Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on January 27, 2015, 05:37:32 PM
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Yes, yes, yes the pilot is the main factor in ACM. However...
You ever see one of those guys in a P-51d that can turn with anything, near instantly make excess -E- appear and selectively fire one 50 cal bullet and hit the pilot? Well that's not me. Yep I can boom-and-zoom like anyone else in it though.
For me in many sorties I am just a few pixels off from getting a firing solution. Being a performance hypernut I test and keep stats on weird plane micro performance points. Recently the P-51d. I thought ya know it can: dive, fast, great viz, avg climb, can retain E good. What if I could fly it more like a turn fighter with my modest non-uber skills?
One notch flaps will already bring the turn radius in a 51d from 780 to 759. Not a spit by any means but what I found was the 4 x 50 cal package with 25% fuel was almost 1,000 pounds lighter than the 6x50 variant! I dont know if it changed the turn radius much but it felt noticeably lighter. I did find that it did climb just a bit faster (that is easy enough to measure - stats for this on my site BTW).
I found 4x50 with 25% can sustain 300 mph at 300 rpms (saving precious fuel). Also sustain a climb at 325 rpms. With 4x50 I brought convergence to 300. Many times 475 works in a 51d BTW (good for bomber hunting etc.).
I did some close base sorties throttling up when close to base. I really do think it made a difference. Rather than climbing to 15k+, I engaged Spits, 109s, and LAs at co-alt of 4-8k or so. Was not turning like a zero but flying smart I was able to get some shots in a 51d I could not before. I pulled off some moves that I think were not possible for me before hand (at blackout in some cases). I came out of blackout and was like Wha!! That worked? I'm alive!? LOL! :rock
I also took 50% fuel for bases further away trying to burn off as much fuel as possible. The tests continue...
Anyone else fly the 51d with just 4x50s lite?
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I take all the ammo I can carry in every plane. With my poor aim I need it all. For fuel, most planes it 50% and a drop. I'll even fight with the drop on if I haven't used much and Im "E" fighting a single guy. Ponies on the other hand 50% fuel is enough for most flights. Winging with Twinboom I bring more probably because he kills so fast I last longer :D Winging with MARK4 ( my other squadie) is hit or miss because his aim is as bad as mine. :devil
Heres a great film of some pony kills. Low alt, good speed control, great flap usage, and of course a good aim.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5c72lgl1q7992wh/51lulz.ahf
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Fugitive the 4x50cal gun package has more ammo :devil.
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When the 13TAS was active, we would have mandatory 50% fuel, drop tanks, and 6x50 cal. We found that if we flew with 50% fuel - it was a much better turning bird than full.
We would climb out on WEP, disable wep at 13'000ft (no wep there), and re-engage it to 15k+ and level out at 20k. When tanks were DT's were empty, or if we engaged, we dropped the tanks and had fun. We found cruising at 300mph was good at preserving fuel too when DT's were gone.
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Cool feedback - thanks.
What prompted me down this path a bit was finding the P-40n handling better with the 4 x 50 package BTW.
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6 machineguns is 50% more damage than 4 machineguns
When you have small windows for shooting you will need the extra damage for the fight to end fast. The P51D can have surprising turns at high speed, but on the long run acceleration will be a limiting factor and you will quickly find yourself at risk. You can use the flaps to help aiming like if you feel you are short on lead just pop one notch of flaps at the last second, even in a dive...
When I was active I used to mostly take 6 guns 75% no DT and change my tactics during the sortie:
wing fuel 100% : avoid any contacts on climbout. If nmies are within icon range at least level out, below 250mph don't attempt anything crazy :P If you are at speed there no harm to get a little pick on the way :devil I like having 75% no DT because even tho I am heaving because of the fuel, my top speed isn't impacted much. Droping DT's to then miss the fuel when a good opportunity comes up is frustrating.
wing fuel ~66% : stalls are easing out, you can look for a fight, don't mix up with a K4 tho and be careful with the slow acceleration...
wing fuel ~33% : have fun, if you are bored at altitude now is the time to come down to the nmy field and see what happens ^^
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P-51D lite:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/DSC_7226.jpg)
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Alright, since I have cancelled my Aces High account a while back, I am ready to give away my P-51 secrets. I will try to be as objective as possible. Though let me start by saying I loved flying the P-51 in Aces High.
Here is how to rack up kills in the P-51:
(1) For most sorties, take 50% fuel and 6 guns (converged at 300 yards).
(2) Climb at WEP to 10k. At 10k, the P-51 will cruise at 400mph. If you want a bit more speed, climb to 12k. Though going to 12k offers little advantage and uses up more fuel. Do not get into the 12+ to 18k range, as the supercharger is not geared for this altitude and the engine loses power.
(3)Fight in the vertical. Whenever there is a choice to make a vertical maneuver instead of a horizontal one, use the vertical maneuver. Deploy flaps as your airspeed drops below 150mph, but as soon as you finish the maneuver, clean up quickly.
(4)Keep your airspeed above 250mph when fighting in a target rich environment. This gives you speed to maneuver. The P-51 accelerates poorly.
(5)If you have to separate from an opponent, roll inverted and hold the stick forward until the G-meter reads "0". The reason for rolling inverted is to allow you to reverse direction quickly if your opponent stays on you, forcing him to push negative G's while you can pull positive G's.
(6) As related to number 5, whenever you need to spoil an opponents shot, force him to push negative G's. This is especially useful when fighting low and slow on the deck. If you are in a turning fight, get your plane as far below the enemy plane as possible. I can't tell you how many times this has saved me.
(7) When energy fighting, don't turn horizontally more than 60 degrees. Use the vertical and roll the direction you need. As said in number 3, use flaps as your speed bleeds off.
(8) When 1 vs 1 with an opponent, fight very aggressively in the first few seconds of the fight. This will catch your opponent unaware. For example, if you merge with a co-alt Spit, feel free to pull into a black-out immelman and drop full flaps to get a high angle deflection shot on him. If you start losing, revert to rule 5. If it shakes him up, clean your plane up, unload, and re-engage.
(9) Almost always turn to the left. The Mustang is much more stable in a left hand turn.
(10) Learn how to do the Rolling Scissors. It requires extreme use of rudder, balance, judgement, and timing. Roll to the left.
As Duke Cunningham said "You meet a better class of people in the vertical."
Anyone else have anything to add to this post?
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Anyone else have anything to add to this post?
That was a very useful post, Dave, thanks.
- oldman
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Go that way------------>really fast. When something gets in you way turn!
ER...wait. Wrong movie... :bolt:
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DaveBB thanks for sharing that. This community is always better for this type of open dialog. I think your points will work for most planes.
I am finding P-51d lite a very potent plane. Also more fun! Rather than coming in at boom-and-zoom altitude (15k+) I get to 6 or 8k and that is enough (unless bomber hunting). I engage in action faster. If 15k vulchers try to pounce - I have acquired numerous ways to deal with them.
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In my opinion, taking the 4 50 cals on the Delta never compensated for the lost firepower. If you can kill with 4 50's, the Pony Bravo would be a perfect fit for your flying style.
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In my opinion, taking the 4 50 cals on the Delta never compensated for the lost firepower. If you can kill with 4 50's, the Pony Bravo would be a perfect fit for your flying style.
I can kill more fighters with the 4x50s usually thanks to the extra rounds you get. Also the forward view in the p51D is better then the p51B making it much easier to aim and it almost feels like you can down planes quicker with the 4x50s in p51D then in the B model
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I can kill more fighters with the 4x50s usually thanks to the extra rounds you get. Also the forward view in the p51D is better then the p51B making it much easier to aim and it almost feels like you can down planes quicker with the 4x50s in p51D then in the B model
You don't get any extra rounds. There are 80 rounds more in the six gun configuration. The big difference is the weight of those two guns.
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The P-51B is geared different. It doesn't produce as much HP at low altitude. But above 25k it outpaces the P-51D. The differences are slight but noticeable.
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If I intend to do anything but BnZ I always prefer to be in the 4 gun version. Maybe it's a placebo, but that's fine, it makes me fly just that little bit better.
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Anyone else fly the 51d with just 4x50s lite?
If I want to do that, I hop into the P-51B - earns me four times the perks for every kill :devil
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The B will smoke any plane above 30k.
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If I intend to do anything but BnZ I always prefer to be in the 4 gun version. Maybe it's a placebo, but that's fine, it makes me fly just that little bit better.
Yeah that kinda forces you to not BnZ. Snapshots much harder. So you need to learn to fly the 51 to all its other attributes. Tons of ammo with the 51d 4x50s so you have more opportunities and options in that way using your guns over the 51b.
For lower altitude engagements (10k and down) crazy fun to engage the Spits\LAs in their domain and surprise them! :eek:
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The B will smoke any plane above 30k.
Not the 152, 4hog 47m 47n.
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And Spit14.
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Guys I'm tell'n ya that 51d lite is a very effective plane!
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You have found a combination of factors that works with your skillset. All of the contributors to your post have found similar combinations with their own favorite rides that they will swear like you are now, makes that ride incredible.
Ask YUCCA about D40's, 6 gun package with 25% and a drop tank on the deck with spits back in 06. But, again, now days it's the M with that load out. You sound exactly like one of my squad mates when he discovered the 6 gun package and low fuel in the M.
So what took you so long to figure it out??
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So what took you so long to figure it out??
Ignorance on my part. I was only flying and seeing the P-51d in one dimension. The way 90% fly it. Boom-n-Zoom.
I did some stats on it (see me stats page) and I thought, wow that bird sure is lighter in that config. I wonder...
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You have found a combination of factors that works with your skillset. All of the contributors to your post have found similar combinations with their own favorite rides that they will swear like you are now, makes that ride incredible.
Ask YUCCA about D40's, 6 gun package with 25% and a drop tank on the deck with spits back in 06. But, again, now days it's the M with that load out. You sound exactly like one of my squad mates when he discovered the 6 gun package and low fuel in the M.
So what took you so long to figure it out??
P47's Are best with 6 50cals :D :P :devil
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Anyone else fly the 51d with just 4x50s lite?
When I haul ord. Impressed with your tests regarding weight. I've done the same with the P47. Lastly, get 1 good bite with four 50 cals, someone else will down the con while the kill goes to you.
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Way back before I discovered my love affair with the 190, I flew the PonyD almost exclusively. I won't claim to be an expert, though more familiar than any noob.
I was of the opinion that the PonyD, 6-guns and down to 25% fuel - flown in the vertical - was good enough to fight anything. I had plenty of kills down on the deck stall fighting. As Dave notes, most other sticks expect the Pony to flash by and run. Hard aggressive turns cause most of them to make bad decisions. Actually, since they expect you to run-Stang they keep their "E" as high as possible and your aggressive turn (bleeding "E") gets them to overshoot most of the time. Then....close in for the kill and don't miss your shots.
boo
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If I want to do that, I hop into the P-51B - earns me four times the perks for every kill :devil
The more I read about P-51s the more I learn just how popular the P-51b was with its pilots. Yes many of them graduated to it from P-40s but also from P-47s. Ive read of some who preferred it over the P-51D, considering it the best of the Mustangs. That and the A-36 was considered the best dive bomber of the war by those who flew many different types. It may have carried less but Ive read accounts from many experienced pilots who thought it the most accurate of the dive bombers and a very fine low level scrapper too.
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You have found a combination of factors that works with your skillset. All of the contributors to your post have found similar combinations with their own favorite rides that they will swear like you are now, makes that ride incredible.
Ask YUCCA about D40's, 6 gun package with 25% and a drop tank on the deck with spits back in 06. But, again, now days it's the M with that load out. You sound exactly like one of my squad mates when he discovered the 6 gun package and low fuel in the M.
So what took you so long to figure it out??
A p47 that light flown right and aggressivly is a shocker for lots of folks. :banana:
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IRL many pilots did not like the P51d coming from P51b, because d-model was unstable at high dive speeds.
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Early D models had a problem with the wheel well doors. In a high speed dive, the landing gear door could accidentally open on one of the wings, and it would subsequently rip the wing off. This problem was later fixed.
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resources claim it was due to the bubble canopy that disturbed airflow over the tail.
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Early D models had a problem with the wheel well doors. In a high speed dive, the landing gear door could accidentally open on one of the wings, and it would subsequently rip the wing off. This problem was later fixed.
yikes :eek:
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resources claim it was due to the bubble canopy that disturbed airflow over the tail.
This is true. But this applies to all bubble canopy P-51s. The major incident of wing shedding was caused by the faulty wheel well doors. The problem was discovered and an extra latch was installed.
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In AH 109G must break off dive due to speed compression than the P51D , IRL it was the quite the opposite (but not B-model), again according to p51 pilot sources.
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The D model with 4 guns give you about 10 seconds more firing time than with 6.
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Might be an odd question, but what is the total firepower of both planes? I mean, even if u got less guns, u got more ammo(firing time) : might be "smartest" to take the "less gun package" at the end...? Your opinion?
The D model with 4 guns give you about 10 seconds more firing time than with 6.
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Almost only take the 4 gun package in the Delta. And the heavier 6gun on the jug. Ill BnZ or if im low i like to stay fast and slash in and out of the furball. like a horizontal BnZ with occasional vertical moves. but as of late im back in my lovely B38 its an addiction. Im no "Good" pilot by any standards but i went 23-4 with 1 assist yesterday in the 38 for me it was a good day.
Dave thanks for the tips i might start flying the pony more now