Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: darkzking on February 05, 2015, 02:45:31 PM
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The ways of Turn fighting A6ms Brews Spits in my p39 are not working how do I E-fight these planes (raynos E-fighting consist of shoot pull up loop over shoot again run out of speed in front of their guns and die. Or in the case of spits they just climb with me.). Whenever i start a fight with an Altitude advantage i will have about a 40% Chance of killing an aircraft that is aware of my presence (although when they dive on me i have more of 60% chance at winning :lol).
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If you run out of speed(E) how are you E fighting? When E is low disengage and get more.
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If you run out of speed(E) how are you E fighting? When E is low disengage and get more.
Uh good question :lol
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The key to E fighting is flying with Trim tabs, only thing those pesky elevators are good for is bleeding much needed Energies.
In all seriousness having a button close at hand to turn auto trim off will make you alot faster to those who keep auto trim on all the time.
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I'm not an expert on E fighting but I'll give my thoughts.
E fighting against those planes in a P-39 is going to be difficult but not impossible. When you have the altitude advantage you want to use up as little of your E as possible while forcing your opponent to use up as much of his as you can. That way if you miss the shot then you can zoom climb back up to altitude with very little risk of them getting a shot on you. Make your attack run from their 6 so they are forced to pull the tightest turn to get their wingtip pointed at you (to avoid your shot and force an overshoot). If you feel like you're not going to get a good shot on them or are going to have to pull hard and waste some E to get a shot then it's best to disengage, climb, and reengage as soon as you can. It's important to be aggressive and keep the pressure up so your opponent can't regain the speed he lost avoiding your previous attack.
From an altitude disadvantage things get a little tricky as your opponent chooses when to engage. This forces you to maneuver and use up some speed to avoid his attack whether you are ready or not. If you're not very good at lining up shots on the overshoots then your first objective is to get co-alt with your opponent by either climbing up to him or him making a mistake and coming down to you. You can trick your opponent into making a mistake by "hiding" your energy. One example that I like to employ is to avoid their attack and force the overshoot. Then I'll turn back into them and make it look like I'm going to try and follow them up only I won't pull very hard on the stick. This will help save speed, but if your opponent misreads you then it'll look like to him that you are struggling to climb with him (just what he wants). You're baiting him into coming over the top and diving early by giving him what looks like what he wants, a slow stalling plane in a rope. Once you see him roll over to drop down then you pull up hard into him with your "hidden" energy and now you have forced him to come down to your altitude. If you can't trick your opponent into coming down or he won't make a mistake and come down then your only option is extend and slow climb away from him. Remember to keep a decent amount of speed so you can still maneuver and avoid your opponents attacks. You'll keep doing this until you eventually reach their altitude or they get bored and make the mistake of coming down to you.
Again, I'm no expert in the E fighting department so I might be all wrong here. This is just what I do and what has worked for me.
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.....You'll keep doing this until you eventually reach their altitude or they get bored and make the mistake of coming down to you.....
... and they almost always do both.
I have film of about a 7 minute fight where I did just that. There is nothing more satisfying than having a con with a 3k alt, 100mph advantage and a faster plane over you, and them BNZ'ing you till they get over confident and then make a mistake.
Moral of the story, don't be afraid to fight uphill. You may die a lot in the beginning. but soon you learn how to reel them in, and get the reversal.
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. . .There is nothing more satisfying than having a con with a 3k alt, 100mph advantage and a faster plane over you, and them BNZ'ing you till they get over confident and then make a mistake. . . .
And nothing more embarrassing than throwing away the advantage and loosing a fight like that. I did that a few days ago.
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And nothing more embarrassing than throwing away the advantage and loosing a fight like that. I did that a few days ago.
So have I... And you are correct it's :joystick: :x
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Some tips and tricks for E fighting in that heathen of a plane.
P.S you probably aren't going to have any fun.
1. Always climb to at least 15-20k
You will need this alt to plan strategic moves while entering the fight. Up this high you can work con's lower than you, most will not be as high as you, if they are than you can either engage and fight or many (190Ds, p51Ds, temps) will seemingly entend away and not even engage. At this alt you will be able to have a high E advantage and will be able to allow you to have a nice view of the entire fight. You can choose con's to engage without that pesky higher plane diving on you.
2. SA.
While flying that high you will have a good view of the entire fight. You will be able to see all the higher con's in the area and you can choose whether to engage or not. The key here is to: A. Not let the enemies get hire than you: B. Do not dive on lower enemies if higher con's are threatening. Always engage with higher con's first. As soon as a plane starts diving on you, you have lost the E advantage, and if he is a meanie, will bring you lower and lower until they all jump you. What you will want to do is scope the area and make sure you are on top or engaging the higher enemies until they are not a theat anymore. Then you can begin setting up attacks on lower planes.
3. Attacking enimies while being aware of SA.
Here is the tough part. Once you have decided on who to attack, which should be the highest enemy in the group BTW. You need to dive directly on top of them and attack using a downward spiral climb, dependind on the planes dives speed and compression, you may have to cut throttle some. (Attacking from the top makes it hard to avoid and some guys will not even see you). Now, you must be aware of who is around you and what kind of speed they are working with. Many times people with the E advantage will pull up and over immediately to pressure the enemy. But this is a bad decision if other con's are around and could potentially match your E. What you have to do is dive, make the shot ( do not follow if they turn) and then level out for about 7 seconds and then go into a slow climb to regian some alt. Depending on the enemies positions and con's behind them, you may want to extend climb for a ways until you are certian you are in top of all the enemies again. What you don't want to do is turn back around for for the con you just dove on immediately because all your 15K E position is toast, and if there are other con's around they will quickly match your E. The key is to stay above the enemies at all times, make your shots quickly, and then extend away and climb again till you are safe. Once you get low and see higher con's around you after multiple attack strikes you will have to get out of enemy territory and haul bellybutton until you can get out of icon range. Once they dive on you it's a whole new difficult ball game and this is where you lose the advantage.
The key to E flying is not to lose the E advantage vs the con you are attacking and the also the rest of the con's around you. You have to be going faster at low alts or be higher than them at all times to be a successful E fighter.
It is all about patients, shot placement, and getting out of icon range of higher threatening con's as you dive or get lower to to make kill shots. If you find yourself low and higher con's are threatening, you need to quickly go the other way so they don't see you and dive in you.
4. Fly with friendlies.
This is not a good plane to fly lone wolf with. It's just not. Too slow, gets picked a lot, and it doesn't turn that well. Make sure you got some friends with you to keep other cons busy. You don't want them all looking at you. Picking kills will be your best bet at getting kills and extending away safely. But DO NOT fall prey to getting low n slow trying to help a friendly.
This is why you may not have fun.
1. That plane is a crutch to shoot in. You may not make any shots on the first 5 passes, but you have to stay fast so DO NOT flip back around on them. It could get frustrating but you have to be patient. Remember, once you attempt a rope, all your E is crushed of other high planes that are on the way to engage you. You must get higher than all of them after an overshoot then you can turn back around and pick another plane to engage. It is tough in that plane because it is not fast. The more you turn back around the lower you will get. So you reallllly have to be high and fast coming back into the fight. This will take some patients.
2. It is slow, and does not turn thatwell
Which means anytime you are around and enemy you have to be going much faster than them. Getting out fights is tough in that plane. You have to dive from up high to keep speed advantage. As soon as you engage a plane longer than about 8 seconds your E will be quickly diminishing. EI, don't engage a plane for longer than 8 seconds, unless it is 1v1 and you want to battle it out. But that is risky. Also time to extend and climb with take a lot of patients after you make a shot on a plane.
3. You can't really dogfight.
It is a boring way to fly. You can't really mix it up because losing E is deadly. You gotta stay fast and stay away from planes engaging you.
E flying is all about being the engager, not the engagee.
Hope this helps.
I may have a good video from my E flying experience last month in the temp, I'll post it when I get home if I can find a good one.
<S>
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Some tips and tricks for E fighting in that heathen of a plane.
P.S you probably aren't going to have any fun.
1. Always climb to at least 15-20k
But my p39 will die from Lack of Oxygen at that alt :lol
and is this what you guys mean? http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,369520.msg4924756.html#msg4924756
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All fight are energy fights.
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All fight are energy fights.
Zactly. :aok
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All fight are energy fights.
Good point but there is a reason we use the term to differentiate fights.
In single combat with aircraft of similar performance you have a choice of the angles fight, using your energy to attain a position on the bandit's 6 for a tracking shot, or building/using an energy advantage to set up a snap shot.
With dissimilar aircraft, think Zero vs Mustang, The Zero will be the angles fighter and the Mustang will be the energy fighter because the difference in aircraft performance limits the choices available for success against an equal pilot.
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Your not gonna win an energy fight in a 39 in the MA against an A6m .. because his four mate's in LA's, Yak-3's, Niki's & Ki-84's are never far away :lol
In all seriousness you would have to have a lot of energy over your opponent because energy disapears fast in a 39, in game :frown:
Fly with trim, throttle off in turns, have good aim .. easy :D
NG :salute
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Energy is not necessarily speed though. You can e-fight a -4hog in c47 if you want... I agree with my MacAW idle, Columbo.
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Your not gonna win an energy fight in a 39 in the MA against an A6m .. because his four mate's in LA's, Yak-3's, Niki's & Ki-84's are never far away :lol
In all seriousness you would have to have a lot of energy over your opponent because energy disapears fast in a 39, in game :frown:
Fly with trim, throttle off in turns, have good aim .. easy :D
NG :salute
Flying in trim is a good idea but flying with trim makes no sense. Throttle off in turns is also questionable advice. Could you explain what you mean and why you think reducing E in an E fight is good general advice?
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Its like driving a car around a bend at speed .. what happens if you do it at full throttle? The car wants to stay in a straight line right .. The faster the speed the harder it is to turn, etc .. so you need to calculate how much speed you have and what you can do with it .. this is where judging your opponents E is imperative :)
The use of the right flap settings, trim, power setting and your speed all have a major influence on your turn :)
Also the combat trim system is designed to keep your aircraft in a straight line .. hence diving .. CT will plow you into the ground unless you disengage it and trim up :)
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Its like driving a car around a bend at speed .. what happens if you do it at full throttle? The car wants to stay in a straight line right .. The faster the speed the harder it is to turn, etc .. so you need to calculate how much speed you have and what you can do with it .. this is where judging your opponents E is imperative :)
The use of the right flap settings, trim, power setting and your speed all have a major influence on your turn :)
Also the combat trip system is designed to keep your aircraft in a straight line .. hence diving .. CT will plow you into the ground unless you disengage it and trim up :)
Your analogy is true for aircraft as long as they have wheels on the ground. Once they are flying they may turn better or worse with more thrust.
Consider my explanation of corner speed's effect on turn rate and radius in the exiting a rolling scissor ' s thread.
Combat trim is actually designed to let you fly straight and level with your stick centered. It does not prevent pulling up in a dive . Compression from high speed can fly you into the ground unless you trim up but that's not due to CT.
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Taking combat trim off in a fight and pretending you can use trim to out roll your enemy is laughable. Combat trim adjust your trim to the max potential and then re-stabalizes your plane. Turning it off leaves your plane cockeyed at certain positions in the fight which can throw you off when performing maneuvers.
This thread is about "escaping" a rolling scissors. There are only a few certainties that you could work your way out of. Those assumptions have been entertained. Either you figure out a way to use E to perform a split S to spiral climb and hope you pull off the rope, normally In faster less turnable planes. Or you break the roll into a chase and attempt to force an overshoot. Managing E, throttle, and flaps with timing of the rolls, compared to the enemies E state is what takes practice and experience to break the roll before you lose too much E.
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I am stating what works for me and if the OP wants to entertain those idea's then fantastic, if some of you want to assume its rubbish then so be it :)
As far as using CT to help in certain situations being laughable, then can I recommend you try it Demon .. you might get a surprise.
Most 1 v 1's I win .. due to techniques listed above. It works for me .. thats all I care about :)
<S>
FLS, if you take two A6m's .. one is doing 150 and the other 400 .. which one is going to turn tighter assuming they are at the same attitude?
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FLS, if you take two A6m's .. one is doing 150 and the other 400 .. which one is going to turn tighter assuming they are at the same attitude?
Why wouldn't the faster Zeke spiral climb? :D
For any given g load the faster aircraft makes a bigger turn. For any given speed the higher g load makes a tighter turn.
If your 2 A6m's are going 130mph and 180mph which one can turn faster and which one can turn tighter?
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yep, you're right and everyone else is wrong :P
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This thread is about "escaping" a rolling scissors...
Actually that's another thread. This is the "How to fight with E" thread. ;)
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How do you escape this thread once you get in it? :bolt:
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How do you escape this thread once you get in it?
...well...I suppose you could apply the rolling scissors...?
- oldman
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Actually that's another thread. This is the "How to fight with E" thread. ;)
Oops hahaha got them mixed up.
The problem I have with turning combat trim off. Is that during a fight many will adjust trim to up elevator in order to go up more quickly in the roll around. However, once you get around the trim does not fix itself and the player couldn't possibly control the trim quickly enough while looking around and doing flaps, throttle and all that at the same time, so even if you win the rolling scissors your plane will be constantly going up as you attempt trim the plane down. This gives the opponent a couple of extra seconds to squirm away while you attempt to make an out of trim difficult shot.
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Trim doesn't improve any maneuver. It only changes the position of the stick for a given input. In other words changing the trim setting for the elevator could see you flying level with the stick back, centered, or forward, depending on your elevator trim setting. This is true if the trim is set manually or by combat trim.
When you use scaling trim can change the amount of control surface deflection from a given stick deflection. For example with default scaling moving the stick a 1/4 inch from center will give less elevator movement than moving the stick a 1/4 inch when the stick is halfway between centered and full deflection. So when your trim is changing your stick response can also be changing. In that case using Combat Trim gives you more consistent response.
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...well...I suppose you could apply the rolling scissors...?
- oldman
.....only if you are using your lift vector. :D
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Nice read .
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Trim doesn't improve any maneuver.
Under circumstances and especially with flaps down, combat trim will actually hamper some maneuvers. Good example is slow Ki-84 with fully deployed flaps. You'll have a hard time pushing nose down. That's where manual trim helps a lot. Of course, manually trimming during fight can be just one more thing that kills you. Usually you'd trim plane as neutral as possible before entering the fight, with only slight corrections during fight, if absolutely necessary.
For the most part, combat trim works just fine, but there are times (and planes) when you can really benefit from manual trim.
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Under circumstances and especially with flaps down, combat trim will actually hamper some maneuvers. Good example is slow Ki-84 with fully deployed flaps. You'll have a hard time pushing nose down. That's where manual trim helps a lot. Of course, manually trimming during fight can be just one more thing that kills you. Usually you'd trim plane as neutral as possible before entering the fight, with only slight corrections during fight, if absolutely necessary.
For the most part, combat trim works just fine, but there are times (and planes) when you can really benefit from manual trim.
Pretty much anything that uses a lot of flaps. Once the flaps come out, I find a few taps nose down trim gets me set for the stall fight most of the time.
I don't exactly understand trim modeling in the game and how it affects your maneuvers. When you're in compression, or even just in a state where controls are heavy, if you leave the stick neutral and use trim, you can pull out of a dive without touching the stick. From what I understand, that's not what would happen in the real world. Why is that and how does it affect your aircraft?
I've heard anecdotes from guys that quite know what they're doing saying BnZing at high speed, you can retain more E trimming through the zoom rather than moving the stick. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and the few times I've tried it it seemed to make no difference vs a smooth low G pullup.
Wiley.
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I will share one of my E weakness. I have a bad habit of not fully unloading when in E recovery. If I don't pay attention, the habit reappears.
I noticed too auto trim can delay unloading albeit a short time.
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I don't exactly understand trim modeling in the game and how it affects your maneuvers. When you're in compression, or even just in a state where controls are heavy, if you leave the stick neutral and use trim, you can pull out of a dive without touching the stick. From what I understand, that's not what would happen in the real world. Why is that and how does it affect your aircraft?
Aces High does not model trim tabs. Control surfaces are used instead ie elevator, ruder and ailerons. In addition to that, combat trim does not account for flaps. For example, trimming elevator up will move elevators up.
I've heard anecdotes from guys that quite know what they're doing saying BnZing at high speed, you can retain more E trimming through the zoom rather than moving the stick. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and the few times I've tried it it seemed to make no difference vs a smooth low G pullup.
Shouldn't really matter, but with some setups, like without stick scaling, you'd have finer control with trimming instead of moving stick. In 99% of the cases it makes no difference.
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Pretty much anything that uses a lot of flaps. Once the flaps come out, I find a few taps nose down trim gets me set for the stall fight most of the time.
I don't exactly understand trim modeling in the game and how it affects your maneuvers. When you're in compression, or even just in a state where controls are heavy, if you leave the stick neutral and use trim, you can pull out of a dive without touching the stick. From what I understand, that's not what would happen in the real world. Why is that and how does it affect your aircraft?
I've heard anecdotes from guys that quite know what they're doing saying BnZing at high speed, you can retain more E trimming through the zoom rather than moving the stick. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and the few times I've tried it it seemed to make no difference vs a smooth low G pullup.
Wiley.
Using trim to recover when the stick is "stuck" from compression is a real world solution.
There is no difference in drag using elevator trim instead of moving the stick. Elevator trim is just setting the elevator deflection.
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There is no difference in drag using elevator trim instead of moving the stick.
That would depend on your stick, don't you think. Your stick could be spiking ever so slightly, or your stick sensitivity is too high and you're hungover (shaky hands) and make your elevator flutter and increase the drag. :devil
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That would depend on your stick, don't you think. Your stick could be spiking ever so slightly, or your stick sensitivity is too high and you're hungover (shaky hands) and make your elevator flutter and increase the drag. :devil
It seemed too obvious to mention that moving the elevator more would have different results compared to moving it less.
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Using trim to recover when the stick is "stuck" from compression is a real world solution.
Right. But in the real world, it requires input to actually pull up as opposed to causing the aircraft to pitch all on its own, right?
Shouldn't really matter, but with some setups, like without stick scaling, you'd have finer control with trimming instead of moving stick. In 99% of the cases it makes no difference.
That sounds plausible. The way people are, if there was an actual difference somebody would have done diagrams and youtube videos by now to show it.
Wiley.
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Right. But in the real world, it requires input to actually pull up as opposed to causing the aircraft to pitch all on its own, right?
Wiley.
The trim tab provides the input.
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Right. But in the real world, it requires input to actually pull up as opposed to causing the aircraft to pitch all on its own, right?
Combat trim is less accurate at very low or very high speed, plus some planes hit the max trim sooner. So, if CT hits max negative pitch trim, and you still go faster, wing will produce more lift than CT can trim it out and plane will pitch up.
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That sounds plausible. The way people are, if there was an actual difference somebody would have done diagrams and youtube videos by now to show it.Wiley.
actually a few have, both Lephturn and Ren ( DamnedRen ) both old AH trainers have done films and diagrams and write ups in regards to setting & controlling Trim settings in Aces high as well as how the use of Combat Trim 9 CT ) affects the planes performance in the game....
I believe Lephturn's CT write up and other trim and commands write up is still on the Trainer's website...... Ren posted his trim and stick scaling write ups in here ....... all this stuff is pre 2005.... but it is findable via the Search function
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Under circumstances and especially with flaps down, combat trim will actually hamper some maneuvers. Good example is slow Ki-84 with fully deployed flaps. You'll have a hard time pushing nose down. That's where manual trim helps a lot. Of course, manually trimming during fight can be just one more thing that kills you. Usually you'd trim plane as neutral as possible before entering the fight, with only slight corrections during fight, if absolutely necessary.For the most part, combat trim works just fine, but there are times (and planes) when you can really benefit from manual trim.
I agree with bighorn, nice post!
Combat trim is less accurate at very low or very high speed, plus some planes hit the max trim sooner. So, if CT hits max negative pitch trim, and you still go faster, wing will produce more lift than CT can trim it out and plane will pitch up.
and this is correct as well!
I have often said is better to fly with no CT turned on and plane trimmed for level flight no stick inputs, with speed ( IAS ) anywhere from 275 MPH to 350 MPH depending on plane type ( spit, hurri, 109, F4U, P47, P51 etc ) thus, once you engage and begin to slow where you are near deploying flaps, you will have the ability to hold a gentle pull on your joystick to hold steady and fire, without worrying the dreaded nose bounce or the nose popping High(up) when you drop another notch of flaps..... I find it also helps me regain my E (as in speed ) once I go nose low again because I am all ready trimmed for that speed range and my aircraft is not fighting or waiting for the combat trim to adjust through the speed as it is increasing.....
YMMV
hope this helps
TC
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^^^^^ Well put Tequila :airplane:
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(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/fightwithe_zps8d124293.png~original)
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(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/fightwithe_zps8d124293.png~original)
Ya know, Arlo.... I been doing that since my Grandma ( Granny ) told me when she met Cassius clay and his Mom in a Goodwill store somewhere around Greenbrier, WV back in here early years ( she had my Mom at 43, one and only child )................
I been doing that dance for quiet a few years myself..........I just need to be at my prime on those Good days ( meaning scheduled )
but seriously, who cares as long as we're all having fun? right?
TC
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Ya know, Arlo.... I been doing that since my Grandma ( Granny ) told me when she met Cassius clay and his Mom in a Goodwill store somewhere around Greenbrier, WV back in here early years ( she had my Mom at 43, one and only child )................
I been doing that dance for quiet a few years myself..........I just need to be at my prime on those Good days ( meaning scheduled )
but seriously, who cares as long as we're all having fun? right?
TC
Exactly. :) :cheers: