (hence the root "socio"), not morality.
The Jews were quite literally sociopaths to the Nazis. Being classified as such doesn't make the Jews wrong by any means.
What in the hell?
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(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/214/369/xzibit_acid_cpd2.jpg)
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It is rare that he involves himself to this degree.
Correction - it is rare NOW that he involves himself to this degree. HT is being active in a couple other threads at the moment as well. In the last couple days HTC has said some much more direct things regarding a couple of issues, and having HT in the mix in various threads reminds me of the good old days. A lot. This coupled with the news about CT/Light possibilities have HTC charting arrow up right now. I'm quite enjoying this tbh.
edit -
Actually the correct definition does not include right or wrong. It's based on societal norms (hence the root "socio"), not morality.
The Jews were quite literally sociopaths to the Nazis. Being classified as such doesn't make the Jews wrong by any means.
It's not often I can't think of something to say...
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Actually the correct definition does not include right or wrong. It's based on societal norms (hence the root "socio"), not morality.
The Jews were quite literally sociopaths to the Nazis. Being classified as such doesn't make the Jews wrong by any means.
This is one way to get the thread closed to prevent further beatings.
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How 'bout them Mets!
I'm rooting for the Cubs come spring :)
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Let's see...P51 zoom thread...Jews. Yup...completely lost his mud. Can't say you didn't see that comin
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(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w460/Mar0100/wtf31c381815108.gif)
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The TA152's advantage is that it can come over the top of a loop at 36mph and still have control.
At super low fuel and with WEP it is hard to beat in the above regime.
It's "go to move" is the vertical loop whenever I run into one and I rarely see it do much else or it dies pretty quickly.
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*ahem*
Translation: IF A GROUP OF "SOCIOPATHS" labels another group "SOCIOPATHS", it doesn't automatically make the claim true.
Clearer now? Or would it be easier for some if we draw big pictures in crayon.
:rolleyes:
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/didnt-see-that-coming-11-gifs-13.gif~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/didnt-see-that-coming-11-gifs-13.gif.html)
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Let's see...P51 zoom thread...Jews. Yup...completely lost his mud. Can't say you didn't see that comin
:rofl
I guess Godwin's Law is correct.
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(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/214/369/xzibit_acid_cpd2.jpg)
:lol
http://youtu.be/Rl-rcmNLv8k
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*ahem*
Translation: IF A GROUP OF "SOCIOPATHS" labels another group "SOCIOPATHS", it doesn't automatically make the claim true.
Clearer now? Or would it be easier for some if we draw big pictures in crayon.
:rolleyes:
Exhibit A: emotional inhaler at work
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*ahem*
Translation: IF A GROUP OF "SOCIOPATHS" labels another group "SOCIOPATHS", it doesn't automatically make the claim true.
Clearer now? Or would it be easier for some if we draw big pictures in crayon.
:rolleyes:
Stayeth down, Rockey.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
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Exhibit A: emotional inhaler at work
It takes a lot more than your high school worldview to get me upset. :lol
Stayeth down, Rockey.
Yours in excellence,
Gen. Slamfire
Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces.
Speaking of mental cases...
Who are you? :rofl
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It takes a lot more than your high school worldview to get me upset. :lol
Speaking of mental cases...
Who are you? :rofl
It says in his signature, "General Slamfire, Air Chief Marshal, Elite Top Aces".
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If anything these on going whizzing matches with the derned is validating Kelly's Personal Construct Theory's third construct of Hostility.
Hostility, in Kelly's theory, is analogous to a scientist "fudging" his or her data. An example might be a professor who sees himself as a brilliant educator who deals with poor student reviews by devaluing the students or the means of evaluation.
And we have been devalued a lot by the derned for our views, along with fault found constantly in the physics of our game.
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It takes a lot more than your high school worldview to get me upset. :lol
I'm not trying to upset you, just making others chuckle at your expense. That thing you like to try to do and now you're taking exception to it lmao!!!!
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I'm not trying to upset you, just making others chuckle at your expense. That thing you like to try to do and now you're taking exception to it lmao!!!!
Edited....because it's just not worth it. :aok
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Most planes will perform a zoom (ballistic) climb the same. There's virtually no difference. Any differences that are present have very little to do with climb performance.
I'm trying to brown nose HTC(can I get a sneak peak of the new graphics, please please please!!!!)
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Has David Wales returned
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Stand back – It’s Supernova time.
Baiting a religion, obtuse discussions with the owner, upsetting Gen. Slamfire. This is pure heaven.
Spit XVI out climbs everything, by the way, on account it’s overmodelled.
The Muppets aren't really Muppets, I’m not a crustacean, there’s lots of the Few and the POTW aren't really Pigs, but I’ll wager you lot will be literally damned at some point.
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Edited....because it's just not worth it. :aok
Good decision
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Slamfire is my new hero
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Skyrs attempt to insinuate that in real life vs AH there are different effects of engine performance with regard to zoom climbs, is nothing but talking out his excrement orifice.
Sig worthy
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Has David Wales returned
HUZZAH!
Our lord and savior has returned! We're saved!
Hallelujah!
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See Rule #4
Please accept my apology. :salute
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Please accept my apology. :salute
Accepted. :salute
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My ideas about zoom climb are now more ... confused :O :rofl
TY
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geezzzzzzz you guys whenever i read a thread like this makes me laugh, what is a zoom climb? is that when you dive and reach 500 mph then climb back up burn off your e cause you cant turn or get blackout . i tried doing that about 100 times till i learned no e = easy target . in a 1v1 scenario i could see this valuable but in multiple aircraft scenarios sounds deadly. when i get a chance to fly the 51 and dive in at 500 mph i try to stretch my speeds out to get away from the mob before i climb up back to altitude and if i got trouble on my 6 its wep time see ya later till i can make any kind of turn to go back on target :bhead
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geezzzzzzz you guys whenever i read a thread like this makes me laugh, what is a zoom climb? is that when you dive and reach 500 mph then climb back up burn off your e cause you cant turn or get blackout . i tried doing that about 100 times till i learned no e = easy target . in a 1v1 scenario i could see this valuable but in multiple aircraft scenarios sounds deadly. when i get a chance to fly the 51 and dive in at 500 mph i try to stretch my speeds out to get away from the mob before i climb up back to altitude and if i got trouble on my 6 its wep time see ya later till i can make any kind of turn to go back on target :bhead
Zoom climbs don't leave you with out energy. Remember energy is not just speed. Zoom climbs convert your kinetic energy (speed) into potential energy (altitude). In multiple aircraft scenarios if you can obtain the altitude advantage it is much more desirable then a speed advantage.
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i guess thats why i always get shot down cause nobody wants to climb up and i get bored waiting circling around running out of fuel . still working on boom and zoom tactics so i will give it time
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i guess thats why i always get shot down cause nobody wants to climb up and i get bored waiting circling around running out of fuel . still working on boom and zoom tactics so i will give it time
You don't have to wait for someone to come up to you. If someone follows you up you can even cut your throttle if you are faster and turn around on them when they stop following you up, gaining their 6. It doesn't have to be extend 6k, dive back down at 600mph and extend back up like some people assume. You can get a lot more kills at only a slightly higher risk being more aggressive.
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This is one way to get the thread closed to prevent further beatings.
:rofl
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Stand back – It’s Supernova time.
Baiting a religion, obtuse discussions with the owner, upsetting Gen. Slamfire. This is pure heaven.
Spit XVI out climbs everything, by the way, on account it’s overmodelled.
The Muppets aren't really Muppets, I’m not a crustacean, there’s lots of the Few and the POTW aren't really Pigs, but I’ll wager you lot will be literally damned at some point.
How the hell did I get in this? :noid
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How the hell did I get in this? :noid
I'm pretty sure 3 was referring to our squad name, The Mighty Raw Prawns.
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How the hell did I get in this? :noid
No all good Krabby, not you. Just Prawns. By the way you were going to post a better picture of your pet crab. Cheers Mate