Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FLOOB on February 15, 2015, 04:17:37 AM
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Clovis first theory or solutrean hypothesis?
Discuss.
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Yes pies do in fact change time and motion :old:
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I'm going with Bering Sea land bridge
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Clovis first theory or solutrean hypothesis?
Discuss.
In this debate, I always defend the side of Soul Train.
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Most-recent DNA testing of Kennewick Man will soon be done. That will be interesting to see.
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:bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead HUH???? :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
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:bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead HUH???? :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
Type "solutrean hypothesis" into Google.
Press "Enter" key.
Click on 1st search result.
Read 1st sentence.
This way, through the expediture of about 15 seconds, you won't have to bang your head on the wall. :aok
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Let's take the train to Australia.
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Type "solutrean hypothesis" into Google.
Press "Enter" key.
Click on 1st search result.
Read 1st sentence.
This way, through the expediture of about 15 seconds, you won't have to bang your head on the wall. :aok
Thank you sir.. :aok
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In 1973 I helped on a Western Maryland dig of a supposed 7000 year old indian camp site with the UM Archeology Dept.. The stone tools we pulled out of the ground did not match what was expected for the Paleo-Indian period. Below are two pictures. The first being clovis points and to a degree what would have influenced the locals. Then the second are Solutrean from Europe. I pulled a duplicate to the lower long leaf shaped point out of the ground and was told not to talk about it. I never saw any documentation of that 9 inch point in the subsequent papers released about the dig.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Arch1_clovispoints2.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Solutrean_tools_22000_17000_Crot_du_Charnier_Solutre_Pouilly_Saone_et_Loire_France.jpg)
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In 1973 I helped on a Western Maryland dig of a supposed 7000 year old indian camp site with the UM Archeology Dept.. The stone tools we pulled out of the ground did not match what was expected for the Paleo-Indian period. Below are two pictures. The first being clovis points and to a degree what would have influenced the locals. Then the second are Solutrean from Europe. I pulled a duplicate to the lower long leaf shaped point out of the ground and was told not to talk about it. I never saw any documentation of that 9 inch point in the subsequent papers released about the dig.
Awesome! We have someone here with personal experience and expertise! :aok
I'm suspicious of some of the criticisms of the Solutrean Hypothesis because they are based on using fallacies as an argument technique, and thus are lame arguments. Someone finds a non-Clovis spear point. The criticism then isn't of the form "Well, it looks non-Clovis, but it actually is Clovis because of X." The criticism is of the form, "That's not mainstream, and so I don't believe it" (of course, it could still be true), "I refute your suggestion because I can't think of a way for people to get from Europe to North America back then" (of course, that doesn't mean there wasn't a way -- even some that aren't that hard to think of but are ignored by the critic), "They didn't influence the Clovis culture" (of course Clovis culture people could have come in from Siberia and wiped out the earlier Solutreans), etc.
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One of the stark arguments for solutrean influence has to do with deep water dredging off Virginia and the Maryland Eastern shore where mammoth bones and teeth have been pulled up with solutrean influenced points and tools. At the time of the solutreans that area of ocean was exposed and mammoths roamed the dry land. Funny how Ice Ages lower sea levels. So the Atlantic from both ends would have been a bit shorter due to the larger dry land mass at both sides of the Atlantic.
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I've read that analysis of the solutrean laurel leaf blade dredged up with the 22,000 year old mammoth bones indicates that it was made from stone in France. If that turns out to be true that's kind of a cincher. I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that people came to the americas from more than one direction when you consider that stone age man was able to populate every part of the planet. There are human settlement sites in Chile that date 14,000 years ago. In Snowmass Colorado there is some tenuous evidence of human activity 40,000 years ago. There are multiple examples of human settlements in the americas that predate any clovis tools ever found.
One thing that bothers me is that the media hears of the solutrean hypothesis and in their mind that becomes "Europeans Came to America First!" and they run with it. What people don't realize is that twenty thousand years ago Europe had not been invented yet. Once you accept that europe and asia are not two seperate places, then really it just becomes a question of, when stone age man came to america did they only travel in one direction?
And then there's the genetic testing. I don't understand what they think this will prove. For one thing it relies on modern genetic distribution as a basis of comparison, and it's dependent on the presumption that the genes of the caveman being tested survived and were passed on to living populations. And on top of all this, the current thinking is that humans in eurasia didn't begin to diversify genetically untill about 20,000 years ago.
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Most American Indians have tales of white giants who they fought with that were cannibalistic. Recently a judge ruled that the Smithsonian had to release freedom of information requests about destruction of thousands of skeletons from all over the U.S. from burial sights that pre dated the local Indians. On average the skeletons were of humans 7-12 feet tall. The reason the judge ruled on this, is the grandson of a Smithsonian employee, who took a femur home to preserve it, walked into that judges court with it as proof. The femur was from a 9ft tall man.
Documentation exists since the 1600's describing the burial sights and bones. George Washington and Lincoln made references to them along with numerous other reliable persons through out American history. After the Smithsonian was created, the guiding group believed in Darwinism and that man came over the Alaska land bridge. So most skeletons found were either sent to Washington or requested sent to the Smithsonian by Washington. Then destroyed. Some speculated the Smithsonian was worried the giants represented proof of Nephilim and wanted to cover that up.
If they had not destroyed the skeletons on a regular basis, the old Smithsonian building would be filled with skeletons of giant people today recovered from all over the US.
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http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp (http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp)
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http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp (http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp)
dude, you can't believe everything you find on the internet.
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Bustr tell us you were joking and forget what happened.
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What .... are .... cantaloupes, Alex.
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http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp (http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp)
There is a group in the US that really has it in for the Smithsonian, especially with anything having to do with ancient peoples settling in north America. As far as I can tell it has something to do with the Smithsonian suppressing evidence that there was an ancient northern tribe.
:noid :noid :noid
Strange stuff, comes up in main stream venues from time to time in the US.
:eek: :eek:
Makes it kind of hard to read and process archaeological research b/c in the back of my mind I keep asking myself who wrote this. :mad:
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All stories have some basis of fact often far removed from reality. American Indians seem to have similar legends about peoples of large stature.
The red haired cannibal giants in Nevada and near Humbolt lake. More likely a now extinct large red haired people in that area. The paiute oral legends state they were cannibals who killed and ate the paiutes. There is the Lovelock cave in Nevada.
The oral tradition chronicled can be found at amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0874172527?ie=UTF8&tag=stockmarketselec&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0874172527
Now back to the Solutreans........
1917 Geological Report for Florida. Pleistocene era human remains were found near Vero Beach. This has been recently backed up from other findings. Would seem probable that the bones could be from solutrean Europeans.
1917 Geological Report.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00000001/00009/6j
Recent articles.
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/an-update-on-vero-beach-man/
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/jovp/2012/00000032/00000003/art00016
http://www.veronews.com/news/vero_beach/spotlight/ancient-vero-bone-to-get-dna-test-at-smithsonian-lab/article_4fc38954-e498-11e0-a799-001a4bcf6878.html
Even Wiki which seems to be dealing with this neutrally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vero_man
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my wife and I watched this on America Unearthed last night. that guy has some very interesting posits and theories. the evidence that he presents most definitely suggests world wide travel.
think I might set DVR so I don't miss this one.
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What does Don Corneius have to do with this? Oh that's Soul Train. My bad! :D
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The Soul Train don't need no defence, baby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBKi4MEPBsQ
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While I still believe in the Bering land bridge, for arguments sake, what's to say that peoples didn't migrate over an Atlantic land bridge. There is geological evidence that Artic glaciers came down and covered areas like Great Britain and portions of mainland Europe, and North America. A land bridge could have been formed between Great Britain, to Iceland to Greenland. From there North America is just a hop skip and a jump.
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Modern archeology\anthropology\paleontology is about funding, politics, orthodoxy and ego. Worse than these forums.
The Solutrean theory if correct, dry's up PBS specials, summer fun in the woods, paychecks, fame, book deals, tenure and scientific authority for a lot of people who other wise have to get real jobs while watching their publications loose validity.
All of the camps involved on the status quo side are smart enough to prove the Solutrean migration to the east coast is possible. Once they do that, they stop being the status quo.
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Ok, somebody Google "Windover Site" in central Florida on the East coast near Vero Beach. DNA was recovered from brains, yes, brains that were found to be 7000 years old.
The DNA from the brains of 4 individuals disclosed definite European lineage in 2 persons and different, but still European lineage in the other 2 persons. Also discovered was textile remains made from local fiber.
Clearly the Americas were settled at many times by many different groups.
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Ok, somebody Google "Windover Site" in central Florida on the East coast near Vero Beach. DNA was recovered from brains, yes, brains that were found to be 7000 years old.
The DNA from the brains of 4 individuals disclosed definite European lineage in 2 persons and different, but still European lineage in the other 2 persons. Also discovered was textile remains made from local fiber.
Clearly the Americas were settled at many times by many different groups.
Thanks for the reference.
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Ok, somebody Google "Windover Site" in central Florida on the East coast near Vero Beach. DNA was recovered from brains, yes, brains that were found to be 7000 years old.
The DNA from the brains of 4 individuals disclosed definite European lineage in 2 persons and different, but still European lineage in the other 2 persons. Also discovered was textile remains made from local fiber.
Clearly the Americas were settled at many times by many different groups.
Wow, very intresting read!
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Considerably newer but still interesting.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Miami_Circle_20110307.jpg/800px-Miami_Circle_20110307.jpg
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Miami_Circle_20110307.jpg/800px-Miami_Circle_20110307.jpg)
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http://www.angelfire.com/va/mobjackrelics/trimble/ttasolutrean.html (http://www.angelfire.com/va/mobjackrelics/trimble/ttasolutrean.html)
Have a look at some Solutrean-like finds from the collection of the late Mark Small
The smaller four examples of indented base Solutrean-like specimens were recovered along a shore already long known for producing paleo artifacts and pleistocene era fossils
The larger two were recovered by dredge just about 6-8 miles off-shore of this beachfront, along what was once the banks of the Susquehanna and Rappahannock River's sunken channels
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I liked Soultrain :old:
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I believe that's written "The Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oulllllllllllllll Traaaaaaaaaain".
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Before decent agriculture was established, man lived off of what he hunted and gathered. Being tied to one location was only a benefit if that location had what was needed. As timber and other natural resources get depleted in an area, going over the next mountain or body of water often revealed better conditions.
Combine that with the natural drive some humans have to explore and discover, and it makes perfect sense to me that people got around more than many people would think. Todays human looks at a long trip in the wilderness as a hardship because life is easier at home with food, warmth, clean water, etc all close at hand. Back then, landing on a beach in a new land with abundant game, uncut timber, untouched water supplies and only a relative handful of people, and suddenly life on the road is better than life at home. Throw in some motivation added by a few years of drought, extreme cold or unfriendly neighbors, and some traveling looks pretty good.
If a few Inuit kayaked from Labrador to Scotland in recorded history, I imagine that in the thousands of years prior to that the connection was made more than once both ways. Once on a new land, its pretty easy to follow coast lines and cover a lot of ground.
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Solutrean peoples are believed by some to have crossed the Med from Africa; It is shown that several migrations were undertaken over time, and that these disparate groups found their own individual niches. Recognizing that while each group practiced the Solutrean lithic technologies, not one group among them utilized the entire known assemblage of Solutrean technologies. Can it be that environment-adaptive strategies played a part in this?
Could it be that more than just one group of Solutrean peoples made their way across the ice, the Spanish Solutrean possibly leading the way?
In practice, these divergent Solutrean assemblages could have sought out independent niches, and from an already diverse number of assemblages there evolved further divergent lithic traditions, thus founding the typologies now well recognized among archaeologists and collectors here today.
Outre’ pass flaking technology as a cultural tradition is only found in European Solutrean, the Solutrean-like artifacts found here, and Clovis.
While not conclusive of Solutrean being ancestral to Clovis, the suggestion is that TWO independent re-inventions of Solutrean technology occurred appears highly questionable at best given the circumstances:
The first re-invention occurring thousands of miles across an ocean At THE SAME TIME as the Solutrean culture flourished in Europe
....and the second re-invention occurring some 10,000 years later, in the same place the first re-invention occurred.
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Interesting bit of info for researchers, courtesy Dr Darrin Lowery
https://www.academia.edu/11753423/Cinmar_Site_Investigations_2013
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Of the six Solutrean artifacts discovered in the late Mark Small collection, the alrgest two have been sold for $15,000. The remaining four are projectile points belonging to the Solutrean tradition
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Clovis first theory or solutrean hypothesis?
Discuss.
The shortest distance between two points is not cutting across the grass. - Camp Lejeune 1990.
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On average the skeletons were of humans 7-12 feet tall.
Dam Vikings!
:x
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Who cares... The Europeans won, turned into Americans and keep on winning. Everything and everyone else is, well... History.
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I liked Soultrain :old:
Yukon Cornelius was a great host. :)
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"Everybody get you hands up and put them together for ... ~Don Cornelius~"
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TubLIWHPcUo/TthHnZ7ylcI/AAAAAAAAAdo/ljDMxf5bh2M/s1600/Rudolph_Yukon_Character.jpg)
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He searched all over the north pole, looking for gold records.
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Randall Carlson talking about very interesting stuff.
https://youtu.be/R31SXuFeX0A
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Randall Carlson talking about very interesting stuff.
https://youtu.be/R31SXuFeX0A
Interesting guy.
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is there anyway you guys could sum up the key points, maybe add a time stamp? 2.5 hours is a long time you know.
:pray
:salute
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If you watch the first 20 minutes you should get the gist of it, also you can skip the first 5 minutes it's just ads.
But what about the future?
https://youtu.be/Por6XAkDSBo